National Identity Cards

[ex-fast-jets]

Cutting across several threads that are currently newsworthy...................

I suppose that an individual identity card for every "legal" UK resident, and the right of the police to stop and ask to see it, infringes the human rights of................... exactly who??

Where are my "human rights"??

[Lima Juliet]

We could call it a Passport...:ok:

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Good question; where are they?
Under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, I have the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure, the right of liberty, and the right not to be arbitrarily detained.
In other words, I can't be stopped unless the Police / RCMP have a good reason for doing so, and they have to tell me what that reason is, immediately.
The problem with ID cards is that the Police find it both a lot easier to justify stopping you, and they have an immediate reason for detaining you for not having the ID in your possession. Doesn't matter that you left it in your other pants pocket, or you are wearing swimming trunks. Everyone on a nudist beach is now breaking the Law.
In short, ID cards are carte blanche for the Police to stop anyone they feel like stopping. Do the UK Police abuse Stop and Search rights? Ask a black guy.

[500N]

I suppose that an individual identity card for every "legal" UK resident, and the right of the police to stop and ask to see it,

The minute you tie up the two together you will lose the argument and or whoever is in power will get thrown out at the next election.

Hell, even trying to bring in a "individual identity card" is fraught with danger for pollies.

I might have in the past supported it but as Fox3 said, for his reasons,
no longer, gives too much power to the Police.

[NutLoose]

Trouble with an ID is it's only good until it's faked and once faked it's worthless. The last failed effort that wasted billions and we would have had to pay for as individuals ( talk about forced taxation) had already been rejected by the likes of Japan as unworkable.

That and how would it prevent terrorism? The London tube bombers would have been legitimate ID carrying individuals.

You'd be better off using the dog identification system and injecting it under the skin...... Talk about Big Brother.




.

[Capetonian]

Do the UK Police abuse Stop and Search rights? Ask a black guy. ....... and then look up the statistics for the proportion of crimes committed by 'black guys' compared to their representation as a percentage of the population.
I would be very happy to have to carry an ID card if I knew that every other legal resident had to do the same.

[Stendec5]

Auswisse bitte. SCHNELL. Only a matter of time I suppose.

[NutLoose]

But that won't happen and visitors from abroad would not need to have one, and they are one of the largest threats, not workable and just another big brother move to repress the populace.

[500N]

Cape

Carrying it and having to produce it on demand and / or stop and search at any time are two different things.

Anyone who drives effectively has an ID card which you must have when driving.

[Tashengurt]

Cheap shot fox3. I police one the most diverse areas of a major city. Come and look at my stop/ search records.
I stop people I need to account for their movements. I search people who I need to search. One of the last had three kitchen knives in his waistband.
Racist Police is an easy line. I fail to see why anyone with such views would choose a career when they are subject to constant scrutiny.
With few exceptions, all my colleagues Police without prejudice or favour with the single goal of catching criminals. There is no, zero, incentive for targetting people according to their skin colour.
I invite you to join me on patrol should you doubt me.


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[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I used to know a black guy in Wandsworth, early 90's. He got stopped 5 times in his first 10 days in the area. On the fifth occasion they pulled him in for questioning. Crime? Driving an expensive car. After two hours holding him in the drunk tank on a Friday night, they interviewed him and asked him how he could afford a BMW. "I'm the new Council Race Relations Officer"
Maybe it's changed Tash. Only Police Officers I've known have been lovely blokes. They found my pushbike the only time it was taken, but I've always lived in nice places. People who don't tell me there's still a few bad apples, and they can make people's lives a nightmare.

[Al R]

Not for me thanks.

Why not? Because as an institution, I don't trust the police force any longer to do the right thing as often as I used to, because I don't trust the expensive quango tasked with introducing and running the scheme, because I don't trust politicians not to look on them as the thin end if the wedge, because they'll cost a fortune and because they'll prove ineffective and worthless over time. Also, they allow terrorists to win and out of principle, why on earth would we want to erode even more rights in favour of the ever larger and intrusive state and why do we need to keep criminalising people for violating yet another political imperative? Haven't we had enough increasingly restrictive new laws these past 15-20 years?

[Typhoon93]

I'm no fan of the Police, however in their defence, the days of racist coppers are long gone. You will naturally get the odd bad apple but it isn't the norm.

Saying that police officers nowadays are racist (at least in the UK) is akin to saying members of the armed forces are murderers. Both statements are inaccurate and represent extremist views. How it was "back in the day" in terms of policing is not accurate in 2014.

In the early 90's I was only a young baby so I am not aware of how it was then, although it's certainly not that way now, at least not in the UK.

