Gliding stories [Archive]

longer ron

22nd Jul 2014, 06:44

Thanks for the replies gents - I cannot post much at the mo because last weekends lightning strike has taken out my weekday broadband LOL - and until bt/sky fix the local area cables/box - I am screwed :)

occasional circuit in a Ka4

Ahhhh - Ka4 - I did a little Ka4 flying at a certain pembrokeshire airfield (RAF Brandy) but mostly drove the winch as they were trying to set up a GC there,it was an old bus winch and had to be driven in reverse everywhere (because of the winch conversion) but otherwise nice to drive with (i believe) a 9 litre diesel engine...we used to get some interesting wind shear off the cliffs there and whilst almost full power might be required for the initial launch - they sometimes were waving off speed by 200' with the drum stopped (cue some gentle and accidental 'drum slip' :))

I'd arrived to fly just after it went tits up and people were asking if the pilot was unhurt. Seeing the look on my face someone said, 'Well, he is at the moment!'

LOL I have heard that sort of comment before - but sorry to hear about your glider !

longer ron

22nd Jul 2014, 06:50

500 miles and 13 hrs later we arrived back at Lasham. He owes me a few beers for that one.

I'll say he does :)
I took a friends trailer up to near cranfield where he had landed his lovely open cirrus on a private strip - only expecting to tow the trailer on the outbound leg - however - when I arrived he says ''its my birthday - and I have been to the pub for a coupla beers'' - so muggins had to tow the feckin thing home as well - almost 20 years later he still owes me a beer for that :)

astir 8

22nd Jul 2014, 09:22

I landed out in a stubble field one day and rolled to a standstill near to the farmer who was trying to fix his irrigation pump at the field edge.

So I walked over to him and said "Do you want a hand with that?"

Sometimes it's handy being an agricultural engineer.

He was well pleased. We were pretty good mates by the time the trailer arrived.

Another time a few years back, I landed out in a nice bare set-aside field just behind a farm. Wandered into the farmyard and there was farmer fixing his baler.

"Sorry, but I've just had to land my glider in your field" Be humble.

"Which field" he asked, sounding quite alarmed

"That bit of set aside out the back"

"Oh that's OK then" with considerable relief.

I still wonder, did he have a marijuana crop or something in another field?

But he was pleased to have a hand with his baler as well!

GGR155

22nd Jul 2014, 09:40

Sure not the first one to arrive to collect a landed out glider with an already very full trailor.:D

Shaggy Sheep Driver

22nd Jul 2014, 09:54

I did hear about a competition in France where quite a few gliders landed out a few miles from home in the same largish field. The tug arrived to retreive them one by one back to base. Front of the queue was a large German chap in a very heavy glass glider. The tuggie looked at the glider, the pilot, and the field length, and shook his head. "Non".

The German insisted, so he was hooked onto the tow rope and they set off, the tug at full chat, down the field. When about 20 metres from the hedge the Tuggie knew for sure that the glider wasn't going to get off the ground in time so he released the tow, hopped over the hedge, flew a tight circuit, and landed back. Meanwhile the heavy glider ploughed into the hedge in a shower of disintegrating fibre glass.

Tuggie taxied up the waiting line of gliders.

"And 'oo ees next?".

Exascot

22nd Jul 2014, 10:32

They are pain in the butt. Bunch of amateurs who don't show up on radar, difficult to see and have very little control over their flight path. My closest airmiss ever (6 ft) was with a glider I was twin turbine. The pompous little :mad: then had the audacity to seek me out and accuse me of trying to kill him. Go and fly over tbe Sahara - plenty of thermals there.

astir 8

22nd Jul 2014, 13:28

Dear Mr Exascot

would you care to provide more details of the incident? Then we can possibly decide for ourselves which of the two of you was the :mad:

cumulusrider

22nd Jul 2014, 13:34

Typical reply from a minority of power pilots who are so wrapped up in their fancy glass cockpits and chattering on the radio they dont actually look out.
The 2 near misses I have had in 30 yrs of gliding have been with power pilots who had no idea i was there before or after.

Above The Clouds

22nd Jul 2014, 14:26

Playing devils advocate.

I would say a glider, the majority painted white with no strobe lights and of a very slim profile are actually quite difficult to spot until very close.

snapper1

22nd Jul 2014, 14:38

I was going to disagree with you but then noticed that Mr Exocet has to get within six feet to see one.

CISTRS

22nd Jul 2014, 16:46

During a brief period of unemployment from a proper job, I became a PROFESSIONAL WINCH DRIVER at a renowned gliding club on top of a Cotswold. Not too far from Stroud.
I became pretty good at launching all types of gliders, reading the curve in the cable.
To be a good winch driver, you need to take responsibility for the integrity of the cables, and to conduct a thorough DI at the start of the day, replacing splices as necessary. If conditions were good, you needed a thick skin to cope with the members demands to get on with it....

This is what happens when the members are too precious to drive their own winch.

Benjybh

22nd Jul 2014, 21:23

I became a PROFESSIONAL WINCH DRIVER at a renowned gliding club on top of a Cotswold. Not too far from Stroud.

Current PROFESSIONAL WINCH DRIVER checking in here, at another renowned gliding club somewhere a bit further south-east...

Exascot

23rd Jul 2014, 06:13

Dear Mr Exascot

would you care to provide more details of the incident? Then we can possibly decide for ourselves which of the two of you was the

Sure, he was in a danger zone. I was para dropping. Say no more.

longer ron

23rd Jul 2014, 19:47

Because of my Air Cadet background and a disagreement with the RAFGSA 'god of gliding' in the early 70's - when I went back to gliding in the 80's I still had no idea about thermalling LOL
I ended up doing some gliding in southern Africa - boy did they have a good laugh at my 300+ launches and 25hrs TT :)
Anyway they gave up trying to teach me to thermal so I carried on 'bashing the circuit in our Swallow and then Skylark 3b...and of course one day - it just 'clicked' and I spent the next hour or so turning left - I eventually got bored with that and straightened up - closely followed by the strongest feeling of me going to fall out of the right hand side of the cockpit LOL !
I had to sit there and tell myself not to be so stupid because I was strapped in and the aircraft was still in one piece !
I suppose it was some sort of 'Leans' and I never experienced it again but it would probably have been more worrying for somebody with a non aviation background !

phiggsbroadband

23rd Jul 2014, 20:14

Quote.... 'it just 'clicked' and I spent the next hour or so turning left'....

Well at say +400ft/min that would be a height gain of 24,000ft.... Sure you were not just running out of Oxygen???

btw, I get giddy just riding my bike around in circles on the back lawn....

.

longer ron

23rd Jul 2014, 20:25

Quote.... 'it just 'clicked' and I spent the next hour or so turning left'...

Cannot get the 'quote facility' to work :)

The turning left was not always thermalling upwards you understand - it took me a while to form a rough mental picture of a 'thermal' :)

thing

23rd Jul 2014, 21:37

The turning left was not always thermalling upwards you understand

You sound like a man after my own heart; I must be the only glider pilot that can thermal downwards. It's an art I tell you. The others are jealous.

Gertrude the Wombat

23rd Jul 2014, 22:18

I must be the only glider pilot that can thermal downwards
One was telling me recently of a day when there was lift everywhere, and he eventually got back on the ground only by finding a downdraft and spiralling downwards in it. To the great confusion of those who followed him, thinking he'd found a thermal.

(Unless of course this is simply a regular tall story told by gliding folk to non-gliding folk.)

FullWings

23rd Jul 2014, 22:36

One that always creases me up was long ago when we had a club Ka6E. Some unfortunate had landed it out, no problem, and a posse of club members had gone off to retrieve him. On getting back to the club, they drove past the bar and stopped on the apron. One of the drinkers came out and asked where the glider was? “Ha Ha Ha” went the pilot, "very funny, get back to the bar." “No, where is it?” enquired the holder of the pint, pointing to the open back door of the trailer.

Sure enough, of the fuselage there was no sign! Wings still bolted in but fus & dolly not present. Oh ****. The club drive was very steep and the glider had (luckily, considering the drive back from the field) chosen that moment to break free of the trailer and roll back down the hill. We found it on its side at the bottom of the slope, miraculously undamaged without even a scratch on the canopy...

longer ron

23rd Jul 2014, 22:38

Lots of little laughs to be had in a glider GTW...like the time I was getting a little low and then saw a glass glider bank steeply into a turn - so beetle off to join him - thinking he had found lift - but as I got near he 'popped' his engine out of the top of his fuselage and sailed orf into the distance - leaving me scratching around and cursing gliders with retractable engines LOL

Fitter2

24th Jul 2014, 08:40

Full wings - not the only occurrence. A long time ago a distinguished doctor (who later got a student to take his glider all the way to Nepal to soar the Himalayas, couldn't get permission to fly so the student had to drive it all the way back, but that's another story) borrowed the Surrey Gliding Club brand new glider for the National Championships. Having done a field landing in East Anglia, returning round the North Circular they were at a set of traffic lights when a boy racer revved his engine beside them. Determined to be competitive, B******g J****s took off smartly on the amber and won the grid start. A mile or so down the road they were flagged down and informed 'something fell off the back of your trailer'. Inspection revealed an open door and missing fuselage. Returning to the junction, no sign of the fuselage, but a search of the area found it rolled down a side alley by some well meaning passer by. There were only a few paint scratches, and the crew were sworn to secrecy, but somehow the story was revealed and substantial beer fines paid.

Wander00

24th Jul 2014, 09:19

Many, many years ago on a Cranwell gliding camp at Weston Super Mare, went out on a retrieve in the Mendips. Found the glider in a field that even our tug pilot refused to tug it out of, so set off with glider in the trailer. Stopped at a pub - 4 of us in the old blue fabric flying suits. "Aah", said the blonde behind the bar, "You are glider pilots, I can tell from your flying suits and the glider trailer outside". "No" came the flash reply from a member of a more senior entry than mine. "This is the uniform of the stud for dachshund racehorses, and that is a dachshund horse trailer". She is probably still wondering..............

papa_sierra

24th Jul 2014, 11:12

A long time since I flew a K4, but I do seem to remember that the cable release was a lever and the airbrakes were activated by a cable with knob on the end. The knob also had another knob on the end that day. !!!

Cusco

24th Jul 2014, 14:02

A coupla years ago I was just doing the power checks prior to a much anticipated days' flying from our own strip, when a glider suddenly landed ahead of me:

Than another, then another, then a fourth, with a fifth in the crops nearby.

They'd all been competing in a competition at a well known E Anglian glider field 20 miles away when they all suddenly 'ran out of lift'

Completely b*ggered my day, that did.

Never found out why they didn't chose a closed but flyable RAF base 5 miles away with a massive concrete runway......

snapper1

24th Jul 2014, 16:21

On a cross-country flight and over North Yorkshire, ran out of lift and ideas. Chose to land at the ex RAF Melbourne airfield and whilst flying a conventional circuit remembered that it was now a drag racing strip. The only bit of runway I could have used had 'stuff' all over it which turned out to be mostly traffic cones. So landed to the side on an area of grass that had recently been cut - no problems. Along comes a chap in a 4X4 pick-up who had a face like thunder telling me I was the seventh glider to land that afternoon and he was p****d off with us all. He said that they had all moved his traffic cones to allow a tug to land and take off with the retrieves. 'And, he thundered, none of them put the bl**dy cones back'!!! I explained that I wouldn't need to move the cones as I'd got someone coming with a trailer to take my glider away.

mary meagher

24th Jul 2014, 19:01

Evening all! Today was forecast by our Club Guru to be a Day of Days, so what are you doing reading about it when you could be doing it?

Croqueteer

24th Jul 2014, 20:28

:)Gliding on the gravel plain east of Sharjah in the mid 60s, we could only launch to about 450ft due to lack of winch cable. We would wait for the approach of a dust devil and launch our Ka8 into it. They were visible to about 4000ft, but then continued up to 10-11000 ft. Soaring round the edge of the funnel looking down the hole in the centre gave me the only feeling of vertigo I've experienced flying. Good fun followed by suitably fortified deep sleep in the open back of a 3-tonner.

Fitter2

24th Jul 2014, 22:44

I am not soaring now because in our last move I lost my wife's support to pursue my passion. I would say you are better off!

One of my current syndicate partners used to reply to enquiries regarding whether his wife objected to how much time he spent gliding 'My first wife did!'

Piper.Classique

25th Jul 2014, 06:19

Evening all! Today was forecast by our Club Guru to be a Day of Days, so what are you doing reading about it when you could be doing it?

Well, in my case strapped and locked into the tug. It was good, but not exceptional, here in the middle of France. Anyone do anything good in UK?

Shaggy Sheep Driver

25th Jul 2014, 09:11

One of my current syndicate partners used to reply to enquiries regarding whether his wife objected to how much time he spent gliding 'My first wife did!'

Something I noticed during my brief flirtation with gliding was that most if not all of the club regulars were divorced, such were the time commitments of the hobby. Those that had re-married had done so with a partner also into gliding!

Wander00

25th Jul 2014, 09:27

C - what is the registration of your Cub - if I see you anywhere I will come and say "Bonjour"

dubbleyew eight

25th Jul 2014, 10:35

the only time I have been beaten over the head with a rolled up newspaper was an experience flight in a Blanic glider.
I was flying in turbulent air. first ever flight in a glider.
whack
vuk me is you arse asleep, how could you fly zru a thermal like zat and not vuking turn.
whack
vuk me dead you vukwit, why can't you feel ze zermals.
whack
oh vuk me you didn't even feel sat wun. you dead head, you arse asleep.
whack
oh vuk give me ze controls ziss is too much to bear. look ziss is the vay ve fly zee glider.

I was actually trying to track back over the airfield we took off from....

Steve Gronan is dead now but I'll never forget his air experience flight.
thank heavens I fly powered these days.:E:}

longer ron

26th Jul 2014, 07:50

Ah yes turbulent air :)
Many years ago flying (as near to the black box as poss :)) in the company Skoda we hit a bad 'air pocket' whilst flying in some really rough weather - it felt like the aircraft just fell out of the sky for a second or two (severe down gust/draught) - lots of worried pax and intakes of breath - except for Rog and myself (2 glider pilots) - we were giggling :)

When I was working in zimbabwe we knocked off at 1pm in the summer and I used to drive over to the GC to make use of some of that horrible bumpy weather :)

longer ron

26th Jul 2014, 08:09

One of my more er 'interesting' barograph traces LOL,glider pilots will recognise the 'scratching' escape from the lowest point (as opposed to the very steep normal thermal climb) - took some very gentle and accurate flying in an extremely weak thermal - got me sweating - thats for sure :)
During one of my 'Cathedral city' 500k attempts !

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv316/volvosmoker/libelle8086.jpg

thing

26th Jul 2014, 09:03

Crikey, couple of close calls there!

longer ron

26th Jul 2014, 09:12

Yeah it was a dodgy day :) - according to my old log book it was 4.35hr and ended up as just the first leg of the planned route and landed back at base !
The lowest point was 'somewhere near andover' :)

Piper.Classique

26th Jul 2014, 20:37

Hi, Wander00, it is G-BPUL. Tugging today, as the Rallye is poorly.

ShyTorque

26th Jul 2014, 22:54

I recently heard about someone who turned up at a farmer's field with a trailer to retrieve a glider and on opening it up found it already filled with a nice three piece suite.

I've told this story before....one of the closest near accidents I was involved with was when a glider flew right over my aircraft from behind and touched down just in front of me as my student and I were taking off from an RAF airfield.

