GLIDING: 'We fly nearly every day of the year'

[Flyaways]

I thought gliding was a summer sport, however it looks like the gliding club near me try to fly each day.

My question really is if I start learning now, will I be ready for the summer months when they come next year? I'm generally a quick learner so have no worries there, I am just wondering if you can get any meaningful flights in the winter months?

[Blink182]

All depends on how many flights you can get in ......How often can you visit ?

[Flyaways]

Probably every weekend

[davydine]

This is an ideal time to start. I don't know where your local club is, but If they mostly rely on thermals for lift in the summer then starting now will mean that you will have a good grip on the basics of the launch, controlling the glider and flying the circuit before next spring, so when it starts to get thermic you can really concentrate on learning to stay up.

To give you an idea, my first flight in a glider was in October 91 and my first solo in November 92 and it took 49 winch launches. I was a student back then so it would have been quicker if I could have afforded to fly more frequently.

My first soaring flight was a wapping 29 minutes in April 92. It was my 21st flight and judging by my log book I was doing all of the flying by then

Do let us know how you get on!

[longer ron]

Yes - excellent time to start gliding - as long as cool weather does not worry you too much !
As DD said - you can do quite a bit of circuit flying over the winter and more advanced flying if your local club has Aerotow facility !

Hope you enjoy your flying !

[ChrisJ800]

Quickest way to learn is to book on a week's gliding course and makes a great holiday too!

[pulse1]

I started learning in November and went solo in March. The advantage of Winter flying is that your fellow students tend to be as mad as you. This led to a great cooperative spirit among the students which tended to disappear when the warmer weather brought out the more sane types in the Spring. This was at a professionally run club.

[Rocket2]

Not aware of any UK gliding club that packs up for the winter (can't afford to). The plus side of flying at this time of year is that you don't get many people coming for trial lessons & student tend to disappear unless their hardy. The downside is that winter time is traditionally the time to do the annual servicings so you may find part of the two seater fleet are off line for a couple of months.
Agree with all though - start flying now & you should be well on your way to solo by the spring.
Blue skies

[astir 8]

The hard bits (IMHO) of flying tend to be the takeoff and landing. The general flying bit generally comes fairly quickly (especially to the young!).

So assuming that you are not looking at gliding at a ridge site where soaring can take place all the year, learning through the winter at a winch launch site can be quite cost effective.

Aerotowing in winter is a lot more expensive for the time spent in the air as the time spent airborne may not be much greater than a good winch launch.


The downsides to learning in winter are

a) there is no colder place in the world than the middle of an airfield in winter - dress accordingly, especially waterproof insulated footwear (that can still fit on the rudder pedals)

b) Days are short

c) Time losses due to weather

Generally the answer we give to "how long to go solo" for a student with no previous flying experience (ab initio) is between 60 and 100 winch launches.


There are of course exceptions either way - usually related to age and how often you can fly.

Other flying experience of course helps!

(Ignore all the stories of "I went solo after 17 three minute launches with the ATC" - they may be true but scary)

[Andrewgr2]

When the ATC sent students solo after a small number of winch launches, typically in a T21 or T31, they weren't trying to teach them to be glider pilots. They were teaching them to fly round a circuit 'by numbers', generally at a very big airfield, and land safely. So far as I am aware, they didn't have a high rate of serious accidents and they had a very large number of students who were very proud of their achievements!

Incidentally, when my father, in the early 1950's, during his RAF career, found himself in charge of all the RAF gliding in the north of England, he thought that maybe he ought to check out what they were doing. They gave him an instructor certificate after 6 winch launches! I think he would be the first to admit that he was pleased he never had to follow up by using his newly earned qualification. Instructing on Meteors at CFS was one thing, gliders quite another!

[cats_five]

Aerotow can be more cost effective than winch launches if the tug is a Eurofox or similar. At my club £18 for a 2,000' tow which gives 18 minutes or so of free flight, £8.50 for a winch launch which gives 5-6 minutes of free flight. Although the free flight time is similar there is only one circuit & landing with the aerotow so for early ab initios who are learning to actually fly the glider they get more stick time.

[Flyaways]

Thanks guys. I've got more info from the club now so know a little more.

