The Queen strips an Army Major of his MC

[NutLoose]

It appears he wrote his own recommendation... One just hopes those that may have deserved the award get it.

The Queen strips military 'hero' of bravery medal over fake battle reports - Home News - UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-queen-strips-military-hero-of-bravery-medal-over-fake-battle-reports-9788820.html)

[Secret1]

This kind of dishonesty is not uncommon in the Army, according to 2 retired majors who are attending the same event as myself this weekend.

[jayteeto]

Very sad, he now lives forever as a fake. Trouble is, he walked the walk in afghan. Anyone who does a tour deserves respect, what on earth was he thinking???

[Two's in]

So the real story was he had classified docs and ammo at his home, once that investigation was under way the rest came out. And yes, there are literally thousands of Army officers walking around with false gallantry awards because Iraq and Afghanistan were obviously such easy deployments. Great example of both (a) conflation, and (b) correlation not equalling causation there Secret.

[Tankertrashnav]

There has been a provision to order the forfeiture of the Military Cross since its introduction in 1914. I have no idea how many have been forfeited since then, but I am sure that some of the 50,000 odd crosses awarded in the 100 years of its life must have been returned.

A similar provision exists for forfeiture of the Victoria Cross, and up to 1920 there had been 8 cases of VCs being forfeited, one after the recipient was convicted of bigamy! However in that year King George V expressed strong objections to this practice and in fact none has been forfeited since then. He was reputed to have said that even if he were standing on the gallows, a man should not be deprived of his Victoria Cross.

I think it would be a highly unlikely situation to come up now, but nevertheless should it ever arise a very difficult decision would be faced by The Queen, or whoever advises her in these matters, whether or not to go against the precedent set by her grandfather.

Two's in - literally thousands? Really? I can't believe that. I assume you are talking about the US Army, as total numbers of British awards for both conflicts do not come to anything like that figure - barely in 3 figures, I would guess.

[Basil]

Indi:
The judge at Colchester Military court said Armstrong had demonstrated a “cavalier attitude” to handling dangerous material.
Not entirely unprecedented.

DM:
Armstrong is believed to have declined to appeal and offered to voluntarily decline the award, provided there was no publicity.
So, who broke that part of the agreement?

As a one time 'cold warrior', I agree with the "walked the walk in afghan. Anyone who does a tour deserves respect" comment.

[Danny42C]

Nutloose,

In one of my past Posts (around Page 150 on the "Pilots Brevet in WWII" Thread) I tell the tale of a Wg. Cdr. Nicholson, a fighter pilot who got a VC on his own unsupported statement of events in much the same way.

But in his case there was no suggestion of fraud, and he was put up for the award by his superiors (I believe he was a F/Lt at the time), not by himself.

[onetrack]

I'll quietly wager that for every military bravery award handed out, there's probably another three that should have been handed out - but weren't, because of no witnesses, inadequate witnesses, dead witnesses, and evidence destroyed by other war activities.
Possibly the greatest travesty of all was the tendency in the earlier years, to hand out awards to officers, rather than the OR's who actually earnt them.

There are probably some of the most incredible bravery stories that have never been told because there were no survivors, or the survivors didn't survive long enough to tell their story.
I often wonder what went on, on the HMAS Sydney in November 1941, of bravery that has never been revealed.

It really is a shame that people who have trod in war zones and faced the enemy, and who have run the gauntlet of fire and potential fire, and the risk of mines, IED's, and the countless ways that combat zones create personal stress - then try to make it appear they were superior to everyone else who stood alongside them.
Their behaviour does offer pointers that these people have major inferiority complexes, and perhaps Walter Mitty complexes as well, that rule their lives.

[dervish]

I read the Independent report and there's nothing in it that isn't common place, although the ammunition at home bit is silly of him. Classified docs at home? MoD wouldn't function without it. A senior officer's "leadership" being deemed more worthy than the actual deed by a junior? Gongs are rationed and at a certain level it's more important the Regiment gets one. It has always been so. There's got to more to this story?

[gr4techie]

Is it any different to getting a recommendation off your "best mate", while the "not so popular guy" would not get such a glowing write up for the same action?

Wasn't there a Fairey Battle with a crew of 3... The 2 commissioned got a posthumous VC while the LAC rear gunner did not?

[stilton]

They investigated him for FIVE years ?

[gijoe]

This is already following the gentleman concerned around - I worked with him last year until the organisation found out about this...then he wasn't working there any more.

I think he probably regrets it.

[gijoe]

'This kind of dishonesty is not uncommon in the Army, according to 2 retired majors who are attending the same event as myself this weekend.'

