Airways clearance question

[sheldo86]

Hey guys. Newish PPL holder here. Just a quick question about requesting airways clearance.
Say I was departing a CTAF underneath the class C airspace steps and my flight plan was to climb up into the class C airspace and transit through it. When do/can I contact centre for airways clearance? Can I do it on the ground at the CTAF?
For example there are numerous CTAFs under the class C steps around Melbourne where this would occur. What is the normal process?

Thanks in advance!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Yes, you can do it on the ground if you have good comms or airborne on departure. Specific procedures may vary - eg you may get a code when you call Centre while still on the ground and be directed to call Appr airborne for the clearance. If in doubt call Centre and ask them! Generally facilitated if you have a plan in the system - expect a short delay while they put some details in the system for you. If you have a plan in the system and ADSB, they will probably be anticipating your call!

Dr :8

[training wheels]

If you're operating VFR, I would proceed OCTA until approaching the next CTA boundary and request airways clearance prior to reaching the boundary. That way, if you're told to remain outside CTA for clearance, you can then do a few orbits at your present position.

If operating IFR and you need to get to your lowest safe on departure and that's in CTA, then I'd contact them on the ground for clearance.

[tyler_durden_80]

Hi Sheldo86

Where I work, It'd be rare that you get a clearance into class 'C' whilst still taxying. You'd be most likely to receive the clearance once airborne and identified.

If you planned IFR the controller should already be aware, through your flight plan, that you'll be requesting a clearance if your planned level has you transiting through CTA.

If planned VFR, it'll be once you are airborne and identified. Give the controller as much notice as possible, so hopefully you'd be able to avoid any delays whilst a flight plan is found/created.

Cheers
TD80

[5-in-50]

Melbourne Centre, ABC, Cessna 172, taxiing location, to destination, request code

ABC, squawk 1743, contact me airbourne for clearance

1743, ABC

ABC, airbourne location, passing altitude, climbing altitude, request clearance

ABC, you are identified, remain OCTA, contact approach on 123.45 for clearance

OCTA, 123.45, ABC

Melbourne approach, ABC, request clearance

...
(variations are inevitable based on locations)

[sheldo86]

Thanks guys.
Yeah, I should have mentioned, I meant for VFR flight.
So generally speaking, contact ATC once airborne for clearance?
But I can contact them whilst taxiing but they may not give me clearance until airborne?


Some of these CTAFs under the steps at Melbourne are quite tight, eg terrain 500 feet below and class C airspace 500 feet above.


Cheers,
Sheldon

[Jack Ranga]

Sheldon, you WON'T get a VFR clearance on the ground into Class C airspace pretty much anywhere in Australia. In the situation you mention I would give the Melbourne traffic manager a call (number in ERSA) tell him/her that you have a VFR flight plan in the system, you're getting airborne shortly and request the code. Setting it on your transponder prior to airborne will speed up the identification process (you WON'T get a clearance til you're identified).

And W'rTF you do, don't bust airspace til you've got the clearance :ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Sheldon, you WON'T get a VFR clearance on the ground into Class C airspace pretty much anywhere in Australia.

Jack, I don't think you have thought that statement through carefully, have you?

I have lost count of the number of times I have requested and received a clearance VFR into Class C while on the ground! :E

Dr :8

[Squawk7700]

But Jack means in the last 20 years Dr ;)

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

But Jack means in the last 20 years Dr ;)

Watch it Squarky or I'll out ya! :E

[mattyj]

Do what you want..ATC is there to help you. Your airways fees are paying their wages..don't take no for an answer..it's not that busy in Aus..tell them to grow a pair and have a look at radar tracks in Heathrow or LAX

[Jack Ranga]

Let me re-phrase that, you won't get it on the ground south of the Murray. You WON'T get it on the ground at any of the Airports that ring Melbourne that are underneath the Class C steps. It won't happen, it would have to be an exceptional circumstance (like the FTDK was visiting Victoria & they know he's an awesome pilot :ok:)

If you are at a Class D Tower i.e. Albury, you will get your clearance into C because the Class D Tower owns Class C steps.

