Do you need to swap your JAA for EASA for an SEP issue?

[Dan the weegie]

Hi,

I have a colleague who has a valid UK issued JAR ATPL. He has some other expired third world licence (NZ) with an expired SEP on it it but never had one on his UK ATPL, he now has a burning desire to get his SEP and mess around in the grass with the rest of us ;).
2 questions I have that I can't remember the answer to. I'll ask FCL but it's the kind of thing folks on here might have seen before and the answer will be quicker, even if it isn't official :).

Is he likely to need to send his ATPL and logbooks off for the issue of an SEP?
Will he need to trade in his JAA licence for an EASA one?

Any experience appreciated, either way it'll be up to FCL but a bit of a pain to trek to Gatwick for an SEP issue :).

Thanks in advance :)

[BackPacker]

AFAIK, any addition of a rating (be it a type/class rating such as SEP, or an IR) triggers the conversion to an EASA license.

[Mach Jump]

Is he likely to need to send his ATPL and logbooks off for the issue of an SEP?

No. He can do the paperwork online now, after completing the required training and Test, with the assistance of an ATO/RTF (Flying School)

Will he need to trade in his JAA licence for an EASA one?

Yes.


Here's an interesting thing, though.

When EASA Part FCL was introduced, your colleague's ATPL became, by default, an EASA ATPL and, so long as it is still valid, (ie. not past it's 5 year 'Use By Date') it embodies, amongst other things, the privileges of a LAPL.

This means that an alternative to adding an SEP Class Rating, with the expense of a Test, and Licence re-issue, is for your colleague to complete the rolling recency requirements of a LAPL with an ATO/RTF, and he can then continue to exercise LAPL privileges unsupervised, so long as he maintains LAPL recency.

Just a thought. ;)


MJ:ok:

Ps. I think the Kiwis will take exception to being referred to as a 'third world' nation! :eek:

[Level Attitude]

Agree with what MJ has said above but:

FCL.135.A LAPL(A)
(a) The privileges of an LAPL(A) shall be limited to the class and variant of aeroplanes or TMG in which the skill test was taken. This limitation may be removed when the pilot has completed in another class the requirements below:They would need to take an LAPL Skill Test otherwise there is no aircraft in which they would be entitled to exercise the privileges.

FCL.140.A LAPL(A) — Recency requirements
(a) Holders of an LAPL(A) shall only exercise the privileges of their licence when they have completed, in the last 24 months, as pilots of aeroplanes or TMG:
(1) at least 12 hours of flight time as PIC, including 12 take-offs and landings; and
(2) refresher training of at least 1 hour of total flight time with an instructor.Holders of an EASA ATPL or CPL are not holders of an LAPL. They have other Licences (which contain LAPL Privileges). Therefore, it would seem, according to Part-FCL, that the LAPL Recency Requirements do not apply to ATPL or CPL Licence holders.

[PURPLE PITOT]

Similar situation. JAA ATPL ( now grandfathered as an EASA ) sep/instructor lapsed by about 10 years.

Still have a lifetime uk ppl, but no valid ratings.

Options?

[Mach Jump]

FCL.135.A LAPL(A)
(a) The privileges of an LAPL(A) shall be limited to the class and variant of aeroplanes or TMG in which the skill test was taken

They would need to take an LAPL Skill Test otherwise there is no aircraft in which they would be entitled to exercise the privileges.


Hmmmm.....:uhoh:

That would mean that anyone converting to a LAPL from another licence would have to complete a Skill Test before they could exercise it's privileges, and be subject to the limitation.

Or could it be argued that, if they were not required to take a Skill Test to obtain the privileges, then they are not subject to the limitation?

Also, does 'variant' mean the aircraft type (eg. C152) they used for the Test?:eek:


MJ:ok:

[Mach Jump]

Purple Pilot.

If you still have a valid JAR ATPL, you are in the same position as Dan, and all the above applies to you also.

If you actually have a new EASA ATPL, all the above still applies, but your expired ratings will have been put on the back, (inactve side) of the Licence and, to restore them to the active side of the Licence, you will have to complete the renewal requirements with an ATO/RTF, the Flight test/s and then apply to the CAA to have them renewed.

Alternatavely, you can renew the SEP on your old lifetime CAA PPL at an ATO/RTF, without having to apply to the CAA for the renewal, but that would only be valid on EASA aircraft until 8th of April next year, and just 'Annex II' aircraft after that.

If you wanted to continue flying EASA aircraft after that, you would have to transfer the SEP to your ATPL, at the same time, converting to an EASA ATPL, or convert your old PPL to an EASA PPL, or LAPL, but in that case, you would have to give up your EASA ATPL, as you cannot hold more than one EASA Licence for the same Catergory of aircraft at the same time.