[500N]

Tashengurt

If the Police can be influenced by the Pollies and a Chief Commissioner NOT to go hard on crims, certain crime groups (read races) etc and to do the "community policing" instead of banging a few heads occasionally, then it can also happen the other way, that certain races et al can be targeted.

Read the Heinous Beheading thread and the link to a cops story about why the Lebanese run riot around Sydney for an example of political interference.

[Tashengurt]

Fox 3.
In the early nineties I had a 30" waist and hair. Things have changed.
I work a really horrible area. I barely have time to tick all the boxes I have to. Covering my tracks for being racist would take time I don't have.
That doesn't stop people telling me I am if they think it'll scare me off though.
They didn't even find my bike! (Kona Lavadome in midnight blue with Manitou forks.)


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[Capetonian]

But that won't happen and visitors from abroad would not need to have one, and they are one of the largest threatsVisitors from abroad, assuming they entered the country legally, would have a passport or national identity card. I see no reason not to expect them to produce it on demand to prove that they have entered the country legally.

Of course the politicians believe differently which is why the UK harbours hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens, many of whom are harmless, but it only takes a few bad ones to do a lot of harm.

Anyone who drives effectively has an ID card which you must have when driving.Plenty of people don't have a driving licence (some of them drive!) and there is no obligation to carry or produce a driving licence when one is not driving.

[NutLoose]

You still have your hair, you like myself is simply growing up through it. :E

[Tashengurt]

500N
No. They can't. We get targets and priorities and taskings and then we Police.



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[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

This is off the topic a bit, but Policing (not Policemen/women) was my final straw in deciding to leave the UK permanently.
2008 'Feral' yob who killed trucker with a concrete missile jailed for just three years | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-513097/Feral-yob-killed-trucker-concrete-missile-jailed-just-years.html)
I used to drive under that bridge twice a week. That little **** was out after 2 years, no doubt still bragging about it.
There was racist graffiti sprayed on a wall opposite my house, aimed at someone two doors down. She reported it, gave them a lead. Zero action. My car keys were stolen off my school desk one lunchhour. No investigation other than interviews. I was sent a victim support officer despite expressly saying I didn't want them to go to the expense "Procedure, Sir". Police told the caretakers not to approach intruders as they were "all armed with knives", but didn't tell me, the Head or anyone of the other victims that.
With respect Tash, the UK system now makes the Police chase targets, not criminals. Then the Justice system lets the crims out.

[NutLoose]

Of course the politicians believe differently which is why the UK harbours hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens, many of whom are harmless, but it only takes a few bad ones to do a lot of harm.


And the first thing they do? Dispose of there identities, as the UK cannot deport them back to a Country if they do not know the Country they came from.

Bringing in an ID card system when the borders are not secure is like branding your own horses whilst leaving the gate open to your neighbours fields.

[Shack37]

We could call it a Passport...:ok:


At the price mine cost...........no ta.

[Tashengurt]

Fox3. We agree on that. Targets are king. Fortunately, we're so run off our arses trying to keep a li
d on amidst the cuts, they're meaningless!


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[Capetonian]

Bringing in an ID card system when the borders are not secure is like branding your own horses whilst leaving the gate open to your neighbours fieldsTrue, but the flaw in that argument is that the borders are reasonably secure at the point of entry, but since there are no exit controls, many who entered legally become illegal when their visas run out or they change the purpose of their stay, and simply get lost in the system with no accountability.

So here's another solution. Anyone stopped and asked to produce identity and unable to do so is detained until they can do so, or otherwise prove their legal status.

There is no good answer to this problem, but there has to be a better one than the current situation where illegals and criminals just stick two fingers up at the law, and law-abiding people.

[Tashengurt]

By the way. I don't want an ID card.
Why should I have to identify myself if I'm out doing no harm?


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[500N]

Targets are king.

So what is the point of targets if they are meaningless !

[Tashengurt]

Capetonian,
We've got brilliant powers of arrest. We don't need any more. Really.


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[500N]

is that the borders are reasonably secure at the point of entry,Bullshyte.

The UK has more holes in it than Swiss cheese.


Visas running out is another issue entirely.

[Tashengurt]

500N
That sir, is a political question.


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[Capetonian]

It's a hell of a lot more secure than any of the Schengen area countries. Do you have any support for your point that the UK has more holes in it than Swiss cheese? As I've worked fairly closely with the authorities at several airport entry points I'd disagree with you.

I would imagine that someone with more knowledge than I have might be able to suggest how many get in through private airfields and via the coast but I would guess it's pretty low compare to the non-existent controls on Schengen countries.

[500N]

Cape

You said

borders are reasonably secure at the point of entry

You did NOT say airports. Of course airports are one of the most secure,
you are channeled into certain areas where you need docs.