...that, however, is probably bolleaux.

[Pontius Navigator]

So the real story was he had classified docs and ammo at his home,

I suspect that there will be very few officers, certainly senior ones, that don't have "classified" documents on computer o r paper at home. For a start, even the most mundane documents have been Restricted.

In the past it has been easier to use one's own computer rather than often antiquated service machines.

A good erase program is essential.

[barnstormer1968]

gijoe

Why are you so dismissive ?
'This kind of dishonesty' is becoming more and more common throughout the British forces I'm afraid. Living also in ARRSE land as I do I quite familiar with lots of similar tales of all three services. What makes fraud easy in modern times is the fact that service personnel have access to their own home computers, service computer terminals, home scanners and printers and it's quite easy to scan and manufacture paperwork from qualifications to promotions etc.

Greed is often a motive for this kind of fraud, but with regards to qualifications the inferiority complex idea mentioned above is just so right.........
While there are fake SAS men found there are rarely fake clerks found :)

[Madbob]

Fake medal citation.....sounds the same as pilots never being known (caught) making false entries in their log books to claim "experience" they never had.:=:=:=

The moral is same.......

MB

[PapaDolmio]

Rounding up to the nearest 15 minutes on a Gr4 Sqn a few years ago to ensure Cft was achieved?

[Roadster280]

In the past it has been easier to use one's own computer rather than often antiquated service machines.

A good erase program is essential.

Now this winds me up. Who determines the erase program is good? Who makes sure that while the documents are on your own computer, there is controlled access to them? Who makes sure that no-one else gets into your network to access the machine holding the classified info? Who makes sure that your teenage kids don't borrow the USB drive you put the document on, and take it to school?

The answer is no-one. At least no-one with the authority or qualification to do so. None of that happens and so the information is thereby compromised. Granted, a RESTRICTED copy of say, routine orders offers very low level intelligence, but intelligence none the less. Anyone who has a SECRET document on their own machine needs to go to jail, frankly.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[NutLoose]

I would be surprised if Military computers were not using the SSD self destructing hard drives these days.

In case you are unaware


http://securedrives.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=75

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFi2c73ugyg from 2.20 on is where she triggers it.

[Treble one]

Danny 42C, sir,

I had the pleasure of attending a lecture/talk by James Nicholson's great nephew ( I think that was the connection, although there definitely was a family connection) also James Nicholson, a couple of years ago.

I'm sure everyone knows the tale of how Flt Lt Nicholson was awarded his VC, in fact JN's story was told almost word for word as I had previously heard it from Wg Cdr Tom Neil (who was JN's colleague and wingman on 249 Sqn), but JN junior had something of great interest. A copy of the citation written for the medal.

I was quite surprised to see that Flt Lt Nicholson was written up for a DFC, only for both Dowding and Park to recommend a VC (they both had annotated the citation accordingly).

All the best
TO

[Pontius Navigator]

Roadster, neither proposing or recommending, but offering an informed opinion. Hopefully it has changed now but we had one officer to Strike who would send out confidential documents but omit the grading.

Nutty, you surely jest. The MoD is one of the slowest adopters of new technology. They wait for at least 12 months before considering a change. I don't know the OS being used but suspect OS 7.

With the network the PC storage will be at the data centre so reasonably secure a nd USB disabled.

[VinRouge]

a RESTRICTED copy of say, routine orders offers very low level intelligence, but intelligence none the less.Might want to have a look at the new government security classification system, as well as look up what you can do on a home PC, as well as transmit via email.

RESTRICTED doesnt exist any more...

link (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/251480/Government-Security-Classifications-April-2014.pdf)

[Pontius Navigator]

VR, RTFQ, we were discussing the galloping major and his computer from 5 years ago. We were not discussing security today.

IIRC a security evasion was to remove the classification (for the purist nothing is classified anymore), email the document home, then reinstate the grading.

PS
Roadster is not in UK nor subject to UK rules.

[tucumseh]

Thank you Vin for that link. Interesting that Restricted and Confidential don't exist anymore. Keen MoD watchers will KNOW that this will be used as an excuse to burn embarrassing Restricted and Confidential papers!

The new regs seem comprehensive but, as ever, the implementation will be variable simply because MoD doesn't have the resources.