One thing I am a little confused about is how much it would cost me. I have the charges per launch/minute but that doesn't mean much to me!

Lets say I went down this Saturday... how much should I expect to spend? (Or how many flights could I get and how long will they be?)

Might be a bit of a specific question but it's always useful to know! Don't want to go down expecting to spend £30 and end up spending £300!!!

[ShyTorque]

(Ignore all the stories of "I went solo after 17 three minute launches with the ATC" - they may be true but scary)

They are true. I've still got my little green booklet, my "A and B certificate" issued by the BGA/ Royal Aero Club, dated 3.6.1972 to show for it. Nought to solo at RAF Swanton Morley in one week, at the age of sixteen.

[BackPacker]

One thing I am a little confused about is how much it would cost me.

As with all things, it depends.

In winter, you should not expect any significant thermals, but be grateful if you happen to stumble upon one. So the majority of your flights will be 5-6 minutes (if winch launched) or about 15 minutes (if towed). Add to that some 5-10 minutes maneuvering on the ground to get the glider back to the launch point, ready for the next launch. This means an aircraft will make somewhere between 3 and 6 flights per hour.

The next variable is the ratio of students to instructors. Since there are hands required on the ground too, that ratio is typically 1 in 3 to 1 in 5. Which means that if everything runs smoothly you can get a flight in maybe once in every 1.5 hours. If you're lucky, more. If you're unlucky, less. On average, count on 3 to 5 flights per day.

Of course if you're near a ridge (so you can ridge soaring) or if it's one of those rare winter days with sufficient thermal activity to stay up longer, then the total number of flights will go down, but the individual flights will be longer and more rewarding.

Since it doesn't cost anything to fly (no fuel costs) but only to launch a glider, flights are typically a fixed cost, regardless of their duration.

[Crash one]

Quote:
(Ignore all the stories of "I went solo after 17 three minute launches with the ATC" - they may be true but scary)
They are true. I've still got my little green booklet, my "A and B certificate" issued by the BGA/ Royal Aero Club, dated 3.6.1972 to show for it. Nought to solo at RAF Swanton Morley in one week, at the age of sixteen.

I've still got mine dated Feb 56. RAF Hawkinge. Age 16. Most of us solo by Wednesday, spent the rest of the week taking turns in the spare aircraft. Didn't seem scary at that age.

[Ka6crpe]

Without knowing the costs at your local club, nor your ability, I can comment on what I have found after 30 years instructing.
It will take you around 20 take off's and landings before you will feel confident that you have the correct speed control and aiming point technique. At that point you will quickly start grasping the variations of joining the circuit too high, too low, etc. Baulked approaches and side slipping approaches (air brake failure) will be next. If you have access to both aero tow and winch, then plan on aero tow for air exercises to give you the maximum time on each exercise, and winch for circuit practice.

Overall expect around 40 - 50 circuits and 8 - 10 hours before solo. At that point you are about 20% of the way to being a qualified Glider Pilot.

I have sent pilots solo with a lot less than that, and some a lot more. (only ever two who I considered could never solo). I'm not sure how much the UK syllabus varies from the NZ one. But we do concentrate on paddock selection for outlandings, flying a circuit without an altimeter, and eventually without any instruments.

As for gliding in winter? Best time for lee waves and high altitude flying.

[Rocket2]

"Since it doesn't cost anything to fly (no fuel costs) but only to launch a glider, flights are typically a fixed cost, regardless of their duration."

Not so if using a club aircraft in the UK - most, if not all, clubs charge a fee per minute airborne time on top of the launch.

[BackPacker]

The ones I've seen only charge a fee per minute if you exceed, say, 30 minutes flight time. Are you saying some charge a fee per minute from the moment of launch? That seems a lot of administration for very little gain.

[xtophe80]

Flight time needs to be recorded anyway for the pilots and airframe log books so not really an additional burden

[astir 8]

Prices vary a lot between UK clubs. The big "professional" 7 days/week clubs are generally more expensive than the weekend-only clubs which are generally operated by unpaid volunteers. 30 to 35 pence per minute of flight is about par for a two-seater glider but the instructor is normally free!

