Those affected by noise from airfields

[The_Pink_Panther]

It seems that motorsport are getting their act together over something that affects airfields too:

introduce mandatory noise complaint waiver for anyone who buys or rents a property close to motorsport venue - e-petitions (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/72458)

Anyone on here literate enough to draft a similar thing for those of us involved with flying contraptions?

TPP

[PA28181]

I'm no lawyer, but doesn't English property law allow caveats to be imposed on land/property so it could include something like that. I had a caveat on a house I owned that I couldn't sue British Rail for any damage caused whatsoever by the operation of the railway particularly fire from steam loco's. It became evident I believe after the Purley crash.

[justmaybe]

Have a squint at the leading case in nuisance - Sturges -v- Bridgman (1879) Sometimes these things aren't as simple as they might first appear.

[RatherBeFlying]

A lot of glider clubs have this problem, especially from people who get sold a house in February under a takeoff path that the estate agent failed to bring to the buyer's attention :mad:

There's a country estate subdivision recently put up a couple miles away that regularly complains when the towplane comes within a couple miles. The rural township has been subsumed into a metropolitan area and the city staff have no idea what to do:}

It has been made clear to the City that the airport is under federal jurisdiction, but they try to pester about the campers and septic tank capacity, but the club was established some 60 years ago and two municipalities before which means records are nonexistent - which doesn't stop the club from claiming grandfathering from historic use.

The feds are talking about local consultation for airport after a new airport was established West of Edmonton Alberta in a riding full of voters for the ruling party. The downtown airport leases were expropriated and the new airport was established as there's a substantial number of operators who want nothing to do with the Edmonton Airport Authority.

[xrayalpha]

PA28181,

Perhaps correct in ENGLISH law.

In Scottish law, restrictive covenants can now only be put in place on the purchaser. So if A sells to B, and says ÿou cannot sell alcohol here (as the church used to do), then all B has to do is sell to C.

And if someone's position is known, then C may set up Z to buy from A and then sell to C so as to get round all this.

General effect, no-one bothers with restrictive covenants any more in Scotland.

ps. Doesn't stop an airfield from objecting, or placing on record its concerns, with the planning department when the planning application is published. Then, if anyone complains at a later date, the airfield can point to the public record held by the council planners.

Of course, we at Strathaven, simply try to minimise the risk and be good neighbours.

Maybe a petition to force the CAA to allow hush kits as fitted in Germany to Cessnas over there to be fitted to Cessnas over here might be more neighbour friendly?

[mad_jock]

h'mm I am sure I had a restriction that I wasn't allowed to grow potatoes in my front garden in my deeds in Scotland.

Also had something as well about planting rhododendrems.

As neither were likely to happen I have never thought about it.

[tmmorris]

If not officially, then at least in practice restrictive covenants are not enforceable against subsequent purchasers in England either. Certainly when I spoke to my solicitor about neighbours parking their car on their 'lawn' rather than the allocated parking space, despite a covenant imposed by the original developer, she said I had no chance of enforcing it. (The local highways department were more interested though when I discovered they had moved a highways boundary marker to enlarge the 'lawn' to make space...)

[thing]

I can neither dig for gravel on my property nor put up a wall adjoining a public footpath more than eighteen inches high.

[tmmorris]

And who does the covenant state can enforce this?

[thing]

No idea about the gravel, the local council are pretty keen on the 18 inch wall malarkey though. All of the properties around me have the 18 inch wall in their deeds. Not that it bothers me as the area doesn't lend itself to walls at the front. I have no kind of wall/fence at all, you can just walk off the street onto my front garden.

[stevelup]

A neighbour of mine complained when I got chickens. Said 'you can't do that, there's a restrictive covenant'.

So I checked my deeds, and there was no such thing. Checked his, and it was indeed there. We live right next-door in identical houses built at the same time by the same developer and all our paperwork was identical word for word except the fact he couldn't keep poultry.

Work that out if you can...

[ChickenHouse]

Always keep in mind when plagued by paranoia - even then it could be they are after you ...

We had a similar thing right now - neighbor used his mafia network to build a commercial building in an area for pure living. You can't beat corruption and criminal behavior, even though many want to believe.

[A and C]

This habit of moving into an area and complaning is becoming a real problem for all sorts of people, members of the Hampstead set buy a rural cottage and then set the law onto local farmers because the cows moo to much or the church gets it because the bells are too loud.

There needs to be a change in the law that protects those who have used the land for years from those who move in and see a chance of boosting the property value by stopping some near by but long standing activity.

My understanding is the problems of planning restrictions that are making the long standing motor racing circuit at Malory park unviable have woken the motorsport industry up to this issue, and aviation shoud lend its support, perhaps AOPA, the LAA and BGA should get together to pursue this with the motorsport industry as a matter of common interest.