The UK border is not secure because of it's closeness to Europe via sea and Eire and of course the tunnel.

[Stendec5]

Get the picture? White Brits must be all things to all men...err sorry, all persons.
Non racist, non sexist, non homophobic, non islamaphobic, non heightist, non sizeist, non judgementalist, compassionate, understanding, willing to sacrifice their heritage, culture and future to obviously superior systems (read the papers lately?)

You no longer live here then, eh fox 3? Shouting from the sidelines, eh?

[500N]

Non racist, non sexist, non homophobic, non islamaphobic, non heightist, non sizeist, non judgementalist, compassionate, understanding,

Lucky I don't live in the UK any more then if I had to adhere to that lot !

[Tankertrashnav]

Anyone who drives effectively has an ID card which you must have when driving.

I dont think anyone has picked you up on that,500N It may be true for Australia, but in the UK there is no requirement to have your driving licence with you when driving.

Non racist, non sexist, non homophobic, non islamaphobic, non heightist, non sizeist, non judgementalist, compassionate, understanding,

Up to there these all seem admirable traits (dont forget not anti Semitic), however I dont see what the second half of your post has to do with the first. Is that a non sequitur? My Latin is a little rusty!

[Hempy]

Non racist, non sexist, non homophobic, non islamaphobic, non heightist, non sizeist, non judgementalist, compassionate, understanding,

Lucky I don't live in the UK any more then if I had to adhere to that lot !

Probably the most honest thing you've posted on these boards.

Australia tried to implement a national ID card (the Australia Card) in the mid 80's. It didn't take, so we went down the US Social Security number path (Tax File Number) instead.

I'm actually a bit surprised that the Coalition hasn't tried it again during their current term, Howard tried it again in 2005 but lost office.

[500N]

the Australia Card

Wasn't that a debacle.

[Genstabler]

During the war everyone had an ID card. I had one as a child when I lived in Malaya during the emergency. We are effectively at war now. If ID cards increase security, I reckon I can put up with the resultant minute loss of personal liberty and privacy.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Stendec - please note I am not telling anyone what to do - that's your choice, not mine. I've just stated my experience in an attempt to inform the debate;and it seems Tash agrees. So, not shouting.

[500N]

I dont think anyone has picked you up on that,500N It may be true for Australia, but in the UK there is no requirement to have your driving licence with you when driving.

OK, thanks for the correction.

[GreenKnight121]

Hmmm... so Australia is with the US then?

In every state and Federal district driving without your license in your possession is a crime - a minor one (misdemeanor) that is normally just a monetary fine (you are written a citation and are allowed to go on your way as long as you don't keep driving), and can be dismissed if you convince the judge that your reason was a good one and that you won't do it again - but a crime nonetheless.

[MPN11]

I recall the day when I finally handed in my F1250, and suddenly (amiss all the other various emotions) realised that I no longer had a way of instantly proving my identity. This was back in the days of the awful multi-fold Driving Licence, so that was no substitute.

Now, on this little Island, I have a neat little credit-card Driving Licence (always in my wallet, and a great comfort when in the USA, as noted above). I also have my Jersey Health Card, proving that I am part of the Social Security system. In the near future I will also have the newly-introduced Residency Card, asserting my right to own/occupy property. I'm happy to produce any of these on demand if there's a good reason.

My RBL, RAFA and Waitrose membership cards are perhaps less useful. ;)

[ShotOne]

What problem is an ID card supposed to solve? How would the 7/7 bombings or Lee Rigbys killing been different had the murderers had ID cards in their pockets??

[Capetonian]

None at all, but by reducing the number of unaccountable illegal aliens in the country, general crime levels will go down, and the strain on resources will become less.

[Tashengurt]

Bit of a leap of thought there Capetonian. Identifying illegals and getting rid of them are two entirely different kettles of fish.


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[Capetonian]

First step is identifying them, until that process starts there is a 0% chance of getting rid of them.

[NutLoose]

Is not rocket science though, if they have no national Insurance number, cannot speak the Language and cannot produce a birth certificate that they are not from the UK..
My bone of contention is after processing these illegals, they are often released, pending a decision to dissappear back into the populace.

Personally I would adopt the Aussie practice and house them on an Island off Scotland that is not within swimming distance until they remember where their documents are, and if you come off the back of a lorry off the ferry from France, they should be simply deported back to France as you are not fleeing from any persecution. None of this we will look at their case, they don't have one under EU law.

[500N]

Cape

First step, in conjunction with your first step, is to get rid off the pro bono HR lawyers and huggy fluffy lefties, then when you find the illegals, ship them off quick smart - such as straight on a bus or plane and off you go - before you end up with 10 years of legal fights about why they should be allowed to stay.