MJ:ok:

[BackPacker]

Just to add, if your license needs to be converted to EASA, you need to be careful. Make sure you have all your ducks in a row, in the same row, facing the same direction, standing at attention. And if you're not sure about a certain duck, make sure you contact the CAA beforehand to check.

Due to various issues my conversion took nine months - mostly because the CAA took its time responding to my questions by e-mail: 40 days on average.

First of all, what you need to fill in is form SRG\1104. Read the form carefully. Obviously your base license should not be expired or anything, and you need at least one valid type or class rating. Those are the easy and obvious things.

Your medical needs to be administered by the same *AA as your license. This means that your medical may need to be transferred between countries. This requires a SOLI (State Of License Issue) procedure which can get very lengthy. There is a CAA form but you need to contact the other *AA or your own AME for details.

The CAA needs to have a current (non-expired) LPE (License Proficiency in English) on file, with at least a level 4. You can get this from your friendly local flight examiner, assuming you qualify for a level 6. If you don't qualify for a level 6 you're in a bit of a problem since the CAA is very, very picky wrt. the language institutes that they accept certificates from. I did an official LPE exam at an official LPE language institute in the Netherlands (the CAA examiner route was unfortunately not available to me at the time), got a six, but the CAA would not recognize this. Took me weeks to sort it out.

If your JAA license says "Language Proficiency: English" now, then most likely this refers to the grandfathered level 4 that everybody got when the LPE requirements came into force. That level 4 is expired now. So that text is nowhere near sufficient for an EASA license and technically speaking you may actually be flying illegally already. Somewhere in the last few years a CAA examiner has to have ticked the correct box on a revalidation form, and sent that to the CAA, for your LPE to be registered properly. And since forms do get lost along the way, it's best to phone the CAA to check your LPE status, well before you submit the paperwork for the EASA conversion.

If you think you qualify for additional ratings that were not a rating under JAA (such as aerobatics, mountain flying and a few others), make sure you apply for these ratings at the same time as you apply for the EASA license. It costs nothing now, but it will cost you significantly if you add them later. Various ratings have various grandfathering schemes so it's not that hard to get them. (For aerobatics for instance, submit your BAeA Proficiency Card and you're sorted.)

Upon reception of your shiny new license, check it carefully. When they issued mine they conveniently forgot to include my aerobatics rating, despite me adding a cover letter that I was applying for one, and despite ticking the correct box on SRG\1104.

Rumor has it that the CAA counter service at Gatwick is very, very much improved. If you have all your ducks in a row, then you can walk out the door with your new license inside two hours. But you have to have all your ducks in a row. If you arrive at their counter without some sort of valid proof of LPE 6, for instance, they will not and cannot help you.

[Dan the weegie]

OooOoookay. I think I understand

So either he has to,
Do the SEP to add to his ATPL which means trading in for an EASA one, all of which can be done online or in a couple of hours at Gatwick.

Or

He can separately apply for a LAPL, for which his Class 1 Medical is already valid with an SEP rating on it but that includes all the restrictions applied to a LAPL with regards to flying those types, then when it's time to renew his JAA ATPL he will change to an EASA one and include SEP as a rating...

I'll pass it on.

Purple Pitot, we're planning on doing it in the spring up in Inverness, we have a small mafia of bizjet/turboprop fruitcakes (i.e. you'd fit right in :D ). If you fancy doing it around then, PM me and we'll set things up for you up here ;)

[Level Attitude]

He can separately apply for a LAPL, for which his Class 1 Medical is already valid with an SEP rating on itNo - he cannot.
EASA do not allow pilots to hold two Licences (for the same category of aircraft) so he can have either an LAPL(A) or an ATPL(A) (which already contains LAPL Privileges within it).

NB: An LAPL does not contain Ratings. An LAPL(A) would allow flight in either an SEP or a TMG, depending in which aircraft the Test was taken. The privilege to fly the other Class may be obtained later, following additional training.

[Level Attitude]

That would mean that anyone converting to a LAPL from another licence would have to complete a Skill Test before they could exercise it's privilegesSomeone who has never taken a Skill Test in an SEP or TMG with an EASA or JAR Examiner (ie Foreign Licence Holders) - Yes

UK (pre-JAR) Skill Test - Who knows.......

[Dan the weegie]

Thanks LA so there is no avoiding the requirement to get an EASA licence from his JAA one.

Thanks all :)

[Mach Jump]

Dan.

If I were your colleague, I'd just put an SEP on my ATPL, and do the swap to an EASA ATPL at the same time, rather than rely on the very badly writen LAPL rules.

He will Have to do the EASA conversion of his ATPL sometime soon anyway, I assume, and once done it's a lifetime licence(Or until everything changes again:rolleyes:)


MJ:ok: