Urban firefighting UK

[heli1]

Is there someone who can give a professional opinion on why the fire service doesn't contract and deploy helicopters with fire buckets for major fires like Eastbourne Pier? Also another one now been burning for several days in a Wiltshire recycling centre. Both difficult to properly access with conventional hoses aiming relatively small amounts off artefact the source. One Super Puma could probably have doused them pretty quickly I would have thought ??

[Art of flight]

Money.

Public funded services are still cutting back, the initiatives that the various fire services have tried in the past either involved 'sharing' such as the police/hems model and really never lasted beyond trial periods, or being frightened off when the true cost of running a specialist fire helicopter unit became clear. Having something the size of a puma on standby at a location near enough to make a difference (for Eastbourne pier at least) would soon be chopped when the next round of cuts were discussed.

[Fat Magpie]

I believe the fire service had a drone on site to provide to aerial view.

[9Aplus]

Recent 9A example "CIOS" fire in Zagreb

Only water used, bucked was near on service, usually deployedvon coast line. No foam - but still useful for cooling off and limitingvfire power....

(picture by Petar Glebov/PIXSELL)

http://www.glas-slavonije.hr/Slike/2014/04/115525.jpg

[heliwanab]

Fire service in highlands&islands regularly use PDG for moorland fires,
Not sure if there's a rolling contract or ad hoc

[Agaricus bisporus]

They'd probably do better to have a bambi bucket in stores and rent a helo to carry it when needed but response times to get a puma down to Eastbourne wouldn't be too good I suspect, plus the company would need a "dropping" exemption and a pilot who knew how to use the thing.

Just ain't practical.

As for buying a dedicated machine - oh, come on!

[OvertHawk]

It's my understanding that the majority of times where PDG or others are used in the highlands they are contracted by the owner of the land rather than the fire service - stand to be corrected on that if i'm wrong though...

[Finnrotor.com]

It's my understanding that the majority of times where PDG or others are used in the highlands they are contracted by the owner of the land rather than the fire service
Correct OvetHawk.

[jayteeto]

Simply summed up by ABBA....... Money Money Money, it's a rich man's world.

And the fire service are seriously skint

[chopper2004]

Helicopter Charter | Helicopter Hire Services | Pennine Helicopters (http://www.penninehelis.com/#!aerial-fire-fighting/c1xsj)

They helped fight fire on Rishworth Moor the other year...

[heli1]

Thanks for comments so far. I was only using the Super Puma as an example...I am sure there are suitable helicopters nearer...e.g. The Met Police EC145s and having some strategically placed Bambi buckets would surely be more cost effective than the huge cost of trying to fight major blazes with multiple crews and fire appliances,,sometimes over a period of days. As to money,our local fire brigade troll around in a hovercraft to rescue holiday makers "stuck"in the mud at low tide so equipment purchases are not necessarily the issue,although I concede running and maintenance costs can be. I imagine too you would need to have crews trained for the task too.

[spinwing]

Mmmmm ...

... The Met Police EC145s and having some strategically placed Bambi buckets would surely be more cost effective ...

I would guess that the operating weight of these 145s would be such that the available payload for water would make them pretty much useless for water bombing ...

Removing all the 'Police' Ops gear would be impractical plus you need an available water pick up point reasonably close by ... for realistic practical purposes not a good idea.

[NZHeliks]

In NZ theres 48 rescue helicopters all with fire buckets, plus a load of other commercial helicopter business that will help (for a fee) with large bush fires that are ongoing / take days to put out. In PPL and CPL fire bucket training is part of the NZ license (not sure if that the same for UK?) ... of course NZ can have a lot of bush fires and can be ripe at mid summer, so theres a call for it.

I did here from my bothering law who's in the RAF that the rescue helicopter service in the UK is going pubic (like in NZ) ... note this may be a rumor! But if thats the case you might find that more fire work maybe part of the change, most rescue services have to push any "Emergency help" they can so the government funding keeps rolling in ... although saying that most struggle and a lot of funding comes from public charity and / or running a commercial business with the rescue helicopter ... thank those that give, without them a good number would fold.

Oh and ... hi ... new here ... just thought I would join in :rolleyes:

[9Aplus]

FF use of helicopter includes more wear & tear plus some
specific skills of crew, flight through the smoke can easy stop
the engines therefore some mods are recommended.
Heavy maintenance after, is good practice too.

Therefore use of some local helicopter & pilot is :rolleyes:

Dedicated or helicopter used for regular sling work
is only vise choice....

[ShyTorque]

Having done some of each, dropping a large quantity of water in an urban situation isn't the same as doing so on open ground. There are extra hazards to both the aircraft and occupants and to those in the vicinity on the ground.

Besides, unless the roof of the building has already gone, the water won't get to the seat of the fire.

If you even mention it to the CAA, they will need up to 28 days to consider each written application....

[rotornut]

Not a helicopter but it worked:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVXACaeucJo

[heli1]

Hmmm....Bristow...189s and S-92s coming on line for SARH......now there's an opportunity?
Thanks for all the comments.

[9Aplus]

Another CL in unconventional mission

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPidwJo7ELQ

[herman the crab]

jayteeto

Simply summed up by ABBA....... Money Money Money, it's a rich man's world.

And the fire service are seriously skint

Or just spent on the wrong things? Like encroaching on other emergency service roles? (eg cliff rescue/water rescue).

HTC

[Gordy]

9APlus
flight through the smoke can easy stop the engines therefore some mods are recommended

What are you smoking....? I have flown in the thickest smoke for years and there are no detrimental effects to our engines:

B359-jTq-24&list=UUK3TneRNogDgW0E070PWxDw

A helicopter would not have saved the pier..... the wood was burning pretty hot and a single drop would do nothing but take away the heat for a minute.

Helicopters really just cool the fire down to allow other methods to be used. Remember a fire needs 3 things, (well 4 but give me a minute), Heat, Oxygen and Fuel to burn---take away one of the three and there is no more wild fire.

Here in the US, the fourth element is "overhead" or "management" as you call it, (we call it hangers on earning a pycheck watching us work...)...with out that there is no fire......

[jayteeto]

Herman, on the button!

They did get involved with a helicopter project, Air Rescue 24. Web site is available through Google. I heard a rumour this week that they may be folding. A good concept, but you would need a BIG helicopter to carry the kit.
Of interest, can anyone spot the big photoshop mistake in their EC145 photograph??? Guess a non aviation person did it.

[Peter-RB]

Why not just have a "Rescue Service" that way many areas covered by one service cost...! simples........... well to me anyway!

Reasons are Police heli seems to be used to find lost souls and people who have not returned to a schedule, .

Air Ambulance all fed by subscriptions also seem to turn out to seemingly simple cases that Road Going Ambulance could achieve, just read the papers and watch TV local news to see what I mean

In Scotland the Military supply big rigs to find people who set out in a gale and are lost, or fall down a Ice covered Mountain.

Putting rescue IE Fire and Ambulance together, would mean just one operating base in strategic areas, a bad example is here in the North West of England, a new fire HQ control center( in Warrington) cost £35m has done away with many others, however the rank of individuals logic and knowledge of areas seems to be played by people who have not thought through their roles, just recently this "New Center" Tasked a Fire engine and crew to travel from Carlisle (North Cumbria) to a Country area (Rivington) between Chorley and Bolton,..... a round trip approaching 250 miles without any loiter time or mileage, but if we had combined Large town centers with "A Rescue Service" attached things like this bad example would or should not happen .

Time to think with joined up thoughts and not with the ideas put up by mega highly paid chiefs when the Indians are not consulted.

[9Aplus]

Dear Gordy you may be that Lucky B....d :E
What are you smoking....? I have flown in the thickest smoke for years and there are no detrimental effects to our engines
but you know, firefighting helicopters sometimes have system called continuous ignition, that adds one or more spark plug(s) into the combustion chamber of their turbo-shaft engines to provide continuous spark when there is a chance of sudden flame out, caused by low oxygen or just plain heat surge....

[Gordy]

but you know, firefighting helicopters sometimes have system called continuous ignition,

It is called "Auto Re-light", and I have it, but never used it. We rarely fly in the heavy smoke, and I do not know anyone who does. Obviously we fly in light smoke but there is plenty of oxygen to breathe, therefore enough for the engine.

[Mast Bumper]

Gordy, it all depends on engine type. And it's not really the smoke that'll cause a flame-out, it's a lack of oxygen. In the S-64 we avoid "the shimmer" like the plague - several flame outs have happened over the years by pilots that flew through the areas of super-heated air that usually also are pockets of air with reduced O2 concentration.

[Gordy]

Gordy, it all depends on engine type.

I'll give you that---you guys are sucking a lot more O2 than me in an L4 or Huey........

[Brilliant Stuff]

From what I have ben told when the recycling centre in Hertfordshire went up in smoke for the second time and burned for days is that it's simply running to hot with to much fuel feeding the fire and since on top of that it wasn't spreading they were quite happy for it to let it burn itself out.

I don't know anything about the wiltshire one.

The MET only do police ops. They are not even equipped for CASEVACs. Also their cabs are very heavy due to all the kit onboard.

You would be better to charter a helicopter with a bucket for the few times you need it...IMHO.

As for eastbourne didn't they have a boat on the water next to it pumping a fountain of sea water over the fire?