Landing at closed aerodromes

[Maulkin]

Hi all,

I tried to search for this, but couldn't find any info in the forums.

Tomorrow, I'm meant to be doing my first land away at Peterborough Conington (EGSF), but I checked the NOTAMs and it seems to be shut. I'm just wondering, what's the status of landing at closed ATZs?

The other option is Sywell (EGBK) which seems open, but no AFIS. I'll check with the CFI (who's instructing me tomorrow) but was just wondering what the actual procedure is. Can you not land? Or is it safety calls on Safetycom, or what?

Thanks,
Neil

[foxmoth]

Many airfields will not allow out of hours, some will. You need permission to land - that does not mean on the radio but from the "landowner" this can be a case of phoning up the day before or you may need to sign some sort of indemnity. If they have a frequency then the normal thing is to make blind calls on the normal frequency.
Having said that I will be surprised as a student if your instructors agrees to you doing a land away into a field with no services!

[ChickenHouse]

If an airfield is officially closed, its existance ceased - there is no longer any landing site. You could do a safety landing though, and if you find out after a thorough inspection everything is alright and the engine had some kind of morning sickness sticky valve, you just take off again. No permission needed, neither landing nor take off. By good airmenship safety landings cost no landing fee either. Be prepared to discuss in case of an investigation, but all due to flight safety.

But, if you know in advance by NOTAM or other, simply don't go there.

[SammySu]

Pretty sure Sywell is closed until the New Year so only available to out of hours permit holders.

[foxmoth]

If an airfield is officially closed, its existance ceased - there is no longer any landing site.

Not actually the case in the UK - whilst many will not allow landings when closed if you can get permission then you can use it.

[Maulkin]

Landing at closed aerodromes
Pretty sure Sywell is closed until the New Year so only available to out of hours permit holders.

NOTAM says it's not available for people needing licensed aerodromes, but it doesn't say its closed. Guess I'll need to give them a bell

[27/09]

Foxmoth
Having said that I will be surprised as a student if your instructors agrees to you doing a land away into a field with no services!
To what services do you refer?

[foxmoth]

Fire and rescue.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

A relative of mine is doing his PPL and if his solo cross country involved landing at a "closed" airfield I would be horrified.

[27/09]

Hell you'd have bugger all airfields to land at over here if you needed fire and rescue on site. Why the need for these services? Are they required at all airfields in the UK?

[ShyTorque]

I didn't get the impression that this is to be a solo land away! The OP wrote that the CFI was to be instructing. If if it were, someone would need to be there to sign a logbook, wouldn't they?

[Howard Long]

My understanding that as a PPL in training, there was a requirement for the airfield to have a fire service. At Fairoaks, we had to get back before 6pm when the tower and fire service finished. It was still possible to land as a private flight (as in it became an unlicensed aerodrome out of hours) but not when under training for a PPL.

This may be an insurance requirement or part of the flying order book rather than a stated rule.

I didn't get a signature for my first land away, only for the QXC.

Connington's a nice landaway, massive tarmac runway.

Sibson, on the other hand, is a relatively short pair of grass strips with their own hazards including actually identifying the runways to start with, and avoiding the electricity pylons. I wouldn't recommend it as a landaway to a PPL in training without having taken them there first. I've landed there three times, it doesn't spring out at you.

[stevelup]

My understanding that as a PPL in training, there was a requirement for the airfield to have a fire service.

I went to a number of farm strips during my PPL training, and they most certainly didn't have a fire service!

The need to use a licensed airfield went away in early 2010.

[On Track]

27/09, I don't think you or I will ever understand the truly bizarre world of British aviation.

[FantomZorbin]

OT & 27/09
What makes you think you are the only bemused ones? ... The almighty CAA works(?) in wonderous ways :ugh:

[Genghis the Engineer]

"Closed" and "unlicensed" are not the same thing.

If an airfield has been declared "closed" by the operator or owner, then using it is trespass. If you have an emergency - who cares, land then apologise afterwards. It would be poor manners and poor practice to land under other circumstances however.

On the other hand, if it's "unlicensed", but not actually closed, then that's different. Only public transport requires a licence in place, instruction doesn't. The licence basically validates various safety procedures - minimum ATC, runway standards, fire and rescue; but those can all be in place without the licence.


We used to have a really daft rule that required light aircraft instruction to use licenced aerodromes, although microlight instruction didn't. After years of absolutely no difference in training fatalities between the two, the rule was finally removed for light aircraft training, and within a year a large number of training airfields had got rid of their licences and saved a lot of money and effort



None of which changes the universal and absolute requirement that the captain has to ensure the safety of the aircraft and the suitability of the airfield being used.

