Do I change flight school 37hrs into training?

[Wingman1972]

Dear all
I am very new to pprune and have enjoyed reading a lot of posts,

I now have a dilemma myself and would love some advice if possible please:confused:

I have been training for my ppl for nearly two years now and I must say I am loving it and sometimes struggling and wonder if I have done the right thing,

I train at an airfield which is great, good guys no uniform for me to wear, it's relaxed, I can book slots online as and when I want, my instructor has been very understanding with me working and only being able to get in when funds and time allow,
I am approx 37 hrs into my training I am about to do my first solo nave very short 10 mile round trip
I have already done some circuit consolidation
My dilemma is my instructor has just announced he is leaving, and my other dilemma is I only have 4 months left to complete training or if I think I am correct I will have to sit all seven plus two more exams, I completed all seven cylibuses in one go in July 2013 and my worry is now that I will have to do all 9 new cylabuses at great financial loss of what I have already spent, also I am not sure if I have time to complete the rest of my training , I would just like to know if it is possible and I do wonder if I should look for a school that would cater for my needs rather than stay and hope for the best, I would appreciate any advice guys, please

[LostYetAgain]

Hi Wingman1972, and welcome to the forum.

Would it be worth sitting down with your current instructor to get his advice? As he is leaving he might be more willing to give you an honest view of the club & whether moving to another club might be beneficial for you. If you choose to stay, he should be able to recommend another instructor that he feels would be a good match for you.

Spreading out the training over a number of years isn't ideal. You will no doubt have found out that a longer gap between lessons means the next lesson contains a greater amount of revision. If you want to continue with spread out lessons, then you might consider (re)doing all the exams at the end. Check the current (EASA) rules, but under JAR-FCL you didn't need to have the exams all passed until just before the licence was issued (after the test). Clubs never told you this of course ... they liked students to start the ground school before the first solo.

Another approach you could consider is to save your pennies so you can concentrate the lessons over a much shorted period. That way you will make rapid progress through the flight exercises.

Regards

[Wingman1972]

Hey lostyetagain
Thank you for your reply
I totally agree and would say that having my training spread out over a long period of time has certainly made things difficult to remember each time I go back
I remember having a 4-5 month gap over the last winter months which has not helped at all
I now wish my instructor would have insisted I made it at least once a week or fortnightly that way I would be much further in,
but having the option to come and go as you please made me very relaxed about the whole thing until I had to go solo, I was told I needed to complete my air law exam before this could be achieved, I looked into the exams and found a ground school which offered me to stay for the week and complete all seven exams in one go which I done and passed, I now realize that if I do not complete my ppl within 18 months of my pass then these exams with the now extra 2 syllabus will have to be retaken :-(
I am fortunately now in a position to take the next four months off work and finish up but I do not think there is a instructor available at my airfield to be there 3/4/ times a week to train me? (weather permitting too) I need to check this for sure though, I do wonder if training 3/4/5 times a week might be overdoing things and take the fun out of it too?
I will be seeing my instructor for the last time next week and find out for sure if my needs can be met, I appreciate what you have said and will take it on board thank you for you reply mate
Kindest regards

[Mach Jump]

Hi Wingman. The situation isn't quite as bad as you think.

All the Theoretical Knowledge Exams must be completed over a period of not more than 18 months, but then you have 2 years from the date of passing your last Exam to apply for a licence.

This means that you have until somtime in July 2015 to apply for your PPL. Still not enough time at the rate you are going, so what you need right now, is a clear plan of what you need to do to complete your flight training, and a more focused attitude towards getting it done.

This may require a change of school to achieve your goal, or your present one may just need a kick up the ass to impress on them what you need. :)

[Wingman1972]

Hi Mach Jump
Thank you for your reply
I have to say I seem to have got it the wrong way around thinking it was 18 months after the last exam!
This does take some pressure off for sure and you are exactly right I do need to get on with it and have a more focused attitude to what I have to do to get this done,
I am going to talk to my instructor on my next lesson and find out if it is achievable to get my ppl within the timeframe available!
If not then I will be looking to move to another flying school,
I do not really want to leave as I am familiar with the airfield, and the area, and friendly with the staff
Also I am familiar with all the different PA28's they use, but if they cannot cater for my needs then I will be looking to go elsewhere,
I very much appreciate your input Mach Jump :-) this forum is the best place for help and advice for sure :-D
Thank you
Kindest regards

[9 lives]

Wingman,

You will find that flying is a series of "tests". They range from an exam, to a "test" of your ability to simply return the aircraft, 'cause it's such a perfect day for flying, and you're enjoying it so much!

As said, stretching out your training over such a period is not ideal, but we understand it happens. The calendar requirements for rewriting the exams could be viewed as a deadline of sorts, or don't worry about it, and go and rewrite the exams, they're only tests. If you're keeping up with the topics, you're increase in experience should make the exams more easy to write - or, you really do need to study for them again! ;) You'll have to agree that your first flights after a long time away involved some re do, of lessons previously learned - so might your ground studies - no big deal....

Welcome to PPRuNe, and the world of aviation. You'll find constantly in aviation that someone's done that before, and there's probably a rule about it. Understanding the rules is good, turning them to your advantage is nice, but if you can't, just go with it. To quote Bader: Regulation is for the guidance of wise men, and the obedience of fools". The regulator thinks a student could become calendar stale on ground study after a number of years. A wise man might agree....

[cockney steve]

This may require a change of school to achieve your goal, or your present one may just need a kick up the ass to impress on them what you need. Maybe,wingman, this is the kick up the a55 thatyou needed to concentrate your efforts on the practical side ofobtaining a PPL.
you did well to polish off all your theory exams in one fell swoop.
the hours you need to fly,until your GST are a major expense...one assumes thatas you have a large employment -gap,you have sufficient fundsfor completing .