Had my student been solo I don't think he would have been able to avoid the glider in the circumstances and at his level of experience.

1.3VStall

26th Jul 2014, 22:57

Exascot,

I have only just happened upon this thread:

Bunch of amateurs who don't show up on radar, difficult to see and have very little control over their flight path

A typical uninformed, unprofessional post from an ex-RAF truckie - still smarting over being chopped from fast jet training are you? Why would you need to "show up on radar" in the open FIR? Difficult to see? Yes, but I've been flying gliders (and powered) for over 40 years and the see and be seen principle of VMC flying is still serving me well. And I have full control of my flightpath at all times.

In your subsequent post you state that you were paradropping in a danger zone - you did, of course, assure the airspace was clear for dropping, didn't you? A danger area is not a prohibited area!

ShyTorque

26th Jul 2014, 23:19

A danger area may be a prohibited area, too, depending on the bye laws appertaining. Check the AIP!

longer ron

27th Jul 2014, 09:53

I recently heard about someone who turned up at a farmer's field with a trailer to retrieve a glider and on opening it up found it already filled with a nice three piece suite.

LOL - one of those 'Oh Bu66er' moments

I would imagine there are many 'trailer tales' around :)

Through luck :E or skill :hmm: - I did not land out that often - although I did a fair few retrieves for other people :)
I always used to fight hard to get home - one good piece of advice I was given by an experienced x country pilot was - 'never give up' (within safety considerations natch).

One trailer we did end up with was a huge affair with massive tractor wheels/tyres and which was a bitch to tow (good job syndicate partner had a 5hitroen BX :))
This trailer contained a Slingsby T53 (YS53) which we bought without a test flight off an oldish chap (what could possibly go wrong :))
But actually she was a really nice glider to fly - with a huge canopy and proper man sized stick :ok:

longer ron

27th Jul 2014, 10:17

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv316/volvosmoker/gliderwinch.jpg

The top pic is a Copeland and Hatcher winch - with the operator standing in line with the cable/rollers etc - OOER ! :eek:

The lower pic is a Chrysler car conversion - which looks much safer LOL

Both pics from 'Soaring Flight' by Terence Horsley

Wander00

27th Jul 2014, 10:21

PC - thanks. Will watch out for you. regards, W

astir 8

29th Jul 2014, 06:35

Dear Mr Exascot

Interestingly I did most of my gliding from an airfield shared with a parachuting organisation within a danger area. We co-existed reasonably successfully, with the paras and their aircraft operating upwind of the airfield and us downwind.

One day however one of their (presumably) "professional" twin turbine pilots decided for unknown reasons (or mistakenly) to descend through cloud on the downwind side and nearly took me out as he popped out of the cloud

A quiet word was had with DZ control and it didn't happen again. But it doesn't make me brand all meat bombers as ******* amateurs or wish them all to the Sahara.

Since I didn't have direct words with the pilot I assume that it wasn't you though!

:ok:

mary meagher

29th Jul 2014, 20:10

He grumbles that they are "a bunch of amateurs who don't show up on radar, are difficult to see, and have very little control over their flight path!"

All quite true. Item one; can you imagine the enroute controller who has to deal with a gaggle of fifteen or twenty returns on his radar screen all going around in circles at different levels of the same thermal?

Yes, difficult to see, especially if you have so much equipment stacked up in front of your face there is not a lot of window left for you to see out of your fast jet transport, and so are dependent on the poor overworked enroute controller to keep your path clear of intruders....

And as for very little control over their flight path? Let me assure the grumpy expat Scot ex meatbomber, that the flight path of the glider will follow the energy as is necessary to gain height and to complete the flight as planned.

If he is actually flying now in Greece and Botswana, I very much doubt if he is dodging a lot of glider traffic in these exotic locations.

ShyTorque

29th Jul 2014, 21:36

Presumably you are referring to Class G airspace? Do you really believe that any pilot would depend on an "en route controller" in that type of airspace?

Fantome

29th Jul 2014, 22:49

what Mary said . . . . add to which .. . . . the glider pilot
can hear you coming most often before you have an inkling
there is a powerless one somewhere close by

RAF 32 Sqn, The Queens Flight, 10 Sqn, Monarch Airlines.

these are respectable credentials .. .
if accompanied by a little humility as opposed to that well known syndrome
sometimes engendered by the 'privileged' and rigorous

indoctrination her maj can afford

orionsbelt

30th Jul 2014, 17:34

A few years back out of EGSR in a Robin Hr200 doing PFLs on to the small strip on Lavenham disused. Good student and very thermic day with a massive towering Cu above us, dropped 10 flap and 70 mph and up we went like the preverbal luv sick angel, student was good with balanced left turn staying the thermal. Then we noticed we were not alone, the blokes from Rattlesden were in on the act first one then two glass fibre rockets and many more all following us around in the thermal. Point was we were making about 500 / 700 fpm roc but these blokes must have been doing double that, and one went by us giving a wave as he went !!!!!!!!!! We bugged out at FL55 but the others just kept going up to the TMA base.

***

thing

30th Jul 2014, 18:33

I've gone down a cloud street in a PA28 with about 1700 rpm on (carb heat obviously), keeping altitude with 100 kts on the clock. Quite amusing.

mary meagher

30th Jul 2014, 19:11

Grand day, grand flight, you did very very well to make such good use of conditions and companions in flight!

The one who went by you giving a wave was doing the proper acknowlegement that you have been seen and appreciated! I'm sure he thought you were really a glider pilot, though only flying a Robin; the powerful Robin is often in use as a glider tug, and the tug pilot needs to understand how to find lift in order to give best launches.

But why have you waited all these years to fly a real glider? doesn't need a lot of money, a half share in a decent 40 to one club class competition glider could cost as little as £6 or £7 G. Only takes 15 minutes to rig or derig, kept in its roadworthy trailer, could stay in your drive, or at low cost at the gliding club; think of the hangar charges you save!

And best of all, you have mates to share your gliding stories with. I am still flying at 81, several older than me are still tooling around the sky. We don't get bored, every day is a different challenge.

fyrefli

30th Jul 2014, 22:29

Thermalling (a paraglider) with sailplanes is fun. We go round the inside, they go round the outside, we wave whilst outclimbing them :)

longer ron

31st Jul 2014, 07:51

A few years back out of EGSR in a Robin Hr200 doing PFLs on to the small strip on Lavenham disused. Good student and very thermic day with a massive towering Cu above us, dropped 10 flap and 70 mph and up we went like the preverbal luv sick angel

Many years ago at a very flat norfolk airfield.... most of my gliding experience up to that point had been off the winch,but I had a couple of dual aerotows and was cleared for solo (in a K13)....anyway in those days this club used Condors for towing - not overblessed with power LOL
So I am sitting waiting for launch when the tuggie saunters over and asks 'hows your thermalling on tow? ' - well I'll give it a go says I :)
The most frightening thing was that we had to use the short rwy which had a big pile of torn up rwy just off the end of it LOL - so we cleared that by at least 10 feet - phew ! and the thermalling on tow went really well and probably doubled the Condor climb rate :)
So I returned to my own club where they were surprised to find out I had gone solo aerotow and had done a bronze leg - it would have taken me weeks there probably !
I had not gone to norfolk with the intention of flying - I was just keeping my gf company whilst she was doing an SLMGPPL course !

longer ron

31st Jul 2014, 08:12

Thermalling (a paraglider) with sailplanes is fun. We go round the inside, they go round the outside, we wave whilst outclimbing them

Whilst I can see the initial climb rate being better with a paraglider - at Combe Gibbet near Hungerford we always seemed to be higher than the hang gliders and paragliders whilst local flying :)

Shaggy Sheep Driver

31st Jul 2014, 08:30

The first 'aeroplane' I flew was T21 (known as 'The Barge'). It could out-thermal anything on the filed, being slow and able to centre in the thermal (like a paraglider!).

But when it topped out (a lot lower than the proper gliders!) its angle of glide precluded it going anywhere!

mary meagher

31st Jul 2014, 09:40

O yes, Longer Ron, you wouldn't be thinking of Tibenham, Norfolk, perchance?

I flew there for their first EVER regional competition. The organisation was a bit nervous, wanted to tick all the boxes the first Briefing, and by the time we were all lined up and ready to launch, alas, the sea breeze had kicked in, and the fluffy cu was now some distance away to the west.

I had a bright idea and passed it on to the Director; there is no reason you couldn't let us be towed up to say 4,000 instead of the usual 2,000.....for reasons of safety, of course, the director can be quite creative.

So the first glider took off, and like penguins on a cliff, we all peered up to see what happened to the bold pilot. Ten minutes passed.

And he called down by radio the following message:

"There's four knots of wave up here!"

Wave? over Norfolk? where the hell were the mountains kicking off wave over Norfolk? ours not to wonder why, we all buckled in and took off, I was behind the Condor so it took quite a while to get up there....and we all vanished on task. Except for one pilot who when he reaslised the cumulus had moved inshore, went shopping; when he returned and found us all departed, he jumped in without making enquiries, and thought he was on to a good thing when the tuggie neglected to wave him off at 2,000 - so he was quite smug about getting away from a 3,000 tow.

O yes, one more thing. Don't worry about the pile of rocks at the end of the short runway, what counts is the airspeed of the tug, not the obstacle clearance! I asked Brian Spreckley once, long ago, what should I do if I think the tug isn't going to clear the hedge?

He answered "wait until it hits the hedge, and then pull off.'

Of course it never did. The only time I thought the tug was not going to clear an obstacle I dumped the glider....

longer ron

31st Jul 2014, 10:28

Spot on Mary
And the 'Sheriff of Nottingham' was still there :)
Actually - Alf Warminger (sheriff of norwich) - lovely guy

Main Runway

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv316/volvosmoker/img031_zpsb6d2d9c5.jpg

My scanner keeps thinking this pic is B+ W LOL

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv316/volvosmoker/img032_zpsda4c37c2.jpg

Don't worry about the pile of rocks at the end of the short runway, what counts is the airspeed of the tug, not the obstacle clearance! I asked Brian Spreckley once, long ago, what should I do if I think the tug isn't going to clear the hedge?

That pile would have long gone :) - it was only worrying because with only 2 aerotows under my belt - it was just one more thing to consider - but the tuggie was doing it right and keeping the airspeed up :)

treadigraph

31st Jul 2014, 10:46

There was a good article in Pilot several decades ago about tugging with a Condor from Tibenham... wonder if I could lay me mits on it...?

FullWings

31st Jul 2014, 11:00

Ahhh, the “Condor moment”.

Plenty of time to savour it...

orionsbelt

31st Jul 2014, 14:19

Hi Mary
Well yes T21 at RAF Cosford and another machine at RAF Wattersham in 67/8
but was also doing PPL at that time. However my first love was Austers followed by Tigre Moths and as I wanted to be a Lightning driver thats the route I tried for but never achieved (apart from a T5 ride in 68). Remember some good days on the field and also some very good beer ups in the evenings. Have looked at the 3 North Essex clubs and there 1/5 day offers,
but think that will be one of my '''roundtoits'''.
Happy Landings
***

longer ron

5th Aug 2014, 10:10

There was a good article in Pilot several decades ago about tugging with a Condor from Tibenham... wonder if I could lay me mits on it...?

That would be interesting if you could find it .....

Obviously the tuggies would have liked a little more ooomph and istr that the wingtip on at least 1 condor had ' half scale Pawnee ' written on it :)

I never liked being towed by a low power tug - but did enjoy being towed by a Large engined Pawnee when flying a lightweight single seater - twas almost like a winch launch lol and impossible to get a 'bow' in the towrope !

Arclite01

5th Aug 2014, 13:22

Actually you'd be surprised how often we connect with wave over East Anglia. Not strong but consistent 2 - 3 Kts and quite smooth. I went to 8500' the other day and dropped out as it was getting dark.

Sometimes it's not actually wave I think but a strong but slow moving sea breeze front that eventually pushes through and leaves you behind - thinking 'where did the wave go.... ??'

Arc

T21

6th Aug 2014, 00:38

Many, many years ago in Sailplane and Gliding magazine there was a picture of a high powered tug towing two gliders. Alongside the picture was another (made up) of two Condors towing one glider. Wish I had saved it.

RatherBeFlying

6th Aug 2014, 03:22

At this summer's Cowley [What] Wave Camp, there was quite a bit of discussion about 180 degree thermals where we climb like mad for 180 degrees, then hang on for another 180 degrees until we connect again.

On the last day it looked like we were in the crosshairs of an approaching thunderstorm; so threw the gliders in their trailers -- and drove into a hailstorm to the north.

Now opening hail claim with auto insurer:\

Gliders and trailers OK:ok:

mary meagher

7th Aug 2014, 07:08

A few years back (yes this is another gliding story!) I was climbing in a nice thermal near Boscomb Down Empire Test Pilot School, and inadvertently invaded their airspace. It does get your attention when a couple of fast military jets appear on either side of the glider! They quite enjoyed my reaction, getting the chance to chase an intruder made their day! I only wish I had been switched on enough to snap a photo with my turning point camera.
Didn't get round the 300k attempt that day, but did get back to Booker without landing out.

one post only!

7th Aug 2014, 20:21

Mary, I am glad you deleted the post blaming sexism for the removal of your story from R&N. In fairness it was probably removed as it did not contribute to the thread.

I have it be honest and say I am glad it was removed as it doesn't paint the gliding community in a great light, being intercepted after busting airspace isn't really a good wheeze and a giggle.

The airspace is there for a reason.

India Four Two

8th Aug 2014, 08:33

RBF,

Be fair, the Cowley Wave Camp is in the Fall - the week before (Canadian)Thanksgiving. I've always known the camp you attended as the Cowley Summer Camp.

Having said that, I did my Diamond altitude climb on a blue wave day in July. Thermaling over the Porcupine Hills and reached 13,000' when things suddenly went very smooth! Climbed to 16,000' in the secondary and then penetrated west towards the primary. Ran into horrendous sink and turned and ran back to the Porcupines and started again!

This time I climbed to 18,000' in the secondary, which enabled me to fly upwind to the primary, which I contacted at about 12,000' and then went up to FL240.

I've also had the Cowley hail experience. I was driving from Pincher Station back to the field when I drove into a hail storm of such intensity that I thought the windshield was going to break. Had to stop due to zero visibility. Luckily, at the field, everyone had de-rigged before the storm hit.

ChrisJ800

8th Aug 2014, 10:02

I had a nice Easter in Aboyne flying the club Vega in wave and thermals but the last flight I landed back into a snow blizzard that was just dumping on the strip. Everyone was huddled in the caravan and no one was prepared to come and help me shift the glider off the runway. Softies!

FrustratedFormerFlie

8th Aug 2014, 14:54

Aboyne. Autumn wave. Tops out of available climb and dumps brakes for quick return to let someone else play (I know. Why?). Canopy mists and freezes. Cue BIG slowdown and sideslip peeking through the DV panel for only visible horizon. Note to self....

longer ron

15th Aug 2014, 17:42

Thanks for the stories so far Lady and Gents :)

What got us interested in gliding ?? :)

One of the stories that got me hooked on gliding was the 1953 Derek Piggot T21 height record - 'The Ascent of Red 31' - this is an excerpt from 'The Powerless Ones' by Michael Cummings...

Excitement? Red 31 was being thrown about the sky. She was
being coated with ice. It was bitterly cold in the open cockpit.
She was still climbing. Visibility was nil ahead and to the rear;
only the wing-tips were just in view. The cloud hung round
them like fog beside a river. Yet the only feeling Derek Piggott
transferred to the A.T.C. cadet was one of excitement. Why?
The answer was to be found in the gliding record books. He knew
that Old Red-Nose was coming pretty close to establishing a new
gliding record if there was any more lift to be had from the
towering bank of cloud that still engulfed them. From this
prospect, Piggott drew the strength and the will to carry on.
At 11,000 ft. there was a glimmer of a smile on his face as he
asked the cadet: "Have you got any idea how the gain-of-height
record stands for two-seaters at present?"
Whatley, who knew only that he was bitterly cold and
miserable with nothing to see and nothing to do, mumbled: "I
haven't a clue, Sir."
Unlike the boy, though, Piggott had a fair inkling that Red 31
was already close to the altitude achieved by Austin and Bedford
the previous year when they set up a new British gain-of-height
record. The gain-of-height is the difference between the height
actually reached and the height above sea level from which the
glider was launched; for example, a glider winched up from
Camphill and reaching an altitude of 6,300 ft. would have made a
gain-of-height of 6,300 ft. minus the height of the [/URL]

P165 onwards

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lakesgc.co.uk%2Fmainwebpages%2FeBook%25 20Library%2FBatch%25202%2FThe%2520Powerless%2520Ones%2520Gli ding%2520in%2520Peace%2520and%2520War.pdf&ei=90XuU8LBK8ve7AbDyoG4Cw&usg=AFQjCNHzeuMC0qy2iTV1Wyc4qfJTvdcS_w&sig2=YkIB5X3d513dg1kwO4teCQ

longer ron

15th Aug 2014, 18:43

Perhaps of interest - the 'Austin and Bedford' gliding record was actually R. Austin and A. W.
Bedford, 12,750 feet

A W Bedford was 'Bill' Bedford - he was an accomplished glider pilot and holder of at least 2 records...later of course better known for his 'Unter and 'Arrier flying :)

snapper1

16th Aug 2014, 13:51

Terrific story, Ron. Thanks for posting the link to the book. I must try to get hold of a copy.

Camphill is my club so I'm going to send the link to the editor of Camphill News, our in-house magazine - I think he might enjoy the story, although he was probably around at the time of the 1953 Nationals and may know it already.

It reminded me of a tale told by one of our top pilots who flew into a promising Cu only for it to develop into a CuNim once he was in it. He wrote-up the story for Sailplane and Gliding magazine who printed it - anonymously, of course. Whilst in the cloud he was thrown around so violently that, although he knew what heading he needed to get out, he couldn't do anything about it. He topped out above 21,000 ft. - and he had left his oxygen gear in his trailer!!! His maximum recorded vertical speed was in excess of 34 knots. He had come out into bright sunshine and landed back at his departure field only minutes later in a deluge.

Arclite01

18th Aug 2014, 15:01

Longer Ron

Enjoyed the Derek Piggott story - felt that I was in the cockpit with them !!

Arc

longer ron

19th Aug 2014, 03:58

I never flew with DP but he seemed to be a genuinely nice guy - saw him in action with students at Splasham a couple of times and was very impressed (I was never based there but visited many times over the years ).

treadigraph

19th Aug 2014, 06:25

Terrific story, Ron. Thanks for posting the link to the book. I must try to get hold of a copy

A few second hand copies available via a well known South American themed internet shop! Got one coming in the post...

I will try and get in the loft and see if I can find that Condor article, I'm sure I still have it.

Arclite01

19th Aug 2014, 07:59

LR

He signed me a copy of his book 'Delta Papa' - which is a terrific read.

I do think he's a nice bloke - but very driven, an unusual combination.

Arc

overvne

22nd Aug 2014, 21:11

This is moreof a tug pilot story.

I did aseason flying the Condors at Tibenham. ( treadigraph. A FEW decades ago, thanksfor reminding me, I don’t feel that old).

On the sideof the short runway there was a pile of pig s**t, many yards long and several feet thick that had been there for a fewyears and looked like a mound of earth with the occasional bit of grass andweeds growing out of it. (I think it can be seen on the left in the 2ndphoto posted by Longer ron).

At the start of the next season a new full timetug pilot was appointed. This tug pilot taxied the condor up to park next to thedung heap and missed judged his turn. He shut down and got out to push thecondor back. To do this he walked up onto the hard crust of the heap to givethe condor a push. As he pushed the crust gave way and he was up to his waistin s**t in more ways than one.

A week or solater he dinged a condor and was made surplus to requirements. As my contractin the world of earning money had finished I went back for the rest of theseason for a bit more fun.

Piltdown Man

25th Aug 2014, 21:24

Standing on the ground some 25 years ago I watched the last British owned Caproni A21 stoof its way into an asparagus field. What was more interesting was that I took off in it from Bideford-on-Avon with my syndicate partner about an hour before. It was a superb day for thermals. Big fat ones that gave eight to ten knots without effort. The deal was that we were going to give some people a ride later on, so we were returning to the field at about 110 kts or so. We had just overtaken a C150 and approaching 1,500' or so we hit a powerful thermal. As we did so, the flap lever popped out of its detent and we entered a violent pitch oscillation. At the end of the first cycle, entering the second one the right hand wing fell (OK, broke) off, rapidly followed by the tailplane and elevator. Game over!

Prior to this event there were seven other identical incidents resulting in 14 fatalities. As a result the manufacturer issued an AD to change the all-moving elevator into a standard fixed stabliser/elevator configuration. Unfortunately, we never got the notice that was issued three years beforehand.

We rehearsed what we would do if the glider became unflyable before every flight. We'd tell the other guy, release the canopy and then undo our harnesses. We fully anticipated that the canopy would not separate - it didn't! And if you think about it, a canopy separation is most unlikely because the only attitude these things are ever tested in is a normal one. But believe me, when things go wrong, the only attitudes you will ever see vary from abnormal to underpant-packing scary. For me though, releasing my harness (a superb Autoflug system, now EASA'ed out of existence) resulted in me being thrown onto the forward part of the cockpit underneath the fixed windshield.

After beating my way through the windshield with my elbows I was flung out towards the ground. My friend reckoned he would not be seeing me again. Our briefing though was to curl up in look for the D-ring - and it worked (well I am here). I now have five to seven seconds of parachute time. David though still had a battle to come. My departure caused the flight path of the airborne wreckage to change from an inverted negative g rolling one into a rolling phugoid path. When he jumped when it was easy; only to be pick up by the bloody fuselage a second later. Even when his chute opened he still wasn't out of danger. The detached wing flew around him like a demented combine harvester. Finally, his descent path took him into some domestic three-phase overhead power wires. Mine was a gentle descent (courtesty Messrs. Irving) into a grass field inhabited by a lazy horse.

David missed the power wires by climbing up the risers which resulted in him landing heavily on his coccyx on a couple's freshly watered front lawn. Walking like he'd just had a good night out in a Heaven, he attempted to obtain a medicinal G'n'T - but the occupants were too busy resuming their matrimonial argument to hear his request.

From the ground I saw bits glider zoom, flutter and swirl around the place. The detached wing landed on a path full of walkers. The T-Tail arrived in a small back garden missing everything. The right hand aileron landed in a small back garden where some very nubile girls (their clothes were far too small!) were sunbathing. The rudder descended vertically into a small gap between a brand new Mercedes 500SEL and a wall all within one metre of where a lovely lady had been gardening moments earlier.

However, two people were taken to hospital. Over the past few years, the village "God Botherer" had been telling anyone who would listen, and those who wouldn't, that God would smite them from the face of the earth. Especially heinous were those who frequented the pub. So when the entire pub rushed out, pointing at the sky, this was the message he had been waiting for. He lsot he plot in the road outside his house. So some nice people with blue flashing lights on the roof of their vehicle took him away. The other person was one of those who had just left the pub. Until that point, he didn't know he was an epileptic. Unfortunately, he suffered his first attack as he ran though a crop of fern asparagus, the plant that is used for flower arranging.

The other thing to suffer was the horse. He was fine when I landed but apparently took great offence to the police helicopter which landed in his filed after circling around for a while. This resulted in his condition being "stabilised" by the vet. His report stated "Overall, in my opinion this horse will never become sound again". Which was not a surprise because the poor nag had been shot by then.

It was a different sort of day. I'm glad we didn't hit anyone with the wreckage. It was also a "no news day" so we were hounded by the media. It was interesting as well as pretty good fun avoiding them. I had no problem gliding immediately after (with or without a parachute) but I didn't want to drive a car for a week. And it was this event that made it clear that I would have to give up an overpaid job (I still only earn half of what I did then some 25 years later) and do something else. Which I how I come to be here!

PM

longer ron

31st Aug 2014, 19:58

I will try and get in the loft and see if I can find that Condor article, I'm sure I still have it.

Please do - but hope you comply with all the up to date elfnsafety requirements for gettin up there :)

rgds LR

longer ron

31st Aug 2014, 20:04

To do this he walked up onto the hard crust of the heap to givethe condor a push. As he pushed the crust gave way and he was up to his waistin s**t in more ways than one.

Over vne - lovely little story - sorry late reply - been away out of interweb range ... I really enjoyed my flying at Tibenham,it was great to fly with Eric A - he was a refreshing change from my home club instructors who were a circuit bound lot.

rgds lr

treadigraph

31st Aug 2014, 20:05

I'm on leave this week LR, so will brave the dust up there and have a firtle around. It'll be in one of two crates...

Our Safety Manager would have kittens if he saw my method of ascent and descent - oh wait, no, the dodgy five foot step ladder has been replaced by a decent extending jobbie. Not getting any younger...

Incidentally, with the current enforced absence of ATC gliding at Kenley, it seems a crying shame that Surrey Hills GC don't seem to be able to take advantage of some of the lovely weekends we've had.

longer ron

31st Aug 2014, 20:44

Indeed Sir - tis a waste of a lovely airfield - not visited for a while !

treadigraph

31st Aug 2014, 20:47

Walked around the peri-track this afternoon. Far too quiet.

longer ron

31st Aug 2014, 20:51

PM - thanks for the Caproni story - I count myself fortunate that I never had to jump out of any a/c.
I bought my glider chute from a project engineer at GQ - he launched into telling me how good it was until he saw my eyes glaze over and said ''you glider pilots - not interested in parachutes !'' - too right I says - 'its an expensive cushion' :)

Mine was a lovely olive drab colour - none of that garish bright blue or red for me LOL - anyway I never had to use it but it was good insurance !

rgds LR

longer ron

31st Aug 2014, 21:01

Piltdown Mans post reminded me of this wee incident :)

The glider was operating from a gliding site at Dunstable, Bedfordshire, and was being used for a
one day training course. At the time of the accident the glider was undertaking the last intended
flight of the day for one of two students on that course. In accordance with the policy of the gliding
club, both the instructor and student were wearing parachutes and the instructor had briefed his
student on the use of his parachute and how to abandon the glider should this be necessary.
Thunderstorm activity had been forecast for the area and although a large area of bad weather could
be seen to the north of the airfield from which the glider was operating, it was advancing only very
slowly towards the local flying area. Heavy falls of rain and wet snow could be seen beneath the
advancing cloud line.
The glider had been towed to 2,200 feet agl and for approximately one hour had been soaring at
heights up to 4,000 feet in the area between Leighton Buzzard and Bletchley. For the last part of the flight, the glider returned towards the airfield and was flying along the front edge of this large area
of cloud, approximately 500 feet above its base, where the air was rising at 2 to 3 kt. The pilot
reported that he was in clear smooth air and close to the cloud. Shortly before the accident, other
gliders in the area had been returning to the airfield in view of the approaching bad weather. At a
local time of approximately 1709 hrs, after the glider had climbed back towards 3,000 feet, the
instructor also decided to return to the airfield ahead of the approaching weather and therefore
turned away from the cloud. A short time later when he estimated that his course had diverged from
the cloud line by some 30°, and they were approximately 2,500 feet agl (some 300 feet above the
cloudbase), at an estimated 800 yards from the cloud in clear air and flying at a speed of some 80
kt, the glider was struck by lightning and large sections of its airframe disintegrated.
From that moment, the instructor later stated that his memory was not particularly clear. He
remembered hearing a 'very loud bang' and then 'feeling very draughty'; he also believed that he
may have momentarily lost consciousness. On recovering, he felt dazed and remembered slowly
becoming aware that 'something was seriously amiss' and that this was 'a real emergency requiring
unpleasant and decisive action'. He was able to shout to his student in the front cockpit two or three
times to undo his straps and abandon the glider but, owing to some impairment of his hearing, the
student was unable to hear him clearly. The student had already decided to abandon the glider and,
after he had departed, the instructor followed but was surprised when he realised that he had not
had to jettison his cockpit canopy. It was estimated that both parachutes had successfully inflated
by 1,800 feet agl.
The lightning strike was only witnessed by a few people in the area, but many more saw its
immediate aftermath with large items of slowly falling debris, two inflated parachutes, the fuselage
descending vertically at high speed and a ball of smoke and fine debris next to the cloud where the
glider had been struck. All witnesses reported that the flash of lightning occurred simultaneously
with an extremely 'loud crack' and many of these, including one police officer in the centre of the
nearby town (Dunstable), expressed the view that it was probably the loudest sound they could
remember hearing. It was also recollected by many witnesses that this had been the first lightning
flash of a series of discharges which had then occurred in that area over a period of some 15
minutes.
Apart from the damage to the hearing of both occupants, 'sooting' to the upper part of the
instructor's jacket, parachute pack and the hair on the back of his head, neither suffered any major
injuries as a result of the lightning strike. The student pilot landed on the roof of a disused petrol
station adjacent to a busy road in the village of Northall, but escaped major injury. The instructor
descended into a nearby field and suffered a broken ankle upon landing. The rescue services were
quickly on the scene and both occupants were taken to hospital; the student pilot was allowed to
return home later that evening and the instructor was released four days later after surgery to his
ankle.

Piltdown Man

31st Aug 2014, 22:29

I heard about that one as well. And to show you what a small world this is, the instructor mentioned was one of my pupils. In the latter years I remember that he regularly asked me questions about my bailing out incident.

PM

treadigraph

2nd Sep 2014, 20:37

Longer ron, sorry, no luck so far finding Condor article in my loft, I'm away for a few days now but will try again next week. Mags are tattier than I recall; I'm fairly sure the copy in question featured the Condor tugging from a snowy airfield on the cover.

mary meagher

2nd Sep 2014, 21:53

These days if I want to execute the takeoff and landing I am required to fly with an instructor. Easier to get in and out of the back seat of the K13, so the poor instructor is persuaded to sit in the front.

And lo and behold, a new experience awaited. Absolutely stunning day, this past Sunday, lots of pilots following cloud streets hither and yon. At last a K13 became available, so Mick and I jumped into it, and took a tow behind the Supermonk (or is it Supermunk?)

It was pretty bumpy climbing out over the ridge, I was hoping for the tug to find us a nice fat evening thermal over Tysoe, the vario was behaving strangely, so I asked Mick to switch on the audio vario. It began to warble a new song entirely. What peculiar air currents were causing these erratic tones? I thought I saw the tug rise up over Tysoe village, so pulled off at 1,500. And the varios carried on warbling and wambling, both of them. Obviously unreliable. Mick said it was probably due to water in the tubes. Had to rely on the altimeter to know if we were rising or sinking, the ASI seemed to be OK. We swanned around the village for 15 minutes or so, and then decided to do a gentle left hand circuit back to my favorite corner of the eight acre. I was assisted out of the back seat, and drove the buggy to pull the glider back to the launchpoint.

And it wasn't until walking back toward the glider to coil up the tow rope noticed the Brunswick tube was no longer in place. Whether or not it was in place before we departed we were unable to say....

We couldn't find it along our takeoff path; evidently the enthusiastic and not always necessary use of a rudder lock had caused it to wear and eventually detach altogether.

We got a rocket from the CFI who told us off for not walking round the aircraft before flying it. So I learned something new. Even if somebody else has just been flying the machine and it worked OK for them, it is still a good idea to have a walk round, the last guy might not have noticed bits dropping off...

Sideslipper

8th Sep 2014, 22:30

I am often surprised by how misunderstood gliding is to power pilots. During a recent competition it fell to me to deal with enquiries (the number had been thoughtfully provided in the NOTAM).
"At what Flight Level will your guys be flying at?", and "When exactly will they be coming over Boggington-in-the Marsh?" were typical.
(Shouldn't complain really. At least they read the NOTAM).

Each of us has their own concept of what is important. Recently, stude in front seat on short finals with the intention to demonstrate his landing skills. Nicely set up. Hedge about to be crossed. Stude's mobile phone rings. Stude takes call.:hmm:

RatherBeFlying

8th Sep 2014, 23:33

Well, he's highly experienced and sometimes overoptimistic:\

If you don't land out, you're not trying;)

He did the test flight on a glider down for repair for over a year and went charging off while I wasn't finding anything that encouraged me to need finding another thermal to get home. The radio announced his landout a few miles down the road. Having enough altitude by then I did a flyover to find out where to bring the trailer.

We were talking on the radio and I let him know I'd get the trailer. On downwind the phone rang and I let him know I was busy:rolleyes:

Then the phone ringed on short final:mad: It was ignored until I came to a stop and I returned the call to another glider pilot.

Some weeks later, we were both in the air and able to get away, but not very far. He landed out 40 km away. This time I had suggested he have the trailer hitched before swanning off -- the right trailer was hooked up the second try after I suggested he check the reggie on the trailer:p

longer ron

9th Sep 2014, 08:23

Mobile phones are obviously a mixture of good and bad for land outs :)

One of the most dangerous things in aviation is distraction !

I had the 'privelige' of twice landing out within sight of a gliding airfield :)

The first was in a valley - my plan was to land uphill near the top - then trickle up to the top and end up on the fairly flat top field very close to a house and phone !!
Anyway on short final I realised that I did not have enough speed for the uphill flare so had to lower the nose a smidge - resulting of course in a slight undershoot - which meant I ended up parked facing uphill with the problem of getting out of the glider (libelle) whilst keeping the wheelbrake on :), I cannot remember how i achieved that but it was a good fun lateral thinking exercise LOL.
Anyway I turned the a/c across the slope and went to visit the two elderly ladies in the house for tea and cake :):) !
'Where did you crash ? ' - they asked because we could not see the glider :) - all good fun and the very next day I had the satisfaction of retrieving the guy who came to pick me up - although to be fair he did make it to the airfield rather than a remote hoose !

ChrisJ800

9th Sep 2014, 09:05

My first cross country and silver c attempt ended up with me landing out less than 4km away from Dunstable near Ivinghoe beacon which I thought I could slope soar as model gliders were doing so. But all I got was reduced sink. My paddock at the foot of the beacon was then chosen at the last moment and was small with a cross slope and was in view of all instructors and the CFI getting aerotowed up. It was a long and ignomous wait for the trailer.:eek: it could have been worse as I've heard stories of landings inside whipsnade zoo!

glider12000

9th Sep 2014, 13:30

My first XC was in a LS4b at Parham.

It was a northerly day so onto the ridge for the club PAR-HAR-LWN-PAR, so 124km total. I managed it at 100kph and landed back fairly happy completing it... only to find the logger hadn`t recorded the flight, and someone else had then taken the glider for their 5 hour attempt.

Looking forward to getting back gliding again very soon after 2 years off!

FrustratedFormerFlie

11th Sep 2014, 12:49

First solo, T21, RAF Sealand, 1973, 20-something dual launches in my book if I recall. Westerly winch launch, right hand circuit. "OK bloggs, top of the launch, turn right. At the downwind turn, if you have 900 ft or less (IIRC), turn downwind. More than 900 ft, turn 270 dgrees left to downwind to lose the extra height."
By heck the T21 went up a bit quick with 9st of Bloggs and no instructor. Launched into the smog and heat from Shotton Steelworks, turned crosswind, climbed (?) to 1200ft at the top of the downwind leg. Did a 270 - 1400 feet.
With the breathtaking logic of the bright Air Cadet, I do another 360. 1500 ft (I couldnt centre in a thermal even then) but the whole sky was going up with the heat from that steelworks)
Im now halfway downwind but at 1500 ft when a wee lightbulb goes on and I reach for the spoiler.
Pete Eyes, I so much enjoyed that course; Jim Chaplin thanks for sending me solo. Isnt it amazing how we can re-live our first solo in such detail, so many years later.
Anybody know where I can find a barge to go fly 'for old times sake'?:D

cats_five

11th Sep 2014, 17:39

A lot of gliding clubs have a 'barge'. You tried Aboyne? Easterton? I know there is one at Portmoak, not quite sure what a visitor would have to do to get a flight in one.

longer ron

11th Sep 2014, 20:37

My second 'within sight of a gliding field' land out was slightly bizarre in a quiet sort of way and also before mobile phones became the norm.

New site (site check a couple of weeks previously) - first flight of the year in libelle and I allowed myself to get a little low during a fairly local trip !
Couldnt quite make it back to the airfield and I ended up almost on top of a large,extremely flat harrowed field (much flatter/smoother than most airfields) - so I flew a nice circuit down to an almost fully stalled landing - as near to the gate as poss and close to a house with a phone line.
It is only during the flare that I notice little blue shoots growing :)...so anyway I walk to the house - no answer from the GC and the house owner offers me a lift to the GC (about 1 mile) - nobody in clubhouse so I set out to retrieve the glider myself !
The helpful house owner had told me that the field belonged to the large estate so I went to the managers house and spoke to the wife !
''Which Field ?'' she says... I explained and she said ''oh no - thats his new crop '' (linseed - very fashionable then) so anyway we retrieved the glider with her quadbike and letting son hold wingtip and I was thinking that I might escape without meeting 'Him' but of course he turned up just as we finished - 'Oh bloddocks thought I' but in the end he was happy that I hadnt caused any damage to his pet crop !
It was quite amusing to arrive back at the club towing my trailer and seeing the 'WTF' expressions on their faces :)

That reminds me that one of our members didn't quite get into Little Ris and landed his Open Cirrus in a field right next door so I took his trailer down there using his SAAB... boy - it was the worst access track I ever saw on a retrieve and must have scraped away a fair amount of SAAB on the way :) - over large rocky areas but the car seemed to survive to tow another day.

Of course unfortunately I cannot tell you about my most interesting land out LOL :O

BobD

11th Sep 2014, 21:56

First solo, T21, RAF Sealand, 1973 You might find this photo interesting, and even recognise some of the faces from RAF Sealand around that time. I did my three solo's in 1967 at Sealand, but this photo is from sometime in the 70's, when I had developed (pun intended) an interest in photography, and the guys at Sealand indulged me for a day.

I haven't done any Gliding for a while, but the Sealand experience set me on a lifetime interest in aviation, which cumulated in my PPL(A) three years ago. I did fly into Saltby last year and spent an enjoyable afternoon soaking up the gliding environment again. Maybe one day....

I also have a photo of me sat in the back of Chipmunk WP962 at RAF Colerne, that is now on display at RAF Hendon, but that's another story.

http://www.rjdawson.co.uk/flying/pictures/2-3-2008_022.JPG

longer ron

12th Sep 2014, 05:44

Nice pic -
And Ah yes - when the ATC used to do a LOT of gliding... I am sure there must be some great stories from ATC gliding Schools/Squadrons :)

Any more nice pics Bob ?
There is also the Air Cadet Gliding pix thread somewhere on here if you have some good uns !

rgds LR

Kataphract

14th Sep 2014, 15:10

Not particularly got any thrilling stories, though winching for Camp Hill's Vintage Week that one time was something of an...experience.

Now I mention it, went for my 5hr flight last year...got 4hrs50...

Damn

BobD

16th Sep 2014, 12:45

Away for a couple of weeks, but will dig some more pics out on my return.

Rgds

OpenCirrus619

16th Sep 2014, 15:43

Wasn't a bad day - some lovely clouds upwind. Took a 2000' aerotow - in an Open Cirrus.

With that sort of performance how could I fail to reach that huge Cu a little further upwind?

Well....

I hit some sink - so increased speed
I hit more sink - so increased speed some more
By now I was thinking "when I get past this sink the climb is going to be fantastic" - kept going
Pushed on a little further - still hopeful
Worked out with all that sink I could just make it back to the airfield - if I turned NOW
Amazing sink - back to the airfield REALLY quickly
Landed BEFORE the tug :sad:

OC619

Big Pistons Forever

16th Sep 2014, 16:07

After 38 years of flying courtesy of the iron thermal, I did the glider conversion course this summer, something that had been on the "to do" list for many years.

After 7 dual flights the instructor kicked me loose for my first solo. Off I go behind the tug, release on downwind, 2 360's, and set up for the landing. On short final I see everyone is lined up along the side of the runway to watch my landing :uhoh:

I get it down without too much embarrassment and braked to a stop. As my instructor walked towards the glider I had a flashback to the exact same tableau, only this time it was 1976 and a 16 year old BPF was sitting in the 150 he had just used for his first solo :cool:

On the third solo the instructor tells me to go to 3000 feet on the tow and see if I can find some lift. I fly around more or less aimlessly until I am down to 1400 feet and just about to turn to join the circuit when the vario starts singing. By more luck then skill I manage to more or less get centered in some lift and 5 or so minutes later I am back up to 3000 feet.

I know not very impressive to real glider pilots but it was enough to well and truly set the hook. The season is almost over but now I have all winter to search the glider for sale websites......

mary meagher

17th Sep 2014, 08:16

Well well, Big Pistons! Welcome indeed!

Few gliding clubs in the US or Canada use winch launching, in Britain we just hate to spend all that money for an aerotow....At my age, if I don't connect with a thermal at the top of a 900 foot winch launch, bugger the cost, I shell out for a tow....NOT to a particular altitude, but hang on till the tow pilot has towed me under a decent cloud and into a thermal. THEN I let go. (just a handy tip....lots of silly chaps think they won't get their money's worth unless they hang on to the prearranged 2 or 3 thousand feet.

No, dear, the tug pilot is engaged to DELIVER you to a decent thermal. When you see him suddenly rise up, and shortly after, you also rise, why that is your signal to disengage and TURN. Suggest that as a beginner, releasing lower than 2,000 would not be sensible.

There are actually 3 kinds of rising air. Thermals best for x-country. Ridge lift reliable in the right place with right wind direction, even in winter. But hard to go places. Wave....not for beginners! Remember to check the oxygen kit.

O yes, one more thing. DON'T just rush out and buy a glider.

Not every glider fits every body. Some are too small for big guys. You may be spending more than 5 hours in that very confined space....so try sitting in a lot of different friend's gliders just to see how it feels.

German gliders are usually the best. LS4, tried and tested. Don't go for the latest thing, but the most reliable. I was happy in a Pegasus for hours and years.

Best if you stick to club gliders for a while before splashing the dosh. Remember to dress warmly, no heater in these craft. We do fly all year round over here....but Canada is probably too cold....in Germany they usually shut down over the winter and perform maintenance.

Lots of love and do let us know how you progress.

Have fun! (the only good reason for flying IMHO)

Piltdown Man

17th Sep 2014, 10:35

BPF - How big are you, where will you fly (hill, mountain, thermal) and why? Will you be by yourself? No engine, self launching or self sustaining? These will affect your choice of glider. Don't rush until you have seen more! Also, if you are able to swap gliders after about two years, start with a modern(ish) Standard Class glider (15M, no flaps) and then get something more exotic when you can fly. There's nothing sadder than a newbie in an exotic, all bells and whistles device, who cannot fly it and getting frustrated because their new toy isn't as much fun as it should be.

PM

OpenCirrus619

17th Sep 2014, 11:11

Well Mary - the tow was behind G-OFER (possibly you were driving) :E

To be fair the cloud in question was some distance away and I was dropped in (probably) the best thermal available closer to the airfield - I was just being over-ambitous :rolleyes:

OC619

longer ron

17th Sep 2014, 13:49

Old RAF & ATC Pictures
Away for a couple of weeks, but will dig some more pics out on my return.

Rgds

Thanks Bob - that would be very welcome :)

pulse1

17th Sep 2014, 14:58

in Britain we just hate to spend all that money for an aerotow..

When I started gliding at Dunstable, many of the pundits worked out that, under the right conditions, it was cheaper to take an aerotow to 400'. If you released at that height you could go straight into the hill lift to wait for the next thermal to come along.

The club eventually stopped this by putting a minimum charge on the aerotow price.

thing

17th Sep 2014, 18:52

Took a launch from Winthorpe in a K8 (AKA the non penetration meister) and scratched around for a bit. Giant cloud appeared over Newark which I knew had to be working. Headed upwind towards it, groundspeed probably 2 knots. Got lower. Then a bit lower. Got low enough that I knew I wasn't getting back. Looked at landing in the grounds of Newark Castle. Hit the sink. Got slightly nervous as I picked out the colour of people's eyes on the ground. Came out of the sink into the core some, ahem, 200' or so over the Castle and rose away like a pro to cloudbase some 5K above me.

We live and learn.

cats_five

19th Sep 2014, 07:08

We have set our price for 2,000' behind our new Eurofox at £18. A bargain compared to the price behind the Pawnee.

Big Pistons Forever

23rd Sep 2014, 01:17

There is a ASW 20 (A model I think) in a Komet trailer for sale at my home airport. It has been sitting outside in the trailer unflown for 9 years. Thoughts/opinions ?

mary meagher

23rd Sep 2014, 09:19

I think you are not yet ready for the complication of the ASW20, which has, I believe, treacherous flaps. Beware beware! One of my friends who had a job flying Boeings thought he could cope with an ASW20; we thought he was showing off when he did a spin from about 700 feet when he mishandled the flaps in the circuit. Get a second opinion. My own opinion is DON'T NEED FLAPS! Keep it simple. No gadgets. Don't go for a bargain or a peculiar type. It has been neglected for a reason.

Pegpilot

23rd Sep 2014, 09:35

OK, I'll bite. The Wolds Two Seater Comp at Pocklington this year saw me and Dick land out near the Tontine Arms near Middlesbrough. I set off on foot up a country lane to track down the farmer, and the first person to pass me was a cyclist. Except he was bedecked in tweeds and a deerstalker hat, and his steed was a full blown penny farthing. Rather than exclaim "oh my, a guy on a penny farthing" I did the very British thing and nodded casually as he passed and gave him a casual "Afternoon". Aren't we a strange lot !

FullWings

23rd Sep 2014, 11:08

There is a ASW-20 (A model I think) in a Komet trailer for sale at my home airport. It has been sitting outside in the trailer unflown for 9 years. Thoughts/opinions ?
The ASW-20 is a lovely glider with good ergonomics and performance. Yes, it has flaps but they’re just another flying control and if you understand what they do and how you should use them, they are of great benefit. The “A” models allow > +45deg deflection in the ultimate landing setting, which produces a fair amount of drag to go with the lift. Add in effective air brakes and you can fly pretty steep approaches to short landings, which is genuinely useful if the need arises. Due to the flexible wings, it rides turbulence well and is nice and stable in a thermal.

There is no compulsion to use the most aggressive flap setting if it isn’t required and the glider will land perfectly well even in neutral flap; there are all sorts of “omigod” stories regarding the “legendary” and “dangerous" short field performance but having flown “A” models, I regard it as a useful extension to the flight envelope and fairly benign if you know what to expect and are in practice.

In terms of stalling/spinning, the ’20 will do both with a bit of provocation but if you’re used to doing that kind of thing in powered light aircraft, you’ll find the vast majority of gliders quite sedate, due to the comparatively long spans/fuselages and lack of torque/slipstream effects. I have yet to spin a soaring glider (as opposed to an purpose-built aerobatic one) that was anywhere near a lowly C150 in excitement. The problems appear when you fly close to or outside the CofG limits but you had that one coming, didn’t you?

The downsides of an early model ’20 are:

a) It’ll be fairly old by now but if it’s been properly maintained, this shouldn’t be an issue.
b) Manually connected controls after rigging. Quite a few people have left the gene pool because of this.
c) The gelcoat may not be in the best condition. Due to the flexible wings and the type of gel/thinners Schleicher used, it tends to crack/craze a lot.

If it has been sitting in a trailer for 9 years with no attention, I’d be very worried about the state of well, everything! If it was in Arizona, it’d probably be OK. Most other places, definitely not. The ASW-15 had an issue with fungal growth in the spar when mistreated - the ’20 has less wood in it but there still might be some ply in the spar roots in-between the glass, I can’t remember. Modern machines are all carbon/aramid now. If the trailer wasn’t completely sealed, insects have made nests in the pneumatic plumbing and small mammals have probably nibbled their way around the wings and fuselage, having a go at any wiring en-route. If it wasn’t liberally greased after its last flight, I’d expect all the exposed metal to be well rusty and any bearings to be in poor condition. If the instruments were left in there, I’d be surprised if any of them worked.

In short, I’d avoid it. There are probably well loved examples around which although more expensive, will not need much spending on them. It might be worth pulling this one out of the trailer and having a sniff but bring someone who knows sailplanes and preferably maintains/repairs them for a living...

IFMU

23rd Sep 2014, 11:44

My Schweizer 1-35C had flaps. Loved them. There was no treachery. I have heard people say bad things about Cessna flaps that go to 40 degrees. I like those too.

RatherBeFlying

23rd Sep 2014, 16:28

BPF, Check PMs.

The A model has two landing flap settings while the B and C models have just the first one which is quite adequate. The extreme landing flap setting in the A model has a rather low maximum airspeed. Exceed that and you are in a noseover:uhoh: Schleicher got rid of that in the later models.

The 20 is not difficult, but you do have to read the manual first. It's not a club glider.

Big Pistons Forever

23rd Sep 2014, 17:11

Full wings

Thanks for the info. I am new to gliding but have a lot of light aircraft flying experience including float, tailwheel, flying formation and teaching aerobatics, so I am not too concerned about the basic handling and I figure I can ease into using the flaps. My glider port has a long field so there is no need for a super slow approach.

My instructor has over 9000 flights and has flown pretty much every glider made and so before I go any further we will pull it out of the trailer, assemble it and see how it looks. The deal will probably flounder right there, but we will see and in any case the price has to be very right.

I currently own one airplane and a half share of another, so I have no illusions about the reality of aircraft restoration/repair/maintenence :ugh:. At least with gliders there is less oil and grease. :ok:

As for the rigging issue, well with hardly any looking I found 6 reports of pilots who took off with the elevator not connected :hmm:. The good news for me is that there is space for it to live in the club hangar fully rigged.

mary meagher

23rd Sep 2014, 19:53

Keep it in a hangar fully rigged? not planning to rig and derig, so not planning to fly cross country? Because if you did intend to fly cross country you should be well practiced in rigging and derigging your glider. It does NOT require an engineer to remove and replace the wings, just a good design and practice and a decent trailer.

Of course the US is the country where instructors in gliders are not required to have flown cross country. Can it be that Canada also does not require cross country flying in gliders to become proficient enough to instruct? dear dear.

I do hope that when you extract this ASW20 from its storage that it gives you pause. Skill in light aircraft and the other disciplines does not necessarily translate into soaring flight. For one thing, despite advances like flarm, it is still customary for gliders to fly closer together than power fliers are accustomed to, especially in competition. From day one in gliders, lookout should be paramount. The eyes outboard, not scanning the panel. How is your lookout?

Now if you were to start your gliding in a K8, I would be truly impressed.
As it is, I am just a tad concerned. Open spaces in Canada didn't prevent a recent midair when "blind spots" of opposing traffic resulted in fatality....

Big Pistons Forever

23rd Sep 2014, 21:47

Mary

My instructor was trained in the government cadet program in Poland in the 1970's. It was a very complete education in flying gliders. He also has cross country glider experience in 4 continents so I am pretty sure he knows all about that part of glider flying. The important thing is he feels I can handle an ASW 20.

As for the flying close to other airplanes, well with 240 hours of logged formation time with the other airplane wing tip 10 feet from mine at bank angles up to 90 degrees, I think I got that part weighed off. In any case it sure makes flying behind the tow plane pretty easy as it is just like extended trail but with no manoevering and the spacing with lead taken care of for you:ok:

Anyway it won't be until mid October before I will even be able to get a look inside the trailer so this is a long way from a done deal.

IFMU

24th Sep 2014, 00:06

I say go for it. At Harris hill we kept our gliders rigged in the hangar with no ill effects. I kept my aluminum ship rigged outside. That was hard on the paint. I have never flown an ASW20 but there have been a couple in the clubs I have been in. One guy who had an ASW20 used to fly B17's before he joined the airlines.

Tankengine

24th Sep 2014, 02:52

I say : look at the ASW20 with an experienced glider engineer and take their advice.
The work needed before flying it may be fairly small, or more major. That needs to be taken into account with the pricing. As has been stated, in a dry climate, good trailer, then more likely less work.
The ASW20 whilst old is a classic glider (newer than most C180s for instance),
Suitable for someone with a bit of experience.
Don't be put off, if it looks OK and the price is right go for it!:D
No engine to worry about!:E

mary meagher

24th Sep 2014, 08:29

Hey, IFMU, as an American glider pilot, can you confirm or otherwise my impression that X-country experience is not required to instruct in gliders?
Seemed to me in my long ago dealings with FAA GADOs, they didn't really speak the language at all at all.

As far as American built gliders are concerned, o dear! Constructed from aluminum (now how do we pronounce THAT word?) they are very sturdy and can be left outside, furthermore they are by definition a Faraday cage and so you don't have to worry when tickling CuNimbs! but have they yet built a decent 2 seater in the US of A? some of the experimental single seaters look interesting....but if I were looking for a nice glider now, it would still be something that would qualify for the Club Class competition....if I could afford one, an LS8....

Most old farts that still fly gliders prefer something with a handy get you home device, like self launching DG - now that is a very decent beast indeed, the t/o performance superb, the glide ratio very impressive, and still currently being flown x-country by the only person in my club who is older than me..... And he does hanger it in a T-hangar in the summertime..... but in the winter it goes back in its trailer in his home driveway, and he buggers off to Spain. All right for some.

But if you intend to shelter your baby in the club hangar, beware of hangar rash. This is caused by other eager pilots not noticing when their wingtips key your immaculate finish...

OpenCirrus619

24th Sep 2014, 14:32

Mary,

I would suggest that if you spell it Aluminum it's pronounced Al-ooo-min-um

On the other hand, if you spell it (correctly) Aluminium then it's pronounced Al-you-min-ee-um :E

OC619

IFMU

24th Sep 2014, 17:34

Mary,
I can confirm there is no x-c experience required to instruct. In a good club there is no lack of good x-c instruction. I never did any x-c, not counting an out 30NM and back on a great and easy day. Because of lack of spousal support, I never had the time to commit to x-c. But, I still had a lot of fun.

Not much in American 2 seaters. I like the 2-33 for training. It is a very cost effective machine, safe, and fun to fly. Once my kids hit 60 lbs I could put them in the front with ballast. We had ASK21's too, a much nicer glider but for kids the upright seating and ability to go in the front was a lot better.

As far as single seat metal American gliders, I would get another 1-35 in a heartbeat. I could be just as happy in a 1-26 or 1-34. I recognize they are not the ultimate machine. But, I had a lot of fun flying them.

Bryan

RatherBeFlying

24th Sep 2014, 22:40

Mary,

Our club put 3 candidates into the SAC Instructor course.

Only one had XC experience -- private owner.

Big Pistons Forever

24th Sep 2014, 23:28

A SAC class 1 instructor ( ie one who does not have to be under supervision when teaching) has to have at least a silver badge.

mary meagher

25th Sep 2014, 08:01

TANKENGINE, as an aussie pilot with reasonable intelligence (you give good advice!) are you saddened by the shortcomings of American and Canadian gliding? that cross country flying is not considered essential to instruct, and in fact does not seem to be encouraged? No wonder the sport does not attract young people!

Can it be that the North American climate is too cold most of the year, and the pattern of agriculture too challenging to offer comfortable fields and friendly farmers, as can be found in Britain...

I reckon its because in the only two states with warm winters (Florida and California) the countryside is cluttered with orange groves, shopping centers and impenetrable swamps. The culture is hostile to trespassers. The landowners keep firearms handy. No wonder Ramblers and Glider pilots would feel nervous about walking or flying cross country and possibly landing out!

My recommendation is that American and Canadian pilots who need to practice the art do at once plan a winter visit to Australia or New Zealand, including at least 2 weeks on a cross country gliding course, to make up for the sad lack of adventure in North American flying.

Then next summer a trip to Europe, to do a bit of rock polishing in the alps, or the Welsh mountains. And get your 50 k in a wooden glider, do it properly! Visit a farmer. I think the gliding culture in Poland would be tip top; they do build sturdy gliders. Big Pistons, perhaps your chief instructor could organise an expedition next year? Now that would be an adventure!

ChrisJ800

25th Sep 2014, 10:51

Hey Mary
Ive flown X country in UK and Oz and there are challenges of distance in Oz. For example Sydney is bad for cross country flying as you have the great dividing range as a big barrier thats tricky to fly over as you wouldnt want to land out in what we call tiger country. I used to have to do a 1 hr drive to Camden then hire a Cessna 172RG or 182 to Narromine (around 1 1/2 hours) just to do a 100km X Country. If you landed out you could get an aero tow retrieve as paddocks are huge. Or you could visit Waikerie or Benalla which are a long way from big cities and do great X countries from there. And a 100k triangle isnt really a X Country when you can cruise at 5000-10000 feet in blue thermals! You are basically in gliding range of the home airfield the whole flight.

In UK I did have one lady farmer come angrily over with a shotgun after I landed in her paddock. Fortunately our club could offer a free passenger flight for farmers, which smoothed things over with her. UK paddocks are often too small for aerotow retrieval.

IFMU

25th Sep 2014, 11:35

Cross country was definitely encouraged. They taught both places I was a member. At Nutmeg Soaring it was more "follow me" for the longer stuff. At Harris Hill we had some national team members and a Duo Discus. People in Nutmeg used to fly from Connecticut up to Vermont and back. At Harris Hill there was a huge amount of x-c with several 1000k trips flown out of there. I also soared in a commercial operation in Florida. While the commercial operation did not promote x-c, people did it with their own ships. Cloud base there is generally not high, but the lift is reliable when it is good. Lots of convection. You can even land out in Florida as my buddy with a Ka6 proved a bunch of times. I have not flown out west but the soaring there is legendary.

Don't feel sorry for me, or any of us colonials for lack of opportunity Mary! But, if you want to feel sorry for those of us that don't have the spousal support to fully engage that would be ok. Still, I am glad for the soaring I was able to do, and I will get back someday. It looks great out here in the Midwest.

snapper1

27th Sep 2014, 13:28

By sticking to the manufacturer's advice as given in the pilot's manual, the flaps on the '20' are not a problem and they give the aircraft the performance of a much more modern glider at half the price. Miss handle them and......well! What is almost certainly a problem is that the glider has been left in a trailer for 9 years.

Big Pistons Forever

27th Sep 2014, 23:34

What is almost certainly a problem is that the glider has been left in a trailer for 9 years.

Yup. I have talked to a shop in the US that is not too far from where I live. They specialize in the maintenance and repair of glass ships. They advise allocating $ 20,000 for return to service repairs/updates. :hmm:

Bottom line is the willingness of the owner to realize that and price it accordingly. We have not had that conversation yet.....

India Four Two

28th Sep 2014, 10:03

Mary,

Like the US, a Canadian Instructor's Rating from TC doesn't require any cross-country experience. Almost all of my instructing was done before I had ANY cross-country experience, but then most of the flights were above the airfield or in the circuit.

However, that doesn't mean there is a lack of cross-country flying. See this year's Online Contest for Canada:
Statistic: Club OLC 2014 - Canada (http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/clubRanking.html?st=olcp&rt=olc&c=CA&sc=&sp=2014)

I totted up by eye about 400,000 km in <2500 flights. Not bad for a country that has probably less than 1500 glider pilots who can fly for only six months of the year.

Also, many of the serious cross-country pilots are very dedicated. Next year's Nationals will be in Olds, Alberta. For Southern Ontario pilots, that's a 3600 km drive and for Quebec pilots, 4200 km. Ironically, the quickest route is through the US.

Piltdown Man

1st Oct 2014, 18:52

BPF - Fullwings has described the pitfalls of the ASW20 in excellent detail. Assuming you get a good one, you'll be impressed with how pleasant and easy it is to fly. But after a very short while you will go home disappointed. Why? Because unless you are mentored through the next step, you won't be able to use the performance which will lead to frustration. Let's make no mistake, we are talking about a cross-country machine. To knock a hole in the sky in it or using it just to do circuits would be like using a Ferrari to store coal in. You already understand weather, wind, clouds but you will his have to learn about them generally from underneath. Gluing wave, ridge and thermal lift together will take a few seasons to learn. The best way to learn will initially be on lead-and-follow trips and then possibly a competition or two. Regarding the landing flaps, even though your field is long, how long will the field you land out in be? And would you prefer to land in a field you haven't surveyed at a high speed or a low one? But having said that, the landing flap in the ASW20B is more than adequate.

PM

Shaggy Sheep Driver

1st Oct 2014, 18:59

I have heard people say bad things about Cessna flaps that go to 40 degrees.

Really? The ONLY good thing about Cessnas is that some of them have 40 degrees of very effective fowler flap. That advantage was lost when the H&S brigade limited it to 30. :rolleyes:

India Four Two

2nd Oct 2014, 13:10

SSD,

There are many good things about Cessnas, but I agree, losing that last 10° of flap was a bad move.

Big Pistons Forever

2nd Oct 2014, 15:27

What does Cessna flap settings have to do with gliding, or am I missing something ???????????

RatherBeFlying

2nd Oct 2014, 18:11

Practice forced approaches from downwind with 40 flap on final in a Cessna is not far off from using landing flap in a 20C (or B) or 27.

54 kts with 40 flap might be a bit slow in a Cessna though, but works beautifully in the 27 with landing flap. In fact you still need considerable spoilers to get through ground effect.

mary meagher

3rd Oct 2014, 07:32

Go back and read Piltdown Man's excellent advice on the previous page.

If the Canadian Gliding Club operates more on European principles than the American style of gliding (mostly private owned for profit, that is, like their health system)....then the Canadian club will have suitable single seat gliders for the new pilots to gain experience and skills without having to OWN A GLIDER. Why would any sensible person not take advantage of flying club machines? And after you have your Silver C, with 5 hours endurance, gain of height and 50 k X-country flight, time enough to try on a glider that fits your butt and your budget.

The whole advantage of belonging to a gliding club is that we help each other out and enjoy having friends around. And enjoy flying competition; the purest joy is reaching the first turning point at 3,500' to be greeted by the sight of your rivals in the farmer's field down below! Of course you would be happy to help retrieve them from an outlanding, and they will be more than happy to do the same for you. What goes around comes around, especially flying gliders in a gliding club.

Shaggy Sheep Driver

3rd Oct 2014, 08:01

54 kts with 40 flap might be a bit slow in a Cessna though

Sounds OK to me... even up to 4kts fast, I'd have thought?

Piltdown Man

14th Oct 2014, 07:00

...the purest joy is reaching the first turning point at 3,500' to be greeted by the sight of your rivals in the farmer's field down below!

No it's not. It's thermalling away from an upwind turning point close to ground level, looking at your rivals just beneath you in the farmer's field below.

PM

Rostori

14th Feb 2015, 01:30

Spending an afternoon being a proffessionally grumpy winchie, I was given a take up slack light quickly followed by an all out light. Sensing he didn't mean the all out, I started feeling for the glider. Of course the minute the cable moves, I get a stop stop stop.
Launchpoint says "sorry, premature launch"
I shot back with "nothing to be ashamed of, happens to a lot of men I'm told!"
I was pleased with myself, and he was more careful after that funnily.

TurningFinals

16th Feb 2015, 22:12

Nearly 3 hours in wave in an Astir CS a few weeks ago. Not an amazing story, but my longest flight by a long shot and so much fun!

skyking1

17th Feb 2015, 05:22

Is this thread also for engine failures? :)

thing

18th Feb 2015, 18:44

It's thermalling away from an upwind turning point close to ground level,

Not too close I hope...seen people come croppers doing that.

Sounds OK to me... even up to 4kts fast, I'd have thought?

Sounds OK to me too. I fly a 150 and my usual approach speed is 50 kts with the barn doors open, if it's a still day 45 kts for laughs.

longer ron

2nd Dec 2021, 21:04

I am quite shocked to see that my last post on this thread was in 2014 :)
My only defence is that my life took a very unexpected turn in 2014 - one of my usual lame excuses.
I actually returned to gliding in december 2018 after a short 22 year layoff.
I originally learned to glide with the Air Cadets and soloed after 21 launches,I then joined the staff of a Gliding School (613) whilst an apprentice at Halton and rose to the dizzy heights of P2/G1.
I then had an 11 year layoff and returned to gliding whilst working in zimbabwe in 1984 - resoloed in ...... 21 Launches :),I then flew on and off from 1988 to 1996.
After a 22 year short holiday I returned to gliding again in Dec 2018 and soloed in .... 21 Launches (I know :) )
Thus far I have managed to avoid any exciting gliding stories although I did finally complete my Gold Badge in Oct 2019 (only 50 years from A+B to Gold :)) with a climb from the winch up to 11,500',taking just over 2.5 hours to eventually work my way up to 11.5k. (low point 700' AGL)
I was flying today and first thing this morning it was ffffairly cold on a scottish airfield with the wind out of the North and hovering at just over zero deg c,fortunately the weather guessers were correct and eventually the wind 'backed' to westerly and it was then just a cold but lovely day.
I might have a few nice piccies - I will have a shufti in the next couple of days.

longer ron

7th Dec 2021, 06:29

Basking in the sun at the launch point in january a couple of years ago,a picture of sartorial elegance - the ensemble including a Dickies Quilted Tractor Suit (worn since 1980's),an old MOD Liney Jacket and 2 hats including the silly furry one only worn on extremely cold days.

https://i.imgur.com/skx4xTb.jpg

Wearing a similar outfit last week but this time with a greasy/grubby/rusty 'Hi Viz' Yellow Liney Jacket - as I walked over to the launch point (with the north wind blowing) - the duty instructor + an other seemed to be suggesting that I made them look smartly dressed :)

longer ron

9th Dec 2021, 14:16

As promised - some pics from my Gold Height flight a couple of years ago,I did not have a share in a glider at the time so I had to 'slum it' in a Club Junior LOL.
A nice day popped up and with a good forcast I made sure I was at the club early and bagged a single seater https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/emoji.php/v9/ta5/1.5/16/1f642.png,there were signs of 'Wave' lift about (indicated by lenticular clouds).So I thought I might have a go at Gold Height (10,000 feet/3,000 metre above the low point).I got a winch launch to 1300feet and once I was sure that the ridge was working I turned back towards the airfield and did an 80kt run back with a little airbrake to 'notch' the low point at approx 700feet and then turned back along the ridge to regain height and try to contact some wave lift.
I was lucky as 10 minutes later the ridge stopped working (quite a few radio calls from gliders returning low),I assume that the local 'Wave' had moved a little and was suppressing the hill lift.
The pics came out not too bad for a wee pocket camera :)

River Tay looking east from about 7,000'

https://i.imgur.com/6gDq4Vh.jpg

Looking across Loch Leven towards Crail
https://i.imgur.com/2BDfBRi.jpg

Similar view slightly different

https://i.imgur.com/Y2KlgP1.jpg

Looking South towards Forth Bridges

https://i.imgur.com/TP9H0Ve.jpg

Bingo :)

https://i.imgur.com/NE8vC9Z.jpg

3wheels

9th Dec 2021, 15:15

1,500ft?
10,500 ft
11,500ft?
15,500 ft?

Seen better altimeter displays!

longer ron

9th Dec 2021, 15:18

Hi 3W it was 11,500' - it does at least have a subscale for 5/10/20,000' - so I have also seen worse Altimeter Faces :)

RatherBeFlying

9th Dec 2021, 16:38

Got up to 18,000 off a winch, but the field's at 3,900. We can open the wave window, but I only had a cannula which is limited to 18,000.

DaveJ75

11th Dec 2021, 14:14

It certainly confirmed my pre-conceived prejudices, that you spend half a day humping aircraft around on the ground for ten minutes in the air..

That inescapable truth is one of the reasons I switched to powered flying. The other reason I am very sorry to say is that the 90% of gliding people I met... weren't... my type of people. I mean no offence by this - it's not you, it's me.

Shame, because whacking along in a really nice single-seater on a good day is a lovely activity.

longer ron

23rd Dec 2021, 13:04

Not many fresh gliding stories from me currently.
I had to sell my 1/2 share in a nice glider because my dodgy knee was making it difficult for cockpit access/egress,so for the last 12 months I have been slumming it with a 1/14th share of our 1962 Ka8b,not much in the way of performance but easy access,just waiting for something better to come along :)

My last little mini adventure was sep 2020 when myself and swbo drove from Perthshire down to Cranditz to view and possibly pick up a glider trailer - up at 0400 - out the door at 0500,drive down to Cranditz to view the 2nd/10th hand 50 year old glider trailer.
Booking into the guardroom was fun,the guy on duty was v nice but the lady in charge was a little fierce :),he looked me up on the great computer and asked if I had visited before - I said 'no' and he then asked me if I had visited any other stations ' ''loads'' I said,he seemed happy with my last 2 visits to Scampton and used my old company photo for my pass (I thought it easier not to mention I was now retired :)) - had a quick look at the trailer - bought it and should have been ready for return leg at 1300 but a snag with LH indicator on trailer delayed our departure until 1400 .So a 650 mile round trip - we dumped the trailer off at the airfield at 1950,our route being Cranditz/A1/A66/M6/M74/A702/M90 with a surprise diversion off the A702 just to make us even later (they closed the A702 a full day before the published date for road works).
Because we had refuelled in Lincs we just stopped once for a 10 min 'splash and dash' at Abington services on the way home -nice easy parking space in the HGV park :cool:.
This trip was done in our 2008 Sportage turbo diesel auto,a great little tow car and motorway cruiser,iirc the old girl did approx 35mpg overall and I certainly was not hanging about :)

Krystal n chips

23rd Dec 2021, 17:15

"share of our 1962 Ka8b,not much in the way of performance but easy access,just waiting for something better to come along "

That would be the Ka8c then.. :p

longer ron

23rd Dec 2021, 20:23

"share of our 1962 Ka8b,not much in the way of performance but easy access,just waiting for something better to come along "

That would be the Ka8c then.. :p
:) :)
Make that a K18 and I would be happy :) - surely a K18 is one of the nicest gliders ever built,I did manage a few flights in one in the early 90's - very very nice :)

ChrisJ800

24th Dec 2021, 03:08

Shortest Glider flight

Has anyone done a shorter first X Country flight? I took off from Dunstable in a club K23 on my first silver C distance attempt (50km flight). I got to about 10km away when I realised there was insufficient lift to complete the flight so turned back to Dunstable. I realised I would not make it back but that there was a model glider slope at Ivinghoe beacon so thought I may get slope lift off there to then get home. But the lift was insufficient and at a rather low height I decided to land in a small sloping field near there but adjacent to a road. Successfully landed across the slope and was only 4km from Dunstable field. Unfortunately too small for an aerotow retrieve so waited for the trailer whilst the instructors flying at Dunstable could easily see my poor landing spot. I did a successful 50km flight a day or two later when conditions were good. Merry Christmas.

blind pew

24th Dec 2021, 06:17

A short clip of my first Spin in an open top K6cr out of St Rémy en Provence after I did a re qualification to fly my grandkids.
https://youtu.be/DFH5xdbhADI
and one the other way
https://youtu.be/N7j5IxxytKA

India Four Two

24th Dec 2021, 06:35

A short clip of my first Spin in an open top K6cr ...

Three-quarters of a turn each way! Does that really count? :E

Grelly

24th Dec 2021, 08:09

Agree with #161. I "retired" from Gliding when the club sold their K18s and replaced them with far more boring K23s.

blind pew

24th Dec 2021, 13:30

Since the CFI had just flown an air test after major maintenance and decided that spinning it wasn’t a good idea and it was my first flight ever in an open top single seater I decided prudence might be a good idea.
I will add that I very early left a smoking hole in the ground in the mid 70s when someone had adjusted the brakes up on a Condor which limited the rudder movement and it took three full turns to recover. My then student wasn’t so lucky 20 years later and did leave a smoking hole and a re kitted Christian Eagle somewhere in Hampshire.
ps I’m a woose
https://youtu.be/qHlEVAPYqu0
and if you are counting

ShyTorque

24th Dec 2021, 14:31

Three-quarters of a turn each way! Does that really count? :E

Nah...now THIS is a spin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvbS-oHi9ro

blind pew

24th Dec 2021, 15:42

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1440/50336692_90db_424a_b4cb_3da2b1c408e6_f57ccfaca65b6df825f8a54 eddea3e91bf1ea99c.jpeg
Don’t like walking too far to my car in my 70s
Dengie marshes by any chance?
https://youtu.be/xzBEMtBSLFU

RatherBeFlying

24th Dec 2021, 15:57

blind pew

24th Dec 2021, 20:01

The Brits do a very good demonstration of spinning off a failed winch launch which is very similar to what kills pilots getting low in the circuit and « trying to stretch the glide ». It basically starts with the correct attitude but not the right speed; whilst looking at the threshold blogs starts a turn but with insufficient bank because he is aware of lack of energy and uses too much rudder to increase the turn rate; the nose starts dropping and bank increases which leads to blogs applying out of turn aileron and stopping the nose dropping with elevator…voila..rolls on its bank and its all over.
Demonstrating a full spin as low as safe is about giving blogs confidence and demonstrating the different visual horizon compared with a higher altitude.
When I went back into gliding after a break of 25 years the CFI demonstrated a full spin at 1,000ft which I thought was reckless…later I joined the realms of the converted.
My K6 spins were the first ones I had done in at least 5 years and maybe 10 since I stopped instructing. Far too many pilots are unnecessarily frightened of them.

longer ron

24th Dec 2021, 21:31

I will do a couple of replies to some of the above posts in the next couple of days but meanwhile it appears to be that time of year again so just to wish all the pprune glider guiders past and present a Merry Christmas and for some good flying in the New Year.

rgds LR :)

Krystal n chips

26th Dec 2021, 03:29

Since the CFI had just flown an air test after major maintenance and decided that spinning it wasn’t a good idea and it was my first flight ever in an open top single seater I decided prudence might be a good idea.

Given the CFI had decided spinning wasn't a good idea as you say, surely prudence would have been you not spinning just for the sake of doing so.

blind pew

26th Dec 2021, 14:51

CFI brought up on glass and from the later generation who haven't had the try it yourself spirit.
My first spin in glass was in the Pyrenees whilst under the wing of Spreckly with the world and his dog saying you don't spin a first generation 30 year old glider..My phoebus C..Spreckly insisted you should spin everything you fly within reason..so after a couple of days going through how to get out blindfolded I climbed up to 4 grand above the airfield and tried it several times until I got the hang of a smooth recovery. It wasn't as viscious as my later pilatus B4 which went through the vertical during recovery but still exciting.
I wouldn't spin a star ship especially the big Nimbus 2 seater which had a propensity to shedding bits of its wing but everything else and why Not?
The biggest load is in the recovery and generally I didn't get over 2.5g. I've had a lot more flying in the alps, one time I was knocked semi conscious with the airbrakes opening and the undercarriage lowering during a transit between mountains.
PS a CofA air test should cover all of the flight envelope.

Big Pistons Forever

26th Dec 2021, 16:03

While full spin demonstrations are useful in early training so that students understand them including how to recover, the hazard of emphasis on keeping the stick all the way back on entering a full spin is that it builds muscle memory that can kill you in a spin entry turning base or final.

The ground will get in the way of a recovery from a low level full spin.

The emphasis needs to be on never allowing a wing drop in the circuit to develop into a spin.

We lose many more pilots from spins in the circuit than spins from altitude.

/\ What he said. Unless you are deliberately doing glider aerobatics in a certified aerobatic glider and have the appropriate training, keeping pro spin controls in after the departure from controlled flight has no use in conventional gliding. It also as was mentioned, is negative training. IMO the most useless exercise in glider training is when the Instructor says "show me a one turn spin". Spin training both during initial and recurrent training should be scenario based on how glider pilots get into trouble in the real world. The recovery should be started as soon at the break and performance is measured on how quickly normal controlled is regained and on how little altitude lost. The muscle memory you want to develop is the instinctive stick forward ailerons neutral control yaw with rudder at the moment the glider starts to depart from controlled flight.

Krystal n chips

26th Dec 2021, 16:33

/\ What he said. Unless you are deliberately doing glider aerobatics in a certified aerobatic glider and have the appropriate training, keeping pro spin controls in after the departure from controlled flight has no use in conventional gliding. It also as was mentioned, is negative training. IMO the most useless exercise in glider training is when the Instructor says "show me a one turn spin". Spin training both during initial and recurrent training should be scenario based on how glider pilots get into trouble in the real world. The recovery should be started as soon at the break and performance is measured on how quickly normal controlled is regained and on how little altitude lost. The muscle memory you want to develop is the instinctive stick forward ailerons neutral control yaw with rudder at the moment the glider starts to depart from controlled flight.

Couldn't agree more with your post overall and certainly scenario orientated. That said, and I'm not being contentious, I also feel a one turn spin entry and recovery demonstration has it's merits when an instructor is assessing a pupil irrespective of whether this is for initial or recurrent training.

My rationale for this is for the instructor to be able to monitor the process from start to finish which is beneficial for both parties and certainly for the debrief.

Aerobatics are fine, if, as you say, the pilot is fully trained / authorised as is the aircraft but given spinning has a well established notoriety to kill even experienced pilots, then why would anybody risk doing them just for the sake of doing so. There are plenty of other ways to demonstrate good airmanship and flying skills without participating in an inherently dangerous action just for the " bravado" of doing so.

Big Pistons Forever

26th Dec 2021, 17:35

In our local gliding areas the thermals can be very narrow especially at lower altitudes. I have had the glider start to depart from controlled flight once when I was trying to force it into the core with excessive bank and the very low airspeed required to reduce the turning radius enough to stay the thermal. It was a non event as I recovered immediately at the wing drop, gave myself a mental slap upside the head, and went looking for a better thermal. This scenario makes a good training exercise as does setting up the killer base to final turn with bottom rudder used to drive the nose towards the runway. In this scenario knowing how to recover from a one turn spin is going to be absolutely useless as you will likely hit the ground before one rotation has occurred. The only way you can save yourself is with immediate recognition and recovery. Once any significant rotation has occurred you are done like dinner.

The bottom line is any aircraft needs to be stalled and yawing to spin. If the stall is immediately broken and the yaw rapidly countered, no aircraft will spin. If you glider is actually in a spin then it is because you put it there.

Heston

26th Dec 2021, 19:38

The bottom line is any aircraft needs to be stalled and yawing to spin. If the stall is immediately broken and the yaw rapidly countered, no aircraft will spin. If you glider is actually in a spin then it is because you put it there.

Yes.
I was once given a good piece of advice by a very experienced chap (graduate of ETPS, that sort of thing). He said if the aircraft does something you didn't expect, don't wait to work out what's going on - just move the stick forward to lower the nose first, then think about it.

nevillestyke

27th Dec 2021, 02:31

I attempted my first X/C on a hanglider, by going downwind, on an intermediate glider, with no vario, and dropping onto a tiny ridge 2.5 miles from take off. I didn't get up from there and so was faced with a walk back to take off, carrying all my glider and harness, or a 3 mile walk downwind to the nearest road, on a blazing hot July day. The next attempt, also from the same site, was with a borrowed vario and I doubled the site record, flying 25 miles.

blind pew

27th Dec 2021, 17:53

Gosh….I was just having a bit of fun wearing my paragliding helmet with GoPro attached to see what a spin in an open top glider felt like… it’s child’s play compared with what most paraglider pilots do and even at my ripe old age it was an non event.
One of the top civil UK aerobatic pilots …a mate who got me into competition level Aeros…commented in that I entered on one with two much energy (aka similar to a partial flick) and was cheating.
I will comment on what to do if all goes wrong and that is I put all of the controls in the middle to start with…stuffing the stick forward killed a fellow Trident pilot at the Châteauroux worlds many moons ago as he went into an inverted spin before digging a hole.
‘I’ve had that fall out of the sky feeling a couple of times below 200ft when mountain soaring both in the Alp Maritime and in South Africa, the latter where the glider flicked inverted, the second time in a heavier than air flying machine in 40 plus years. Controls central, allow nose to drop, build up speed and roll …it worked and was helped by terrain that fell away which is one of the prerequisites of mountain flying as taught by the french. IMHO it was the correct way.
The cause? Probably a massive thermal kicking off from the quarry adjacent to the slope I was soaring which formed a rotor at the quarry edge. I would guess we flew through the edge and the recovery was away and underneath the air mass.
I always regretted that my instructor never showed me spin recovery on a limited panel including identifying whether positive or negative as was in one of my training syllabi. I’ve only read about it in books but during my initial training limited panel instrument readings were demonstrated in upright spins.
You might be right about learning the position but I’ve seen line copilots and occasionally captains so frightened that they’ve frozen..we even had one of the latter lock himself in the toilet when he couldn’t cope with a situation. AF447 would appear to be one of those situations and one could argue that Gonesse with the copilot calling speed repeatedly and being ignored by the captain obviously out of his ability might have been another.
‘Flying is about having fun and not taking yourself too seriously’

biscuit74

28th Dec 2021, 11:15

A question,'longer ron' - is that Ka 8 you are flying 'Dervish' (DRV), once my wife's favourite wee wooden sailplane ?

longer ron

29th Dec 2021, 09:13

A question,'longer ron' - is that Ka 8 you are flying 'Dervish' (DRV), once my wife's favourite wee wooden sailplane ?

It might be :)
I am not sure if any of our current syndicate members have a pet name for the old girl,the average age of the members is on the 'mature' side and I am happy to report that I am not the oldest :)
Just need the rain to stop/cloudbase to lift a bit so's we can do some flying LOL

longer ron

29th Dec 2021, 09:20

A short clip of my first Spin in an open top K6cr out of St Rémy en Provence after I did a re qualification to fly my grandkids.

Never flown an open top 'Six' but did fly an open top Slingsby Swallow from Moffat Field,Gwelo a few times.
Dec 83 climbed the thing up to 5,400' AGL (which was approx 10,100 AMSL - as the field was at 4,700'),nice and comfy on the ground in shirtsleeves but effing cold at cloudbase LOL.

biscuit74

29th Dec 2021, 10:53

It might be :)
I am not sure if any of our current syndicate members have a pet name for the old girl,the average age of the members is on the 'mature' side and I am happy to report that I am not the oldest :)
Just need the rain to stop/cloudbase to lift a bit so's we can do some flying LOL

Haha - Well. if she is DRV, she used to have 'Dervish' written on the port side of the nose. She still did last time I saw her sitting dustily in the hangar, about five or six years ago.. My wife still reminisces about the gentle hooting she made while gently hill soaring. And yes, the syndicate in her day was a large one, mostly consisting of folk who only turned up to fly once in a blue moon.

It would be nice to get a spot of better weather, for gliding and power flying. There are a couple of (power, obviously) aeroplanes still stranded at Perth by the grotty weather & low cloud since before Christmas.

longer ron

29th Dec 2021, 18:19

Aha - the old girl had a complete repaint a couple of years ago so the name had obviously disappeared before I 'joined up',I never used to meet many of the syndicate members because we used to fly on different days,however the bad weather over the last 12 months has tended to 'squeeze' us into the same flying day,I think the record last year was 6 members on one day :)
A couple of the syndicate I have still never met LOL

Krystal n chips

30th Dec 2021, 12:43

.. My wife still reminisces about the gentle hooting she made while gently hill soaring. And yes, the syndicate in her day was a large one, mostly consisting of folk who only turned up to fly once in a blue moon.

.

I'm both intrigued and amused by your wife's memories. Did you ever find out what made this hooting sound by any chance ?

Plenty of hours in Ka8's, probably the best early solo single seater ever built. Wouldn't bite you, would soar in next to sod all lift, you could actually "hover" it if the wind was right and so very easy to fly as well rig / de-rig

pasta

30th Dec 2021, 13:38

Plenty of hours in Ka8's, probably the best early solo single seater ever built. Wouldn't bite you, would soar in next to sod all lift, you could actually "hover" it if the wind was right and so very easy to fly as well rig / de-rig
+1 - just make sure early solo pilots are briefed to stay upwind of the airfield!

If anyone's looking for a restoration project, drop me a PM; we have 2 that you could probably have for the value of the canopies...

India Four Two

31st Dec 2021, 04:13

On October 16th, one of the members of my gliding club did the best flight in the world that day, flying 1600 km (863 nm) in the wave in an Arcus M, averaging 180 km/hr (97 kts).

I've just listened to a very interesting podcast where Chester described his flight and Tyler, another club member and air traffic controller, described the necessary ATC arrangements.
https://thethermalpodcast.libsyn.com/the-thermal-episode-29

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x791/olc_chester_fdcdac9b1e30271a2ba3c774fc36947630a10a3f.png

An amazing achievement. I was at the airfield that day and was watching his progress on FR24. I didn’t think he was going to make it back before sunset, but he was helped by a tailwind component on his last southerly leg, which gave him a groundspeed of 124 kts!

I went to tow him back to the hangar after he landed. I’m amazed he could stand up after 9 hours in the cockpit.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1008x756/chester_after_1600_km_flight_947d9926990a48e20ecf90004eb2471 e5515db39.png

To put the flight into a UK perspective, it would be like taking off near Peterborough, flying to Eastbourne and back TWICE, and then flying to Dumfries and back.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1136x1164/uk_equivalent_chester_c2c57e7b63ea81eb5fe524780aa17415c03d37 36.png

longer ron

1st Jan 2022, 09:08

Blimey 9hrs is a long time in a glider cockpit - good effort.
My longest flight was 6hr 16m during my 300k badge flight but my barogram/barograph trace was nowhere near as high and predictable as the one posted above :)
It was an out and return and the return leg was hard work due to seriously changed conditions compared to the outward leg :cool:

Jump Complete

1st Jan 2022, 09:37

biscuit74

1st Jan 2022, 14:46

I'm both intrigued and amused by your wife's memories. Did you ever find out what made this hooting sound by any chance ?

Plenty of hours in Ka8's, probably the best early solo single seater ever built. Wouldn't bite you, would soar in next to sod all lift, you could actually "hover" it if the wind was right and so very easy to fly as well rig / de-rig

Hah - she thinks it was probably just the air whistling through small gaps between canopy and fuselage, or at the wing root junctions, possibly where some slightly loose fabric edges vibrated. A very friendly noise. The last Ka8 I flew - at Eden - did likewise occasionally, most probably due to lazy sloppy flying and slipping by me.

I agree, a fun early solo machine, very relaxing and confidence inspiring to fly. Hard to penetrate upwind in, but pleasant for early cross-country 'drifts' down or cross wind for a Silver distance. The thought of doing a restoration is tempting - it is a shame (but unsurprising) that so many older wooden ships are disappearing now.

India Four Two

1st Jan 2022, 23:31

My longest flight was 6hr 16m during my 300k badge flight but my barogram/barograph trace was nowhere near as high and predictable as the one posted above :)

You probably weren't flying near Vne* most of the time either! :eek:

* 151kts at SL in the Arcus M, reduces somewhat with altitude.

blind pew

2nd Jan 2022, 10:05

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x820/74d4b0c5_48d1_4209_88b0_08fd4d69ba3b_0fb7722f20029249cae6621 bfb1d502013aa16e9.jpeg
K18 looking towards the Connor pass after auto tow from Fermoyle strand county Kerry
My first flight in a K18 was a couple of years prior to taking this shot from my first Kerry safari. Fabulous machine..iirc one of our CFIs got enveloped in cloud whilst ridge soaring and inadvertently turned into the mountain. Said it suddenly got dark and he heaved on the stick, pancaked into the mountain slope. Fortunately no injuries but it took the best part of a day carrying the glider off the mountain. Kerry taught me a lot wrt micro meteorology as I too was enveloped when orographic cloud started forming upwind and below me…one of those sixpence /half a crown moments.
photo taken with hand held, wide angle canon through the DV of my phoebus C. Prior to GoPro days so some of the most memorable flights not recorded but stored in my bonce.

longer ron

3rd Jan 2022, 18:58

You probably weren't flying near Vne* most of the time either! :eek:

* 151kts at SL in the Arcus M, reduces somewhat with altitude.
Absolutely spot on IFT :)
Mine was sometimes the opposite end of the scale LOL,it was an Out and Return from Old Sarum - Ha'penny Green - Old Sarum in Sept '89 my Launch time of 1230 was kinda late - my Club at the time were not interested in x country flying and kept feeding club gliders into the launch queue in front of private owners and when I finally got to the front it just happened to coincide with the brand new (homemade) Winch appearing,I refused to be launched in my little libelle by this totally untried contraption (it would have been its first ever launch :) ) and I had to drive our dump truck up to our tried and tested old winch to get my cable.
Anyway I got away ok and the outbound leg was good fun with a fairly classic climb/cruise sawtooth profile on the barograph but as I neared the TP I could see the sky behind me changing to flat Battleship Grey,there was a decent thermal near my TP so I got my photo and headed south.I had a dodgy 30 mins or so just south of the TP where I was tiptoeing along at 46/50 Kt just trying to stay airborne (near Kidderminster on the barograph below),I reached the Cotswolds ok and had to fly a compass heading due to the bad vis/haze into the afternoon sun.I popped out of the haze just south of the Cotswolds and there were just 2 clouds visible to the south - I headed for the slightly darker one near Pewsey and joined another glider searching for lift ( something like an Astir) - he found it first so I went over to join him,I remember thinking to myself ''I am not going to fail now'' so I took the thermal for every foot I could and got my highest climb of the day (5,600'),of course when I left the thermal I soon realised that I had plenty of spare height to get back to OS so I gradually put the nose down and flew much of that last leg at near vne,I still had enough height to dog leg around to the west to cross the Caravan at 50 feet/120 Kt to announce my arrival and a gradual climbing turn into the circuit.The club were surprised to see me back as a Sea Breeze Effect had penetrated that far inland and they had no local soaring after 1530.I could not walk after I landed as there was an air leak around the nose hook and my feet were frozen in my light summer shoes :)
321 Km on the map I think and by far the furthest I had ever been from the airfield,of course the downside of an O/R is the distance from home but it was a really easy turn point photo and fairly easy nav except for the haze over the Cotswolds.

https://i.imgur.com/xrHaZQP.jpg

India Four Two

4th Jan 2022, 11:41

longer ron

4th Jan 2022, 14:03

Great write up longer ron. You’ve obviously got a good memory! :)
I love the picture of your barograph trace. Today’s pilots have no idea how lucky they are - no more smoking barograph drums, no more grease marks on the canopy nor struggling to get a TP photo from the correct quadrant.

Thanks IFT - I have a great memory for things 30/50 years ago - more recent stuff Hmmmm not so much ;).
Agree about barograph smoking etc - I had a Winter Battery operated one which was in lovely condition but soon realised my mistake buying it LOL - unlike the clockwork baro's there wasn't that reassuring tick tock from over the shoulder to confirm the damn thing was working :)
I got back into gliding a couple of years ago after a 22 year break and it has taken me a while to get my head round (and catch up with) some of the advances in peripheral technology - Hell I even have a 'Smart Phone' now with a GPS moving map display which is really handy for 'Wave' flying when lucky enough to trip over some wave,as B Pew alluded to with his recent post and pic.

longer ron

4th Jan 2022, 14:05

I forgot to mention that after my friend Chester landed from his record flight, I asked him why he had flown around the airfield for 15 minutes before landing. “To get used to flying slower than 100 kts.”

I like that :)

longer ron

4th Jan 2022, 14:15

K18 looking towards the Connor pass after auto tow from Fermoyle strand county Kerry

photo taken with hand held, wide angle canon through the DV of my phoebus C. Prior to GoPro days so some of the most memorable flights not recorded but stored in my bonce.

Nice picture BP :)
We were over that way for a road trip last september but unfortunately we got some inclement weather in the Dingle area - so never got the view.
Not complaining though we only had 3 days of rain in our 2 week hol so well pleased with that :)
We managed 2 aviation museums and drove down most of the west coast staying 2 or 3 days at some locations,our rough route was ferry Cairnryan to Belfast and then drove west to County Donegal - then in stages down to Baltimore for a lively Boat Trip,we did a little of the South Coast but had a time restraint because of my OH's work and we returned via Rosslare/Fishguard to drive north via a couple of steam railways :)

blind pew

4th Jan 2022, 15:29

L Ron…lucky with the weather..normally wait for three forecast dry days before we wander over to the other side of the ireland..sometimes we wait months.
One kerry safari was virtually no wave flying as too hot and sunny!
Another I flew over from the south of France and hired a car for ten days..didn’t get airborne as it lashed down everyday and one of the guys towing the K13 hit a bank so we all chipped in a score or so towards repairing his Volvo.
I was generally one of the volunteers de Kerrying the gliders which involved a lot of drying, brushing, hovering followed by washing all of the bearings out and regreasing.
‘But the flying was great..auto towed my pheobus of Inch..slope soared with just enough height to get back to the beach and after a while I found a sweet spot where two low wave systems met…Airspace is 7,000ft and club rules are that you have to go through the beach master to contact Shannon to climb higher…quit at 12,000ft as light fading and I needed enough time to de rig. Rather dark especially with the canopy misting up so sideslipped using the DV window which continued to the beach.
But even best was flying along the seaward side of Mount Brandon (3,000ft +) with a cloud base of 1,000ft at VNE….and 500 yards from the mountain over a force 5 sea state to avoid going into a stronger lift band and cloud.
and you tell that to the youngsters…..
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1512x749/c7d81437_14b0_4a75_8cc0_2f2129a15bae_1635d096706c7922f5a322e d2657f609d0250d7c.jpeg
Inch strand ..phoebus C ..first glider to do a 300km in uk according to late owner who had a mid air at La Motte du Caire..club gliders in the background

longer ron

4th Jan 2022, 18:34

L Ron…lucky with the weather..normally wait for three forecast dry days before we wander over to the other side of the ireland..sometimes we wait months.
One kerry safari was virtually no wave flying as too hot and sunny!

Not just Luck BP - we did some planning and had a shortlist of Hotels/BandB's etc + places/sights to visit but we did not book anything until the weather forecast started to improve for our holiday dates,I also had to MOT one of the cars which was a bit delayed due to heavy bookings for mot's at our local garage (a hangover from covid - he was even getting bookings from further afield than usual).
So as soon as the car was done and the weather was looking at least 50/50 we did a flurry of bookings 2 days before departure LOL
Thanks for the Ireland gliding pics - we did have a quick look at Inch Beach - knowing its gliding connection,but we did not have the time to do any flying/club visiting.

longer ron

18th Jan 2022, 08:53

Agree with the earlier comments about the K18 - I did my Silver C in one, 25 years ago, no electric varios etc, just a basic mechanical vario and feel. Lovely handling and pretty good performance for a wooden ship. I loved her. Also agree with the need to stay upwind of the airfield in a K8. I got a well deserved bollocking for drifting downwind in a weak thermal and scrapping back over the hedge instead of making a field landing (lots of good options.) Got away with it, by luck, not skill.

Glad you got back to the field ok JC - I saw it happen many times with older gliders - there is absolutely no truth in the rumour that I might have had to land in an unusual part of Halton Airfield in a T21 whilst returning from the 'Bowl' (which we were verboten to use anyway LOL),no truth either that I might have been banished to the winch for 3 weeks because of it :).

longer ron

18th Jan 2022, 08:55

Ninthace

18th Jan 2022, 11:41

I still have a model of K18 R43 in its livery at the time I flew it. While not the hottest ship in our fleet, it was, IMHO, the most fun to fly. I understand at some time in the intervening years, it unfortunately lost an argument with a hedge.

As for landing in unusual spots at Halton, my cross country check ride involved recovering from unusual attitudes and extreme ridge scratching before finally crossing the canal and spot landing on the volleyball pitch, all with a covered panel. But you tell the young people today ...

longer ron

18th Jan 2022, 14:23

As for landing in unusual spots at Halton, my cross country check ride involved recovering from unusual attitudes and extreme ridge scratching before finally crossing the canal and spot landing on the volleyball pitch, all with a covered panel. But you tell the young people today ...

Sounds fun - the trip I was talking about was when I was on the staff of 613 GS,I already knew I was in trouble on that trip as our then CO Sqn Ldr 'Jacko' was parked up in the layby up on the tring road (he used to 'keep an eye' on us sometimes when he was not on duty :) ) - we were absolutely verboten to use the ridge/bowl in ATC gliders at that time :).
I had to do a x country 'field' landing into a very small area whilst flying in zimbabwe,I was flying a Skylark 3b - of course with excellent airbrakes but it was a cracking day - my pleas to leave it until early evening fell on deaf ears,I even tried again whilst airborne when I told them on the radio that I was climbing in a thermal with the airbrakes fully open :).But no - I had to do it - I had the devil of a job losing height on the downwind and base legs to get into the 'postage stamp' but I managed to stop just short of the far marker (the area was just off the airfield in a roughish patch of scrub) - they said ''you only just scraped in'' - I replied that it was a very unsuitable time of day to do it and if they had tried it with somebody less experienced they probably would have ended up with a broken glider.Gliders out there were like gold dust due to lack of foreign currency.

Ninthace

18th Jan 2022, 15:17

Yes, as I recall 613 GS did not encourage gliding and they did not seem to like us doing it either and certainly not on their side of the airfield unless we were high enough to need oxygen (ok, slight exaggeration).

I did establish the volleyball net and associated poles were removed before launch. I cleared the canal by not much then floated in ground effect briefly before arriving a bit short of the baseline followed by generous use of wheel brake which made an impression. I had the CFI in the back seat so I had top cover. It was a fun trip in may ways, he got me almost amongst the trees on the ridge at the Wendover end and asked me what I was going to do. I told him at that height I would already be downwind abeam the winch.

longer ron

18th Jan 2022, 15:35

Yes, as I recall 613 GS did not encourage gliding and they did not seem to like us doing it either and certainly not on their side of the airfield unless we were high enough to need oxygen (ok, slight exaggeration).

It was a fun trip in may ways, he got me almost amongst the trees on the ridge at the Wendover end and asked me what I was going to do. I told him at that height I would already be downwind abeam the winch.

When I was flying at Halton - 613 was the sole gliding user of the airfield (except for occasional glider flights from the 'other' Bessonneau' Hangar/Chipmunk Flight down by the control tower),I would not say they did not encourage gliding - we did lots of training for the cadets which is of course where many of us started gliding/flying but the majority of our flying was more or less just in the circuit.

I also had a fun trip with a CFI doing a practice field landing in a K13 at a civvy club.

Ninthace

18th Jan 2022, 17:35

When I was flying at Halton - 613 was the sole gliding user of the airfield (except for occasional glider flights from the 'other' Bessonneau' Hangar/Chipmunk Flight down by the control tower),I would not say they did not encourage gliding - we did lots of training for the cadets which is of course where many of us started gliding/flying but the majority of our flying was more or less just in the circuit.

I also had a fun trip with a CFI doing a practice field landing in a K13 at a civvy club.

It changed then after the Chilterns Gliding Club moved in from Weston and they lost aviation exclusivity. A lot of turf warfare. We had similar at Cosford. For some reason the GS did not get on with the GSA which seemed odd as I thought the GS was there to foster an interest in the RAF. The advent of the red and white motor floaters made things worse in my opinion.

longer ron

18th Jan 2022, 21:03

Yes thankfully I was long gone from Halton by that time.
One little coincidence from Halton was that I later (after leaving Halton) ended up in front of a Wingco Eng (MT related) and the fact that I had taken his son up for AEG at Halton helped enormously :)
One little bit of fun that came out of my GS flying days was when I joined the gliding club at Moffat Field,Gwelo whilst working on Hawks in Zimbabwe in the 1980's,a couple of instructors looked at my Log Book and were LOL'ing at my 330 Lchs for a grand total of 25 Hrs TT :)
They were also puzzled by the fact I had 'P2' grade glider pilot stuck in the back of my log book (thinking of course that all pupils are P2),I tried to explain it was a throwback to an old 1950's RAF Rank Structure and was actually a pax rating (Later replaced by G1) but I am not sure they ever believed me :).
The other funny thing was that I had never done any thermalling,I just could not seem to form a mental picture of what to do - eventually it 'clicked' and did quite a bit of exciting flying out there inc a thermal from 600' AGL up to 11,500' AGL :)

BDM

20th Jan 2022, 15:20

Cool the read these stories, old and new. Glad the K8's are still going strong. :) Most of my first 50 solo hours were spent in the cockpit of our club's beloved K8b OO-ZDT. Got my silver C in her and had my first proper outlanding. She was a lady and is still going strong. Please keep the stories coming! Roll on the soaring season. Greetings from Belgium!
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x540/18739787_1275277415860760_7000419073332987987_n_9c16c0cf9660 fd7d8b262d11063f831ba571855e.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x768/1bea0a84a7aca2bd3654b563fa2aea17d5b56a04_8d6046cffa4094b1b02 5d566acf6e712f2280e93.jpg

longer ron

20th Jan 2022, 18:13

Hi BDM - nice pics of the old K8 and nice little write up.
A club K8 that I used to fly was an ex Netherlands Glider and had the anti Fence Wire Canopy Bars still fitted - very useful for the left hand to hang on to whilst flying - Did/do Belgian Gliders also have canopy bars ??

rgds LR

BDM

20th Jan 2022, 21:31

longer ron

21st Jan 2022, 06:15

Thanks for the nice pic and info BDM :)
The canopy bar equipped K8 was one of those situations where when I first entered the cockpit - it seemed a bit strange and almost claustraphobic to have the bars so close to the head/eyeline,but soon became accustomed to it and as previously discussed - a 'handy' handhold :)
Our K8 of course does not have the bars - so sometimes tricky to find a parking place for left hand,I usually have a kneeboard on left leg so that isnt an option LOL and the other obvious place is a bit cold in a scottish winter :cool:

biscuit74

25th Jan 2022, 20:47

On a gliding theme - does anyone know what the story is behind the two seat sailplane, possibly a Duo Discus - which landed out on a hill in North Wales last weekend. Appears to have landed out ON the hillside itself, amongst the heather/bracken near the top of a slope. No-one hurt, but getting it down without damage may have been, or may still be, a challenge.

Stretched the glide? Sudden loss of lift due to a wind shift? Or, as nearly happened to me once, mis-assessed the glide angle over gently sloping ground?

EXDAC

25th Jan 2022, 22:54

:) Yes, those protection bars always did seem more well-worn (if not eroded) on the left hand side... As the trim is on the right it was the natural place to put that idle hand!

In general the canopy protection bars are a Dutch thing AFAIK, but most of our K8's (we had 4 at one point) had them for some reason despite not having any Dutch provenance (as far as I am aware).

It was probably thought to be a necessary addition to protect the novice pilots from themselves on their first XC adventures. They certainly saved a few pilots from serious injury or worse during outlandings based on the stories told around the club house!

I would have liked to have had wire protection in one of my ASW-19b outlandings. I had lined up for what I thought was clear area but at about 50 ft AGL realized I was landing along a fence line. The glider left wing landed on the fence and the glider turned left under the fence. Some subliminal mental protection mechanism told me to raise my arms to protect my face and neck. The barbed wire shattered the canopy and pinned me to the headrest. The wire would have cut my throat if I had not raised my arms. I was able to get out my squirming under the wire and exiting through the broken canopy.

Wire is nasty and it took me a long time to be a competitive racer after that experience. No accident should be without some analysis. This accident happened because I was making bad decisions due to dehydration. That, in turn, was caused by having an inadequate relief system.

India Four Two

26th Jan 2022, 01:48

EXDAC, you were very lucky. I know of one fatality and one very near miss, involving barbed-wire, both in Alberta. Both were at airports, not out landings – one undershoot and one overrun.

I know it is not applicable to your incident, but I tell students that if they are heading towards a wire fence, even at slow speed, drop a wing and ground loop the glider. Much better to go through the fence backwards!

pasta

26th Jan 2022, 09:21

On a gliding theme - does anyone know what the story is behind the two seat sailplane, possibly a Duo Discus - which landed out on a hill in North Wales last weekend.
Definitely a Duo Discus. I only have this third-hand, but sounded to me like it was the least-worst landout option; being Winter, apparently the fields in the valley are all full of sheep. No damage done, and the retrieve crew got a free gym session.

Also heard that someone called Mountain Rescue (completely unnecessarily) who were then perfectly positioned to assist a hillwalker with a medical emergency.

biscuit74

26th Jan 2022, 09:40

Thanks pasta. It does look well conducted; the photos I saw were from different angles and made it hard to assess what had happened. Sounds like 'Plan B' should have been in use a tad earlier, before the 'oops, now what' point. Sheep are very panicky beasts so certainly agree best avoided if possible. It's the chance of rocks just hidden by the bracken/heather that would concern me.
(I like the idea of the free gym session; they'd have been too tired for that by the time they got it out. In the bad? old days it would have been many beers and dinner all round !)

A lovely machine the Duo, with handling so nice it is easy to get lulled into a sense of false security. I had one instance of a very low 'float' over a section of moorland.in one. Final glide, with just enough height to clear the top of the last ridge but what I forgot was the long flat slope behind, which felt uncomfortably similar to the glide slope of the machine for about the next 3 to 5 kilometres. Puckering, and a useful lesson !
When I saw the first pictures I wondered if that was what had happened !

pasta

26th Jan 2022, 09:57

Sorry, what I meant was that they got a free gym session *while* carrying bits of glider off the hillside. I'm sure the pilot was left with a hefty bar bill afterwards, some things never change...

longer ron

26th Jan 2022, 10:33

I thought I had lost my old 'P2' Chit forever but came across it today whilst looking for something else.
I got my P2 rating when the CGS Trappers visited Halton during the best month to fly open cockpit in a T31/Mk3.
The 'P2' rating was changed to 'G1' (grade 1) fairly soon after this date.
Now suitably 'Foxed' by age https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/cool.gif

https://i.imgur.com/O5BFk9T.jpg

JW411

26th Jan 2022, 16:26

Big Pistons Forever

27th Jan 2022, 02:33

We have had a couple of good wave days this year,here is a wee pic I took at 9,000 ft in a K8,it was fffairly ccccold in the cockpit - good job the sun was out :).Looking south towards the Forth.

https://i.imgur.com/LNPIgdL.jpg

Sigh……You just had to post some glider porn 😩

It will be 3 months before my club starts up again……

27th Jan 2022, 09:54

Krystal n chips

27th Jan 2022, 17:01

I remember a chap from my old days in the RAFGSA (1960/70s) who had barbed wire marks either side of his mouth which he had collected from an out-landing in Holland or Germany. He was lucky he didn't lose his head. The first glider I ever flew fitted with the protection bar fitted was Ian Smith's old Skylark 2 (497) in 1969.

Don't recall GGA having the bars fitted, but, this was the reason I plonked Bruggen.s K18 into a field. Went to Helmond, came back in still air ! ..fantastic but then got near Weert. John Willy said yes, the brain cell said no. Between me and Bruggen was Roermond, marshy ground, with lots of barbed wire, rising ground with forest and the Maas..which sucks,as they say. Every X country brief stressed the dangers of the encounter you witnessed.

However, having arrived back in earth, next step is to call Bruggen to come and collect. Wander across to Dutch "farmhouse" and notice a lot of expensive cars. Get to front door and sign says "Chateau de Sade "...undeterred, knock on door and then notice the bel.l..well you know, easy to miss. Door opens and am greeted by a lady "suitably attired"...ask politely can I use the phone, showing 1250..being Dutch, she was fluent in English so "No. (rude word) off !!" came the reply. Well you can't see a sign on the door from 2000 ft can you !

To be fair, she did have some justification as the sight in front of her hadn't actually shaved for a couple of days and the sartorial elegance of the grow bag had been " somewhat stained " over time. I was reliably informed by ECW the venue had mysteriously caught fire one night some time later.