G

[stevelup]

It's all well and good moaning about the CAA, except it is misguided in this case as it has not been necessary to use a licensed airfield for PPL training since 2010!

If an airfield is closed, it's closed. Simple as that - it has nothing to do with the licensing state. It's private property and they've decided you don't want you there - so tough!

Unlicensed / Licensed only affects public transport flights and is irrelevant in this context.

-edit- crossed with GtE

[blueandwhite]

Our local airfield is closed over Christmas, as usual, and flying goes on, as usual. Its not licenced while closed, but that isn't going to make much difference to any one who is prepared. (Hope no one dropped in needing fuel without PPR)


But also as usual there is a lot of rumour and speculation. I don't understand what the OP was asking. Was he checking up that the CFI knew what he/she was doing? I understood it to be Neil's first ever land away. If that's right he should trust his CFI to know all the ins and outs. The CFI is much more likely to be reliable than some half informed replies on the internet.

[9 lives]

An aerodrome, airport etc. is a place from which an aircraft normally takes off and lands. If the owner of the aerodrome/airport closes it, for that time period, it is no longer a place where an aircraft takes off and lands - by the owner's direction. So don't land and take off there. If a store is closed, you don't break in and take what you want anyway do you?

If you have an emergency situation, a "closed" aerodrome could be a forced landing site, and if you do a good job, the aircraft could be flown out again. If a maintenance reason has caused you to decide to land, in flight you have declared the aircraft no longer airworthy. So, once on the ground, how would you declare the aircraft airworthy again to take off? You're not going to take off an unairworthy aircraft from a closed aerodrome are you?

There are airports I know of in the US, which were well declared closed. Pilots landed anyway. They found zero sympathy, and were told that the airplane would have to be disassembled, and trucked out = expensive.

And read your insurance, it probably has exclusions about operations from non or closed aerodromes.

This is the information age - you can't say you didn't know that you should not operate from any given place!

[phiggsbroadband]

Doesn't the CLOSED bit just refer to whether the main gate is open or locked shut, and that the office building is closed?

The runway should remain serviceable, unless they have let the flock of sheep back on.

[fireflybob]

Subject to insurance you do not need a licensed aerodrome for training anymore as has already been stated.

However re fire cover organisations and instructors have a duty of care. If, God forbid, there was serious injury or fatality and it was proved that no fire cover was the reason you might be subject to litigation.

[Maulkin]

So, summary of what ended up happening.

Seems that Connington was indeed closed, and that means you can't land there (except in emergency etc). Sywell (actually, Northampton Sywell, nice long asphalt runway) was open, but operating as unlicensed. This would have been fine to land at, but the CFI said there would be much less training benefit from it, so cancelled today's lesson.

Apparently, blind calls on the published frequency, treating it as an uncontrolled field is the way to go.

[stevelup]

Difficult to see what the difference in training benefit would be!

If anything, it would be useful learning how to self-announce and deal with having no air-ground radio service.

[Whopity]

Difficult to see what the difference in training benefit would be!
This is the attitude that lead to the CAA requirement for all Flight Training to be conducted from licensed aerodromes, which offer a level of safety for flights involving unlicensed pilots. The Licensing requirement for training has been removed but replaced with personal responsibility for the instructor authorising such a flight to ensure that the airfield remains suitable for an unqualified pilot. If its closed, there is no guarantee of any safety services and it is not suitable.

I went to a number of farm strips during my PPL training, and they most certainly didn't have a fire service! If the CAA had realised that you probably would not have obtained a licence. If you logged it and claimed the hours, that is a false declaration which is an offence.

[stevelup]

On your first point, I could not disagree more. Are you seriously saying that a student should not visit any unlicensed airfields during training? That is just ridiculous. It would benefit all students to visit a variety of airfields during their training. We're not talking about a solo land away here.

Your second point is difficult to accept. I'd be really interested to see you come up with a citation for that.

[mad_jock]

Depends which country he did his license in Whopity.

I certainly landed at many fields with no on site fire cover during PPL some solo.

In fact at night I landed at a field when I was the only person on site.

There will be thousands of US trained pilots who have done exactly the same.

[Keef]

There are some countries where you are only permitted to land or take of from an "approved" airfield, and with the owner's or operator's permission (or combinations of the above). I understand that France is one, and therefore that there are very few "farm strips" in France.

In the UK, I can use my back garden as a runway and land and take off from there, as long as it's safe (captain's responsibility to confirm that). I'm sure the expert CFIs will know precise details, but my understanding is that for a student pilot, it's up to the instructor to decide if it's safe or not.
Permission from the landowner or his "agent" is still needed, or it's "trespass".

[stevelup]

It was in the UK, we had permission, and my instructor was very familiar with the sites.

I thought they were valuable trips from a learning point of view and I enjoyed them. It's very difficult to see how anyone could object to this...

[Jan Olieslagers]

Doesn't the CLOSED bit just refer to whether the main gate is open or locked shut

Negative. If the A/D operator has decided no operations are allowed - and that is up to the operator to decide, argue whatever and however much you will - then no operations are allowed, full stop.

As so often, Step Turn has neatly summed it all up.

[9 lives]

Doesn't the CLOSED bit just refer to whether the main gate is open or locked shut, and that the office building is closed?

The runway should remain serviceable

English humour right?

The aerodrome operator is morally if not also legally responsible for preventing the use of the runway if it is not "serviceable". Any number of reasons could be the cause, but closing property you own, is the privilege of ownership, and must be respected by everyone else.

As the pilot, you are at least honour bound to assume that the entire aerodrome is closed, when "closed" is associated with it, unless the closure is more specific to be only the club house, parking lot or the loo.

I own my runway, and I sometimes close it (with "X's") when it is too soft. Also typical in Canada is the statement: "Limited winter maintenance". This should be interpreted as "the owner does not mind of you land, but assure that the runway conditions meet your expectation, 'cause there is no assurance. So, if you don't know, treat it as closed.

It's great for students, or any pilot for that matter, to fly from grass, and the more opportunities the better. But, that does not translate to "I'm gonna land, 'cause I see a runway in front of me". Assure you have whatever permission may be appropriate for the aerodrome.

[foxmoth]

In the Uk closed means whatever the airfield owner wants it to mean - it can mean totaly closed, it can mean that if you are a mate of the owner you can get permission or maybe if your dad has just died he might do the same, it may even mean closed to anyone axcept based aircraft - the thing is that you need the land owners permision, if you can get that then it does not matter what the NOTAMS say, chances are that unless there are exceptional circumstances closed means closed - but that does not make it as hard and fast as some have stated

[Tankengine]

If and when you decide to fly in other countries just be aware that "closed" may mean something else altogether.
:=
I have seen strips close because they are under water, had ditches dug across them, had electric fences across so the sheep or cattle can graze, have motor racing events on them , etc etc etc!:oh::ugh:

I would be really careful landing on a "closed" strip without contacting the operator/owner.:E

[27/09]

Now I'm starting to become confused.

It seems that the meaning of Closed" wrt airfields in the UK might be also a bit like calling "Ready" at the holding point. On more than one occasion I've heard foreign crews mainly with English accents calling "Fully Ready". WTF? Either you're ready or you're not.

To me an airfield's either closed or it's not. How can it be closed when some people are still using it? Should there be a "Fully Closed" option as well? :E

I like the way we do it over here.

There's public and private. Prior permission is required to land at a private airfield whereas it's not required at a public field. Both types can be licensed or unlicensed, or for that matter controlled or uncontrolled,

There's licensed or unlicensed. Licensed means the T/O and landing distances and the approach/departure fans etc have been surveyed by appropriately qualified people. Licensed fields are in the AIP whereas unlicensed are generally not in the AIP. ATO ops generally require a licensed field, the main exception being part 135 ops. Licensed does not infer provision of ATC or RFS.

There's controlled and uncontrolled. When a tower goes off watch the airport stays open but becomes uncontrolled. ATO's can be carried out with or without ATC though once traffic levels and or seat capacity thresholds are exceeded ATC must be in attendance.

RFS services are only required for RPT services and in some instances are only available for arrivals and departures.

When an airport is closed, it is closed, no ifs, buts, or maybes. The closure may be permanent, or may be temporary, due to surface conditions, (flooding etc), or seasonal e.g. haymaking, lambing season etc.

[Legalapproach]

Rule 40 of the Rules of the Air:

40 An aircraft shall not taxi on the apron or the manoeuvring area of an aerodrome without the permission of either:
(a) the person in charge of the aerodrome; or
(b) the air traffic control unit or aerodrome flight information service unit notified as being on watch at the aerodrome.

The manoeuvring area includes the runway.

If an airfield is closed (or open for that matter) it is an offence to land or take off without the permission of the person in charge (or if open, the person in charge or atc/fiso).

I have defended a couple of pilots recently who were charged with this offence. Fortunately they were found not guilty after trials but not before they had been put to not insignificant time and expense.

[ShyTorque]

That's why I always phone first and never assume I can land somewhere. Much easier to get permission than go to court.

[Whopity]

The ANO specifies Aerodrome requirements for Training
Aerodromes – use for purposes of flying instruction and testing
208A (1) The operator of an aerodrome which is not a licensed aerodrome must not permit an aircraft flying or intended to fly for a purpose specified in paragraph (3) to take off from or land at the aerodrome unless satisfied on reasonable grounds that the aerodrome has adequate facilities for the safe conduct of such flights.

(2) The commander of an aircraft must not take off from or land at an aerodrome which is not a licensed aerodrome on a flight for a purpose specifi ed in paragraph (3) unless satisfied on reasonable grounds that the aerodrome has adequate facilities for the safe conduct of such flights.

(3) A flight is for a purpose specified in this paragraph if it is for the purpose of—

(a) instruction in flying given to any person for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant of a pilot’s licence or the inclusion of an aircraft rating, a night rating or a night qualifi cation in a licence
A Closure notice is a fair indication that the operator is not satisfied in accordance with Para (1) Therefore; a Commander, should not take off or land there.

CAP 793 provides guidance on safe practices at unlicenced aerodromes and form an acceptable standard to which authorising instructors should adhere.

Prior to the relaxation of the rules, the ANO specifically stated that flights for the purpose of training for a licence or rating were confined to Licensed Aerodromes. Whilst flights into farm strips had "training value" they could not be logged as part of the experience required for the issue of a licence. The licence application form carries the following Notice:

FALSE REPRESENTATION STATEMENT
It is an offence under Article 231 of the Air Navigation Order 2009 to make, with intent to deceive, any false representation for the purpose of procuring the grant, issue, renewal or variation of any certificate, licence, approval,
permission or other document. This offence is punishable on summary conviction by a fine up to £5000, and on conviction on indictment with an unlimited fine or up to two years imprisonment or both.

Anyone who has made a licence application based on the use of aerodromes where training was illegal could be subject to prosecution under the Act!

[Maulkin]

Perhaps some background may be useful. I fly out of EGSC, which has full ATC. I suspect that the reason to go to Sywell and Connington was that they also feature in the QXC routings, and I don't have much (read: any) experience of AFIS or A/G fields yet.

The club also does farm strip courses, so I don't think there's a reluctance to land at uncontrolled airfields :) Just got to finish my revision for my Nav, Met and Comms exams now, then solo nav...

[9 lives]

At controlled airports it is possible for the ATC to be closed (for the night, usually) and the airport open, as uncontrolled. If so, the pilot's investigation of landing permission will make this evident. However, an ATC airport can also be closed, and there are a few in the Toronto area like that. They close every night for neighbourhood noise - only air ambulance operations.

You simply must inquire, and comply....

[flybymike]

We used to have a really daft rule that required light aircraft instruction to use licenced aerodromes, although microlight instruction didn't. After years of absolutely no difference in training fatalities between the two, the rule was finally removed for light aircraft training, and within a year a large number of training airfields had got rid of their licences and saved a lot of money and effort

This has been a two edged sword.
Training organisations have also begun to decamp from licensed airfields (which need to remain licensed for public transport flights) in order to save money by moving to unlicensed fields. This can threaten the viability of existing licensed fields and we are already losing enough airfields without making matters worse.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm not sure I see it quite the same way Mike.

All airfields are businesses, and to stay successful need to provide a service which the customers want at a price that's acceptable.

All flying schools need to be at an airfield.


If a flying school decides that airfield B meets its needs better than airfield A, then it's absolutely right that it moves.

Airfield A then can either improve service and value for money, or decide it doesn't want that customer. It's simple as that, and it's like this that services and prices improve in a free market.

G

[Mickey Kaye]

I'm not so sure about that FlyByMike

Locally to me two airfields have gone unlicensed the only reason they were licensed was so they could over flight training. Nothing has changed apart from these airfields are now more cost effective than before.

Two other airfields local to me now offer flight training now that the requirement for a licensed airfield was dropped.

Now from a general aviation point of view that has to be a good thing.

[flybymike]

Trouble is that compulsorily icensed airfield A probably can't compete on costs with unlicensed airfield B, for retaining flying schools.
Granted there are obvious advantages with no requirement for licensing, but the associated dangers also need to be recognised and monitored.

[Interested Passenger]

I was picked up by a relative at Cranfield, had a nice day flying, and when we returned were a little surprised to be told by ATC the airfield would be closed by the time we got there. So we returned to his home base at Southend, and drove back:}

I went back to the tower the next day to pay the landing fees for the morning and was chatting to the guys about the opening times. They explained the airport used to be 'fully open' from 9 to 5 with atc and fire/fuel/coffee etc, and 'a bit open' out of hours, with just some empty concrete to land and park on, mainly used by the planes based there.

The owners had changed that to either "very open" or "very closed". the word insurance was mentioned.

I guess other airfields are in the same situation. If you let someone use your runway and they mess it up, and you weren't there to guide them, and mop up, it's your problem, not the pilots.

[ShyTorque]

I guess other airfields are in the same situation. If you let someone use your runway and they mess it up, and you weren't there to guide them, and mop up, it's your problem, not the pilots.