[Pontius Navigator]

I like the idea of a chip.

No chip, show your ID/passport.

Think how easy that would make passage through an airport.

[Capetonian]

then when you find the illegals, ship them off quick smart -Where to? As someone else said, you can't send them 'home' if you don't know where they came from. You can only send them back to their last point if, for example, you catch them coming in on a lorry through the Channel Tunnel.

I know what my solution would be but it's not one that most people would consider civilised!

[teeteringhead]

Lots of well-expressed (and well-worn :ugh:) arguments for both sides here.....


.... and the connection with Military Aviation is ..............:confused:

[500N]

.... and the connection with Military Aviation is ..............:confused:

Use C-17's to ship them back ;) :O


None.

[Take That]

Good points on the relevance. If anybody needs to know more about the pros, cons and practicalities of introducing, and more importantly, maintaining a UK ID card scheme, I can recommend 'The Blunders of our Governments' by Anthony King and Ivor Crewe. The chapter 'ID Cards Swiped' gives a sobering account of the UK's last attempt, from hitting the Statute Book in 2006 to quietly being scrapped in 2010, at an estimated cost of £300 million.

[A A Gruntpuddock]

Still got my old one from when I was born in 1945!

[N2erk]

Some random thoughts- an identity card is a (plasticized) piece of paper. so was the (fake) drivers license an illegal immigrant used when he stole my son's identity, rented 3 luxury cars which subsequently disappeared, got son's mail redirected (he only accessed the gas bill, which the bu**er didn't pay) and a few other things. He got caught as his skin colour wasn't the same as son's, deported to his homeland and was probably back in Canada before the ink was dry on the 'export certificate'.
I'm 'white', quite familiar with the UK, and can still say "Oh aye" and "yuwha' " with a decent Yorkshire accent, so could probably avoid detection and seizure if I returned to the UK for a long, illegal, stay.
I'm old, bald, and so don't get the "outta the car, kid, licence, ownership & insurance' - now its "good evening sir, routine check, please continue".
I tend to agree with F3's first post, but he has more faith in the "charter of rights and freedoms" and its provisions than I do.

Perhaps the answer is to tattoo an identity number on every legal resident's wrist- as a teaching co-worker once suggested for student ID numbers (he had been in the Hitler youth). We weren't sure if he was joking.....

[N2erk]

I don't know if this is what sparked this thread, but just saw Met police to publish stop and search data | UK news | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/26/met-police-stop-and-search-data)

[Tankertrashnav]

The illegal immigrant argument for ID cards just doesn't wash

France has had compulsory ID cards for as long as I remember, but its full of illegal immigrants - many of them queueing up at Calais to come here.

[Capetonian]

It would work if police had stop and question powers. The fluffies do everything they can to emasculate the forces of law, that is one reason why the whole of Europe (Schengen at least) is awash with illegal aliens.

[Wrathmonk]

many of them queueing up at Calais to come here

Could they be queueing to get away from a land of national ID cards perhaps......;) If the introduction of national ID cards has the effect of illegal immigrants queuing up to get out then bring them on!!!!

[500N]

Tashengurt

"With few exceptions, all my colleagues Police without prejudice or favour with the single goal of catching criminals."

"No. They can't. We get targets and priorities and taskings and then we Police."

It seems even when the criminals are stuck under the noses of Police (and others who are supposed to protect children) they ignore it or do nothing !

So before worrying about ID cards, why not bust the crims that are in front of you ? Even the Ch of South Yorkshire Police was squirming.

And since you refuted the suggestion that race plays a part, from the BBC report:-
"The inquiry team noted fears among council staff of being labelled "racist" if they focused on victims' descriptions of the majority of abusers as "Asian" men."

"It lays out how Rotherham Council and the police knew about the level of child sexual exploitation in the town, but didn't do anything about it. They either didn't believe what they were being told, played it down, or were too nervous to act. The failures, the report says, are blatant."


BBC News - Rotherham child abuse scandal: 1,400 children exploited, report finds (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089)

From this thread
http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/546359-lessons-will-learnt.html

[nutnurse]

@ Fox3

"Everybody on a nudist beach is breaking the law."

Not necessarily. It would just take a little bending and stretching - and I guarantee no police officer will want to handle the card after retrieval.

[BEagle]

Capetonian wrote: It would work if police had stop and question powers.

So do you want to have the 'Pass Law' reinstated? Or police stopping people at random demanding "Ihre Papiere, bitte!".

Having held a 1250 for 35 years, I don't really see the problem with ID cards...

[Capetonian]

So do you want to have the 'Pass Law' reinstated? Or police stopping people at random demanding "Ihre Papiere, bitte!".If you're referring to Pass Laws in South Africa and using it to have a cheap jibe at me on the basis of an assumption that I was in favour of apartheid and its peripheral laws, then ...........no.

If you mean should people be accountable to the authorities for their legal status, then yes. Given that many countries are flooded with illegal aliens who are unaccountable, it would be a step towards making the rest of us safer, and it would reduce the abuse of resources paid for by taxpayers.

Stopping at random? Maybe, but I would prefer to see profiling, but of course that's an unmentionable as it's not PC. Who is more likely to be a criminal, an 80 year old lady hobbling back from drawing her pension at the Post Office and with a loaf of bread in her bag, or a 22 year old with dreadlocks driving a Renault Clito with booming music and blackout windows?

Finally, excuse my ignorance, but what's a 1250?

[Tashengurt]

Stop and question powers in the UK would be tricky given that anyone subject to questioning, save for a few exceptions, is entitled to several legal protections.
Not everything needs a power or law behind it. There's no reason an officer can't engage anyone in conversation. That persons reaction may or may not lead the officer to determine they need to detain them for a search or even arrest them. Much of that comes down to experience and circumstance.

500N,
So which is it? Police are racist for searching too many people 'of colour' or Police are ineffectual for being scared to tackle gangs of abusers due to their race?

[teeteringhead]

Finally, excuse my ignorance, but what's a 1250?

Capers - it is/was the RAF Identity card. (RAF Form 1250) Strictly speaking it's now a "MoD 90" but many of certain years (moi aussi) still refer to it as a "1250", although mine clearly now says MoD Form 90....

[bcgallacher]

The citizens of the UK hold an aversion to any kind of ID card - for the duration of WW 2 cards were issued with the promise that they would be destroyed after hostilities ended. ID cards would not do anything to improve security under present circumstances and it would be a foolish politician who tied to introduce them. The phrase "thin end of the wedge"comes to mind when applied to this subject,we have enough documentation to prove who we are without further infringement of our civil liberties.

[Courtney Mil]

Unfortunately almost anything these days seems to get labeled an infringement of human rights or civil liberties. If having proof of identity or being asked a question by a police person is the worst infringement you have to put up with then I would say you're very lucky.

We have ID cards in France and they are very useful and no one seems to be suffering too badly from having their rights violated and trampled all over. People in the streets don't get all upset when a Gendarme talks to them.

The only people that should get upset about ID cards are the people that don't have them... ...for whatever reason.

[Wrathmonk]

It always amuses me that given this is supposed to be a forum board for mil / ex-mil that so many are opposed to carrying an ID. :confused:

Nothing to hide....nothing to fear ;)

[The Helpful Stacker]

It always amuses me that given this is supposed to be a forum board for mil / ex-mil that so many are opposed to carrying an ID.

Nothing to hide....nothing to fear

Which is fine in theory, but when (given the scheme that was planned for the UK) the particulars are put under closer scrutiny the theory becomes a little more questionable.

For starters this was a government run, IT-based scheme. I don't think it is outlandish to worry about the security and accuracy of such a system given the UK's track record with national government IT systems. Considering this would have been a system with which individuals could prove their legality for a number of reasons I'd say security and accuracy were major concerns.

Then its worth bearing in mind the sluggish nature by which those controlling such government systems adapt to threats from those who may be interested in accessing the information contained within, such as criminal enterprises. Given the breadth of the previously planned system there would have been a wide range of personal information available to those inclined and able to access it in a single one-stop shop.

As has already been stated though, the existence of ID cards is no guarantee of security, indeed an over-reliance on such a system when criminals and potential security threats may have the ability to produce fraudulent cards is actually a dangerous overall weakness. If you can get into the system (and any system is fallible) then a fake ID isn't actually fake at all when consideration is made to said system being the likely means of clarification.

Yes I have a 1250 (it'll be a cold day in hell before I call it an MOD90) but it has a photo of me on it, a few written details and little more else. The proposed UK ID card would/could have had a wide range of details from fingerprints, iris scans, biometric data and a host of other data potentially useful to nefarious characters and all, in case we have forgotten, controlled by the lowest bidder for a government contract.

I for one am glad the scheme died an early death.

[Courtney Mil]

The proposed UK ID card would/could have had a wide range of details from fingerprints, iris scans, biometric data and a host of other data potentially useful to nefarious characters and all, in case we have forgotten, controlled by the lowest bidder for a government contract.

Given that such data is already stored in IT systems for your passport, driving licence, bank cards, etc, I don't really see the issue here.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Given that such data is already stored in IT systems for your passport, driving licence, bank cards, etc, I don't really see the issue here

Systems being the operative word, not a single one-stop shop. A single, fallible system is the issue, which I'm sure was adequately explained in the post which you selected that quote from.

[NutLoose]

It always amuses me that given this is supposed to be a forum board for mil / ex-mil that so many are opposed to carrying an ID. :confused:

Nothing to hide....nothing to fear ;)


As pointed out, it carries far more than a simple ID card, and when you can buy genuine passports off some dubious staff, the system is open to abuse, and that will allow people to hide within the system.
You have to remember the likes of Japan had already rejected the previous system we were going the adopt as unworkable.
Yes I carried a 1250 in the RAF and thought a Nationwide system would have been good at the time, but the older and maybe wiser I get the less i think it is. It is eroding our Civil liberties bit by bit.
I also objected to the Government spending £300 million of public monies on the previous fiasco when the money could have been used elsewhere and then expecting every Cititzen to put their hand into their pockets and pay some £300 to buy the compulsory card, I could afford it, but a lot of folks wouldn't be able to, that was setting a precendent for the future stealth taxes, because that is what it was.

I am getting totally fed up with the Goverrnments bywords for slipping through further restrictions on the publics rights to Civil liberties by spouting off the usual rhetoric " It is needed to counter terrorism"
Horse Crap.... No foreign visitors including long term students on visa's need to be carrying an ID card, and the terrorists involved it the Murder of Trooper Rigby and the London bus and tube bombings would have as said before been legally entitled to an ID card. It's simply another way to attempt press through greater restrictive legislation on the populace under the of thinly veiled "prevention of terrorism"

[ExAscoteer]

Here's a radical idea.

How about the Government going after the bad guys and stop dragging everyone else down to the lowest common denominator?

[Courtney Mil]

Systems being the operative word, not a single one-stop shop. A single, fallible system is the issue, which I'm sure was adequately explained in the post which you selected that quote from.

Why would a NID card be produced by anyone other than the organization that already holds that information in their system?

[Wrathmonk]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the counter-terrorism uses for an National ID card.

But having to carry one would also help the fight against credit card fraud (I had to show my driving licence when making a purchase in the States recently as the chip and pin reader was bust - here, get the PIN wrong (or play dumb and say you've forgotten it) and they'll just ask you to sign the slip. Forging most peoples credit card signatures is not difficult, particularly those whose signatures are little more than scribble....(not that I've tried of course;))).

It would also go a long way to preventing welfare fraud (people signing on at numerous different job centres under different aliases). Thumb print technology (already used on the i Phone (and the free lockers at Universal Studio, Florida!)) would prevent, in a single stroke, individuals being able to make multiple claims. Don't like the policy - don't claim the benefit.

I also recall, back in the day (!), that when the 1250 became the Mod F90 the black magnetic strip on the back was going to be used for all sorts of things (including, IIRC, mess charges, bar charges, meal charges) with ambitious plans for it to be used as a 'virtual cash card'. Allowances would be paid onto 'the card' and you would then swipe the card at a suitable terminal and transfer the money to your bank or arrange for it to be paid in cash. I guess this aspect got overtaken by the great success that was JPA.

THS

and any system is fallible

I take it, therefore, that you do not bank or shop online or use ATMs - after all, these non-government 'systems' have all been proven to be 'fallible' rather than expected to be 'fallible'.

[teeteringhead]

Wrathmonk I also recall, back in the day (!), that when the 1250 became the Mod F90 the black magnetic strip on the back was going to be used for all sorts of things IIRC, the mag strip was there for several of the later iterations of the F1250 too. One, I believe, was to be an "instant check in" for AT - any movers recall if that idea got anywhere? I take it, therefore, that you do not bank or shop online or use ATMs - after all, these non-government 'systems' have all been proven to be 'fallible' rather than expected to be 'fallible'. Of course we do! But we choose to participate in them and - should we lose confidence in them, or for any other reason - we can choose to stop.

That's the difference ........

[keith williams]

It looks like this idea is intended to enable the police to identify “illegal” UK residents. That sounds OK, but what really happens when “illegals” are found? The vast majority certainly won't be deported.

All that is needed is a girlfriend/boyfriend/child or pet dog and they can claim that deportation would infringe their human right to a family life. They would then be given indefinite right to stay, a smart new ID card and passport plus advice on how to claim benefits.

[ExAscoteer]

Who is going to pay for it?

I already have a Passport and a Photocard Driving Licence, both of which prove my identity and both of which cost me money.

Why the **** should I spend more of my hard earned on another form of ID?

[N2erk]

Back to my earlier post- any gov't issued ID card is subject to fraudulent replication and useage- here, our drivers licences are multicolour, with photo, hologram photo, imprinted signature (twice) and magnetic strip, but as I mentioned, was very successfully replicated with different photo in my son's case. The licence number was entered in incorrect format, but it was still accepted on multiple occasions. And who do you think is more likely to be carrying an ID card- the previously mentioned legal 80yr old dear with the loaf of bread, or the dreadlocked visible minority carrying the best forgery money can buy?
Credit card companies/banks have a very large economic interest in maintaining card security, but government does not- it costs them, and we've already seen opposition/complaints about said costs to taxpayers. BTW wrathmonk- I'm surprised that the US knew about chips/pins- we drive the US east coast many times a year and have never seen or heard of them there, nor have sales staff, although we have had them in Canada for years. Even Canadian subsidiaries of US firms often do not have chip card machines. As for signatures, I sign " Moooooo" for small amount charges and have never been challenged yet!
Increased random stops are a questionable means of security as illegals/bad guys are more likely to have 'good' ID, and if you have to stop 20 white-hat looking people to justify stopping 1 black-hat looking person, it wont be long before the public backlash will cut in.
IMHO all ID cards and random stops really do is to make the Government of the day appear to have done something.
Oh and I used to have an FIdent1250- that justifies this post on a milaviation forum!:ok:

[Wrathmonk]

Why the **** should I spend more of my hard earned on another form of ID?

With apologies to teeteringhead....

Because in UK you don't have to have a driving licence .... you choose to.

Because in UK you don't have to have a passport ... you choose to.

Therefore, in this country, you can (by choice, and at present) have absolutely nothing that proves your identity (nor, your country of origin/birth). And that's why the illegals love it here.....the government can't deport you back to whence you came if they can't prove where that is. I wonder how many Iraqi/Afghan/African etc (other category of immigrants are available) passports and/or identity cards are floating in the English Channel or sitting in a landfill in Kent....

[ExAscoteer]

You miss my point entirely Wrathmonk. I have photo ID, two seperate official types. I am ****** if I am going to pay for another form.

However, just so I've got your position right.

In your world people are required to be able to identify themselves via an ID card and have to pay for it?

Good luck with that one.

[NutLoose]

Therefore, in this country, you can (by choice, and at present) have absolutely nothing that proves your identity (nor, your country of origin/birth). And that's why the illegals love it here.....the government can't deport you back to whence you came if they can't prove where that is. I wonder how many Iraqi/Afghan/African etc (other category of immigrants are available) passports and/or identity cards are floating in the English Channel or sitting in a landfill in Kent....

He also missed his own point ExAscoteer,

So let me get this straight, you have said that at the moment because we do not have a compulsory ID system that proves your identity and Country and Origin, you are saying is we should now give everyone in the UK a ID card because that way when Johnny Illegal puts his Country on it you then can deport him?

The £300 million spent in the last ID fiasco could have been spent hiring a few extra staff and making our borders more secure, we are an a Island for gawd sake. I still haven't figured out why trucks don't have bloody great locks on their doors and he likes of Axles and undersides boxed in... Considering the fines imposed on the truck operators it has to be worth the cost.

[Roland Pulfrew]

and undersides boxed in

To make a good hidey-hole (sp?) for illegals?? :}

[Hangarshuffle]

Pretty well agree with everything ex-Ascoteer said.
The Police don't need additional powers, and would be well put to enforce correctly the ones they already have. If a street cop cant spot your average wrong-un face to face without having to ask for an ID card then they should give up.Magistrates and Judges to sentence appropriately and the Prison Service to house and punish the wrongdoer accordingly. Politicians to stay away. Its not rocket science.
I for one would hate to have to carry a card and produce it for scrutiny like an animal having his tags checked at a market.

[Courtney Mil]

If a street cop cant spot your average wrong-un face to face without having to ask for an ID card then they should give up.

How does one do that? What they wear? Colour? Shifty look in the eye? Can't help thinking valid ID is easier. I don't recall ever being allowed into a mil establishment on basis of a guard looking me in the face to determine if I was a "wrong-un."

[Tashengurt]

Courtney. Without wishing to sound too hackneyed, it's a feeling. A sixth sense. I don't know where it comes from but You do develop a sense for who needs further investigation.


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[Rosevidney1]

I never found a 1250 to be an imposition, but the ID chipping could be an interesting avenue worth contemplating - after all my cat was returned after some well meaning soul had spotted it prowling the countryside ( I live on a farm!) and took it to a vet in town 5 miles away. I would like to see what objections there could be.

[Stendec5]

What is the point at any real attempt at "national security" as long as you have an open-door policy on immigration, virtually NO checks. Add to which aging hippies spewing 1960s liberal crap?
We need a new watershed. Back to sanity.