Alternatively,a modest increase in your house -mortgage is always the cheapest form of borrowing.
Oddly enough,credit Cards are now viable,since the greedy bankers started charging obscene rates for overdrafts( you get protection with CC's as well!

IF your school takes on a new instructor with whom you "gel", you need a determined effort to fly as often as you can....winter is upon us and there will be many cancellation days, so carpe diem and all that :)
They have a vested interest in keeping you training as long as possible.in fact, mr Cynic here would suggest that ,at37 hours, you're in up to the taters, but have to keep going over old ground every time and thus pad the hours.

I'll repeat other's wise words, TALK to the instructor...he's made a good wage from you, it's business, he "owes" you a few minutes to confirm your quickest and most cost-effective way to complete your training
A change of school may well be in order, to a more focussed organisation.

You appear to have had a very laid-backapproach to your practical-work. You may not relish the discipline of "cramming" your last training hours, but remember, once you have that "ticket" you can fly when and where you want to ,and it'll be cheaper!

Up and at it! :}

[Rod1]

If you can take the time off, find a school in a part of the world with good weather and get them to plan a completion course for you - probably take around 2 weeks. Get the license out of the way and then the fun and the learning really starts. Ironically this approach will probably save you money because of the reduced gap between flights.

Rod1

[Rhino25782]

I do wonder if training 3/4/5 times a week might be overdoing things and take the fun out of it too?

I second what Rod is saying.

I did the exact opposite of what you did. I didn't have the patience to spread it all across years, I wanted the license ASAP. So I went to California and did all practical training in four weeks. There is many others you have done this and there is many arguments AGAINST this, I don't want to recommence that debate here.

But what you should know is: Doing several lessons a week (in fact, several lessons a DAY) is not "overdoing things" at all and it is great fun. In fact, you'll be doing what you love to do (right?) all day! How can you spend the day any better than that? Of course, two lessons per day are exhausting - don't plan anything else during those days.

With your time frame and current progress, I don't even think you need to go away to avoid weather. You could find a school with good availability of instructors and do the flying on the good days to come.

But do consider going to a nice and warm country for, say, two weeks. There is schools in Spain catering to this sort of thing. Sure, getting used to a different airfield, airplane, instructor will take a bit of time - but much less time than your constant "on and off" and relearning what you forgot since the last lesson! In the end, it will make you a more CONFIDENT pilot once you're on your own! How can you fly places if you worry about "other airfields"...

(I passed my skill test "back home" and to familiarize myself with the new environment, and flying in my own country in general after training in the US, I took three familiarization lessons (1x circuits, 1x airwork, 1x local area familiarization and navigation) and the school made me do one "pre-test" with an experienced instructor. I think I could have done it in a bit less than that, too.)

Good luck!

[thing]

I'll second Rod as well. I did mine in 4 months from start to finish and a month of that was lost to bad weather. It may not suit everyone but I learn best when I'm doing something flat out. I dread to think how long it would have taken me if I had done an hour here and an hour there. It's false economy (IMO obviously) to try and spread the lessons out because of cost. Just bite the bullet, save up or borrow and do it all in one fell swoop. Ther's no getting away from the fact that it's an expensive game so make sure you can finance your post skills test flying as well.


There are plenty of places down your neck of the woods-Kemble springs to mind for one-but I've no idea what the schools are like as I'm oop north. Best of luck with it anyway; I really would go at it hammer and tongs if I were you, you will be surprised how much your flying comes on if you do three or four lessons a week. By the way, you mentioned doing a 10 mile XC? That would hardly take you out of the circuit! Are you sure it's not a XC with ten mile legs?

[Piper.Classique]

Ten miles and hardly out of the circuit. Hmm. I would be 9.5 miles from the circuit, assuming it is ten miles out then ten back, but even so that seems more like local area recce.

Some people must do large circuits?

Anyway, for the OP.
Don't rush to change. You have time to do some research first. Talk to your current instructor first, don't worry if you have to change aircraft type, it doesn't take that long to convert, especially if you combine the familiarisation flying with some cross country. Preferably out of sight of home airfield!

[thing]

Ten miles and hardly out of the circuit.

Ten mile triangle is 3.3 miles per side unless my maths has gone pear shaped.

[Rod1]

Back in 1991 I was in the same position as you. I had been ready for my Nav Ex for 3 months but the weather was not up to it (I could only fly at the weekend). Got to the point I would have to redo all the exams so went down to the south of France - actually in the Alps.

One day learning to fly the Robin DR400 (I had not flown one before),and get a feel for the mountains.
One day Dual Nav,
One day Solo Nav (bit exciting as I have no French),
one day GFT - job done - came home.

Should have made the decision to go much quicker.

Rod1

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I train at an airfield which is great, good guys no uniform for me to wear

Is it usual these days for studes to be expected to wear uniforms? :eek:

I suspect there's a large element of "three steps forward, two steps back" here as a result of the spread-out training. My advice would be to have several lessons a week, even if that means a temporary break from flying while the required funds are built up. Progress will then be much quicker, and the overall cost much less.

[phiggsbroadband]

.
Most flying schools use '1.5 hr Slots' during the day, so that the 1 hour flight has a half hour for preparation. It all depends upon how 'visible' the timetable is at your airfield... Is it marked up on a white-board? So that you can see who is doing what in each plane. Or is it just written on the back of the instructors fag-packet.


If you can see an empty slot in the afternoon, even though you have flown in the morning, ask if you can have that as well. At this time of year good flying weather is at a premium. You only have 7 hours to go before you have the 45 needed, so try and grab as much as possible before the winter months.


.

[Piper.Classique]

Actually, the OP needs to be ready for test. 45 hours is the minimum legal requirement, and as he or she is at 37 hours and no dual or solo navigation yet, and needs to meet the solo total requirement as well, it will I venture to suggest, take a little over 45 hours.
But the advice to get on with it is sound! Just not to panic yet, do a little research here and elsewhere.

[Wingman1972]

I want to thank everyone for your input guys I really do appreciate it ;-)

And thank you for your wise words step turn :-)

I still have a few lessons left with my current instructor next week,
I will be asking him advice on my current school to see if it is possible to do at least three hours or more a week there?
If not then I will be looking to go elsewhere,
The current stage I am at now is I have done five supervised navs, two of these were land always, my next lesson is my first solo nav where I am expected to fly ten miles from my airfield and then back (sorry for any confusion guys)
I'm guessing that if I get this done successfully then I am ready to do my first solo land away?
I have to agree with what you are a saying that my relaxed attitude has cost me dear in time and money too,
I run my own small business so I have found getting time away and finances a problem
But I am now in a position to fund at least four months off work so I am going to look into getting on with it for sure, until I have spoken with my instructor I won't know where yet, I have to say with the winter looming Spain does sound very appetizing lol
Thank you all so so much for the advice
I feel so much more positive and happy I can get this done,
I will keep you all posted on my progress and I feel very welcome here at pprune Thank You :-)

[Grob Queen]

Hi WIngman,

If its any help at all, I am 150 odd hours and four years into my PPL training. I have thought of changing clubs on numerous occasions, but I am still with my original one and now have three FIs and have just completed by QXC. I wish I had had several trips per week as, when I do, it (funny old thing...) clicks with me easier, and at times I have had two trips in a day and that is a great help. in fact a good pilot friend of mine said right at the start of my training, "Its the studes who do not fly at least once a week who struggle".... I understand what he means now. So you really need to fly as much as possible!!

So, you will do whatever is right for you. But I agree with all the others who say get as much flying as possible. Maybe, have you thought about going with another FI in your school? I wouldn't go with any other FI for years..and that is one of the things that probably held me back. I now have three. Two fantastic friends and another a friend. So it may be worth asking your school if you can have not only a new FI as yours is leaving, but another one two.

GQ

ps, if you like it here, try the dedicated Students Forum on the Flyer Forums. To be honest, I got a little fed up with this site and moved over there. I hardly look in here now........;):)

[Wingman1972]

Hi Grob Queen

Thank you for your reply

I have to say I am amazed at your determination!!
Wow!!! 4 years and 150 hours is serious, I remember when I first went on my first trial flight I fell in love with flying and I wanted to know how quick I could get my licence and my instructor told me it can be done in a year working around my job and finances
It is definately false economy though! And it's only now that I'm getting this kick up the ass that I realize I need to just get on with it and get it done,
I know that not everyone can afford to go training several times a week due to work commitments and finances, I'm sure all these posts here will help some people make up there mind if they can afford it,
I am not sure having lots of different instructors would suit me as I like the personnel touch and I'm sure each instructor have there own way of teaching studes? So maybe this might not help? I don't know?
We fly pa28 diesels but I started out in (petrol) versions av gas, so that was also more time spent on transition, the diesels have fadec, no carb heat, or mixture to worry about but you can only carry three persons,
I am as I said going to talk to my instructor before he leaves next week and see if they can offer a finishing package if not then it's bon voyage for me :-)

Hey best of luck with it all :-) my hat is off to you for dedication and determination

Up up and away eh ;-)

[Heston]

Another way to think about this, is to think that learning to fly is what you are doing. I mean don't worry too much about your progress, and to just get on and do what you can afford/have the time for. Eventually you will qualify and that will enable you move on to another stage of learning about flying (and learning about yourself).


So don't fret about it. Talk to your current instructor (that's a very good idea) and decide what you will emotionally feel comfortable with. If moving feels good, then do that. If staying put feels good, then do that. Only you can know.


You are buying a leisure activity. Treat it the same way you would any other leisure activity. Relax.


(Obviously I mean all this in the context of someone who actually is learning to fly for fun. Not a career.)

[phiggsbroadband]

.
Well I tried to figure out how long a Circuit really is, and depending upon length of runway, I think it could be between 5-8 miles long.


Or another way to calculate this 10 mile XC is to think how long it would take in a 100 kn aircraft... = 6 minutes.... Not my idea of an XC.
Maybe he missed a 0 off... 100 mile XC seems more likely.
( Aren't most XCs a triangular route, with two TPs?)
.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Barton, runway 27L or R, 4 statute miles for a 'correct' circuit. Can be flown tighter. Some make it more like 10 miles!

[Mach Jump]

Scroll back to post #17:

...my next lesson is my first solo nav where I am expected to fly ten miles from my airfield and then back (sorry for any confusion guys)

Not a huge XC, but a slight loosening of the string attaching the student to the base airfield, enabling him/her to practice leaving and rejoining the circuit, without getting too far away.


MJ:ok:

[Grob Queen]

I am not sure having lots of different instructors would suit me as I like the personnel touch and I'm sure each instructor have there own way of teaching studes? So maybe this might not help? I don't know?

Hey best of luck with it all :-) my hat is off to you for dedication and determination

Thanks Wingman, well, determination is certainly what I have (need...) in bucketloads and resolve to get the damned licence whatever stands in my way (and there has been a lot).

As to nmerous FIs. I was like you, for three years, I stuck to one, as hes a great friend and as you say, each FI has a different way of teaching. I used a couple of others (one of whom is a friend now as well) and although they were good, it just wasn't the same. Then, after some badgering from my FI and the folks over on the other forum ;) I decided to have a secondary FI. This has really worked as I now (funny old thing) can quite often either have two trips a week or at least when FI number 1 is not around then FI number 2 usually is (atlhtough it hasn't worked like that this month).

I understand totally your issues about different teaching methods, they do, everyone is different and perhaps are picky on different things. For instance FI number 2 really wants me to hit the numbers every time I land, whereas FI number 1 is pernickity to the point of OCD on keeping the compass on teh horizon, whereas FIs 2 and 3 are not... FI number 3 has a slightly different nav technique but its very helpful as its easier! But at 150 odd hours in, its not that much of an issue, in fact I now try a mixture of all three when i fly. For you, it may help too, as a different person may be able to pick up on something your usual chap hasn't noticed as its familiarity between you two. Also as I have become good friends with FI number one, its like two mates going flying whereas, although FI no 2 and I are becoming friends, I suppose I ..ahem...concentrate more! Mind you, ts got to the stage now where a lot of the time I don't need an FI in teh cockpit,a s I need to get solo hours in and solo confidence up!

Then enter FI number three. He is a good friend who I have known for years. An ex-RAF pilot, he also happens to be a Civvy FI. I asked him as a favour to fly with me to boost my confidence...he did, and yer know what....it worked!:) he and I flew my QXC route and the confidence boost was huge. Then he gave me the final kick via email to get up there and fly my QXC solo. The weekend after that email, I did it. So, I know having a good friend go flying with you to put you straight or give a confidence boost is not usual, but my point is, maybe TRY flying with someone else. Believe me, I didn't want to and put off flying with someone else regularly for years. Now I only wish I had done it sooner!

HOPe this helps, good luck, and PM me if you want to chat. I'll try and drop by this site more often......:)

Happy landings

Ps, how close is Bath to Brize? hmm, Wilts/Oxon.... Probably not doable for you, but it was just a thought, they have a Flying Club and i am in contact with their CFI if you were interested.

[LostYetAgain]

Wingman,

I would caution against doing several lessons a day as has been suggested. It's not something that works for everyone, and is more problematic once you get to the longer nav lessons which will require a lot more planning on your part. If you are going to try significantly increasing the frequesncy of your lessons, I would suggest starting at one lesson a day to see how you get on with that.

Having more than one instructor is fine at your stage, so long as they talk to each other about your training progress/needs. In my experience, your student notes are unlikely to provide a sufficient handover from instructor to instructor, and you really don't want to be the communication channel between them.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

In my experience, your student notes are unlikely to provide a sufficient handover from instructor to instructor, and you really don't want to be the communication channel between them.

Agree about the notes (how relevant are they anyway?), but I found having different instructors a bonus - you see more than one way of doing things and decide which is for you.

I recall never being the communication channel between instructors, but being the customer extracting what I wanted from each. The next guy would jump into the 150 I'd pre-flighted with "where are you up to? What do you want to do?".

That may be anathema to some, but I loved it. The CFI was keeping an eye on overall progress, while I got to manage my own navigation of the syllabus.

Worked for me.

Solo PDQ, PPL in a couple of hours over minimum. Taught one to be 'in charge' as well. Isn't that what Captaincy is all about?

PS: Should add it didn't come easy to me, this flying lark. And I thought it would. I was initially a nervous student and never felt really at home in the air 'till well after PPL. Flying (immediately post PPL) an aeroplane that handled properly (dH Chipmunk) as opposed to the rubbery thing I'd done the PPL on (C150) was big help with that!

To this day (35 years later) I cannot understand how so many pilots are 'OK' with the appalling handling of spam cans.

[ChickenHouse]

I confess, I am confused.

With 37 hours in training a pilot2be should be ready to fly independent of any individual FI. In contrast, at this stage she or he should have encountered the difference of maybe three FI at least. For me, the insight that flying is YOU and every FI and pilot flies an own style should have come to mind.

I remember my first switch when I was starting to believe me stupid. At about 15-20 hours I was so hard struggling to flare (as everybody?) that my FI told me to switch instructor "to keep learning what piloting really is". In the end my mistake was to assume that there is a "right" way to fly and that this correctness would be connected to some kind of procedures (when I recall, this was due to my FI being an airliner and used to follow approach procedure - at 2 miles be 800ft high at 400 ft/min descent ... which may be ok for a 737, but definitely not the right way for a C172). I switched from that airliner friend to one of these old bushies, who hardly ever looks at instruments. He taught me to "fly by butt".

I had 7 FI switches until license and I have to admit - that was one of the greatest things to have all these different ways of flying. At one of the last of my frequent checkflights with FE to document the learning progress, he was talking into my flying and when I told him to shut up I had to concentrate, he had the biggest smile and said "now you are almost ready for exam". I repeat, flying is all about YOU and YOU alone, enjoy and nurture this feeling, even at training already.

[worldpilot]

With 37 hours in training a pilot2be should be ready to fly independent of any individual FI

Well, I would say, it depends on several factors, mostly human variables, such as life experience and personal capabilities, which really boils down to motivation and skills of both the student and instructor.

Both the instructor and the student must work together to establish a sense of understanding of the flight training initiative. Each flight training must be undertaken as a unique perspective. Essentially, the flight training approach taken by the instrutor determines the success or failure of the flight training endeavor. Whatever approach is chosen by the instructor whose responsibility is to lead such an inspiring process will involve introducing and implementing systematic processes aimed at encouraging the aspirant to bring together the personality and skills necessary to successfully engage with aviation and sustain target and outcome achievement.

The ultimate target is attaining or earning a pilot certificate but it is imperative to also achieve the outcome which is having the skillset to confidently be at the controls. Most of the time the focus is on the first (get the paper or card) with the second as an afterthought.

So, it shouldn't be a surprise to see the process of becoming a pilot take longer than anticipated or expected. If the journey takes more time and effort as usual but attains the target and outcome, then the time and resources invested have served the purpose.

WP

[Heston]

Whoa! Grade A management consultant speak from Worldpilot there! ;)


But the point is good - the instructor should be able to get the best progress from his/her student by motivating appropriately and by adjusting the teaching technique to suit the student's attitudes, abilities and objectives.


And best progress shouldn't mean (IMHO) getting the qualification as soon as possible - it should mean whatever is needed to help the student to be a safe and responsible pilot.

[9 lives]

Taught one to be 'in charge' as well. Isn't that what Captaincy is all about?

I very much agree. As a pilot, you will fly different aircraft, and with different people aboard with you. A competent instructor will climb in with you, and within minutes of the onset of each phase of flight, figure out where your skills need work. Fly with different instructors.

To this day (35 years later) I cannot understand how so many pilots are 'OK' with the appalling handling of spam cans.

Thread drift warning...

I do not accept this somewhat elitist statement. EVERY airplane is a compromise in some or many ways. The biggest compromise commonly seen being toward simplicity and low cost. To this day (38 years later), I have flown 81 different types of aircraft. From this I have learned that every one lacked something the others had. Some lacked more, others lacked less. I have flown two types which were pretty well all round not very nice to fly, but they were both excellent rough runway cargo haulers, and that was what they were designed for - one being the giant spam can DC-3.

There are some truly delightful, well harmonized aircraft out there - the RV-4 comes to mind. Beautiful to fly, but you can't carry anything bigger than a lunch bag in it.

Both of my planes are massive compromises, and certainly not the nicest planes to fly, but each, in it's own way, does the job well. One is the second most prolific GA aircraft ever, and is cheap and easy to maintain and repair (if ever needed, but never had to). No vices, and when I stick a mainwheel in the mud, or snow, I can lift it out by the wing all by myself. The other is a total misery on the runway, and fairly poor in the air - just not nice to fly. It really keeps my flying skills sharp. But when you feel the keel kiss the water perfectly, and you bump the mainwheels safely up to a previously unvisited rocky shoreline, the plane has just done exactly what it was designed to do well, its compromise worked.

I've never flown a Chipmunk, though would jump at the opportunity. I'm sure that it's a delight compared to the Tiger Moth, which I know well - a compromise to get pilots well trained in that era.

So I'm OK with the appalling handling of some aircraft, the appalling performance of others, the incredible cost of some, and the hidden dark corners of others (kinda reminds me of dating). Because at the end of it, I learn which compromises I'm willing to make, and I can choose what I want. I have recently finished 75 hours of flight testing, development, and training on a Cessna 182 amphibian, whose final cost exceeded $900,000, and costs $700+ an hour to operate in its homeland. A truly magnificent plane - which I simply could never afford myself. But, for the last six years, I've compromised, and flown my amphibian, whose value is less than 10% of that 182, to many of the same places (and I've worried a lot less about scratching it on a rock!).

Pilots of the world if you're in the air, you're safe, and within your budget, be proud of of what you're flying! I've been the proud owner of a C 150 for 27 years.....

Rant over.....

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Continuing the thread drift...

Step, it's not elitist, it's a factual statement. There is absolutely no reason Mr Cessna couldn't have given his high-wing trikes ailerons that are effective and nice to use. Likewise the rudder.

I take your point about aeroplanes being compromised in order to excel at a particular role - lifting heavy cargo out of short rough strips, for instance. And I wouldn't expect Mr Boeing or Mr Airbus to put 'nice handling' very high on the design requirement; safe handling and fuel efficiency would be, though.

My comment wasn't aimed at 'working' aeroplanes such as transports, but at what most on this forum (GA) will be doing - flying for fun!

You really must try a Chippy if you get the chance - the opposite end of the handling scene to the appalling Tiger Moth (which I found to be worse than a spamcan!). But like all aeroplanes it is compromised.

It is noisy in the cockpit. There is NO room to stow anything. You will get oily hands and clothes when you pre-flight it. It has a ludicrously short range (only 18 gallons of fuel). It is expensive to maintain. During aeros (it does graceful basic manouvres superbly) it loses height due the fixed pitch prop (lots of throttling back to stay withing rev limits) and the measly 145 bhp. And it is realistically only a VFR aeroplane. Oh, and with a cruise of 90 kts it is slow.

But its handling.... is sublime! I have flown very many types, and none come close. I know of no-one who has flown one who would disagree with that. And surely, if you are 'flying for fun', for the pure joy of flight rather than to get ASAP from A to B, then sublime handling is the no.1 prerequisite?

[9 lives]

You really must try a Chippy if you get the chance - the opposite end of the handling scene to the appalling Tiger Moth (which I found to be worse than a spamcan!). But like all aeroplanes it is compromised.

I am entirely willing to believe that the Chipmunk is the nicest handling aircraft ever.... It is Canadian ;). Would I want to own one? Maybe as my fourth or fifth aircraft, as the other more important roles I would like to fill for my recreational flying are fulfilled. But before then, My 150 can keep me proficient at the most simple aerobatics in a sloppy way, and, I can fly my wife, a bit of baggage and two folding bikes to the Bahamas from Canada in two days, and land and takeoff on a 500' long stretch of beach for a picnic on the way. If I dent it, or wear it out, I can get (or make) parts more easily than any civil type on earth. That keeps cost and down time to a minimum. For that, I willingly compromise sloppy ailerons (which, by the way, are noticeably better with the STOL kit I have installed).

I don't present any plane as being superior to another. Just pick the one which will do your job best overall. I DO get grumpy when someone tries to infect new pilots minds with the notion that any particular aircraft is "appalling" compared to another. Some are better, some less so, it depends what you're doing with it. Cessna 100s and 200s and Piper Cherokees are all massive compromises, but they do what is says on the box, and have done so for more than half a century.

Pilots have no shame in flying an airworthy aircraft, which is on budget, and fills their personal role.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

...But do they know what they are missing if they have only ever flown a spam can?

It was the handling of a spam can that I cited as appalling, not the spam can generally. They are indeed very practical aeroplanes, far more practical than a Chippy. Please don't bend my comments to fit your description of them as 'elitist'.

Maybe some pilots just don't care about nice handling; maybe as long as they are flying, they are happy. But I suspect I'm not alone in being seriously discontented with the poor handling of the likes of C150s and PA28s. If I had not discovered good handling, handling that I had dreamed of before learning to fly, I'd have walked away from flying in a matter of months of qualifying instead of enjoying 3 and a half decades of aviation fun. Who wants to fly the equivalent of a 1950s Vauxhall Victor when a Lotus 7 can be enjoyed instead? Of course, you can't take the family on holiday in the Lotus, but that's not the point.

As Richard Bach in his wonderful book 'A Gift of Wings' put it: 'Maybe, as we pushed the high winged cabin into the sky, we thought "this isn't how I thought it would be. But if it's flying, I guess it will have to do".

That was me in the school's C150s.

Flying with a friend in a rented PA28 (I had flown his more interesting aeroplane to another field for maintenance, and he was giving me a lift back to base) he offered me the controls; "no thanks" I replied "I'm quite happy just admiring the view". "I know what you mean", he replied. "I think there may be a spitoon somewhere in the back". :)

[9 lives]

Yes, I entirely agree, pilots should experience as many types as they are able, and they should appreciate the fine, and far superior handling of some types. Don't just settle for Cessna/Piper handling, as being the be all and end all of flying, there's more to it than that. But the "more to it" is on many different fronts of how a plane flies, and what it can do, also don't fixate on demanding one element of perfection, if you feel that a broader appreciation of flying is what you want.

If a steadfast Chipmunk pilot flew my Teal, they would be mortally offended by its ridiculous roll handling in the air, until they touched the water where they wanted to be that day. They would come to realize that the poor handling in the air was a compromise to assure it would do what it must on the water. (Huge chord, unbalance ailerons are terrible in the air, but vital in lifting a wingtip float out of the water at very low speed). The guy who designed it knew this, and once explained it to me when I complained about the plane. That sloppy handling plane took me, and all of my gear, to a magnificent coastal camping site in Labrador and back, 260 miles from any town, airport, or fuel - and that was the job of the day.

Strive for the "best", but also accept what you must (albeit airworthy), to get the flying job you need to do - done. If you stand on the ground waiting for the perfect plane to taxi up to you, you're not going to fly anywhere near as much as those of us who will smile, and accept appalling handling.

[Piper.Classique]

Horses for courses.......
I love my cub, but excellent handling is not it's best point :-)
For that I fly the libelle or mucha. Sometimes, gliders being what they are, I land in a field. A trifle inconvenient, but part of the game.

For short field performance or taking photos or enjoying a bimble with a friend the cub is ideal. And as that is what I have it goes touring as well. With the camping gear on board. I do eventually arrive.

It's like the way I like both coffee and tea, but not in the same cup.

And then there is the cloudhopper for total pointlessness....A single seat hot air balloon with a maximum of 55 minutes flying time, that takes as long to get ready as a full size balloon carrying four people. But it is fun. Which is what our sort of flying should be about.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

My second favorite aeroplane isn't the Yak52 I had a share in, great fun though that was - it's the L4 (Mil J3) Cub I flew a lot many years ago. It didn't have classically 'good' handling, but was joy on a summers afternoon at low level with the whole side of the cockpit open and, flown from the rear seat, most of the aeroplane in front of you.

I enjoyed it soooo much more than the far more 'capable' Super Cub.

But no good if you are in a hurry or if there's any sort of headwind.

[Piper.Classique]

Ah well, SSD, the little cub is nicer to fly, and not that much slower than a super cub with a fine pitch prop, but the 150 cub will tow gliders.....
And as that is something I need to do, I fly a super cub. And don't you know, there isn't much I would change it for!

[Corsican]

It took me about 18 months for my PPL and that includes 4-5 months spread across that time for family holidays and where the weather annihilated flying (e.g. 7 weekends in a row). I was with the same instructor up until shortly before my QXC when he dropped to just 1 day a week instructing which did not always work for me. As a result, I finished my PPL having flown with 4 different instructors. Each had quite different styles but I was open to that and felt it was a good learning experience. I got along quite well with my original instructor, but it was good to have contrasting techniques and styles and keeps you focussed on why you are training, i.e. get the PPL. I was also familiar with the club and knew most of the instructors by sight so did not want to change the overall scene.

I can still hear one of them (as she repeatedly slapped my wrist) telling me off on how I was going about trimming. The trick is not to take things personally, listen and adopt the "right" technique that works for you (so long as you are not inventing your own). I think having other instructors works well.

I had a lull where I was slipping into thinking and being a perpetual student PPL. The instructors were telling me that I could fly fine but I was thinking I needed to work on something more to be proficient or that my instructor would tell me if I was doing something wrong. Not having an instructor in the aircraft removes that sub-conscious safety net and makes you realise that you have to make the decisions yourself. That is what they are looking for when they are flying with you as well. I never felt my school was trying to milk me for more money - if anything, they were urging me on.

At the end of the day, I got my PPL at the beginning of this year and enjoy flying more and more. In fact, it is positively different to how I thought about flying whilst doing the PPL. The PPL is really just the first stage. You will really start flying - and learning - after the PPL. If you can do it, I would just go for it so that come springtime, you will be able to spend the rest of the year(s) enjoying what you have achieved, consolidating what you learned and exploring the type of flying that really puts that massive smile on your face when you are up there. Good luck! :ok:

@ SSD - interesting what you say about different a/c. There are only 152/PA28's where I fly from. Managed to get a ride or two from some owners (kitbuild, Piper and a Tiger Moth) but wondering what you think would be a good a/c to try and get into to build the flying skills?

[worldpilot]

You will really start flying - and learning - after the PPL.

Oh, really?:{

What activities were you engaged in that entitled you to attain the PPL status?:=

I wonder why it is called "flight training" in the first place.

You did some solo flying as part of your program to attain your pilot certificate, right? Now, it would be prudent to reflect on that part of your flying in relation to your future flying engagements, to ascertain and understand the ramifications accordingly.

My assumption is that your flight training instructor provided you the information and advice (principles and practices) to fly a single engine airplane and that the flying skill set acquired during this phase will be applied in your future flying activities.

SO, why think that flying starts after PPL?

Make sure you're aware of your performance and safety margins before moving on, in order to avoid being part of aviation accident statistics.

Any pilot that thinks flying starts after PPL has doubt in his/her personal aviation capabilities.

WP

[9 lives]

Any pilot that thinks flying [learning] starts after PPL has doubt in his/her personal aviation capabilities.

On the contrary, there is no possible way during 45 or so hours of formal flight training to encounter all the possible situations, conditions, and aircraft from which one will truly learn to fly. A PPL means that you met the minimum standard for piloting, not much more. After a few hundred hours, you'll be getting there, after a thousand, call yourself an experienced pilot. You will not be better than the instructor who trained you, and how many of them have a thousand hours? Too few.... A fresh PPL is not yet an experienced pilot, particularly if they have yet to fly with one! Have confidence in your aviation capabilities, those demonstrated for the PPL exam, but know how many you have yet to develop, which were not even mentioned during your PPL training.....

Do not wave your fresh PPL at the sky, and say "I've got you conquered", hold it with pride and humility and say "I'd like to tip toe up with care".

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Agree with Step. And I'd take it a tad further. The PPL, by necessity, teaches you to 'fly by numbers and rote'. Given the complexity of learning to fly, that's the only way it can be done with a neophyte stude.

An example is the use of 'stall speed' to prevent the stude from flying too slowly. When we 'grow up' aeronautically speaking, we learn that there is no such thing as stall speed, only stall angle (of attack).

If we progress to aerobatics we soon learn that there is often little relationship between the stall and the ASI indication.

Circuit planning consists of stuff like "at this point on base leg reduce power to xxx, extend x degrees of flap, and trim for x knots". Hmmm. Try that when flying into a tight, sloping, farm strip with the weaving approach flown between trees and buildings.

When we get more experienced all that 'do it by rote' stuff is, rightly, ditched and we fly the aeroplane to make it do what we want. Eventually with the right sort of aeroplane and sufficient experience the aeroplane becomes an extension of the pilot, and he doesn't need to consciously think about the mechanics of operating the controls.

I know I was a very long way from that when I completed my PPL many decades ago.

[worldpilot]

Yes, the instructor introduces aspirants to the concepts of flying, but the key is to establish that preparedness that enables the transition from a training environment (pre PPL) to the private flying environment (post PPL).

No doubt, a wealth of knowledge and experience is acquired in advance of PPL training, but a properly trained pilot is in a position to feel comfortable at the controls of an aircraft.

This reminds of the situation with N559DW where a low time PPL pilot was able to control a twin aircraft (King Air 200) to a safe landing, after the pilot became diseased. He had no prior experience in flying a twin.

So, aviation is about mental state and decision-making capabilities. Without proper training, Douq White would have perished with his family onboard.

Watch the Youtube link below for this courageous performance.

XhMom-YHgoU

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Two of the spin-offs of learning to fly, for me, were improved decision making skills and an enhanced ability to address vital issues NOW and secondary ones later - including the ability to differentiate rapidly which ARE the vital issues and which can wait.

This undoubtedly helped me progress in my (non aviation) career. I like to think that all that money I spent on my main 'outside of work' interest was more than paid back in career advancement that may not have happened if I hadn't taken up aviating.

On a related note, wasn't it Nevil Shute, in one of his books, who wrote words to the effect of "doing something demanding, like flying, which has an ever present element of danger if you get it wrong, gives one an enhanced sense of proportion in dealing with everyday life"?

[9 lives]

When we get more experienced all that 'do it by rote' stuff is, rightly, ditched and we fly the aeroplane to make it do what we want. Eventually with the right sort of aeroplane and sufficient experience the aeroplane becomes an extension of the pilot, and he doesn't need to consciously think about the mechanics of operating the controls.

I totally agree.

Yes, points to the unprepared King Air pilot. based upon my King Air flying, I would imagine that this pilot was superior in skill to your average new PPL, and luckily had most things going their way for that flight.

There are a lot of operations which are very different to what a PPL is trained for. For example, my recent landing into a mountain pass runway I had never flown into before. The calculated ground roll for landing was 876 feet, and for takeoff 869 feet. The runway length available was 975 feet (of wet grass) to the fence (which they offered to take down for my takeoff). This is within the capability of the aircraft, but not within that of a new PPL, even in a regular 172.

Downwind was flown more or less down the runway, and the downwind to base to final turn was a 2200 foot diameter circle in the mountains. Odd stuff for me, a flat land pilot.

They video'd me, I did okay.

It can be seen on Post 963 of this thread;

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/111332-personal-flying-videos-49.html

If a new PPL told me that they were capable of this, I would be taking them aside as quietly as I could for a talk with a lot of warnings in it. I don't think many instructors would try this, much less train it to their students. Is landing on a runway 105% of the ground run requirement even trained? I don't think that many instructors, let alone PPLs, are "properly trained" to fly a 182 amphibian at all in the PPL training routine. But, this is the post PPL world of flying for a few well off PPLs. As comfortable as they might feel, they are not ready for one of these, without a whole bunch of type training (so they'd not be "new" anymore). Hint: The power off, 20 flap, approach path is a 12.5 degree descent angle. The forced landing area is nowhere near as far away as you expect, and timing the flare is critical, to prevent wrecking a $150,000 set of floats. The owner, my student (exiting from the right seat on this flight) received training from me, then demonstrated four pretty good full power off landings, with that steep 12.5 degree approach, and good flares, before I would send him solo at all.

No one will do PPL training on an aircraft of this nature, and even if were contemplated, the insurance would disallow it (premium for me was $17,500 per year, with a $25,000 deductible - I own a whole airplane cheaper than that!). So the new PPL is going to have to do a lot of training on this type of plane afterword (post PPL). A normal checkout on something like this would be in the 25+ hours range. That's all post PPL learning, and even it is a minimum!

Even a PPL getting into a Bonanza, Lance, Mooney, or Centurion has a whole lot more training to do, just to be minimally competent.

I'm not knocking PPL training, but simply trying to illuminate that it is a very small first step in learning to be a pilot. Step by step, you become a pilot, be prepared for many steps ahead, and take them with humility....

[Corsican]

Any pilot that thinks flying starts after PPL has doubt in his/her personal
aviation capabilities.

Hi WP

You may have interpreted what I was trying to say too literally or alternatively, I did not express myself clearly enough.

My point is that with a PPL, you have satisfied the minimum legal essentials to fly. The PPL examiner will decide whether the demonstrated minimum is sufficient to pass and if you achieved more than the minimum, it does not mean you get more than the basic PPL. I would be crazy and/or a danger to others if I thought I could do anything having obtained that piece of paper. For instance, I worked on crosswind landings during my PPL, but that does not mean that I considered myself all set to go the day after I passed my skills test for a full crosswind landing on a short wet grass runway that I've never been to with known windshear on certain approaches.

I need to know my limits (which means being totally honest with myself - I do not see that as doubt) but also develop my skills progressively by, amongst a variety of sources, talking to more experienced pilots, practising or doing advanced training/ratings etc etc. Unfortunately, I am not a natural born flyer, so I know I need to keep working at it to be better. Maybe I will see things differently later, but it seems the right approach for me now.

Actually, SSD and Step Turn expressed what I was trying to say much better.

[Wingman1972]

Hi everyone
i firstly want to say i am so blown away from the response from you all and thank you al so much for your help and advice it has helped me make the right decision i am sure,
special thanks to GQ, ST, SSD, Corsican, world pilot thank you everyone

firstly i want to admit i made an error in calculating my hours, i had only done 29 hrs supervised and 2.5 solo, the solo was circuit consolodatioin,

i have been very busy since though,

i firstrly had my little test to fly ten miles out of the circuit and show i could handle the pa28 there and back joining the ciorcuit albeit a bit scruffy but got there all good with rx to air field etc :O
then my next lesson was to go twice the distanced, this too went without any hiccups :)
then my big day which i have to say was a very exciting day i got to do my first land away, i flew 20 miles to land, had a quick cup of sweet tea for shock lol, then quick transit check and headed back, all went well i even recorded the flight on my i phone using sky demon, (sky demon is amazing helpful tool)
i have to say this for me was the best part so far of my training, all the hard work we had all put in had paid off ;)
with regards to moving school i took a long hard look at my options and also spoke with my instructor who told it to me streight,
i agree with what a lot of you said and sat down and talked to him and explained my concerns and eg weather about to change etc,
i now have a great FI with whom i had flown with breifly before, i also have a CFI who has been flying for over 35 years which is awsome too :D the wealth of experiance from these guys is so valuable :)
its horses for courses really,
i now know what happened i panicked as i thought i was not getting anywhere and my instructor leaving might put me back,
but really its down to the stude to put the effort in and talk to people,
if anyone is thinking about training i would strongly recomend just getting stuck in, ask for more than one FI,CFI and go for it, my circumstances with work/family life commitments really hampered my progress, but it can be done,
i am now doing VOR's IMC/s
my next sorte is to do a 97 mile XC, with one basic two basic services needed, and three MATZ penetrations, this was planned for yesterday but we decided against it due to bad weather and MATZ closed etc, (we done more VOR's instead)
i know the weather is going to hamper my training slightly but im sure if i stay focused and determined it will be ok ;)
i have fell in love with flying more and more as time as gone on and i still have to pinch myself to believe i am doing this,
i am even dreaming VOR's at night at the moment as i am so determined to now learn as much as popssible, the learning will never end im sure, as some of you have said ;)
the training is life saving skills, we will never know if we will one day have to do a real PFL, (my instructor had to do one for real on a trial flight only two weeks ago!!! he had engine failure)
at the end of the training i am hoping to join a small syndicate, and just enjoy getting in the air as much as possible and learn even more about myself and flying and the ultimate goal would be to do my night rating, imc, CPL and maybe get a carreer in flying, who knows where it will lead?? Suzi Air?? now that would be awsome, but i think a while yet lol :)
anyway enough babbling from me lol
Thank you all so much for helping me make the right decision, and i hope this will help others to make the right decision if thinking about PPL, it really is down to the individual how they chose to do the PPL, in my case i strung it out and should have just got on with it sooner, my instructor leaving just gave me the kick up the ass i needed,
up up and at it, i will come back and let you know how my XC goes when the weather permits :)