Pax seat that will not latch upright

[Three Thousand Rule]

Guys, please be gentle, as I am not a pilot.

Today, my seat (A320, European scheduled airline, part of * Alliance) would latch in a reclined position, but not upright.

For the avoidance of doubt, when the latch from fully reclined was released, the seat back would travel between upright and fully reclined with no friction or hesitation.

I am used to seats being 'tired' and having a little movement, but this was the first time (in thousands of pax flights) that I have encountered such a situation.

The cabin crew said it was not a safety issue, which sounded somewhat strange to me, given that seats are meant to be latched upright for take off.

Can you put my mind at rest, that this was not a safety issue?

[Capetonian]

Both airlines I worked for would not allow a passenger to be seated in a seat which did not lock upright. I am very clear on this as I had to deal with offloads.

[bvcu]

Crew education .....! and airline ground staff ..... seat cant be u/s because we are full.....

[Ollie Onion]

Yep, in our airline you can dispatch with a broken recline like this as long as it is NOT an emergency exit row seat. Obviously if we had an empty seat to put you in then you would be moved for your comfort.

[No Fly Zone]

It depends upon where you are and what airline. To a substantial degree, airlines CAN modify the National Rules - to a degree. Good Policy? You'll have to make your own choice. In MOST situations, a dysfunctional seat (or seat-back) is considered a seat Out of Service. In some cases A crew member may use the seat, but use by a fare-paid passenger is unthinkable bu an airline that is thinking.
It is always up to the captain, but as you describe it, I doubt the s/he was informed. Please let us know (PM if necessary) in which country this flight began.
By any measure, this is a horrible practice and that INOP seat shoudl have been excluded from service, yes, even if a low priority 'tourist' family of five got bumped. With ONE dead seat, the airline could have found a suitable option, somehow. Here, or via PM, can you share more facts and details? I'd like to inquire a bit more. Thanks.

[DaveReidUK]

With my lot, if the seat is stuck in the recline position on the 320 it can't be used and the row behind it is to be blocked off as well.That should be a no-brainer on any airline.

If I was sitting in a row behind a seat that was stuck in recline for takeoff or landing and the crew wouldn't/couldn't move me, I'd offload myself rather than fly.

Perhaps the author of post #5 could identify his carrier so we know who to avoid.

[Wodrick]

SB is 100% correct, not acceptable. Seat behind, even the row behind depending on position. Egress is inhibited.

[Piltdown Man]

Broken recline mechanisms are expensive in terms of knock on effect. My lot apply the same rules as Smash and David's. A broken recline, as in a seat that can not be secured upright, in-ops that seat. But if it's an aisle seat it also makes the entire row behind unusable, otherwise it just the seat, the seat behind and those to the end of the row (behind). Contact them. If you are not happy with their response, drop them in it.

[Piltdown Man]

3,000 rule - as far as I am concerned, frequent flyers like yourself are a valuable source of information regarding unusual noises, smells, procedures and broken bits. You generally know what is right and what is wrong because of your experience. I'll always listen to F-F's.

(But some F-F's do occasionally take the P regarding cabin service and upgrades, but for safety items they are very valuable)

[bcgallacher]

Most airline seat recline is controlled by a linear hydraulic cylinder - they can normally be locked in the upright position by repositioning a large 'C' clip. This procedure takes less than 5 minutes to perform if a competent mechanic is available. The seat is considered serviceable for use by a passenger.

[pulse1]

On a BA 777 flight from Denver my wife was sitting in the centre seat of three. As soon as she sat down one side of the hinge collapsed and that side reclined so the seat back twisted. The CC jiggled the seat back until it seemed ok.

On take off the seat collapsed again so, as soon as the seat belt lights went off, we summoned the CC again. The third seat was occupied by a very tall man who had probably booked an aisle seat. So that we could stay together, they tried to move him to the only vacant seat which happened to be in the centre of another row but, when we pointed out his long legs, they went to extraordinary lengths to shuffle people around so that he could have an aisle seat.