I agree with other posters about people holding MoD papers of whatever classification on home PCs. In the late 90s it was common to be instructed to conduct entire programmes at home, in the evening and at weekends, and the raft of files this meant carrying back and forth, and electronic versions on PCs, was completely ignored. Especially after the move to AbbeyWood. Security was laughable, with contractors who were bidding for work being given blanket access to our new IT system. Each time I left a job I simply asked IT to give me a backup of all my work and they handed me a CD. This was in effect the main backup, because ABW's own backup system failed regularly, with years of data lost at a stroke. I retain all my home e-mail backups going back to when I first got a PC and I'm pretty sure if I dug deep enough I've got many e-mails FROM MoD referring to secret and devious subjects. I once asked if I was liable if I didn't delete it securely and they said no, the MoD sender was. But I'm not sure they understood the question. A nightmare.

[NutLoose]

Any men in black Omegas knocking at the door Tucumseh and asking for their secrets back yet?

[tucumseh]

Any men in black Omegas knocking at the door Tucumseh and asking for their secrets back yet?

Last time they "lost" all their files on one of my old programmes they asked me out to lunch. But did get a contractor to pay. :oh:

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

Wasn't there a Fairey Battle with a crew of 3... The 2 commissioned got a posthumous VC while the LAC rear gunner did not?

Yes there was. I cannot remember the exact details now but I seem to recall that the two front enders were deemed to have done whatever they did out of bravery, but the tail gunner was considered to have had no input into the action. He was just along for the ride so to speak!

Aaron.

[Hangarshuffle]

The way the man was treated by the newspapers and media was disgraceful. He didn't deserve that. I couldn't even be bothered to pry into the story. So he received a medal which later was withdrawn, its not, in the present scheme of things, a big deal. Hope he has gone outside and moved on with his life, quite frankly.

[izod tester]

12 Sqn Fairey Battle, 12 May 1940. 6 Battles were tasked to bomb bridges over the Albert Canal. Fg Off Garland pilot, Sgt Gray Navigator, LAC Reynolds was the Gunner. Apparently, LAC Reynolds was deemed to have "not been in a decision making position".

[MPN11]

LAC Reynolds only option would have been to bail out, and be Court Martialled for cowardice. Sad but true ...the guys at the front earn the medals on these occasions. I think things got better for the AG fraternity later, when they were being stitched by Luftwaffe night fighters [and other hairy events in those dark skies over Occupied Europe].

As for the former RA major ... on a scale of 1>>TotalPrat, I think I know where he sits. ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

MPN, As BEagle keeps telling us, no stick no vote. Many aircraft captains were awarded gongs with the SLF rarely recognized. I wonder who did the citations as they were probably not present.

[Tankertrashnav]

So he received a medal which later was withdrawn, its not, in the present scheme of things, a big deal

Have to disagree with that. For his own self-aggrandisement he contrived, by deceit, to be awarded a decoration which many others before him have been awarded for their bravery. Many of them are, or were, modest men (and now women of course) who played down their gallantry. He was the opposite. His actions belittled the award and thus would have belittled the other recipients if action had not taken to cancel the award.

I personally have no sympathy whatsoever for the man - I think he deserves all the public contempt that has been heaped upon him.

The classified document business I think is totally irrelevant to the false claim for the MC, and I have no comment to make about that.

[Tankertrashnav]

P-N Can you make space for a PM I've sent you?

[orca]

A very interesting debate about crew members who were undeniably present yet not fufilling a role that ultimately determined where the aircraft went, nor what it did.

How would this line of thought run if we were talking about a warship? Should the entire crew earn an award in similar circumstances?

Not designed to be inflammatory - more a useful extrapolation.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, done.

Orca, that would have been relevant to my father in law. I don't think any gongs were awarded as the action was a disaster where his force illuminated his ship and they in turn illuminated the flag ship. The Germans sank both.

There were lots of brave actions that night, including another destroyer that remained to rescue survivors. As it was wartime and a major disaster late in the war it was played down.

To answer your question, say a collective award like Malta GC, or perhaps issue MiD to everyone that didn't qualify for the major award.

I knew a nav rad who had an MiD. I don't know the circumstances but he was on 543 and did post-Grapple sampling etc etc. I must try and find if my uncle, who was mentioned in Wynn' s book got one.

[Party Animal]

Tankertrashnav - I'm on your side - 100% :D

[Tankertrashnav]

How would this line of thought run if we were talking about a warship? Should the entire crew earn an award in similar circumstances?

Certainly in the case of the old Distinguished Service Medal (the navy gallantry award for ratings) the award was often decided by ballot after a succesful ship's action. I once owned a DSM which had been awarded to a cook who was a crew member of a warship supporting the Normandy landings, and whose name had come out of the hat. The medal came with a fascinating diary, and apparently during most of the action the guy was down below baking bread! So why not give him a DSM, arguably a constant supply of sarnies was nearly as important as a constant supply of shells!