A winch launch is generally around £7 to £8 these days. Aerotows to 2000' £25 to £35.

Winch launch heights vary a lot between clubs. It essentially depends on the length of cable which can be laid out. Expect to get about 30% of the horizontal cable run as launch height on a light wind day. As the wind gets stronger down the cable run you get free height!

So if you are looking around winch launch clubs ask what is their typical launch height.

The arguments as to which is better to learn on, winch or aerotow can go on forever. The best of both worlds is a club which can offer both.

[cats_five]

<snip>

Since it doesn't cost anything to fly (no fuel costs) but only to launch a glider, flights are typically a fixed cost, regardless of their duration.



So tyres, wheels (if damaged), maintenance and eventual replacement are free? Gosh I wish I flew where you fly!

[BackPacker]

How does a tire wear out while in flight?

At the club where I fly there's a fixed cost per flight. This obviously also covers wear and tear while on the ground (insofar a grass take-off or landing wears out a tire in the first place - most tires need to be replaced due to old age, not due to wear). But you don't get charged for airtime as airtime doesn't cost the club a whole lot.

The only thing directly related to airtime is the 50-hour check. And that one is done by volunteers, for free.

[Flyaways]

The club I am looking at charges a fixed fee for a winch or aerotow, then about 70p per minute of flight, with the first 30 mins free during winter months.

Aerotow is £35 per launch, so if I had, say, 3 aerotow launches in one day then that's already over £100 and that's before the per minute charge!

Or is it more common to have a mixture of winch/aerotow?

[astir 8]

Bless your sweet innocence Backpacker. If only gliders only cost the price of tyre wear to operate!

Depreciation? You've got to buy the glider, or make provision for an eventual replacement

Insurance? Especially on a club training two seater - several thousand pounds a year.

Paperwork for the annual inspection even if volunteers do the work.

Wearing parts - release hooks etc

Minor repair materials

Periodic fabric replacement if it has fabric

Then there are all the costs of running a gliding club - airfield rental, maintenance (grass cutting), hangar & building rental or upkeep. Electricity, water, taxes.

Launch equipment and ground vehicle repair and operation

They all have to be paid for.

Normally by a combination of annual subscriptions, flying fees (glider rental) and launch fees (plus bar profits!). Private glider & trailer parking charges.

It's just up to the club how they divide up those charges. If they don't charge a rate per minute on the club gliders, then the other costs have to be higher.

The money has to come from somewhere!!

[cockney steve]

If you have a look at "shareoplanes"on offer, you will find that the standing charge is as much as that hypothetical day's gliding, add hourly flying-rate +fuel or wet-rate (includes fuel) and i'd guessthe shareoplane would cost~ 4 x the cost of gliding.

As the sages have pointed out, you are highly unlikely to get a winter flight where the surcharge kicks in, so, you can safely say the maximum cost per flying-hour = 2 launch-costs if towed , alternatively, about 4 winch-launch charges.
You may spend 8 hours at the field, but the figures say you will manage less than 2 hours flying in that time.

Why not budget a month's flying-spend....maybe you'll blow it all in one day, then have to "sit-out" the rest of the month......but, more usually, if your figures are sensible, you'll get days where you spend well over the amount "allocated" and others where weather frustrates you and all the cash in the world cannot buy a change in the weather-pattern (but you could go to where it is more favourable, if money was no object.)

[davydine]

"
Aerotow is £35 per launch, so if I had, say, 3 aerotow launches in one day then that's already over £100 and that's before the per minute charge!

Or is it more common to have a mixture of winch/aerotow?

I would say it is more common to mix winch and aerotow, with the emphasis on winch. The club I flew from was winch only and you paid for glider hire from take off to touch down.

The standard was that you arrived at the club and put your name on the flying list, then you helped out with launching and retrieving gliders, keeping the log and retrieving cables until it was your turn to fly. Then you would have two winch launches back to back (unless you had a longer soaring flight, in which case it was just one). Once you had completed your flights you could put your name down again and repeat the process, but it usually got dark before my name got back to the top so usually just 2 flights per day.

If aerotowing then it was as above but you would only have 1 flight at a time, however some clubs may be different.