Someone landing at a private strip without permission could also put the owner in breach of the 28 day rule.

[stevelup]

A Closure notice is a fair indication that the operator is not satisfied in accordance with Para (1) Therefore; a Commander, should not take off or land there.

Is this in response to me questioning the fact that you implied I broke the law by logging trips to farm strips during my training? If so, what has it got to do with anything - we're not talking about closed airfields, we're talking about unlicensed ones. Even the original poster wasn't talking about this, he was talking about a trip to Sywell which was NOTAMmed as unlicensed, not closed.

Prior to the relaxation of the rules, the ANO specifically stated that flights for the purpose of training for a licence or rating were confined to Licensed Aerodromes. Whilst flights into farm strips had "training value" they could not be logged as part of the experience required for the issue of a licence.

Well, exactly. My flights were post rule relaxation! So what did I do wrong?

Anyone who has made a licence application based on the use of aerodromes where training was illegal could be subject to prosecution under the Act!

So I still need a citation that shows it was illegal to use a farm strip during my training. We're just going around in circles here. You've pointed out the situations of a closed airfield, and training at an unlicensed aerodrome prior to the rule relaxation. Neither of which are relevant!

[Johnm]

Ye Gods I sometimes despair of the human race :ugh: a closed airfield is like a closed retail store, garage, theatre. It means that it is not accessible without specific negotiation with the owner.

An unlicensed airfield is just an airfield which can't be used by any operator that requires a licensed airfield. Private flights and training flights in a light aircraft are highly unlikely to need a licensed airfield since the requirement for training to take place from licensed airfields was removed in 2010. Even before then flights with instructors could include unlicensed and even foreign airfields!

[JSAG]

On my QXC 2013 I was on my second land out downwind at Goodwood when I was asked to confirm that I was the student on QXC and then informed that I could no longer land as the airfield had become unlicensed (the fire engine had gone tech).
Not what I wanted to hear.
Cheers
John

[9 lives]

I could no longer land as the airfield had become unlicensed

Presuming that when you checked just prior to flight that the airport was available for you to use, this certainly seems to me to be a silly situation to put you in. If you had flight planned that destination, and in particular were it to be your fuel stop, the airport authority would look pretty silly if you thereafter had a problem related to a diversion caused by their officialdom! Something of a sad commentary on the UK I suppose. I have never heard of anything similar in Canada. The only occasion I have heard of an aerodrome becoming unusable for aircraft enroute, would be in the case of a weather deterioration, or a crash, which obstructs the runway. Other than that, one would hope that some more broad judgement could prevail....

[On Track]

I cannot get my head around the way things are done in Britain.

Is it the case that a pilot on a training flight cannot land at an airport that does not have a fire engine?

Is it any different if the flight is just a regular private (non-training) flight?

[stevelup]

No, there is absolutely no need for a fire engine, and it's perfectly OK to land at an unlicensed strip on a training flight with the owners permission and if the instructor is satisfied that the risk is acceptable.

I don't know the specific rules, but I wouldn't have thought this was a good idea (or permitted) for a solo student though

For a non-training flight, you can do whatever you want. Land in a farmer's field if you wish!

[Crash one]

I don't believe fire cover is required since 2010 when it became possible to train at unlicensed airfields.
Perhaps the scenario described could be clarified by CAA?
As for normal non training flight, I would be in deep trouble as would a few others flying into unmanned farm strips if fire engines were required.
Perhaps a case of gold plating a non existing any longer rule.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Perhaps the scenario described could be clarified by CAA?

Really, please, don't ask them. Whatever the answer will be, it won't be as good as the present sensible ambiguity and instructor-discretion.

G

[flybymike]

I suspect they wouldn't give an answer, and like all organs of government would simply refer you to the relevant legislation and effectively place the onus on the pilot/instructor to interpret it and make a decision.

That way, contentious or incorrect answers are avoided and all possible future courses of action left open.

[pudoc]

I once flew into an airfield in Norfolk. I'm pretty thorough (or so I thought) with the preflight, nothing was amiss and PPR not required. Off I went.

Landed and it was like I had landed on Mars. Not a soul about. Nothing in the NOTAMs, on their website or the Pooleys flight guide to suggest they were closed.

I think somebody else also made that mistake as I found a note attached to the clubhouse doors left by a pilot a few hours earlier asking where everybody was!

[Tay Cough]

If an airfield is closed, it becomes a field (and obviously unlicensed).

In the UK, you can land anywhere provided you have permission of the landowner. Therefore all you need is the permission of the owner. :ok:

[Rod1]

"a closed airfield is like a closed retail store, garage, theatre. It means that it is not accessible without specific negotiation with the owner."

