Com Question

[Simon T]

First post so here goes...

sorry if this is covered elsewhere but I searched, honest!

I have just bought a PA28 140 that doesn't have an intercom. I understand that it is permissible to replace the radio/com myself, would this also include fitting an intercom such as a sigtronix.

Simon

[Jan Olieslagers]

What registry? (NabcXY? G-xxxx? ...? ) What regulations? (Experimental/homebuilt? Certified?)

The harsh facts should however leave room for a warmhearted "welcome to this forum" !

[Big Pistons Forever]

You have 2 choices

1) have an avionics shop install a panel mount intercom

2) buy a portable intercom. These units connect to the existing radio jacks and are not considered installed equipment.

Advantages of 1: clean and neet, intercom is integrated into radio install.
Disadvantages: expensive

Advantages of 2: inexpensive
Disadvantages: the cockpit looks looks an explosion in a spaghetti factory with wires running all over the place. There is no place to plug in the intercom in a older Cherokee so you need to run the intercom off a battery

[piperboy84]

If it's N reg and you own it and hold an FAA license this is item 31 of the 32 things you are allowed to do yourself.

Removing and replacing self-contained, front instrument panel-mounted navigation and communication devices that employ tray-mounted connectors that connect the unit when the unit is installed into the instrument panel, (excluding automatic flight control systems, transponders, and microwave frequency distance measuring equipment (DME). The approved unit must be designed to be readily and repeatedly removed and replaced, and pertinent instructions must be provided. Prior to the unit's intended use, an operational check must be performed in accordance with the applicable sections of part 91.

[Simon T]

Wow, friendly bunch...

Thanks for the kind words.

Time to go elsewhere for help and advice methinks

See ya

Simon

[India Four Two]

Hey Simon T,

Don't go. Hang around and you will learn a lot. Ignore the curmudgeons.

I42
(another Simon)

[A and C]

There are a lot of people on this forum who are so far up themselfs it is hard to understand why ?

Pirke is new but the only two posts I have seen from this individual have been at the very least unhelpfull.

The idiots are outnumbered out roughly 2:1 by people who are helpfull.

Back to the subject, Big Pistons as usual offers sound advice that I would agree with wholeheartedly.

[Pirke]

A and C, without any information on how the plane is registered it's impossible to answer what is allowed and what is not.

And I truly wonder if he did any research before buying if you buy a plane and after that start to think about how to operate it.

I met a guy who bought a nice twin without engines, not knowing the price of an IO540... He simply assumed he could afford it and he assumed he got a nice deal. Then he was very surprised that the engines were a multiple of what he paid for the plane itself which he obviously couldn't afford. These people exist... And more than I'd like to know.

[phiggsbroadband]

.
Piperboy84... you say....
Removing and replacing self-contained, front instrument panel-mounted navigation and communication devices that employ tray-mounted connectors


This I take to mean that you can slide in or out any equipment that uses a tray....
However, I think the tray needs to be fitted by a qualified technician in the first place.



Also, from memory, an intercom is not a tray mounted piece of kit?
.

[mikehallam]

You are a mean & cliquey lot.

The poor guy is obviously in the UK, 99% sure to be G registered and he's likely got himself a nice properly equipped a/c, only wants to know if adding an intercomm is O.K.

Could be the radio has that facility or a plug in as mentioned above would do the job.

Happy New Year to everyone,

mike hallam, England

[A and C]

I am going to take a guess that your aircraft is also lacking an 8.33 radio.

Any decisions on Avionic changes need to incorporate changes in the other parts of the Avionic system for economic reasons.

[Jan Olieslagers]

@Simon T: it wouldn't be nice on you to go off without having supplied the information that is really required for a useful answer. Even if there are some curmudgeons resident, there also are some people that genuinely want to be of help - do give them a chance!

[Crash one]

All the first reply needed was to ask for further information and the reason why.
Happy new year everyone.

[9 lives]

Simon, Welcome. You were rudely treated without cause. Please give the benefit of the doubt to many very good posters here.

Your question is fair, in the following context:

The owner pilot may be permitted to replace one comm for another - in the tray. If there is zero wiring change, or work with tools behind the panel, a simple swap of one for another in the same tray is usually okay. You will find that there are "newer" comms, which are designed to slide into older trays. But, some homework will be required on your part with this, and your question does not provide enough information for anyone willing to help you here.

Sigtronics does make a battery powered plug in only intercom, and yes, you can install that too. But anything which involves a wiring change behind the panel will have to be accomplished by an avionics shop, unless the aircraft is non certified. BPF has summed it up nicely.

Welcome to general aviation - lots of really nice, helpful people, and a few others too....

[Simon T]

Thanks for the response, that was all I needed :)

Simon

[piperboy84]

Simon, if you have to go the trouble of paying for an intercom to be installed you may want to look at installing a PS Engineering PAR 200 audio panel it has an top notch IC with an integrated 8.33 com radio , Bluetooth p, monitor mode etc

Edit to add: it's kind of strange that Piper put out a Warrior in the 1960/70's without some kind of intercom or at least wired for one, even base models were pretty well appointed back then, I had a 151 which was built the first year after they stopped making the 140, it was VFR but had a 4 place intercom, even had a wing leveler.

[wood73]

don't mean to be confrontational, but were some people actually born knowing everything?
I am also new to aviation and learn a lot from this forum but I don't know everything and should I need an answer I would ask, as I imagine everyone on this forum has at some point.
I read a lot that there are no stupid questions, yet I continually see poster's questions being mocked with stupid answers.
I realise that some you are mighty sky gods, but where did you start?

[Pilot DAR]

Personally, I started many decades ago, flying C 150's and I still do. Since, I have been privileged enough to fly other types as well. The few sky gods here (and there are a few by my standards), are polite, helpful, and reserved. Others of us are not at all sky gods, just some have been flying for quite a while, and picked up some wisdom along the way.

yet I continually see poster's questions being mocked with stupid answers

Aside from the very occasional bit of light hearted joking around, mocking, and similar noninclusive behaviour, is not welcomed at PPRuNe. Feel free to report posts which you feel are offensive.

[wood73]

Apologies, I know there are many on here that are very knowledgeable, but there are a few that assume since they were born knowing it all, everyone else must do also!

There were replies to this thread (which appear to have disappeared) which were less than helpful shall we say, If I know the answer to a question I will reply, if I don't I wont, simple as that.

To reply with comments like 'if you don't know you shouldn't be buying, owning, flying etc.' are about as helpful as a chocolate teapot!

I have seen some post's where even I, as a beginner know the answer, but everyone had to start somewhere, and nobody decided 'since I know everything there is to know about aviation, I'll learn to fly!'

It is really off putting when somebody asks a question to see replies that to me say, you don't know enough so go away!

[wood73]

I wouldn't go as far as to say most are offensive, more of a condescending nature, which I feel put people off asking questions.

We can all learn something new from even the most routine of questions and answers, and if it makes for safer pilots then it can only be a good thing and the more topics that are covered the better.

[Pilot DAR]

We can all learn something new from even the most routine of questions and answers, and if it makes for safer pilots then it can only be a good thing and the more topics that are covered the better.

Absolutely!

Break...

No problem Crash One :)

[150 Driver]

Simon,

Welcome both to PPRune and aircraft owner$hip !

I can't answer the question, but can comment on PPRune as a relative newbie.

When posting on this forum, it is like walking into a bar on a Friday night at 21.30 and saying 'I've just bought a [delete as appropriate] Porsche/Ferrari/Lambourghini/Ford Focus. Anyone got any views on that ?'

You know what will happen in that situation - If you're lucky someone will know someone on the design/testing team, someone will work for a dealership, someone will have rebuilt one from scratch, someone will have driven one for 20 years. Then again, someone will have watched a Top Gear review and will base their response on what Clarkson said, and someone will have known someone who's second cousin once removed's best friend's sister in law had one and experienced nothing but trouble. And that doesn't count the drunk at the end of the bar...

Not suggesting that any PPRuners fall into the latter category BTW :)

In real life we learn to filter out the true experts to ignore the bull:mad:, PPRune is no different.

Also worth bearing in mind that in PPRune, just as in real life, sometimes the best advice will come from the grumpy old git halfway through his second pint who has seen it all before.:=

Lastly, no matter what you fly (and I speak as a Cessna 150 owner !) you will find warm welcomes and positive comments on your plane wherever you have the privilege of landing.

Good luck, many happy landings with your new toy.

[9 lives]

And as 150 driver has nicely demonstrated, you don't have to be an old time pilot owner, to have some good insight as to what is going on....

[Simon T]

Yep, this true but I find that in bar you can land one on anyone that's particularly obnoxious :}

Its a bit like road rage, some guys are very 'brave' when they think they can get away with it and say things they would not have the nerve to say if it was F2F

Off for a cheeky flight now whilst the weather is good.

S

[Rod1]

Simon T

Welcome!

As has been mentioned all radios will have to be upgraded (replaced) to 8.33 by the end of 2017. Several of the new 8.33 radios (eg Trig) have built in intercoms. Assuming you are on the G reg C of A you could well be better off changing the radio now and getting the intercom included.

Had you been on a Permit to fly you could have done all the work yourself and just got it inspected and signed off.

Rod1

[9 lives]

they think they can get away with it and say things they would not have the nerve to say if it was F2F

And that's the key here. Why say (write) anything that you would not say face to face? Are we not here to enjoy a common past time here?

Happily, unlike anonymous traffic, where there's never a cop when you need one, the mods are watching here...

Enjoy your flight Simon, my nice weather was yesterday, I landed on the ice of the local frozen lake. Last night and this morning, 7 inches of snow, so that's that until I plow my runway....

[thing]

Welcome to Pprune Simon.

And that doesn't count the drunk at the end of the bar...

How come I don't get a say?

[GBEBZ]

Just bought a plane eh?

My advice - start saving and don't believe anything the salesman told you!

Dont skimp on avionics - they might just get you out the pooh one day. (ok ok so an intercom is a "luxury" and can be done cheaply :-))

I just spent £22+k on new avionics for my PA28 I bought in October 2014. Full digital IFR kit, new AI, new Intercom, new Audio box, New Garmin 430W new Garman flip-flop com/nav, new digital transponder, new DME, repositioned ADF, new headphone jacks in all 4 places etc etc etc... Avionics almost worth more than the plane now!

Bournemouth Avionics has my vote for anything you need Com replacement related. Brian did a great job.

Now I'm all 8.33khz compat, I can trust my instruments (instead of the failing old ones) and just need a second Altimeter (later in the year) and then fully airways compatible :)

Ownership is great, but sure is not cheap :)

[piperboy84]

GEBEZ

I'm in the process of upgrading my panel as funds allow, if I may ask you some questions regarding what drove certain decisions,

1. Why a NEW 430 as opposed to its replacement the 650.
2. Is the COM part of the 430 8.33 spacing ready/equipped.
3. Why keep the ADF ? Do you use it much ?
4. Is a second altimeter mandatory for the airways , does the waas equipped GPS (with Baro)not count as a substitute

Thanks

[GBEBZ]

Its G B E B Z :) :) NOT GEBEZ :)

1) Cost, and have you ever tried using a touch screen in slight turbulence? :) I decided I did not want a touch screen and that swayed the decision. The cost is not much different nowadays.

2) Yes

3) I like to, I have an IR(R) (IMC) Rating, I have used the ADF a few times for fun at Yeovil, and for procedural ILS at Bournemouth. Im sad I know, I enjoy doing this kind of thing for fun :)

4) Im not sure to be honest. I would need to check. But then again a second static sourced Baro Altimeter is never a bad thing to have :)
Im doing my ATPL(A) for fun (!!) so wanted a plane I could trust and enjoy.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t34.0-12/967929_10153447374994148_1501027942_n.jpg?oh=cf83aa243550795 fc9380c97aefe1bc9&oe=54AAD4C9&__gda__=1420495337_dffde2ff7c6585400f418fa1b970903c

[piperboy84]

G B E B Z

Thanks for the reply, as I head down the path of equipping for IFR it interesting to hear the logic behind the panel config, especially from someone whose written such an eye watering cheque,

I also recently completed my IFR and Commercial rating and am starting my flight instructor rating training in a fortnight, all for fun also.

Re pic, is the unit below the 430 a 250 gps? Was that in the panel originally or was it an add during the upgrade

[GBEBZ]

GNC255A NAV/COM Flip Flop
GTX328 Mode S Transponder

Before the upgrade it had a KNS80 RNAV box.

The only thing still in the panel from before the upgrade - but moved sideways - is the ADF.

BEFORE photo: http://cl.ly/image/2R071I232c0h

Note the old kit was also NON FM Immune - which means pointless and cannot be used for approaches in IMC - like I said, never trust a salesman when he says "fully ifr capable" cause he doesn't have a clue!

[piperboy84]

New panel looks great, that is a huge upgrade,

Added question, was the new dme mandatory or could the Gps substitute

[thing]

I am liking your panel muchly GBEBZ. I'm also glad that there's someone else out there that likes shooting approaches for fun.

[A and C]

You seem obsessed with replacing everything with GPS data, over reliance on one system is unwise as a single point failure could result in no IFR approach capability.

If the aircraft was set up without DME or ADF the failure of partial failure of the GPS system ( RAIM failing to make IFR quality) would severely limit your options.