If winch launch is £8 and glider hire £0.70 then bank on 2 flights per day at about £15 per flight maybe the odd day with double that.

My journey to solo was 48 launches and 9hours and 4 minutes air time. So the average flight time was 11 minutes. All but 3 of these flights were winch launch, so the average price was just over £15 per flight in todays money

[BackPacker]

Bless your sweet innocence Backpacker. If only gliders only cost the price of tyre wear to operate!

Don't be so condescending. Obviously there's a whole ledger full of costs that need to be paid for, eventually. I bet you haven't even named half of them. My point is just that virtually none of these costs (and actually none in your list) are related to actual airtime of the gliders. As far as the club is concerned, a 6 minute flight will cost exactly the same as a 30 minute flight. Sure, there are costs associated with the flight itself (fuel for the winch or the tug for instance) but these are per-flight costs, not per-minute costs.

How the club divides up all the annual costs that are being made, across the number of flights and number of hours flown is mostly a political matter. Some clubs charge a flat membership fee which covers all annual costs, some may charge a weekly or daily fee to casual visitors, some may charge by the flight or by the minute, or any combination thereof.

[Rocket2]

BP - if your club has any SZD gliders (Puchaz / Juniors etc) then there are 50, 100 & 150 hour inspections to budget for (100 hours per annum are easily reached on a club Puchaz) let alone the 2000 hour (IIRC) inspections.

[BackPacker]

That's what I said. The only real cost associated with airtime are the cost of 50-hour inspections and such. At my club, these are done by volunteers, so there's no direct monetary cost.

The only other thing I could possibly think of, that is directly related to airtime is any "lifed" items, that need to be replaced/overhauled/whatever after x hours of airtime. This is quite common in the powered world, but I have no idea if there are any gliders that have the same issues.

[Andrewgr2]

Thanks to EASA hooks are now lifed. I think, at 2000 operations. I understand the hook is deemed to be operated if the release is pulled - so that includes checking operation before flight. Similarly, the aerotow hook is operated on each launch even if it's a winch launch so it's using up its 'life'! Crazy!

Clubs have to get their income from somewhere, and making a time based charge for using the asset seems reasonable to me. If there was no charge and someone could take a launch and sit in the glider all day, the club wouldn't make much contribution towards its costs. There would also be a lot of unhappy people on the ground waiting for flights in what is, inevitably, a limited resource. Having said which, some clubs I've flown at limit soaring charges to, say, 2 hours, for approved cross country and 5 hour duration attempts.

[phiggsbroadband]

Quote...
Thanks to EASA hooks are now lifed. I think, at 2000 operations.


Let me guess, that was thought up by someone who sells Release Hooks... ?


.

[astir 8]

Mr Tost himself. Who has a virtual monopoly on release hooks these days.:(


Whereas "Ottfur" hooks fitted to older British gliders are not lifed but are simply inspected "on condition":)

[BackPacker]

Just out of curiosity, how large a job is that? Do you have to laminate in a whole new hook mechanism, or just replace the "snap"?

[xtophe80]

No composite work is needed.
There are 2 or 3 bolts to fix the hook and 1 to attach the cable.
So simple but a lot of time and temper can be lost because the access to the hooks can be bad.

[BackPacker]

Yeah, I suspected as much. It's one of those jobs where you need to bring your six-year old nephew to the club, and promise him a nice day out, or a ton of icecream, provided he helps you out with this little job.

[effortless]

Just been watching someone ridge riding above Clayton. Lucky b*gger.

[glider12000]

Yup the guys at Southdowns are lucky to be running up and down the ridge today.

Worth checking the ladder later today for their tasks and times..

[Rod1]

Flyaways - notice you are East Mids based - so am I. Send me a PM if you fancy a trip round the local area in an SEP.

Rod1
Ex Glider pliot

[RatherBeFlying]

I've heard stories of hooks being sent for recondition and returned with no apparent evidence of anything done to the hook.

But it does come back with an EASA form and an invoice:p

A CG hook comes in handy as you can use the back release for ground retrieve; so, theoretically only two operations per aerotow flight -- release check and release in the air.

Well, that's provided the hooker up knows how to do the back release; so. four per flight.