NO. A "closed airfield" in the uk means whatever the operator wants it to. It is common for an airfield to be closed - no fuel, no food, no maintenance, no office to pay landing fee, but you can fly with prior permission. All a pilot has to do is check what the operator had in mind by using the word closed, not a big issue.

Rod1

[foxmoth]

The last two posts and indeed the one that Rod 1 quotes are all saying the correct situation but much the same thing as many others are saying, just with different emphasis, so can we stop arguing about the small nuances!:bored:

[9 lives]

so can we stop arguing about the small nuances!

Indeed. Pilots could think of this from the other side, having landed on a runway, and being challenged by a person in authority, what would you tell them constituted your permission to land? Aside from an airport which is publicly presented as being "open", you're could to have to show how you had the land owner's permission. How will you do that?

In 38 years of flying, I have only once been so challenged. I landed on a nice grass runway, from which years earlier, I had flown the 172 based there. Since, the runway had been sold, and made truly private. I was politely asked to not return, and I never have.

If pilots are going to "explore" these opportunities, it would be wise to be well familiar with any insurance limitations which might apply to where you land the plane. Some policies will state runways which are "open" only. You'd not want to have an oops on a closed runway (without very good cause), to then find out that the aircraft insurance will not pay for the damage - or recovery! That is not a good example of begging forgiveness rather than permission, that answer may be a cold "No"!

[Johnm]

"a closed airfield is like a closed retail store, garage, theatre. It means that it is not accessible without specific negotiation with the owner."

NO. A "closed airfield" in the uk means whatever the operator wants it to. It is common for an airfield to be closed - no fuel, no food, no maintenance, no office to pay landing fee, but you can fly with prior permission. All a pilot has to do is check what the operator had in mind by using the word closed, not a big issue.

Rod1

:ugh::ugh: astonishing as it may seem to those with English as a second language, Rod1 and I are saying much the same thing. If the airfield, store, garage etc. is stated to be closed and you are able to contact the owner or someone in authority over the premises, you may be able to persuade them to let you in, otherwise you don't go :ugh::ugh:

[27/09]

It is common for an airfield to be closed - no fuel, no food, no maintenance, no office to pay landing fee

How does the lack of any of the above items close an airfield?

A large proportion of airfields over here don't have any of those things. If a landing fee is to be paid you put your money in the slot in the wall.

I once flew into an airfield in Norfolk. I'm pretty thorough (or so I thought) with the preflight, nothing was amiss and PPR not required. Off I went.

Landed and it was like I had landed on Mars. Not a soul about. Nothing in the NOTAMs, on their website or the Pooleys flight guide to suggest they were closed.

I think somebody else also made that mistake as I found a note attached to the clubhouse doors left by a pilot a few hours earlier asking where everybody was! A pretty common occurrence where I fly.

[On Track]

As I said before 27/09, you and I will never understand the weird way they do things over there.

[flybymike]

Many of us over here wish we were over there.

[pudoc]

A pretty common occurrence where I fly.

As I have now learnt! At the time I had about 80hrs under the belt and was a little baffled having only flown into more popular airfields before.

[27/09]

Ontrack

As I said before 27/09, you and I will never understand the weird way they do things over there.

Yep, sadly I think you're right. We don't realise how good we have it over here.

[stevelup]

Are you two NZ folks even reading the posts? For everyone saying you can't do something, there are several people pointing out that it is nonsense.

[Johnm]

The point people don't seem to get, why is a mystery, is that closure and openness have nothing to do with facilities. It's to do with what the owner of the field has decided. Thus a major airport with facilities to cope with airliners might be closed to all traffic for some reason and a farm strip with no facilities at all might open to all comers.

It then behoves us as pilots to find out about and respect the wishes of the owner, apart from some legal implications in some cases, it's just good manners:ugh:

Licensing is an entirely different matter and the need for a licensed aerodrome is covered by the aircraft operator's activities. Most activities including training, involving a light aircraft do not require a licensed aerodrome, certain commercial activities would need such an aerodrome, but this forum is about private flying.

[27/09]

stevelupAre you two NZ folks even reading the posts? For everyone saying you can't do something, there are several people pointing out that it is nonsense.
Yep been reading all the posts, it's pretty hard to sort the wheat from the chaff. It seems from reading most posts, Closed doesn't really mean closed at all just ring up the owner to get permission to land - is it open or closed or just open to approved pilots? NO. A "closed airfield" in the uk means whatever the operator wants it to.

Then you get this It is common for an airfield to be closed - no fuel, no food, no maintenance, no office to pay landing fee So is it facility related? JohnM clears that up in post #66. This makes sense The point people don't seem to get, why is a mystery, is that closure and openness have nothing to do with facilities. It's to do with what the owner of the field has decided.

[On Track]

Clearly the are some cultural differences in this discussion.

In this part of the world airports don't just close at the whim of the operator.

There would have to be a compelling reason for any registered or certified airport not to be available, and I would expect to see that reason stated in a NOTAM.

For example, I remember Rockhampton airport in Queensland was once closed for a couple of days because most of the runway was under floodwaters.

Sure, runways are sometimes closed at short notice because of disabled aircraft (e.g. wheels-up landing).

Generally, however, airports are open all day every day (and all night if lighting is available, and it usually is).

Also, with very few exceptions, prior permission is not required. And why should it be? Airports are part of the national infrastructure and are there to be used.

Obviously you need permission to use a private farm strip, except perhaps in the case of a forced landing.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Airports are part of the national infrastructure sounds like communism.

In Europe, especially the smaller fields tend to be privately owned and privately operated. Which, as has been pointed out ad nauseum, leaves a lot of liberty to the owner/operator.

[smarthawke]

I do find it a bit strange that some people based outside of the UK just can't accept that in the UK, the 'rules' are different.

Airfields in the UK tend for the most part to be privately owned and those owners can dictate whether or not they want people to land there.

Sometimes their hands are tied by local planning restrictions, often brought about by the local population who view an airfield as an annoyance - not an asset to the community.

Different countries different rules and laws and ways of life. Just over the water from here, everyone drives on the opposite side of the road - surely that is just plain wrong?

[phiggsbroadband]

I am just wondering how many UK grass strips can actually take any form of wheeled transport at this time of year... (hint... It's Wet.)

Isle of Wight Airport Sandown - EGHN - Home (http://www.eghn.org.uk/default.html)

[GBEBZ]

Compton Abbas (EGHA) is a grass strip and still accepts traffic :)

I guess it depends on how bad the "wet" has been.

As for Sandown, I have been there a few times over last year, and they have put in a new ditch and drainage and have done a lot of work on the field.

[foxmoth]

Compton Abbas has the advantage that the water can really only go way from the airfield, unfortunately not the case for most grass strips.:hmm:

[27/09]

smarthawkeI do find it a bit strange that some people based outside of the UK just can't accept that in the UK, the 'rules' are different.

Airfields in the UK tend for the most part to be privately owned and those owners can dictate whether or not they want people to land there.

Sometimes their hands are tied by local planning restrictions, often brought about by the local population who view an airfield as an annoyance - not an asset to the community.

Different countries different rules and laws and ways of life. Just over the water from here, everyone drives on the opposite side of the road - surely that is just plain wrong?

I understand the rules might be different, my reason for posting was to do with the use of the term "Closed" and what constituted a closed airfield.

It would seem your rules are the same as here in the regard that over here use of any private airfield (whether it be a farm paddock or a sealed strip with full facilities) requires permission from the owner. Public airfields are just that, and are freely available for all to use.

Some on here seem to infer a private airfield is closed when in fact all that is needed is the owners permission to use that strip. This was the point of confusion.

[9 lives]

Gosh...

Public airfields are just that, and are freely available for all to use.


Yes, if they are "open". EVERY public airfield has an authority which operates it - person, committee, council, whatever. That entity can declare the airfield closed any time they want. Or, I as a firefighter I can, if I'm attending to an accident there. If the airfield is declared closed by an authority [which could include emergency services], it is closed, and landing there would be at least trespassing, if not an offense.

I have personally closed a public airfield, by phoning flight service, identifying myself as a firefighter, and instructing a notam be issued closing the airfield due to a fatal accident. Then I parked a fire truck in the middle of the runway, for the benefit of those who don't check notams. That airfield was then closed - no negotiation. The airfield "authority" did not yet know that I had closed the airfield, but it was closed. Indeed, he never found out that I closed the airfield, as he was the fatality. If a pilot had landed there during the closed time, I would have had that pilot violated.

Some on here seem to infer a private airfield is closed when in fact all that is needed is the owners permission to use that strip. This was the point of confusion.

A private airfield is closed if the owner does anything which indicates it is closed. In absence of closing action on the owner's part, it is only "open" if you have the owner's explicit permission to operate there then. Otherwise, you are trespassing, though happily, most private airfield operators are gracious about this.

It would be presumptuous to assume that you can land wherever you like (trespass) without assuring the "open" [to you] status of the airfield. Sometimes people get away with presumptuous, but it's still presumptuous, it's not "open".

My 2 cents worth, as a private airfield owner, and formally, an employee of a public airfield operator.

[thing]

Just to put in my two pennorth FWIW. I might be totally off the ball here but I think in places like the US most airfields are owned by the municipality? They are public places, like a bus station. In the UK most airfields are owned by private individuals, and I don't mean that they own an airport but the strip is actually on their land. Indeed you are literally landing in their back yard in a lot of cases. They have the strip for their own use and they let other people use it because they are nice sort of people. Like if you have a big drive you might let the neighbour use it.

[9 lives]

in places like the US most airfields are owned by the municipality? They are public places, like a bus station.

Yes, many airfields in the US and Canada are municipally owned, but they can still be closed.

Any competent authority can close the municipal airport (or the bus station). This would include the operator, the police, the fire department, and Transport Canada.

For example, near me, CYOO, Oshawa, Ontario.

From the Canadian Flight Supplement, in part, (my bold)

OSHAWA
ON
CYOO
REF
N43 55 22 W78 53 42 Adj N 11°W
UTC-5(4) Elev 459 ́ VTA A5000
F-21 LO6 T2 HI5 CAP
OPR
Muni 905-576-8146 Cert
1130-0330Z‡ O/T PPR

The airport is public, and open from 1130 to 0330 UTC. The competent authority (the Airport Manager - Stephen ( I know him well)) can close the airport, and does every night.

So when it is not open, it is closed. But, with prior permission you could land there. Only an air ambulance, or police aircraft will easily get that permission. That permitted aircraft would have permission to land, but the airport will still be closed to everyone else.

Meigs field, where I used to fly as a destination from time to time, was also closed.

Meigs Field - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meigs_Field)

To be sure there was no misunderstanding, they dug up the runway one night, and the remaining aircraft had to be trucked out. No one liked it, and the authority who closed it was not regarded as competent, but it was closed.

"Closed" is an absolute term, not subject to misunderstanding. Operation only by exemption, or opening.

[Rod1]

OK, lets try another angle. If an airfields hours of operation are say 9 am to 5 pm local, is it closed outside these hours, or open with no services? :E

Rod1

[Jan Olieslagers]

That's not another angle, Rod, that is twisting of words. You can forever play on the shades of meaning between "operational", "available", "accessible" &c &c ; it makes no change to the simple facts, as hard to accept/digest as they seem to be to some people.

[Johnm]

Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,261
OK, lets try another angle. If an airfields hours of operation are say 9 am to 5 pm local, is it closed outside these hours, or open with no services?

Rod1


I assume this confusion arises because you live in the Midlands and so English isn't your first language :E:E the answer is "it's closed" .

[Rod1]

I assume this confusion arises because you live in the Midlands and so English isn't your first language the answer is "it's closed" .

Very good! Based on many years of flying in UK and Europe I would say the answer is whatever the operator decides. Many will in fact be open with no services, unlike your local supermarket where closed is not available at all. My local airfield used to put up a notice at this time of year saying;

"Airfield closed 25th Dec and 1st Jan with no services. Please obey noises abatement if you decide to fly and remember we are not licensed".

Closed - in the UK - is whatever the operator wants it to be.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Well, Rod, that seems to me a strong example of incorrect vocabulary - not infrequent indeed in the UK. It certainly explains some of the confusion. This kind of tomfoolery irritates me very much - in my IT profession, I have learned that many perceived/reported problems/issues can be solved, or at least easily diagnosed, by describing them exactly.

Then perhaps, does one need any kind of qualification to operate an a/d in the UK? The requirements can't be very stringent, then...

[phiggsbroadband]

There may be a further complication, in the UK there are such things as Members Clubs, which could operate an airstrip. Each member is an owner of all the club assets and has an equal right to use them.

So although the treasurer has taken the days takings home to be counted, and set the signal square with the yellow cross, the member can call the place 'open' and land. He will also know the pass code to operate the locked electronic Front Gate, so be able to drive home.

[Heston]

Surreal thread, totally surreal.

[ShyTorque]

As I wrote earlier, having been flying in UK since the early 1970s, I always make a phone call first, PPR or not.

I've never had someone ask why I phoned, or object to my phone call.

However, a licensed airfield will have published opening hours as part of the terms of the issue of its licence. If the airfield is to be closed during the published hours, a NOTAM must be issued.

Unlicensed..... Again, a phone call helps prevent any embarrassment.

[foxmoth]

Quote:
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,261
OK, lets try another angle. If an airfields hours of operation are say 9 am to 5 pm local, is it closed outside these hours, or open with no services?

Rod1
I assume this confusion arises because you live in the Midlands and so English isn't your first language the answer is "it's closed" .

Certainly not the case at a number of airfields - I fly from Goodwood and outside the notified hours it is useable if you have filled in an out of hours form, so it is not really open but neither is it really closed, a good case showing where the confusion lies!

does one need any kind of qualification to operate an a/d in the UK? depends I think what level you are talking about - a farmstrip needs nothing and some can be quite challenging!