Almost all ILS approaches in Europe have ditched the markers and require DME as do most VOR approaches, at the very least no DME increases the MDA of VOR & NDB aproaches.

I know that some airfields are able to give you radar fixes to do the system error checks at the FAF but these are few and far between.

My view is that the Avionic set up in GBEBZ has some very clear thinking behind it and has the maximum system redundancy for the least cost. ( also all the equipment will integrate fully with the G500 system should the future bring a glass cockpit upgrade).

My opinion is not based on the " shooting approaches for fun" point of view. It is based on the point of veiw of someone who has to do this on a daily basis taking into account what I would want fitted to the aircraft.

The only comment about equipment choice I would make is that the future product support of the GTN650/750 is likely to be better however this potential problem is ten to fifteen years in the future at the very minimum.

[GBEBZ]

My view is that the Avionic set up in GBEBZ has some very clear thinking behind it and has the maximum system redundancy for the least cost.

Awwww shucks... That means a lot thanks :)

To be honest, I also have iPad, Skydemon (who doesnt!) and a iPhone in the plane should the worse day happen to me.

The reason I had to add another DME box is that the old KNS80RNAV box used to have the DME as part of that, so when removing that I needed to install a new DME or lose that facility - DME is still very much used in aviation (even bigger planes use it).

Even "shooting approaches for fun" requires reliable trustworthy kit :)

I take your point about the long term support - but think that might be someone else's problem in 10 years :)

[POBJOY]

A simple two place i-com is the solution (plug in)
They have an internal batt or can be run off external supply.
No need for them to look out of place or messy with velcro and tie wraps.
HM supplies or even e-bay
Always nice to have a radio independent of all other equipment,as in this rather cluttered world clear reliable comms no bad thing.
PP

[A and C]

The bigger aircraft use DME as part of the system redundancy the Boeing 737-800 has five !

Two are crew controlled, the other three search out the best DME stations for position fixing ( data from all five is used) this is part of the way that the FMC assures the navigation quality of the two GPS units and maintains the system accuracy when the GPS system quality falls below IFR limits.

What the Avionic fit in GBEBZ enables you to do is exactly the same ( if a little less automatic) you can continue IFR flight safely if the GPS fails.

[Rod1]

Any reason for going with a GTX328 Mode S which does not support Extended Squitter?

Rod1

[GBEBZ]

Hi Rod1

Extended Squitter? Mainly because I don't believe I need one, well not until t least 2020 :)

The GTX 328 is IFR certified for aircraft operating under 15,000 feet and with a true airspeed of under 175 knots. - thats me :)

Rod1 - I have read your 2009 forum posts over on the flyer.co.uk forums, banging on about not fitting the 328 and the CAA advising that then, and here we are in 2015 and there is still confusion over when/if ES is actually going to be needed for private/non-commercial flights outside airways :)

*If* and *when* needed I'll upgrade again - isnt that what life is all about :) :-)

Common Questions | ADS-B Academy | Garmin (http://www.garmin.com/us/intheair/ads-b/seven-questions)
What is an extended squitter? | ADS-B Academy | Garmin (http://www.garmin.com/us/intheair/ads-b/squit)

Europe — The European Commission recently announced a delay in the deadline for aircraft operators to outfit their aircraft with ADS-B Out equipment. The original compliance dates to operate in European ADS-B airspace were Jan. 8, 2015 for new aircraft and Dec. 7, 2017 for aircraft needing retrofit installations. The new compliance dates are June 8, 2016 for new aircraft and June 7, 2020 for aircraft needing retrofits.

Anyway I've hijacked this thread enough now, any further comments can be emailed me direct :)

Kindest regards
Phil.

[Rod1]

"banging on about not fitting the 328"

You have probably read my articulate in flyer about collision avoidance as well? First use of ES in UK airspace should be approved within the next 6 months via NATS, expect a considerable increase in usage and advantages over the next few years.

Rod1

[GBEBZ]

And I'm sure just cause CAA/NATS approve something everyone will rush out and upgrade right away right? I doubt it.

TCAS in all GA Flying School planes? I doubt it.

Yes all these technological advantages are amazing, and yes, if I was buying a brand new plane in 5 years I would hope it had all this, and yes I hope all the usage increases, however retrofitting a 30 year old PA28 one doesn't need to be 5-10 years ahead of the approval of new technologies...

Things don't tend to move very fast in aviation legislation...