If you have any questions, PM me :ok:

[Jack Ranga]

And you WILL get the occasional NO. Bitch & moan on the airwaves as much as you like, it won't change anything except gain you a reputation that may see more no's ;)

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Let me re-phrase that, you won't get it on the ground south of the Murray. You WON'T get it on the ground at any of the Airports that ring Melbourne that are underneath the Class C steps.

I suspect that if you are a VFR flight taxying at Essendon and you ask for a clearance, you'll get your clearance into Class C while still on the ground! :E

Only been there a couple of times, but yes, my reputation had preceded me - boys in the tower looked after me well! :ok:

Dr :8

[FokkerInYour12]

Require expedited clearance due Sierra Hotel Mike Bravo Oscar.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

eg terrain 500 feet below and class C airspace 500 feet above.

Sheldo, you don't have to be 500' below C, the airspace boundary level is class G and anything in C will be kept 1000' above you.

I should know.....

UTR.

[Jack Ranga]

Doc, I just said as much! Class D tower. I think sheldo is more talking about departing from CTAF's

[fujii]

Mattyj, VFR aircraft don't pay any airways fees in Australia.

[HarleyD]

Read your ERSA (these letters can be rearranged to spell another word)

Every class D has its own particular 'Australianised' local version of how to do it.

USA is more standardized, but that would be sensible, somehow our air is different?

HD

[Capt Fathom]

Don't they teach this stuff in the syllabus anymore?

[sheldo86]

Yeah, they do teach obtaining clearance.
To be a bit more clear, my question is: when you depart from a CTAF that is under the steps and you are climbing out into class C and you really only have a matter of minutes before you enter into class C because the airfield is high. (Eg YRID which is 1150ft elevation and class C is 2000ft, so only 850 ft above you), is it possible to get airways clearance before you take-off whilst on the ground at the CTAF.


If you train at a class D or a CTAF in the middle of class G then most new PPL holders will never have had to do this.

[fujii]

Riddell 1150, class C 2500 over the top of Riddell with the 3500 step at Monegeetta few miles north. There is a small 2000 ft east of Riddell to contain the ILS.

[sheldo86]

Immediately to the east of the field at 1nm there is Class C at 2000ft and if you are departing NE/E/SE you will be in it in about 1 minute.
Thanks Jack Ranga and the earlier guys for the advice.
I'll submit a flight plan and ask for clearance in the air.

[fujii]

sheldo86, do you fly out of Riddell?

[Capt Claret]

Melbourne Centre, ABC, Cessna 172, taxiing location, to destination, request code

Where does request code come from? The phrase does not appear in the AIP Phraseology section as far as I can see. If ATC want you to squark an assigned code, they'll assign it without being asked "request code".

[fujii]

Nibbles, no. Read my post number 22. It's 2500 over the top of Riddell.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Capt. Claret,
Bang on. Neither does "request traffic".:rolleyes:

Cynical,
You should have a flight plan in for entry to the Class C anyway, so next time, try the standard taxi call to Para Gnd without saying "request code" and I'd lay odds they still give it to you. :ok:
Everywhere else with the same local procedure does.

Drift;
You put a plan in to fly IFR, they know you're coming so no need for notifying with "XX Centre, ABC IFR taxi". They are expecting your call. Once you've made a taxi call, there's a 10 min sarwatch in place for your departure, so no "XX Centre, XYZ Departure" either.

'Spose some think it sounds cool...

[Philthy]

Sheldon,

I operated for many years out of Penfield. On quite a few occasions, till ATC banned it, I got a clearance from the Sunbury water tanks to Tulla to Essendon to Westgate or somewhere down that way. Hardly ever had any trouble.

First point: I always put in a plan.

Second point: I always made a taxy report to Melbourne Centre on 135.7 with 'expect clearance request airborne'.

Centre would invariably give me a code and 'remain OCTA'. That way, when I get airborne I can immediately be identified. In a surveillance environment you're very unlikely indeed to get a clearance until you are identified, which is why you probably won't get a clearance on the ground.

I would get airborne in the circuit or head out to the west a bit and call Centre for the clearance. They would usually tell me to call the Tower for a clearance having already coordinated the fact that I was taxying. If you were going the other way, it would probably be Departures, but same same.

As I said, hardly ever had a problem.

Philthy

[EC120]

Good luck with that , I hardly ever here VFR getting clearance. Let us know how you go.