Wind farms 2

[yr right]

This is what happen last Friday.

Gullen Range modification bid ?a hopeless mess? resident tells Commission | Crookwell Gazette (http://www.crookwellgazette.com.au/story/2544339/gullen-range-modification-b)

Hope the link works.
On another note it was said that should not worry you if you don't fly below 500 feet. When you consider that these a replaces on top of ridge lines and at crookwell for example you will be a circuit hight and level with them.

Cheers

[Flying Binghi]

Via the yr right link...

"...In Mr Jim Hudson's submission he writes that the Crookwell Aerodrome will no longer be considered for use for aerial firefighting by the NSW Rural Fire Service. The aircraft used in this role is an 802 Fire Bomber.

There is also a twin engine support aircraft in addition to the 802 and they are four Category B aircraft.

He added, the Crookwell aerodrome is therefore exclude from consideration and any necessary fire fighting efforts must be originated from Bathurst, Cowra or Goulburn.

The Crookwell Aerodromes importance and significance was such that at the time the then Mayor, Brian McGuiness and Deputy Mayor James Carr, when determining the legally authorised purchase and establishment of the facility enacted the condition that it be held in perpetuity for the residents and landowners of the Crookwell district.

The aerodrome cannot be sold or therefore closed. This decision precedes the development of the wind farm and such decision cannot be altered.” Mr Hudson contended..."









.

[Oktas8]

It sounds like the planning & development process has been a real mess. This being NSW (finest politicians that money can buy), it's not entirely surprising.

But it's not entirely clear to me why the wind farm is a problem to aviation. I get that it is only a couple of miles from Crookwell airfield (hard to tell exactly from my WAC), but why can aircraft not join & depart the circuit safely? Do the turbines extend more than 500' above the ridge lines?

[yr right]

A few points to consider.

If you build a shed in your back yard and place it 1/2 meter to close to the fence line you will have to pull it down and replace it in the right position.

Next if the court says your can't do something we'll your not alowed to do that.

Next if your a wind farm we'll the above two don't matter. You can do what you won't too.

So now if they win and don't have to pull these things down a pressidence has been set for all of us. This is now bigger than just wind frams.

Cheers

[Aussie Bob]

but why can aircraft not join & depart the circuit safely? Do the turbines extend more than 500' above the ridge lines? I am sure you can still use the circuit at Crookwell safely however the combined height of the turbines and the ridge they sit on can place them well above VFR height in the adjacent valleys. Although I don't know if this is the case at Crookwell, it certainly is with the wind farms east of Adelaide.

Given the photographs on the previous thread showing turbulence extending several kilometers from the wind turbines I would suggest that if you fly into the lee of these things on a windy day you could be in for a very interesting ride indeed.

Below, east of Adelaide

http://postimg.org/image/h1kuyt5lt/http://s25.postimg.org/uloz9s46n/DSCN2025.jpg
http://postimg.org/image/h1kuyt5lt/http://postimg.org/image/h1kuyt5lt/
http://www.pprune.org/but why can aircraft not join & depart the circuit safely? Do the turbines extend more than 500' above the ridge lines?

[yr right]

I've seen f 1-11 and c130 fly blow the ridge line at crookwell in **** weather Ifr bet they won't now

[yr right]

Now this is were it also gets interesting. The turbines are located in direct contravention of the casa reqs. Section 9 and 9A. The implications if you read between the lines. For get what's happening in NSW with ICAC this is going to be bigger.

[Aussie Bob]

For get what's happening in NSW with ICAC this is going to be bigger

I won't hold my breath waiting ...

[yr right]

The implications of what's happened in crookwell with what's been done is shocking. We will see what happens

[Squawk7700]

It's no big deal really. I saw Mission Impossible III a few nights ago where Tom Cruise was in the back and they flew a Huey through the spinning blades succesfully. An F1-11 goes much faster so they would be ok.

[Super Cecil]

With Crookwell being around 1000m unless there was a pretty good headwind you wouldn't be working an 802 from there unless it was 2/3 of a load.

[plucka]

Or had a 67F engine, Super Cecil.

[yr right]

We'll 802 been used out of crookwell for years.

[gerry111]

yr right wrote:


"I've seen f 1-11 and c130 fly blow the ridge line at crookwell in **** weather Ifr bet they won't now" (sic.)


No risk of an F-111 flying into anything, these days. :(

Squawk7700: :D

[Avgas172]

On another note it was said that should not worry you if you don't fly below 500 feet. When you consider that these a replaces on top of ridge lines and at crookwell for example you will be a circuit hight and level with them.

Probably my comment, for the benefit of Yr Right the 500 ft refers to AGL, ie the aircraft will not fly lower then 500 ft above ground level, hence if the terrain is 3000 ft then it stands to reason said aircraft shall not descend below 3,500 ft MSL lest the pilot shall smite his aircraft into the planet be it either in a ridge or a valley ....

[yr right]

For your benefit Avgas the airfield At crookwell is at the bottom of the ridge. There fore as you enter the circuit you will be in the turbines slip stream with the airfield below you and the tops of the turbines above you. Not all of Australia is flat !!!!!

[Aussie Bob]

Anyone here currently flying out of Crookwell who would like to comment? Looks like they are about 3 kilometers away on Google Earth.

[Jabawocky]

Yr right, did you see this?

"...In Mr Jim Hudson's submission he writes that the Crookwell Aerodrome will no longer be considered for use for aerial firefighting by the NSW Rural Fire Service. The aircraft used in this role is an 802 Fire Bomber.

So have you phoned this guy up and offered your professional support as a concerned pilot?

Seems like a cause worth fighting if you are well enough versed in the subject matter. I am not, but it seems you are somewhat well informed, so do not let this poor bloke battle it himself. Stick it to them :ok:

[Avgas172]

For your benefit yr I flew out of Cowra for over 10 years, and I am quite familiar with the terrain between Cowra and Moruya. You would then be aware that the direct route would take you close enough to Crookwell, however I am interested in your theory of wind speed driving the turbines, such that the speed and turbulence behind would be any greater than the rotor turbulence created by the Wind and ridge alone without the interference of the turbines .... Do tell!

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_wave

[Super Cecil]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=019Ro3E_mhA&app=desktop
All the other rubbish written about the danger of windfarms in the proximity of airfields, have a look at that lot.
Henry got that many to contend with? :8

[Stikybeke]

Pleased to see that this topic has been reborn. That's some interesting stuff you've posted there Yr Right! From what you've written and the F111 observation you're clearly from Crookwell or if not probably grew up there. Lucky you. It's a top part of the country. Actually Jabba I did some googling on the net and learnt that Jim Hudson is actually Jim Hutson who is a highly experienced and well respected pilot /LAME in Ag and other circles. Apparently has been flying over 50 years or so. Yr Right would definitely have to know him so he would definitely benefit as you suggest. Sounds like RFS will be taking their ops elsewhere though which is a pity.
Sticky

[Up-into-the-air]

If these are removed from Crookwell, having also serious flight time in the region, there will be increased:



Costs;
Time to response;
Risks to pilots and aircraft


Remember, Crookwell is some 1000FT AGL above Goulburn and there are very limited other strips in the area for these RFS operations, which would meet a reasonable safety case.

Further, I believe the issues are:



Has casa properly protected us from the wind turbines?;
Do the wind turbines affect aviation?;
What is the proper distance from an airport;
What protection is being made for the future?;
Is casa being consulted by approving organisations for proper effects on aviation?;
Are the proposers using proper and correct information from aviation savvy people?;
Has CAAct 9A been breached by casa in respect of approvals of wind turbine farms??
How does the movement [without approval] by 385metres in the Crookwell area, affect the actual approval and aviation? and
Was this confirmed [post final approval] OR
Does the constructing company and the approving organisation breach CAAct 9A?

Only thinking.

UITA

[yr right]

Yes jabba I know and speak to Jim somewhat on a regular basis.
The reason why there are not more turbines around the crookwell aerodrome is because of the work he and others done to prevent them. As I recall these where the first in Australia to be stopped

[Flying Binghi]

Pleased to see that this topic has been reborn...

Bit of a head scratcher why the thread were shut down ? :confused:

http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/546606-windfarms.html

If an aviation facility has problems with green idiocy affecting their operations you'd think all avenues of defence would be looked at including the very reason for the wind generator facility existance.

If the very premis of the wind facilitys reason for being can not be justified then there is no facility.












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[Stikybeke]

I guess the thread was starting to lose its way. Given the rebirth maybe I should change my name to Laserous?

Yr Right, just being curious here but,,,, on another note and taking into account your vast experience in giving evidence how would you approach this issue if someone, due to EFAT or as part of a forced landing or any other reason hit one of these things and you were called as an expert witness? For a start from an aviators standpoint who would be liable? Or would you look at the construction regs etc. taking into account the Crookwell example. Thanks.
Stiky

[Avgas172]

In England, there were 163 wind turbine accidents that killed 14 people in 2011. Wind produced about 15 billion kWhrs that year, so using a capacity factor of 25%, that translates to about 1,000 deaths per trillion kWhrs produced (the world produces 15 trillion kWhrs per year from all sources).

These are pretty low numbers. By contrast, in 2011 coal produced about 180 billion kWhrs in England with about 3,000 related deaths. Nuclear energy produced over 90 billion kWhrs in England with no deaths. In that same year, America produced about 800 billion kWhrs from nuclear with no deaths.

I think we better get rid of all those coal mines ....

[yr right]

I guess it depends if your one of the 14 minding your own business. And if you have the miss fortune to have had an incident we'll let's say we'll
It's to late for you. But I'm sure there be lots of people around to support your family in the insuring court cases.

[Jabawocky]

Yes jabba I know and speak to Jim somewhat on a regular basis.
The reason why there are not more turbines around the crookwell aerodrome is because of the work he and others done to prevent them. As I recall these where the first in Australia to be stopped

Cool, despite our differences….glad to see you are helping out :ok:

[Avgas172]

yr right
I guess it depends if your one of the 14 minding your own business.


I am here to assure you that if I were approaching any airfield, I would make it my business to be very aware of the possibilities of any obstacles I may encounter on said approach, including but not limited to wind farms, Power lines,
Trains (Temora & Cootamundra) mountains etc etc .... As to the business model of said wind farms I have no particular preference .....

[Flying Binghi]

via Avgas172:
In England, there were 163 wind turbine accidents that killed 14 people in 2011. Wind produced about 15 billion kWhrs that year, so using a capacity factor of 25%, that translates to about 1,000 deaths per trillion kWhrs produced (the world produces 15 trillion kWhrs per year from all sources).

These are pretty low numbers. By contrast, in 2011 coal produced about 180 billion kWhrs in England with about 3,000 related deaths. Nuclear energy produced over 90 billion kWhrs in England with no deaths. In that same year, America produced about 800 billion kWhrs from nuclear with no deaths.

I think we better get rid of all those coal mines ....

Hmmm... 3000 eh..:hmm: i think you need to put some more thought to that Avgas172. Just for a start, what is the death rate for the mines that supply the wind turbine materials ? e.g. rare earths, etc. I think we mine more coal then the poms in Oz... 3000!... work place health and safety would be having a fit.

Also, a link to your quote would be nice. I've done the old copy and paste a sentence to google trick and no credible site luck yet.











.

[Avgas172]

Forget Eagle Deaths, Wind Turbines Kill Humans - Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2013/09/29/forget-eagle-deaths-wind-turbines-kill-humans/)

read it and weep bingles ....
Clearly your google finger is broken.

[Flying Binghi]

While i'm here...

The Rottnest island wind generator were given as a pro wind power example in the previous thread. I've been having a look-see...

In reply to guest complaints, Chakra Resorts Manager at Rottnest Lodge writes...

"...Due to the Rottnest Island Authorities goal of sustainability, we rely on power from the wind generator located towards Geordie Bay. Unfortunately this does not allow for air conditioning in the rooms..."

Rottnest Lodge (Rottnest Island): See 177 Reviews and 69 Photos - TripAdvisor (http://www.tripadvisor.com.au/Hotel_Review-g488366-d456772-Reviews-or20-Rottnest_Lodge-Rottnest_Island_Cockburn_Greater_Perth_Western_Australia.htm l#REVIEWS)

:D:D:D....:hmm:

I've just started to look through some of the financials of the island admin. Looks to have cost about 3.2million to establish the wind geny facility. Comments about the wind geny annually saving some diesel. NO comments about the generator annually saving money..:hmm:

...and those diesel generator maintenance costs. Would the highly fluctuating wind power supply have anything to do with it ? :rolleyes:












.

[Flying Binghi]

"THE death of two miners at a NSW coalmine takes the number of mining-related deaths in Australia since July to nine, more than four times the total for the previous financial year."

April 2014 Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/mining-deaths-point-to-a-tragic-trend/story-e6frg8zx-1226887072600?nk=0280e39d440e1ee59aa1093d2eb0e6c8#)











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[tecman]

You've got gall A172: who knows where referencing balanced argument, devoid of links to nutter websites could lead?

Aircon on Rottnest? You'd be in the serious princess category to need that.

The comment I got from the local rangers was that the 1/3 of the total load supplied by the turbine made desalination of potable water feasible, reducing the drain on the water table in the face of increasingly dry seasons. I see that's also reflected in the Rottnest Authority info.

[yr right]

A quick point.
1 turbine dose NOT make a wind farm. There was a fella on Abc RN this morning that made some really good points. I would suggest that you should listen to that on the net

[Flying Binghi]

A quick point.
1 turbine dose NOT make a wind farm...


Agreed there, though, the Rottnest wind geny was introduced to the discussion as an example of a 'good' system operating near an airfield - its not. It also shows many of the reasons just why wind 'power' does not make economic sense.



...There was a fella on Abc RN this morning that made some really good points. I would suggest that you should listen to that on the net


I've had a quick look-see and caint see nothing. A direct link or some keyword search terms would be handy. Chaps name perhaps ?








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[yr right]

It's called.
Coal to remain biggest fuel source into the future. On RN page. By Robert Bryce I didn't hear it all but what I did hear made sense to me

[Up-into-the-air]

Here is the link yr-right:

Coal to remain biggest fuel source into the future: US expert - RN Breakfast - ABC Radio National (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/coal-to-remain-biggest-fuel-source-into-the-future-us-expert/5735630)

[Avgas172]

I tend to agree that coal as a generation source isn't going to be usurped any time soon, however the alternative power sources are helping to REDUCE the dependence on fossil fuels and associated pollution ... just a balanced view.
However if I should ever smite my 172 into any one of these power sources so be it. :E

[Stikybeke]

So just back to the aviation side of the house in the event that I was unlucky or foolish enough to collide with one of these due to positioning of the structure in the vicinity of an airfield. I wonder if there are any within the wider circuit OCTA world? Will there be any expert evidence from you YR Right re this? I'm just curious to learn what you would provide if you were asked given your exposure to the legal system in such areas. I think sharing this would benefit all.
Thanks
Stiky

[Flying Binghi]

via tecman:
...Aircon on Rottnest? You'd be in the serious princess category to need that.

And yet there are those pesky customer complaints..:hmm:

Rottnest island highs, degrees C

Jan 41.9

Feb 41.5

Mar 40.8

Apr 38.0

May 29.2

Jun 24.9

Jul 26.5

Aug 23.0

Sep 27.0

Oct 35.2

Nov 36.6

Dec 40.6

Rottnest Island climate, averages and extreme weather records (http://www.weatherzone.com.au/climate/station.jsp?lt=site&lc=9193)


...and todays entire combined wind 'power' output for the entire south east of Australia totals less then 10% of installed generator capacity..........:hmm:

Wind Energy in Australia | Aneroid (http://energy.anero.id.au/wind-energy)








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[Towering Q]

Sounds quite dramatic when you use the Rottnest Island Daily Records.

Lets try the Rottnest Island Long-term Averages
instead......that's better, January is 26.5, not 41.9

Using the same link for Albany.....Albany Ap Daily Records maximum is 45.6 :eek:

There must be a booming aircon industry in Albany.

[Flying Binghi]

...Lets try the Rottnest Island Long-term Averages
instead......that's better, January is 26.5, not 41.9


"Averages" ...:hmm:

Basil Faulty telling the customers their wrong - its not hot, our average is only 26.5 degrees...:)











.

[yr right]

Stiky. I take it you never played poker. I'm sure when the time comes the support received will be more than acceptable. There a lot smarter people that have been working on this than myself. Let's what and see who knows what the future holds.

[tecman]

Towering Q is correct: the mean MAX temperature is 26.5. Designing a system - particularly an off-grid system- for the peak of the peaks is folly, as we're collectively finding.

While the modal (most frequent) MAX summer temp would be a good thing to know, as a Rottnest regular I bet it's below 30C. And it's an island: usually plenty of breeze from late morning.

Always a great view from final of the turbine chugging away - gladdens my heart.

[Avgas172]

AERODROME OBSTACLES
Multiple LIOLs - Radio masts 1260FT at S23 23.5 E144 13.3. Painted and lit.
YLRE a dangerous place to land?

And meanwhile back to aviation related problems with these little windmill things, just another obstacle we as diligent aviators will see and avoid. As I mentioned previously I care not for argument on the should be or should be not of the viability of same.

[HarleyD]

I regularly fly from Mojave airport, or spaceport as they call it now, and it has a wind farm nearby, within a mile or so in places. There are a few turbines in that wind farm, 12,000 I think between Mojave and Tehachape. I have never been bothered by them though the hills are almost white with them.

Booming industry renewable power in those parts. As the summer days wax and wane so does the amount of them spinning. Hot day with all those air conditioners in LA at full blast the hills are alive with spinning windmills taking the peak loads from the major power plants.

I have never been concerned about hitting them,even though some are on top of hills several real thousands of feet above the nearby desert. I thought it was the terrain and the high winds that produced all that turbulence, not the windmills. Others here have more knowledge than I about that clearly.

Wind farms, bring em on. P!ss that filthy stinking acid raining! cancer causing! asthma producing 'whitified' power station smoke off. Coal dust blowing all over the place on summer days, open cut fires that blanket a regional town for weeks on end. Get rid of it as son as possible, but it will all run out anyway. Fossil fuel that is. That is why renewable research is very important. I ant some of they lovely petrol left for my motor bike for loony to come.

Nuclear......vast amounts of relatively cheap energy.......but...... I would rather take my chances living near a wind farm..... At least they won't take out a half a state out on a bad day, and give everyone cancer for....a few thousand years.

I am it a 'greenie', or a ' Huggy Fluff' I think the term is, but I am even more so not a philistine' Brown Smoker', flat earth climate denying anti scientist either. I am not a short sighted chicken little like many on this site. I like to consider all options on merit, not just scream " Kill the tree huggers, let's use all the oil/coal/gas/shale while we have the chance" "We can always frack some CSG, there is no limit!" I have heard some butters in the US insist that God put it all there for us and it is our duty to exploit it and responsibility to prosper from it. Really.

Renewable is still being developed and improved, as have coal powered steam turbines been developed from triple expansion reciprocating steam plants of a hundred or more years ago. We have coal stations over 50 years old in Victoria that are some of the highest polluting power generation plants in the world. They are filthy and need to go.

Maybe I am a big green around the edges, or maybe in the middle, hidden deep. At least I am not a rapacious vandal.

Yr Right, I see your profile says you are lame, is this an intellectual disability, or you are just a bit gimpy in one leg.


HD

[truthinbeer]

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You see, it is just a business. Go ahead, ask Al Gore.

For my money I would prefer to see investment in solar.

p.s. Creepy. How did they know I was discussing this on Pprune? Fraccing Al Gore.

[gerry111]

truthinbeer,


We all live in the information age. Now, imagine if technology is already available to identify the real names of PPRuNers who post anonymously?


And how valuable that information may be to third parties?


Social media and blogging also helps to identify me and you. :8

[Flying Binghi]

via tecman #34:
The comment I got from the local rangers was that the 1/3 of the total load supplied by the turbine made desalination of potable water feasible, reducing the drain on the water table in the face of increasingly dry seasons. I see that's also reflected in the Rottnest Authority info.

Actually, its 26% of the load. Fluctuates like the wind from year to year. Great for business planning...

http://www.rottnestisland.com/docs/strategic-corporate-documents/ria-ar-2013.pdf?sfvrsn=0

2013/14 report, page 25: "...All power requirements for the Island are generated on-site using a combination of diesel generators and a wind turbine. The RIA generates, distributes and retails power under licence from the Economic Regulation Authority.
The total power generated during the year was 4.9m kilowatts, of which 1.2m kilowatts (26%) was generated by the Island’s wind turbine, and the balance supplied through diesel generation.
The wind turbine generated the equivalent of 342,000 litres of diesel fuel, saving the RIA an estimated $490,000..."

Hmmm... now have they taken the diesel fuel rebate outa that..:hmm:

...And what about all that extra maintenance... diesel generators running poorly while the wind power fluctuates all over the shop. Generators using diesel whilst on 'standby' mode to that glorious wind tower. Generators wearing out sooner then expected because of costly mis-use.....:rolleyes:

And then there's that third rung of maintenance engineers required. No longer just the electrician and diesel mech, now there's the highly paid wind turbine maintenance crews working way up above the ground. Wonder what monetary percentage of the maintenance contract is sourced out to wind 'power' specialists..:hmm:

Considering the Rottnest island wind 'power' generator stacks up poorly compared to diesel power, think how any wind 'power' generators stack up against the far, far more efficient coal power stations.

Something else to consider. There has been prior wind 'power' generator(s?) on Rottnest - very expensive disasters apparently. Should not all that wasted money be tacked onto the total costs of the Rottnest island wind 'power' fiasco..:hmm:



The "drain on the water table"... Having a brief scan of some of the liturature on the subject ah dont see no reference to dry seasons. Do though see there has been more accommodation built. i.e., more people using water. There is also reference made to the tree planting being done that would reduce ground water.

http://www.water.wa.gov.au/PublicationStore/first/107320.pdf










.

[Flying Binghi]

Germany is at the forefront of technological development in the wind energy sector. Excellent investment opportunities have led wind energy companies from around the world to base their operations here – both onshore and offshore. Get all the information you need to...


"Lawyers now getting involved..."

Spiegel: Germany?s Large-Scale Offshore Windpark Dream Morphs Into An Engineering And Cost Nightmare (http://notrickszone.com/2014/09/11/spiegel-germanys-large-scale-offshore-windpark-dream-morphs-into-an-engineering-and-cost-nightmare/)











.

[yr right]

The difference with a small island community running on disel is quite simple. The load can be shared when the wind blows as a combustion engine will come on line imedeatly. A coal plant can't do that. That's why you end up with grey and black outs. This makes the coal plant inificent. The problems lie as you can't produce wind on demand. And why then can't these wind frams produce there power and sell it them selfs at a rate that's fare to the Australian public. We have to subsidise the building then subsidised there output. Not a great bussiness model for the public. You can't do that with many other industry's. That's why we have the hugest power cost in the world.

[truthinbeer]

The annual subsidy for each wind turbine in Australia is $400k-$500k pa for 30 years plus. This subsidy is invariably going direct to the foreign domiciled company that owns it. Not only is the aussie tax payer getting hit with higher electricity costs, but there is no long term benefit to the economy as the subsidy is not spent here.

[yr right]

Imagine if that money was put into some thing useful. Like hospitals and roads.

[Stikybeke]

You're right Yr right! I don't play poker. I prefer to rely on a factual approach where I know what I know. From an aviation standpoint though I had hoped that you might have had a more factual as opposed to a what if base for your thoughts given your exposure to the legal system and your standing as an expert witness for aviation matters. Still you make a good point S, you never know what the future holds and who knows what....
Stiky

[yr right]

We'll the reason I said about poker is you don't give the game away to the opposition. And that's all. And like I said when it happens and it will I'm sure the support will be there.

[yr right]

Hd. A lame is here in Australia. Licence aircraft maintenance engineer. Is is higher than your FAA inspector engineer.

[truthinbeer]

HD, in Australia as in Germany (which is still heavily reliant on coal fired power stations) we burn burn a blended coal that has a higher calorific value and lower emissions. This is in contrast to countries such as China and India who use old fashioned unblended coal.

As you point out we may have old power stations...the structures that is. The boilers have been modernised and use efficient burners.

[Avgas172]

The annual subsidy for each wind turbine in Australia is $400k-$500k pa for 30 years plus

Reference please! :hmm: