Purchasing an aircraft [Archive]

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PrivateAviator

5th Sep 2014, 21:38

dubbleyew eight

6th Sep 2014, 04:54

you will get lots of advice. lots of confusion.

I own a homebuilt aircraft (built by an old guy and his son) that is powered by a Continental O-200 engine.

I run the engine on 91 octane unleaded car fuel because I found the lead emissions an unnecessary pollutant.

I use Champion REM38E spark plugs in the engine.

I notice a slight tendency to carby icing more than I got with 100/130 octane avgas but that is all. carby heat sorts it out nicely.

I use 20.5 litres an hour of fuel. so at $1.50 a litre that is $31 per hour direct cost.

sharpend

6th Sep 2014, 08:40

An incredibly difficult question to answer.

How much can you afford?
What do you want to do with it?
How far are you prepared to travel?
How many passengers will you want to take?
How often will you want to fly?
Do you buy outright or join a syndicate?
Spamcan or vintage?
What sort of airfield do you want to operate from

But there are some ultralites that might satisfy your criteria; they are cheap, can run on Mogas but you cannot do much in them. And they are not very study, saw two Sportcruisers last w/e without nose legs.

Answer those questions and you might get an answer to your first.

My ultimate reply would be to buy a Bulldog, but then I am biased :) However, you try and find one. Even then, they are not cheap to run and will not run on Mogas.

Genghis the Engineer

6th Sep 2014, 08:50

Hi guys,

just went back into flying after spending nearly 8 years of my life skydiving...
well,I'll keep things short:
I'm thinking of buying an airplane,mainly because renting the usual 172 at the club is crazy expensive per hour,but also it's never easy to have it for long trips or for a long period of time.

Undeniably true.

Besides the hangar/maintenance costs (which are mostly dependant on location/airplane) I've been thinking that the engine is what makes the huge difference.

Yes, but fuel burn is only a part of that. As a very basic rule of thumb, running costs on a light single are about 50% fuel, 25 engine maintenance, 25% everything else.

at the moment I'm not really sure wether to go for a 2 or 4 seats,but the question I'm asking is the following:

Bearing in mind that you can always still hire a C172, unless a significant proportion (say more than 1/3rd) of your flying is with 2 or more pax, stick with a 2-seater. Economically you'll win, and the choice of interesting 2 seaters is much better than the choice of interesting 4 seaters.

how good are the thielert/diesel engines?

Experiences are of reasonable engines, that are however moderately unreliable and a bit of a pain to look after.

I've noticed that the TBO is rather low (1.200 to 1.500 hrs) but the operating costs seem low (i'm just talking about the fuel burnt)
what about the maintenance?is it more expensive than AVGas engines?

Experiences is limited, but yes, maintenance costs seem higher than equivalent AVGAS engines.

the main reason is that where I'm planning to fly AVGas is almost impossible to find.
and therefore I'd have to stay either on mogas or jet A1...

For private flying, in my opinion, you'll get far better value out of a Rotax 900 series engine in a 2-seater, than a Thielert Diesel in anything. They run very inexpensively on MOGAS, are fairly easily owner-maintainable, and there's plenty of support for them.

last but not least:I've been told that ALL cessna aircraft need to have their wings inspected which means £££,is that true or is it just a rumour??

Many of the singles, not all, and yes it can be expensive. But only REALLY expensive, if there was a mainspar crack found - and compared to not finding that crack, that's still cheap. The simple solution however is only buy an aircraft that's already had the checks done.

The other really good reason not to buy a Cessna as a private owner is that whilst the 152 and 172 are two of the best training aeroplanes ever designed, there are just so many other - usually more fun - choices out there. Lots of those will be cheaper to run than any Cessna as well.

G

AdamFrisch

6th Sep 2014, 09:27

When in doubt - always buy;)

I don't regret at all the day I decided to become an aircraft owner. Yes, it has its ups and downs, but overall it's great. Go buy a plane.

Jan Olieslagers

6th Sep 2014, 12:56

Repeating some things already said...

The first thing to know - but one of the hardest - is how much flying you are going to do. If you never owned a plane you are sure to overestimate this. 50 hours per annum is on the high side, generally speaking.

IF flying no more than that, the diesels will not be worth the higher cost for acquisition and maintenance. For their lower fuel cost they are much in demand at training organisations.

IF flying no more than 50 hours per annum, do consider a syndicate, especially if you are in a country where these are common, like the U.K.