Unit citations are mainly an American idea, although these have been awarded to British Forces, notably the Glosters, who were awarded theirs in Korea by the Americans and subsequently wore a blue patch on their uniforms to commemorate the fact.

[goudie]

With regard to awarding a medal to the whole ships company, battalion or every aircrew member for bravery in action, then,
To quote from 'The Gondoliers'
'When everyone is somebody, then no one's anybody.'

As for the ex major, deserved all he got!

[Pontius Navigator]

Goudie. While that seems true, consider, everyone that serves in the theatre gets a medal. Some, closer to the action, get a rosette as well.

Where a unit is in action, say HMS Liverpool in the Med, then there is a world of difference between my aunt serving in Cairo and in action at sea. If the captain be deemed worthy of an honour so too should all the followers. Drawing lots might satisfy the top needy but cheese off the indians. I know, been there at both ends. The last had this young woman 'attack' me spitting feathers.

Rosettes, bars, MiD oak leaf or whatever would signify special service.

[izod tester]

There are precedents for giving everyone who participates in a battle either a medal or a clasp. The Waterloo Medal was given to every soldier of the British Army (including Kings German Legion) who took part in any or all of the Battles of Ligny, Quatre Bras or Waterloo. The Navy gave a clasp for each action any sailor or marine took part in to be attached to the ribbon of the Naval General Service Medal (231 separate clasps were issued). If that had been perpetuated, then clasps for participation in each action for which a Battle Honour was awarded could perhaps have been issued. However, except for Nelson who was awarded the clasp for Trafalgar, clasps have not been awarded posthumously.

[goudie]

PN Yes you are correct. I didn't make it clear that I meant, a medal for a particular act of bravery, as opposed to a campaign medal. Even I have one of those!

[NutLoose]

Is it still a requirement of an officer to witness an act of bravery and recommend an award?

One could argue if that is the case and this chap wrote himself up for something that wasn't due, then the chances of an officers award being falsified over an enlisted mans is greater.

[The Oberon]

Even campaign medals can be "Tailored to fit"

Because they didn't go far enough South, tanker fleet ground crew only qualified for the basic South Atlantic Medal, no rosette. Quite late on in the campaign, 6, not 5, bodies were seen walking out to a Victor scheduled to do the short slot. The extra crew member was recognised as being one of the two Victor SENGOs present on Ascension. "Oh, he is doing airborne fault investigation" was the story. There was no fault history, the 700 had been signed off and the Captain had accepted the A/C with no limitations. They were back 2 hours later with SENGO having gone far enough South to qualify for a rosette.

[vascodegama]

I doubt it for 2 reasons :

Firstly the medal criteria were not decided at that point

Secondly in a 2 hour slot they would not have gone far enough South for the rossette.

[The Oberon]

Vasco, I may have been wrong about the 2 hours but I am sure about the rest.


I was present at the crew-in, a rosette was sported post medal presentation and I did say that the flight occurred late in the campaign.

[NutLoose]

I look at that like cheating at sport or in life generally, the only person you are fooling is yourself.

[Pontius Navigator]

Guessing, but if the medal criteria viz medal/rosette had not been determined, is it possible that those on ASI thought they wouldn't qualify?

[NutLoose]

So why not give him a DSM, arguably a constant supply of sarnies was nearly as important as a constant supply of shells

To true, was it not on Canberra during the Falklands War that someone took it upon himself to supply hot bacon butties and drinks out to incoming helicopter crews sitting on the pad as they were bringing in casevacs. It's the little things in life that make the world of difference.


.

[thing]

It's the little things in life that make the world of difference.Absolutely. We used to have a bottle of iced water ready for the bona jocks in Belize which we gave them as soon as they taxied into the hide and opened the lid after a sortie. It was worth it just to see the look of pleasure on their sweaty mugs as they downed it. How long does it take to bung a bottle of water in the freezer? It's just a little thoughtfulness that makes someone's day.

[Pontius Navigator]

My sweet moment came on return to a wet, windy,December after 3 months in the far east when our fly cdr greeted us and draped my greatcoat over me.

There was more to that than the gesture, my greatcoat had been in my wardrobe at Coningsby but the wing had relocated to Cottesmore.

[DC10RealMan]

I read recently that a museum are going to call their restored Fairey Battle aircraft which was recovered from Norway "The Roy Reynolds Fairey Battle" to at least acknowledge this young mans sacrifice.

[ExRAFRadar]

Oberon - the man is a Walt. Plain and simple.

I suppose if one were to ask him what he done to get the rosette he would reply "Can't say old Boy, all a bit hush-hush"

Just checked myself - is there any chance this Sengo went well out of his way to get things done down there and this was the Aircrews way of saying thanks ?