Don't be afraid of liberal insults. "Racist," "sexist," et al (yawn yawn) Just laugh at them and they cease to have any sanction over you.

Simple.

[Wrathmonk]

ExAscoteer

I didn't miss your point. You choose to drive so have paid for a licence and you choose to travel overseas and have paid for a passport. My argument is that you don't have to do either of those. And if you don't then you don't have any photo ID whatsoever. But don't worry, a utility bill or two will suffice. In a similar way I pay for NHS dental care but choose to go private. I don't get a tax refund because of it.

NutLoose

you are saying is we should now give everyone in the UK a ID card because that way when Johnny Illegal puts his Country on it you then can deport him?

:ugh::ugh::ugh: Not what I said but thank you for letting me know that I was missing my own point! I do so love people telling me what I think :hmm:.

Let's make it even simpler - an illegal immigrant cannot get a UK National ID card because.....he's an illegal immigrant. They aren't issued at Dover, Heathrow or wherever. Therefore a key indicator to being an illegal immigrant is not having an ID card (remember, I also said that they tend to ditch their own passports, ID etc before they get here....). There will be plenty of legal immigrants entitled to a UK National ID Card (I'm sure many expats have a National ID card of their country of residence) who have right of residence. I have no problem with that.

[ExAscoteer]

Don't be afraid of liberal insults. "Racist," "sexist," et al (yawn yawn) Just laugh at them and they cease to have any sanction over you.

Simple.

So you think it's OK to routinely discriminate against members of society do you Stendec?

Go you! I'm sure you would have got on well in the Pleiocene.

[500N]

So you think it's OK to routinely discriminate against members of society do you Stendec?Well in the UK it seems PC and "not offending a certain race by using their name" and "council members being afraid of being labelled racist" is more important than actually stopping the crime of child abuse.

The world is truly screwed.

So yes, it is OK in some instances to discriminate.

[MG23]

Let's make it even simpler - an illegal immigrant cannot get a UK National ID card because.....he's an illegal immigrant. They aren't issued at Dover, Heathrow or wherever. Therefore a key indicator to being an illegal immigrant is not having an ID card

OK, so PC Plod stops Joe Illegal, and finds he has no ID card.

Now what?

The government either won't (because fluffy kittens) or can't (because Joe has no ID, so no other country will take him) deport him. So what benefit would this provide to compensate for the substantial cost imposed on British citizens?

[Capetonian]

I was required by the insurers to get various documents including proof of identity for my tenants in respect of my landlord's insurance policy.

One tenant had no passport and no driving licence, nothing unusual about that. I doubt if she's been further than 50 miles from where she was born, in fact make that 10. No library card, I doubt if she's read a book in her life unless Hello magazine counts). She has an NI number but there's no associated card that proves identity.

I emailed the woman from the insurer, and explained this to her. She's Polish, and replied as follows :

"It seems very unusual that in 21st century where we now are, some person can exist without any photographic identity document for their whole life."

I emailed back and said strange it may seem but that's how it is. There should be ID cards.

[Courtney Mil]

This is a timely report for those that keep shouting 'racist!' It chimes rather well with 500N's post.

And no, I'm not one.

From sex abuse gangs to jihadis, the State's fear of seeming 'racist' is letting evil thrive, writes MANZOOR MOGHAL | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2736283/From-sex-abuse-gangs-jihadis-State-s-fear-racist-letting-evil-thrive.html)

[Bladdered]

I flew to Dublin on business a couple of days ago and had to stand in line to have my passport checked as I entered the Republic. On return to Bristol airport there were no checks of passports whatsoever - I could have been anyone walking through the EU Residents only gate!

[500N]

I know various people will or have labelled me as a right wing racist from my posts, having come from a very WASP lifestyle in the UK to spending 30 + years in a very very multi cultural and "mostly" well integrated society,
it is eye opening to see what goes on.

To an extent, the same thing happens here as well, although they tend
now to jump on these issues - like under age and forced marriages !

[Stendec5]

ExAscoteer.

Sorry to disappoint you but I have never discriminated ("routinely" or otherwise) against anyone on the grounds of race, gender etc. Indeed, I am so non-sexist, for example, that I even MARRIED an actual woman.
What I was saying was that there are people of nefarious intent, that USE the racist label to effectively silence people whose views they groove not upon/to close down debates they would rather never took place (immigration, EU, law and order etc).
By simply laughing at them (exercising a part of your freedom that many died to defend) instead of the usual Pavlovian response of terror and denial, you rob them of that sanction. The debate goes on. Democracy lives. They didn't die in vain.

I'm sure Churchill would have had a suitable quote for all this. Ahh Winnie.
Would that you (or an equivalent) were here.