IF cost is an important factor AND you like tinkering than consider getting an Annex II - you said microlights are not for you, but an antique or homebuilt could be ok. The cost of maintenance will be substantially lower, but all that tinkering will leave you still less time to go flying. Ask me how I know!

dubbleyew eight

6th Sep 2014, 14:07

a good homebuilt with an O-200 engine.:ok:

Rod1

6th Sep 2014, 18:41

Where are you based?

Where do you want to fly to with no Avgas.

What range / speed do you have in mind?

What is your budget?

Are you VFR only or do you plan to get an IR?

Rod1

PrivateAviator

7th Sep 2014, 23:09

Hi all,

thanks a million for all the answers,very much appreciated :ok:

It's always good to hear other people's opinion as you always learn something new.

What I've come up with is:

I want to fly,a lot,or at least yes,I'd say 50 hours a year.
I love travelling,and if I could do it with my own plane it would be super cool.
I hate having to share it with people,mostly for the hassle of having to talk to each other all the time,organizing the planning and so forth.
I've just met two guys who own a jodel (one each) both registered in germany and both on permit to fly.
That way they save loads of $$ on maintenance costs and taxes (I'll be based in italy,but it doesn't have to be italian registered,on the contrary,I'd rather keep it registered abroad as it would be far better with taxes,permits and bureacracy).

they run on mogas.

and yes,I've reached the conclusion that two seats are just enough,it rarely happens that I take some more people with me more than my gf,so I wouldn't bother in getting a bigger engine (at least 160 hp I think) for all the flying when it's not needed.

I have IR,yes,but I think most of the flying will be VFR (honestly,the IFR cruise is sooo boring) it would be really handy to have the plane IFR certified but it ain't easy to find.

I have a question tho,which might be a bit tricky and lenghty.

I guess there's no common european regulation right?
I'm referring to ownership and maintenance,permit to fly certificates and so on.

I'll just give an example:

I've seen two airplanes for sale,one in france,one in the UK;
the first one is registered F and the other in Germany.

I dont think they are IFR certified (I'm still waiting to get a reply from the seller),but once I buy the plane,can I change the country registration (i.e. bring it from F to D registration?).
let's say the plane is NOT IFR certified,can I add the instruments myself (through a maintenance organization of course)and then have it re-certified?

if an aircraft has a certificate of airworthiness,is it possible to change it into a permit to fly so that I can do the basic maintenance?is it worthy or useless?

last but not least,let me please thank you all for your support.
I'm very new into this and I'm just trying to figure out all possible aspects to avoid any nasty surprise and to find what's best for me.

I have a lot of time to kill before I can meet up with my friends who already own the planes so I decided to start this thread just to see if I can learn some more.

once again,thank you all!

PA

ChickenHouse

8th Sep 2014, 14:20

P.A. you are opening up the whole pandoras box. It might be advisable to cut things in smaller digestible pieces ;-).

I try to fetch some spontaneous thoughts.

Owning a 172 is more affordable then renting, but not as much as you would expect. I did some math on the TCO calculus sheet of my 172 and at 50 hours per year only, it would be more expensive then renting. The significant difference is availability - as a renter I was doing about 50h, mainly due to non-availability of the planes at the local airport at summer sunny days. Now as an owner I am into 120-150 hours per year and costs per hour are about 2/3 of renting. Do the simple math on total money spent per year = at 2/3 but 3 times you spent twice the original thought money ... ;-).

Hint 1: you most probably will not be happy after quite a short time with a 2-seater, if you have spouse, kids etc. You come along alone with some occasional friends, but long run family go 4-seater. The argument to own 2-seater and rent 4-seater if required is a non-argument - they will all be gone on sunny summer days, when everybody wants to fly ...

Diesel engines are cheaper to run on fuel, but more expensive to buy and maintain. For now, there is no need to go Jet A-1 until you are going Africa, where Avgas is of short supply. Look for Mogas and even more interesting Autofuel STCs - i.e. many old O-300 C172 can be flown on autofuel. Thielert/Technify engine do not have TBO (!), they have TBR = Time Between Replacement. They are not OH overhauled, but thrown away and replaced. Having a new engine every 1200 hours (155 HP version) might be appealing, but also expensive. Both, 135 and 155 HP engines also have this nasty clutch with very low TBR time, I guess to remember older once every 300h, new every 600, but somebody has to confirm that.

The corrosion inspection from the "Aging Aircraft Initiative" did hurt old Cessna owners during the last 2 years, but all other manufacturers will follow, so no difference to every other aircraft.

Re-registering an airworthy aircraft is almost always possible, if it is some common machine, but up to impossible for others. Register-traveling/immigration is a quite common game for certain planes ;-). If you have a plane in sight, you have to dig into each separately, as this issue can be dependent on all kind of things in the machine. We just had one machine grounded upon owner change, as the new owner has no grandfathering rights and may be subject to different requirements (in such case the old owner had 3-eyes shut ARCs on his 28V installation - the new one has to replace 80% of the cockpit with 14V versions now).

Rod1

8th Sep 2014, 15:38

"Hint 1: you most probably will not be happy after quite a short time with a 2-seater, if you have spouse, kids etc. You come along alone with soe occasional friends, "

Not my experience. I owned 4 seaters (well, aircraft with 4 seats) for around 16 years and have owned a 2 seater for 8 years - no plan to go back. Family with 2 kids all love to fly but want to sit in the front and get involved. To get the family in, in one go, I would need an aircraft with at least 180hp. My old 172 would just have managed 3 of us.

"The corrosion inspection from the "Aging Aircraft Initiative" did hurt old Cessna owners during the last 2 years, but all other manufacturers will follow, so no difference to every other aircraft."

So you are telling us that a wooden Jodel is going to need an aging aircraft corrosion inspection:ugh:

Rod1

Genghis the Engineer

8th Sep 2014, 16:19

I guess there's no common european regulation right?
I'm referring to ownership and maintenance,permit to fly certificates and so on.

I'll just give an example:

I've seen two airplanes for sale,one in france,one in the UK;
the first one is registered F and the other in Germany.

I dont think they are IFR certified (I'm still waiting to get a reply from the seller),but once I buy the plane,can I change the country registration (i.e. bring it from F to D registration?).
let's say the plane is NOT IFR certified,can I add the instruments myself (through a maintenance organization of course)and then have it re-certified?

if an aircraft has a certificate of airworthiness,is it possible to change it into a permit to fly so that I can do the basic maintenance?is it worthy or useless?

Most European countries, only something with a CofA can fly IFR, regardless of instrument fit. That may be changing shortly in the UK, and I think that there are a few countries where you already can, but a small number.

If it does have an EASA CofA switching register is pretty straightforward. A national CofA may be possible, may not. If it doesn't have a CofA, it's nearly impossible.

There is a cross-European sub-CofA document called an "EASA Permit to Fly", but not many aeroplanes have it, and fewer people understand what to do with it.

G

ChickenHouse

8th Sep 2014, 18:14

So you are telling us that a wooden Jodel is going to need an aging aircraft corrosion inspection

Not me, but I am pretty sure it'll come as a result of the AAI efforts ...

PrivateAviator

8th Sep 2014, 22:26

you are opening up the whole pandoras box

yeah I thought about it and I'm sorry....but I have to start from somewhere right?

as the new owner has no grandfathering rights

I have no idea what that means.....:confused:

Well,it all seems very blurred at this time to be honest.

I have a CPL with IR,so it would be cool to be able to fly IFR,but you're telling me that if the aircraft is on a permit to fly (national or EASA) it cannot be certified to fly IFR,even if I have on board instruments comparable to an A320.
on the contrary,if it's on a CofA,I can.

is this correct?

let's say the plane I'm looking is D registered,owned by a brit ,based in the UK.
What are the things (and where) that I need to look NOT to run into bad surprises or troubles?

I mean,if I buy such a plane,what do I have to do,just change the ownership?
I guess that the taxes that I would have to pay (early?) would be based on the country of registration of the aircraft,in this case germany.

is that correct?

boy it all sounds sooo complicated :ugh:

thanks all once again

PA

ChickenHouse

9th Sep 2014, 07:53

Relax, once you get used to the crude "logics" of our beloved elected leftovers, you will feel much better about your own capabilities.

Just a hint - take a small booklet. You remember the old analog iPads made from paper with existing pages and served with a pen, do you? That's the one to get. Let 10 pages in the front blank - there you will have your contents register and it is not filled automatically, but from what you believe is important. Start on page 11 on the top and write down one simple question. If you have another question, write it on another page on top. If you get answers, write them to the question. If answers refer to other questions, refer to it. If answers raise new questions, refer to it and write the question on another pages on the top. Got it? By real writing, instead of typing in the computer, the spiderweb of dependencies forms and begins to map into your head for a better understanding. This enables your brain to guide you and that is much more satisfying then short term memorized chatting on the internet. Once you get old, pass that booklet to your great grandkids and see their wide open eyes for such a relict.

Now back to the chatting.

Grandfathering means that rights once collected are granted still if the underlying regulation changes. You get a lifelong permit to fly, under grandfathering nobody will question that again. You got a STC allowing you to fly MOGAS in a C172, under grandfathering this will stay with you, even if new environmental ideologies won't allow to issue it currently. Grandfathering was one of the basic concepts i.e. in former Germany and some of it leaked into our EU(dSSR) world. In some cases grandfathering in aviation is conditional, meaning it may be connected to the legal status of a plane. If you keep the machine, the rights stay with you. If you change owner, some grandfathering rights may not be transferred to the new owner.

The above is quite a tricky part and leads to the suggestion to talk to your local shop, before you lay an eye on buying a plane. Get acquainted to Part M and Part 145, shops are quite different and later you will rely on them to some extend. Some shops are more relaxed on checking machines, some are pennypicker. Find out what your local one is.

Prepare to learn the basics of regulation. Very quickly you will find out that your shop knows almost nothing about your special machine. You have to research the regulations with an exclusive view on your machine. If you don't want to do that, get a very basic standard C172 and let the sale be arranged from your shop. In that case buy a plane which the shop knows for years. In that case the former owner most likely tought the shop what to do and think.

IFR on a permit to fly is a very bad idea in EASAland. As there is no country EASAland, you have to check for each country what you are allowed with your special permit to fly and what not. For some countries a simple question for "am I allowed to fly the route from A to B in your country" can take weeks to find out where to send it to, month to get a reply, quarters to understand whether the reply is an answer and a year in advance to be on the safe side. There are certain ways to get a permit to fly plane allowed (not certified!) to fly IFR, but you don't want to dig through the individual stories of hundreds of pages written from people who had success. Yes, if you own an Airbus A380 fully equipped and it is on a permit to fly, you might be unable to fly IFR legally, but the old C182 right next to it can. For a first plane, go CofA.

Re-registering of a CofA plane is usually not a big deal, as long as it has a valid airworthiness certificate ARC. But, local regulations may press you for modifications, so get prepared to have the plane grounded for about three month after purchase until all changes applied. Take for example a D-reg plane, which is allowed by German regulation to run certain instruments and parts "on condition" for private use, meaning to overrule the lifetime settings of the manufacturer. Parts may be things like the engine operating "on condition" after the TBO time, operating hours and/or running hours. These "on condition" rules are local extensions of regulations and they may be different. I guess to remember G-reg is more strict on running "on condition" then D-reg is. So, you might see a C172 with an old O-300, which has TBO 12 years and 1,800 hours, running at 2.000 hours after 20 years TimeSinceOverHaul under D-reg. If I remember correctly the UK will not accept "on condition" parts when entering G-reg, so the old owner could continue running "on condition" and if you let it under D-reg, you as well, but if you change to G-reg you have to OverHaul all the whatshallwecallit parts.

In detail, these surprises will be different for almost every single plane. So, be prepared to spend some time for the history of a plane to purchase and to dig into the specialities of it.

There are two things to really keep a sharp eye on it right up front when buying.
One is, the aviation and maintenance history file has to be absolutely complete - no part in the machine not documented, when was it built in, where did it come from, are all Form One certificates basted as originals (do not, never ever, accept photocopies), etceteras. You must be able to look in the aircraft file and reconstruct the complete flying and maintenance history of the plane. If you can't, don't buy - even if you find a clerk letting you pass registration, you will find bad surprises later.
Second, check for a VAT receipt. If you buy from private no VAT applies, BUT big BUT, you have to document that EU VAT was paid once in the lifetime of the plane. If you buy from a dealer, you have to pay local VAT and everything is fine (I haven't heard of used aircraft dealer, but there may be some). There are some exemption regulations for elder planes, but they are diluted by country specific rules. Some will tell you that you don't need VAT documentation for a plane older then X, but most of these urban legends are grandfathering and not necessarily transferable. Most diligent aircraft owner do have a receipt in history register, so in many cases it is not that complicated, but some aircraft files are ready to get burned together with the plane ... There is an old deadline date, of which goods manufactured before are tax exempt, but the crux is to document unambiguously that the aircraft was stationed in the EU without leaving longer then 180 days in a piece. If you have all hangar receipts from the very beginning, that's easy, but who has for a 50 year old plane?

Depending on the country the plane of dreams is registered, make also sure there are no third party rights on the plane. In Germany it is uncommon to finance a private plane (most banks won't do that anyways), but the Netherlands or UK might have a loan in the back of the machine.

Only buy from a seller you trust, or at least with a pre-buy inspection by a person you trust.

It is not complicated, it is just a huge pile of paper to understand ;-).

Go on.

(Missing comma and misspellings are meant to entertain the reader as a feature)