We ended up in the happy situation of having three seats to ourselves. I thought that the CC handled this situation really well. I did suggest that the problem could have been solved by giving me a jump seat up front, something I used to do frequently before 9/11.:{

[Three Thousand Rule]

Many thanks to all, for your replies.

I am going to write to the airline and ask them to state their policy for broken seats.

In the meantime, I will not book any flights with this particular company.

Not that this is relevant to safety, but I was in a paid business class seat and am a * alliance Gold card holder, not great customer service.

PS PIltdown Man, thanks for your kind comments - NB: I don't play games on service or upgrades :-)

[Skyjob]

As mentioned prior, the effect of a non-functional recline could be degree from the row behind.
If yours was the window seat, little impact as only that seat behind would be affected, not your own.
Had yours been the aisle seat, then the egress of the entire row behind is at stake, rending the town behind inoperative, in addition to the seats from your aisle seat towards the sidewall.
Different operators have differences in interpreting the impacts of the recline in these cases.
Be aware, cabin crew are (usually/sometimes) not aware of specific limitations imposed by the MEL (Master Equipment List) which lists any allowable defect items on board your aircraft. Engineers or pilots need to refer to this document to ascertain if and how the defect can be accepted prior to departure.
When faced with any equipment which is broken, please always advise cabin crew and ask them if they are aware of this, if not can they inform cabin supervisor (who usually has a bit more knowledge of contents of MEL) or in turn the pilots.
Let the pilots make the judgement call on whether to use the seat, row behind, etc, in accordance with the document available to them to refer to limitations in cabin furnishings.
In the inadvertent event something should happen during the flight they (the pilots) are ultimately responsible and thus will be held accountable should they in any subsequent investigation have been found to have failed to refer to this document and record the defect accordingly prior to departure or have it rectified depending on airline policy.
I would commend your actions for following this up with the airline involved.

[ruddman]

Reading this sounds like the end of the world. I've bee on many flights with various airlines and bewteen my wife and I we both have had a 'dodgy' seat many times or seen others with one. Nobody seems to care. Regular thing I thought. Shame they weren't reclined all the time. :ok:

[mikedreamer787]

Both the MMEL and Co MEL state a broken seat cannot be sold.

However when push comes to discretionary shove, as long as the seat back locks in the upright position it can legally be used for TO and landing. If it doesn't it can only be used TOPC to TOPD.

In reality such seats can be authrised to positioning crew by the capt with a full ship.

[Skyjob]

From 737:
MEL 28-6-1 Recline Mechanism (If Fitted)

MEL Category: D
Number Fitted/Required: tba/0
Remarks and Exceptions: (M) May be inoperative and seat occupied provided seat is secured in the up-right position.


MEL Category: C
Number Fitted/Required: tba/0
Remarks and Exceptions: (M) May be inoperative and seat occupied provided seat is secured in the up-right position.


CDL 28-6

PLACARD
As appropriate - DO NOT STOW BAGGAGE UNDER THIS SEAT or SEAT RECLINE INOP or DO NOT OCCUPY or ARM REST INOP or ELECTRICAL/ELECTRONIC SYSTEMS/COMPONENTS INOP.
MAINTENANCE (M)

SEAT INOPERATIVE SECURED IN UPRIGHT POSITION:
Refer to the seat manufacturer’s information for securing seat in upright position.
SEAT INOPERATIVE OTHER THAN UPRIGHT POSITION:

Secure seat in break over position with a strap or rope such that seat can not be moved during flight.
OR
If seat is stuck in the recline position:

Verify that emergency exit is not blocked.
Block off the row of seats aft of inoperative seat and placard the entire row DO NOT OCCUPY.

[ruddman]

$$$ supersedes something written in a book nobody has read.

[Derfred]

Not in my airline.

[peekay4]

@Three Thousand Rule

Think of the alternatives... they could have:

a. Send you down to coach, or
b. Bump you off the flight, or
c. Restrain the seat upright so you can't recline at all for the entire flight

Since it wasn't a flight safety issue, maybe they did you a favor...

[ruddman]

Not in my airline

I fly 90% in Australia where I've seen and had one AFTER boarding. Been sold a dodgy seat. And I don't fly budget either. ;)

[cockney steve]

For all it's critics, I travelled Ryanair and noticed several seats (about 3) with the tray-table in front secured by sticky tape (the clear parcel sort, not "Gaffer tape!) the flight was fully sold other than the faulty positions, which CC informed me were only unusable because of the insecure T/T mounted to the back of the seat in front.
It was a very shiny modern plastic and easy-clean aircraft, not a converted Vickers Vimy :} Lost revenue must have hurt! so full marks to RYR
Similar situationon return leg, so I assume this is a design fault/weakness.

I see little problem with a failed upright lock.....If an arrival is sudden enough for a loose seatback to cause a problem, I would expect that to be the most insignificant one in a drastically rearranged cabin.
As a pax, with a lap restraint only, I'd welcome a bit of "give " in the seatback in front, whilst bent over waiting to kiss my a55 goodbye.
Am I foolish, or just laid-back,( so to speak, ) where this risk is concerned ?

[RVF750]

One issue on Boeing 737 is that occasionally the seat table can unlatch and block your exit in an emergency. Even latches that turn the wrong way are considered U/S. Getting jammed in your row by a table is not a good idea. Then again, I always count the rows and plan on an over the top exit myself....

[Snakecharma]

Peekay4

I saw no mention that the initial poster was in any class, so may well have been in coach.

I believe it IS a safety of flight issue and the engineers should have lock wired the seat in the upright position. There is no way it should have been occupied for take off or landing with the recline mechanism buggered (and not locked in the upright position).

I would rather get moved to another flight than fly in a seat that is unsafe.

(And to answer those that say it isn't unsafe, is the seat certified to withstand a 16g deceleration with the seat not locked upright. Is the seat guaranteed to perform as per spec in that configuration. How does the seat not being in the proper position affect the head strike certification for the pax in the seat behind? Does the lap seat belt perform as expected given the potentially different seating position and the position of the belt on the body. Does the seat squab move forward with the seat reclined (some do) and if so, how does that affect knees of the pax in the seat in a collision, does the passenger seated in that seat "duck under" in a rapid deceleration - I.e. Slide forward under the belt).

[Three Thousand Rule]

Peekay4

We do not know if it was a safety issue, as we do not know the airline's SOPs, although the majority of the posters here seem to believe it would be in their airline.

The seat was in business and the obvious solution would have been to sit in the middle seat, which is not sold, but another passenger wanted the window seat and sat in it, whilst I took her aisle seat. Thought it was pretty foolish, but I didn't owe her a duty of care.

I am still awaiting a response.

By the way, when I pay for a revenue business class ticket, I don't regard being allowed to travel as being done a favour.

[Capt Quentin McHale]

3000 Rule,


As you can see, most posters here were "gentle" with you and most helpful and knowledgeable. Then there are the others who like to show everybody on here that their shoe size is far greater than their IQ and have no idea what goes on "behind the scenes" in the aviation world.


Piltdown Man hit the nail on the head. Most if not all airlines will not know their seats are broken (unless it is bleeding obvious to the cabin crew or picked up on an overnight/daily/weekly/monthly check) unless you the passenger informs the crew. They then should record the defect in the cabin logbook so that it can be repaired.


As far as your crew member saying that it is not a safety issue, total crap,you should NEVER have been allowed to occupy that seat. IT IS A SAFETY ISSUE and that crew member really should"nt be in the industry. And to think this person has to look after your safety in the event of an emergency.... give me strength!!!


As Skyjob has pointed out via the MEL book (and yes ruddman, it DOES get read with every defect recorded if said defect cannot be repaired in time for aircraft departure) you can use the seat, provided it is locked in the upright position. My company will move a customer to another seat (if available) and put a paxing crew/staff member in the broken seat. There are also other reasons where a seat cannot be occupied at all by anyone according to the MEL book. Hope this helps.