Instrument Rating 50 Hours

[al_renko]

Hi All,
I would like to gain a Instrument Rating.Is it possible to fly 50 hours of cross-country flight time hours required on a Zenair 601 or similar light aircraft? Thanks,
Al.

[ChickenHouse]

If I recall correctly, the Zenair 601 was built under AULA, so being an ultralight. As there is not IFR certified UL under EASA rules, the answer would be No.

[India Four Two]

Out of idle curiosity, I did a search for "EASA IR requirements".

After my head had stopped spinning from reading Sir Humphrey's gobbledygook, I see that the requirement is (simplifying ) "50 hours cross-country in aeroplanes". Nothing about the aeroplane being IR certified. So my question is "is an ultra-light an aeroplane?"

As a practical matter, I imagine most PPLs acquire their cross-country hours in non-IFR certified aeroplanes.

I am SO glad I don't fly in EASA land anymore, even after overlooking the staggering cost :D

[AdamFrisch]

FAA has the same requirement of 50hrs. And there a cross country is defined as a trip of 50nm or more, in EASA land all you need to do is land away from home airport. So in that regard it's easier to achieve.

The cross country time can be made in any aircraft you can log time in.

[S-Works]

As long as the Zenair is a 'real' aircraft in EASA terms and not a microlight then yes you can do the 50hrs of cross country time in it.

Basically anything that would count towards currency on the the SEP(Land) rating will count towards the 50hrs.

[BillieBob]

in EASA land all you need to do is land away from home airportNo, you don't. The EASA definition of a cross-country flight is: "a flight between a point of departure and a point of arrival following a pre-planned route, using standard navigation procedures." There is no mention of landing anywhere, nor that the point of departure and point of arrival have to be different.

[worldpilot]

No, you don't. The EASA definition of a cross-country flight is: "a flight between a point of departure and a point of arrival following a pre-planned route, using standard navigation procedures." There is no mention of landing anywhere, nor that the point of departure and point of arrival have to be different. Well, the following quote is also from CAP804:

FCL.210.A PPL(A) — Experience requirements and crediting
(a) Applicants for a PPL(A) shall have completed at least 45 hours of flight instruction in aeroplanes, 5 of which may have been completed in an FSTD, including at least:
(1) 25 hours of dual flight instruction; and
(2) 10 hours of supervised solo flight time, including at least 5 hours of solo cross-country flight time with at least 1 cross-country flight of at least 270 km (150 NM), during which full stop landings at 2 aerodromes different from the aerodrome of departure shall be made.
(b) Specific requirements for applicants holding an LAPL(A). Applicants for a PPL (A) holding an LAPL(A) shall have completed at least 15 hours of flight time on aeroplanes after the issue of the LAPL (A), of which at least 10 shall be flight instruction completed in a training course at an ATO. This training course shall include at least 4 hours of supervised solo flight time, including at least 2 hours of solo cross-country flight time with at least 1 cross-country flight of at least 270 km (150 NM), during which full stop landings at 2 aerodromes different from the aerodrome of departure shall be made.My interpretation of cross country emphasizes landing at a distant airport though.

WP

[S-Works]

Erm, thats the requirements for the issue of a PPL(A). Nothing to do with what constitutes cross country flying.......

[al_renko]

Hi Adam,
Thanks for your response,so basically "chickenhouse is talking chicken****! cheers,
Al.

[BillieBob]

While we're about it, the EASA definition of an aeroplane is "an engine-driven fixed-wing aircraft heavier than air which is supported in flight by the dynamic reaction of the air against its wings." No mention of weight, certification or anything else.

[India Four Two]

BB,

Thanks for the "cross-country" and "aeroplane" definitions.

So 50 hours post-licence, suitably annotated in your logbook as "cross-country" should do the trick, although perhaps it might be wise (and less boring) if you threw in an away-landing or two. ;)

[worldpilot]

Erm, thats the requirements for the issue of a PPL(A). Nothing to do with what constitutes cross country flying.......

Cross-country flight during PPL training and post PPL training is the same.

E.g, a round trip flight (EGNT => EGPK => EGNM => EGNT, 360NM) performed during PPL training as cross-country flight is also logged as such if performed post PPL training.

So 50 hours post-licence, suitably annotated in your logbook as "cross-country" should do the trick, although perhaps it might be wise (and less boring) if you threw in an away-landing or two. ;)When it comes to aviation though, there is no trick.:=

Cross-country flights must be correctly performed and the logbook entries appropriately noted as required. No need for any tricks.

If you depart EGNT and perform a couple of circuit patterns with several landings at EGNT, that is not a cross-country flight and must not be logged as such.

Also if you fly from EGNT to Tees-Side NDB and back to EGNT, that's not a cross-country flight.

WP

[FullWings]

I find it amazing that such a simple question gets so many answers, some contradictory.

I think it a serious indictment of the whole regime that basic information like this is so hard to get hold of. Yes, you can read though the CAP/EASA blurb but after a while all you get is a headache as you are bounced around between regulations. Even instructors/examiners don’t always get it right (whatever right is) and I would venture that there are some posting in this thread.

My (probably erroneous) take on it is that “50hrs cross-country” is what it says, no more, no less. You don’t have to do it in anything other than an aeroplane in which you could log hours for a PPL(A): no need for IFR, twins, jumbo jets or rocket-powered hovercraft...

[BillieBob]

I also find it amazing that people insist on making things more difficult than they need to be. The definition of a cross-country flight is perfectly clear and does not include any requirement to land at another airfield, fly for a minimum distance, wear pink underpants, etc.

Clearly, flying in the circuit (no matter how wide) cannot be counted as cross-country but a flight from EGNT to the Tees-side NDB (or anywhere else) and back certainly can, provided that it is pre-planned and flown using standard navigation procedures. Even if you take off from EGNT and track to the TD and back using the ADF you can count it as cross-country as it is flown using a standard navigation procedure (Ex 18c - Radio Navigation).

[FullWings]

As a glider pilot, I define cross-country flight as anything out of range of the airfield you took off from, should the engine(s) quit... ;)

[al_renko]

hi all,
Thanks for all the responses,my main interest was the use of a zenair 601 or similar light aircraft to complete the cross country 50 Hrs requirement,many thanks,
Al.

[worldpilot]

@al-renko,

Forget the "zenair 601 or similar light aircraft" perspective.

Pre-plan your flight and fly using a GPS device and make sure you maintain the GPS-logs as evidence. That is a cross-country flight.

All your flights flown using a GPS device (radio navigation aid) is a cross-country flght, at least, according to the EASA definition. It is that simple.

Distance and landing information is irrelevant.

WP

[Whopity]

Pre-plan your flight ------- That is a cross-country flight.No need for GPS logs or anything else! Logging requirements are as defined Nationally, in the UK its Article 79; the requirements of 3(b) to qualify for the 50 hours towards the IR pre entry qualification, can simply be written as Navex or X-Cty.