Remember, all you need is a time piece and a map and a magnetic compass to legally fly :) (I know some idiot who has also ditched all this and "claims" his iPhone has a time/compass/Skydemon and so is legal carrying just his iPhone ... I disagree but hey, its his life!)

[Rod1]

"And I'm sure just cause CAA/NATS approve something everyone will rush out and upgrade right away right? I doubt it. "

Depends what is required to "upgrade". If you have ES (supported by just about all Mode S transponders except Garmin as standard) then the upgrade is an RS232 cable. If you have Garmin then you are right, not many will scrap a new 328 to upgrade to an ES unit costing about the same (or less) as the 328 did. Personally, I already have the cable in place but have the com port disabled on my EFIS.

Rod1

[GBEBZ]

Rod1

Reading a lot of your posts you always advice against Garmin, you always promote others, seems to me you have some kind of other agenda...

Ahhh the trusted RS232 connector - a 1962 invention...

Some would say: In a perfect world we would all have SSR/ADS-B/ES/TCAS/GPWS/GPS in every rust bucket spam can...

Then others would say: **** that I just want to fly.

Then others would say: **** that I dont want to be seen.

There are other threads (FLYER Forums ? View topic - The need to speak. (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=93076)) where 11 pages of people saying they do/dont even bother talking to allow others to know their intentions! Some aviators don't even carry radios.

Personally, I talk, I'm seen on SSR, I'm current and I'm legal :-)

I say each to their own. I'm happy, for now, with the kit I researched, got advice for, had installed, and use.

Thus ends my contribution here in someone elses thread :-)

Kindest regards
Phil.

[Rod1]

"Reading a lot of your posts you always advice against Garmin, you always promote others, seems to me you have some kind of other agenda... "

Not Garmin generally - just Garmin transponders with no ES and therefore no cost effective ADS-B solution. I guess it could also be said I am quite pro Trig. Trig is British and I have fitted quite a few now with no issues. The Trig built Bendix King KT-74 looks good. No personal experience of it but an interesting bit of kit;

KT 74 - BendixKing by Honeywell (http://www.bendixking.com/Products/Communications-Navigation-Identification/Transponders/KT-74)

Same price as the 328 but with similar functionality to the 330 ES.

Rod1

[piperboy84]

Trig is British and I have fitted quite a few now with no issues. The Trig built Bendix King KT-74 looks good. No personal experience of it but an interesting bit of kit;

Got to admire a small company like Trig making such good kit that the big guys Bendix and PS engineering have adopted the products and stuck their badge on them.

[Whopity]

I have just bought a PA28 140 that doesn't have an intercom.That was fairly normal for PA28-140s however; the Intercom function was built into one of the radios. So long as you used identical headsets it worked perfectly adequately.

[Simon T]

After talking to avionics eng I have decided to have a sigtonics intercom fitted for now. I would like to upgrade to a gns430 but that would double the value of my aeroplane so it will have to wait a few months till I've got the race car sorted for the season :)

Thanks for the advice about the question, and, to ignore the less helpful comments

Simon

[A and C]

Bendix king have been forced to look to the likes of Trig because the corporate bean counters at honnywell have with the lack of foresight that only bean counters can have starved the GA part of Bendix king of development money. Anyone with talent and the drive to get on simply walked across the road in Olathe KS to the Garmin factory and found a better job.

The Trig / PS engineering tie up is far more of a joint venture, both Trig & PS engineering are very much at the top of their respective parts of the Avionic business and have got together to offer a very good product that brings the strengths of both companies to the market.

SimonT I am pleased that after such a poor start on this forum you found a solution to your problem, the Sigtronics intercom is a reliable unit ( I have two of them ) and is a cost effective way to go, for audio Quality it is not up to the PS engineering standards but will do the job to a reasonable standard untill you are ready to move on.

Whopity The intercom function was never built into early PA28's It was a lash up that used the radio's audio amp for a job that it was never intended to do hence the need to have matched headsets, it had permenantly live microphones, no squelch and appalling audio quality. In my opinion it was responsable for adding an hour or two to each PPL course due to the poor level of communication between instructor and student. Having been on both sides of the cockpit with this system I was more than pleased when my employer finaly fitted the sigtronics intercom and I could communicate clearly with my students.

[Rod1]

If you were interested in the ADS-B side - the trial of ADS-B out is now GO:ok:

FLYER Forums ? View topic - General Aviation ADS-B Trial in Southern England (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=93283&p=1341349#p1341349)

Rod1

[150 Driver]

Simon, technically I'm not sure it doubles the value of your aircraft, just the cost :sad: