Operating FAA Experimental type outside the US

[Unusual Attitude]

Anyone know if its possible?

Not for everyday use but I note the Red Bull aircraft are mostly FAA Experimental so it must be possible to operate such aircraft outside the US?

I've done a load of digging around the FAA website but am going around in circles and wondered if anyone knew the quick answer!

Any advice / experieces greatly apprecated.

Regards

UA

[S-Works]

They are required to go onto a Cof A or a permit to fly if operated permanently in Europe.

[9 lives]

An aircraft operating under a "flight authority" (flight permit, in most cases), can usually operate, with restrictions in other nations, subject to application for a local flight authority, or validation of the foreign one. This should be considered temporary, right down to might be only one flight - like a ferry flight transit through a country.

[Rod1]

No problem for 28 days (total in the UK over a year) - longer is theoretically possible by special permission form the CAA.

Rod1

[Silvaire1]

I understand some European countries allow N-registered Experimental category aircraft to operate with permission renewed yearly. You see them based permanently in Germany, for instance.

On a tangential note, a guy I know unloaded his N-registered Experimental Exhibition aircraft for the World Aerobatic Championship in Italy, and was surprised when nobody asked him anything whatsoever about insurance or permission to fly.

[Mark 1]

You can operate a US experimental in Canada, Mexico and the Bahamas without applying for permission as there are standard forms of authority.
Everywhere else requires that you apply for an exemption from having a standard airworthiness certificate.

I gather that extended permissions have been granted to US citizens temporarily relocated to Europe, though the standard permission is as described above.
The amount charged for those exemptions can vary widely from country to country too.

Don't forget that if you get granted extended stay in one European country it doesn't give you free circulation to any others.

You will also have to comply with the insurance requirements of the local authority.

[ChickenHouse]

Operating N-reg planes is not bis issue, the only thing you need is the respective permission to enter each country (usually issued for 6 month, the old 1 year permits are qute rare nowadays) - but, as there is no country authority "Europe" you have to do this for each separate. So, travelling across Europe with N-reg can be tricky.

US Experimental is even more tricky, as you have to check each and every countries requirements to allow N-reg Experimental to operate in their airspace. Some require noise certificates, some certified inspection, or don't allow that specific experimental to fly their country. Usually permits for Experimental are limited to 3 month, so if you try to do such, be prepared to fight a huge load of paperwork and frequently. You may not need a big purse such as Red Bull, but it is a costly business.

[Silvaire1]

Operating N-reg planes is not big issue, the only thing you need is the respective permission to enter each country (usually issued for 6 month, the old 1 year permits are qute rare nowadays) - but, as there is no country authority "Europe" you have to do this for each separate. So, travelling across Europe with N-reg can be tricky.

Obviously N-registered aircraft with a standard ICAO compliant FAA airworthiness certificate require no such thing.

[Unusual Attitude]

Thanks for the info gents, just trying to get a few options lined up before deciding the way forward.

Max 28 days per year in the UK wouldn't be an issue as it would only be required for test flying, the races themselves are likely to all be outside of the UK for the moment (Europe and US)

Can this still be done however given that I'm a none US citizen?

Regards

UA

[Genghis the Engineer]

Thanks for the info gents, just trying to get a few options lined up before deciding the way forward.

Max 28 days per year in the UK wouldn't be an issue as it would only be required for test flying, the races themselves are likely to all be outside of the UK for the moment (Europe and US)

Can this still be done however given that I'm a none US citizen?

Regards

UA

Might be worth dropping me a line if you need some specialist help - this sort of thing is within my skillset.

The UK CAA is generally pretty comfortable about sub-ICAO aeroplanes with some form of existing permission to fly being brought into the UK for a short period (3 months is rarely much of a problem), so long as they can see you've got a sensible structure behind it for your flight test activities, the flying you want to do would have been legal in the state of registry, and liability (3rd party and passenger) insurance is in place.

Many people have brought such aeroplanes into the UK for evaluation purposes for a declared fixed period of time, without any particular concerns anywhere.

Your test pilot needs a 61.75 derivative PPL on the back of his EASA/UK/whatever licence, and you need to declare your plans to CAA GA department at Gatwick who'll normally be pretty helpful. Citizenship's not generally an issue.

G

[Unusual Attitude]

Thanks kindly Genghis, you will shortly have mail!

Regards

UA

[Mark 1]

You can fly an N-reg experimental in the UK on a UK licence. The 61.75 is required in the US. (FAR pt61.3 : However, when the aircraft is operated within a foreign country, a pilot license issued by that country may be used

Non-US citizen is not a problem. The registered owner must be a US citizen or corporation, but there are relatively low cost routes to ownership through a trust or umbrella corporation.

[Unusual Attitude]

Sorry to drag this up a bit late but its now become a very real scenario.

Ownership is no issue via a US trust, that's in hand, the aircraft will reside in the US most of the year and only come to Europe for racing. Now as I understand it from the above, is it correct that I can legally fly an FAA experimental in Europe on my existing EASA licence?

Will that also cover me for flying it within US territories given there now seems to be a bilateral agreement in place?

Feedback very greatly appreciated as I have an awful lot to sort out right now!

Regards

UA

[dont overfil]

Sorry to drag this up a bit late but its now become a very real scenario.

Ownership is no issue via a US trust, that's in hand, the aircraft will reside in the US most of the year and only come to Europe for racing. Now as I understand it from the above, is it correct that I can legally fly an FAA experimental in Europe on my existing EASA licence?

Will that also cover me for flying it within US territories given there now seems to be a bilateral agreement in place?

Feedback very greatly appreciated as I have an awful lot to sort out right now!

Regards

UA
Assuming you have a UK issued EASA licence you can use the aircraft in the UK.
However, to use an N reg in Europe (or the USA) you will need at a minimum an FAA 61.75 certificate.

[Unusual Attitude]

Thanks for that DO,

I do indeed have a UK issued EASA licence however I would have assumed it would work in the same manner anywhere in Europe?

Oh well, I guess a wee trip to the states is on the cards ahead of the first race...

Regards

Des

[markkal]

Italy has a 60 days one and only allowance prior request on FAA experimental N reg, and France heard they are banned.

Can anyone comment on this as I am directly concerned..

[flyingfemme]

Sadly (for us pilots) EASA is not a "country" nor is it an ICAO signatory. The individual members of EASA are countries and issue EASA compliant licences that they have all agreed to honour but the USA is not part of the club.
The bilateral agreement has been long promised but not yet happened.
The CAA will issue a permit on payment of a fee (I think it was £75 last time I did it), production of certain documents and a reason to be flying the aircraft here. A month should not be a problem but each new application will have to be paid for again, so think it out before you apply. They are efficient and work via email and phone.
Each country that you wish to fly in, apart from the UK, will also need a permit, as well as any that you need to overfly to get there. The procedures to get these are different for each country and can be quite expensive and/or restrictve.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Thanks kindly Genghis, you will shortly have mail!

Regards

UA

I just tried to find that email - but can't find anything.

I have a vague recollection of getting something, but really can't remember exactly what you said, or if/how I replied. My deep and grovelling apologies if you are still waiting for my reply 15 months later, but I hope you're not.

G