[ShyTorque]

I cannot do anything that causes a nuisance to my neighbours, by order of the Duke of Newcastle. I've got chickens, dogs, a wall (over 18 inches high), front garden parking, we also have aeroplanes over the roof at low level most days. We've been here for over twenty five years and as far as I'm aware, no-one has complained to him yet. Mind you, he's been buried for a very long time now.

The near neighbours like the chickens, which live right on their boundary; they have said so a number of times. Apparently they find the noises they make quite relaxing (and we pass over a few eggs from time to time when we have some going spare). Another neighbour followed our lead and he now has more birds than we do!

[ChickenHouse]

Worst I heard was from German airfield Porta EDVY, where somebody bought a very cheap piece (guess why ...) of land directly under final and then filed law suit on noise issue against the venerable place - and won. We do have a sick dysfunctional society structure to a certain extend.

[thing]

What has always bemused me about the tiny minority who complain about these issues is that everyone who is affected just kind of sits back and takes it. Surely a friendly visit to point out the fault in their thinking would pay dividends?

There is/was a vocal complainer in my local area who had a beef with the twins that fly from my flying club. We have no twins. Turns out he is a pilot from a well known beardy airline as well...

Edit: Which reminds me of the farmer about five miles from one of my old gliding airfields who used to constantly complain about the noise of our low flying gliders. I'm not making it up.

[chevvron]

A few years ago, there was a report on the Fulham FC Supporters forum about someone who bought a house near Craven Cottage during the summer and as soon as the football season started, 'realised' there was a large football ground nearby and started a petition to get it closed down. Now you would have thought the existence of grandstands and floodlights (visible from some distance away) might have given them a clue when they viewed the house wouldn't you.
The stadium has only been there since 1879 after all!

[Whopity]

In the UK, if anyone makes an official noise complaint, it is one of the things that must be declared when selling the property so that future purchasers are aware of it.

It is always worth asking complainers: Is this an Offficial Complaint? because it will be recorded and could affect the value of your property in any future sale.

[xrayalpha]

A and C said:

"...aviation shoud lend its support, perhaps AOPA, the LAA and BGA should get together"

Is that list missing the BMAA because microlights already have to have noise certificates? :-)

[A and C]

The list did not include the BMAA because I simply forgot to add you to the list and the BMAA would be most welcome to add its support to such a venture.

If you think the Noise Certificate on your microlight will protect you from the anti brigade forget it ! I once had the police turn up to investigate a complant about the noise from a model aircraft I was flying.

After landing the aircraft the PC was less than impressed to find that the noisy aircraft was infact a glider, he was so irritated that he called his Sergeant and they both visited the companant on the issue of wasting police time.

[xrayalpha]

A & C,

I knew you had just forgotten us!

But my serious point is that a typical microlight trainer - ie C42 or Eurostar - is a lot lot quieter than a Cessna 150.

As my wife said when she heard a Cessna doing power checks outside our house: do we have to have that sort of aircraft on our airfield?

Yet there is a solution.

Hush kits are approved and fitted on Cessnas in Germany, and we are all in EASA-land now.

So why aren't we fitting them here?

The idea that Cessnas are making no more noise than they ever did doesn't apply today, when airports are forcing jet operators to use ever quieter types, industry cannot dump waste as it used to, cars cannot pollute as much as they did.

But GA?

We think we have a god-granted right to continue in the same old ways?

Funnily enough, I don't think most pilots think that way. But from the outside, we must appear a bunch of arrogant tossers.

And, yes, noise certificates have helped us here at Strathaven. Local council were quite impressed, to put it frankly.

[robin]

When I was gliding at the old Inkpen site, one of the nimbys peppered the club Blanik with his shotgun.

[A and C]

I do take your point about redusing the noise to a minimum but the older types do have performance issues conected with silencers and some of the silencers reduce the climb rate, the result being that more people are disturbed by a slightly less noisy aircraft.

The issue here is not one of flying with as little noise as posable, most of use do so and the reasonable 95% of the population are happy with this, the issue is dealing with the uninformed and unreasonable.

Recently a friend of mine witnessed a person in a small south Devon village complaning about the noise of one of those aircraft from the airfield at the top of the hill, he had to point out to the lady that the Dash 8 was from Exeter airport ! further questioning revealed that the noise from the "little aircraft" did not bother her but her name had been put on the anti airfield petition in error as it transpired as the protest group had misreprisented the type of aircraft flying from the airfield.

The same airfield has had protests from a few very nasy people who attemped to use misinformation (see Above) and clever use of the law to get the airfield shut, there was no reasoning with these people, it was my view that it was an attempt to increase their property price by getting the airfield shut.

Persistent noise protesters are usually only interested in upping the price of their property and/or have too much time on their hands and just need some issue to give their lives some sort of meaning. Newly retired professionals are the worst they have the time and the nous to be a real pain !

[B19]

When I lived in Chicago in the middle 70's there was a lot of the same tune. FAA changed the flight patterns of airliners and most were happy.


My point of view is if you buy property around an airport then expect planes coming and going.


Just because a town increases in size or a farmers field is bought and developed into a housing complex is no reason to penalize aircraft operation.


My town has one runway, summers are busy with tourists flights in and out up to midnight.


Buy a home next to an airport and be happy, folks are having fun and other folks are making a living!!!




Have a good one




:)

[Andy_P]

At our aerodrome, they build new houses under the flight path about 10-15 years ago, and of course all the people in those houses now want the airport shut down.

Despite the constant battle with the local council, it looks like they are going to resurface the runway (although I think its fine) and apparently are going to also resurface the taxiways and add a new area for run-ups.

And here I am, living almost under the approach path for RWY 14 @ YBBN (Brisbane International) and I am pissed because the new parallel runway is going to see the end of the aircraft traffic!! My house is in Class C to SFC.

[Boyndiebowler]

In the UK, if anyone makes an official noise complaint, it is one of the things that must be declared when selling the property so that future purchasers are aware of it.


Good point. These days if you do not disclose any problems you have had with locals you could be in breach of contract.One of our neighbours was embroiled in a dispute about a high hedge, when he sold the house he didnt disclose it to the new owner and was succesfully sued by the new occupier and had to pay for the hedge to be cut down plus court costs after the local council forced the lowering of the hedge

[destinationsky]

I am a G.A pilot and I live under a flight path close to an airport. I deal with noise complaints for an airport and there is a lot to be said about how airfields deal with the complainant. If the complaint is not dealt with in the correct way then the complainer will come back again and again and cause more issues. I take a proactive approach to the community surrounding the airport and I have found that if you are open with your operation then the complaints get curbed quickly. If you can demonstrate that you do as much as you can (as far as practicable - noise preferred routings etc) then people tend to be more satisfied. Everyone will agree that NPR's are a bit of a pain in the @rse to fly but they are a better compromise than losing all flying rights.

If airfield operators take the stance that these people are just a pain and treat them with contempt then this approach will exacerbate the situation. Give out as much information as possible so people are informed.

[ericferret]

A seem to remember that the noise complaints about the Heathrow-Gatwick helicopter shuttle continued for several years after the service ceased. Some people just like to complain.

At Rotterdam airport a Boeing Turkish 727 took off fairly early in the morning and the phones would ring off the hook. One day it went u/s and the phones still rang off the hook!!!!!!
It became evident that the complaints were base on the airports website. That morning the website had not been updated to show the delay.

At our local airfield we host at least one event a year for the local villagers, our noise complaints are virtually non existent.

[chevvron]

I seem to remember a story about Concorde's first visit to Heathrow. Residents living on the final approach track to the east were given (I think) pre printed postcards to sign to say they were objecting to the noise. When the postmarks were analysed, it was found that many had been posted long before the Concorde had commenced its final approach!

[glendalegoon]

in our city, there is an active campaign to retrofit homes near the airport with sound proofing.

really folks, if you are buying a house near an airport and you don't expect noise, then you are a jerk.

so, don't be a jerk. buy a house somewhere else. maybe near an oil refinery!

[westhawk]

buy a house somewhere else. maybe near an oil refinery! I've lived within 1/2 a mile of LAX for most of the last 18 years. I have no complaints to make. Over on the other side of the airport you can have it both ways. There's an oil refinery there. Oh, and the sewage treatment plant too. I'm glad I live on THIS side of the airport!

The local airport complaint groups are a real hoot. But they did get money from the airport to retrofit nearby houses with double pane windows and such...

As for noise abatement procedures, I've always done my best to fly as quietly as conditions allow. At the airports like SMO and SNA that have noise enforcement sensors, one has to learn the proper techniques to defeat the noise police and deny them their fine! For the years I flew charter out of BUR, I was often the one giving the nice people of Burbank their 5 AM wakeup call! But then, I love airport noise.

westhawk

[Stanwell]

As a youngster in the 1950s I lived close to a major airport.
Airliners such as the Boeing Stratocruiser, Lockheed Constellation and Douglas DC7 would come close by, fully loaded and only slowly gaining height.

Aside from the noise (which I loved), they would rattle the windows and shake the crockery in the cupboards.
The thing that did inconvenience the oldies, though, was that the ignition systems would interfere with the TV reception.

Well, when you've got 112 individual cylinders firing at take-off power, in the case of the B337 Strat, (4 x P&W 4360s), you could expect that, couldn't you?

These days, people move next to an airport and then complain about the noise from C172s and PA28s.

I'll just leave it at that, I think.

[Zulu Alpha]

The simplest way to deal with unreasonable noise complainers is to ask them to make an official complaint to the local council.
At the same time you warn them that this will be held on file and must be disclosed in any pre sale questionaire. ie they must tell any prospective purchaser that these is a noise problem with their property.

Normally they go away at this point.