Broken down in France

[piperboy84]

Flew down yesterday and the alternator has packed in, does anyone know if a similar rated (12v 60amp) alternator for a lycoming 360 has to be the exact model as the bad one or if it fits and it's the same rating I can stick it on to get me home? Knowledgeable answers only please no Walter Mittys or Persian lancers.

[Piper.Classique]

Are you running a lot of avionics? Do you need electricity for flaps or gear? Where are you?
What is the current alternator and exact type of engine,type/serial number of engine and alternator?
Aircraft type, even?

[piperboy84]

Rennes
The altenator kicks in above 1600rpm, but does not charge the battery I could limp it home but don't fancy it especially crossing the channel
The battery and voltage regulator were replaced yesterday as I though that was the problem, an expensive route to identify the alternator was buggered but it is what it is
Not heavy avionics
Airframe maule mx-7
Engine lycoming 0-360 c4f
Alternator kelly aerospace ( now hartzell) ALX 8521 or ALY 8520

[PA28181]

Beg,borrow or buy a hanheld.

We had afailed alternator returning from Lands End in the climbout. just turned everything off until it was neccessary to speak to anyone. No idea what your time en-route would be but get the batt charged, use external for startup then min time on radio enjoy the silence until next call.

[Piper.Classique]

Pa28181 has had exactly the same thought as I did.......
Just go VFR VMC and turn the radio on where necessary. Ditto transponder. Charge the battery prior to start, it's not as if you need electricity to make the engine run once it is going.
If you want GPS use the one on your phone. I once ran the Cub for six months without a working generator, charging the battery every five or six flights. Radio is low load, especially on a listening watch, transponder uses rather more. Don't run the lights.
Have asked around, but can't locate a suitable alternator, you will probably have to do an exchange when you get home. If it is on your way, we can charge your battery at Chauvigny, LFDW. You can get as far as the Deauville CTR non radio from there. You probably won't need a handheld, unless you plan very long sectors in controlled airspace.

[cockney steve]

From the described symptoms, it sounds as though a phase is down.....typically, a 12V system will charge and regulate to~14.2 V
a rectifier failure will bring it down to~10 volts either way, it's likely there won't be the voltage or current output to be useful!

You have your "old" battery? charge both it and the new one, use as needed.....a half-competent Sparks or Aircraft engineer should be able to give you guidance on current consumption for lights, radio, transponder, instruments etc. and you can then work out a sensible usage without killing the battery.
remember that flight-instrumentswith Gyros tend to use a fair bit (motor internally) Electric flaps/gear are greedy as well, but only for short periods....do things manually wherever possible.

[PA28181]

When we had alt failure (didn't actually know what precise fault was) the V/R was changed and on the next flight alt failure again, this time the alt was changed and no further probs.

If you do get off with a well charged battery and said Ta-Ta on the radio, and are quite happy to lose your elec gyro's, do as we did, turn the master off until required, It's not a real drama if you have decent VMC and charged up GPS's.....

[A and C]

Take the drive belt off by slackening the tensioning arm, check for current at the field connectors, of no current the regulator is inop. If no current put a 12 v current to the field terminal on the alternator is harder to turn when the current is applied than when the current is off the alternator is is working OK.

Check the connections on the back of the alternator , most problems are due to bad connections.

While looking at the wires check the data plate and call Airparts or Adams, they will likely have an alternator or regulator that they will dispatch to you if paid by card.

Finding a French mechanic to fit it sould not be to hard.......... Cash is king in such situations.

PA28181........... What is wrong with a map compass and stopwatch ? No need for this new fangled GPS thing.

[PA28181]

PA28181........... What is wrong with a map compass and stopwatch ?

Nothing.


As for getting a french mechanic to do all that fault finding and then supply and change/test the alternator (If thats what it is) When I was stuck at Perigueux with a broken carb heat cable it took two days to get sent to Toulose then couriered to Periguex and the rest of the day to fit it.

Charge up, start up, take off, master off, land at base. Dont fanny about waiting for fault finding.

[Piper.Classique]

Just noticed you are at Rennes. If you don't want to go home as is, you can eurostar by changing in Paris. There is a maintenance organisation on base, let me know if you need anything translating.

[A and C]

Sorry I did not know that UPS, FedEx & DHL did not deliver directly to Perigueux or other places outside the major city's.

[Piper.Classique]

Hi, A and C
We get car parts from MG owners Club in 24 to 48 hours, delivered to the house at the end of a country lane. Royal Mail if small bits, and I suspect whoever is doing the best price if a large item such as an axle. Rennes should absolutely not be a problem.

[Red Four]

Eurostar - or you could catch the new Flybe/Stobart Air Rennes-Stobart Air flight!

[Small Rodent Driver]

Whip it down to the local automotive alternator refurbishes for a rewind / replacement of diode pack.

[jxc]

I had the same thing in a Cessna 172 do as everyone saysget the battery fully charged then fly home with only radio on. I don't mind flying it back for you or with you?

[PA28181]

Sorry I did not know that UPS, FedEx & DHL did not deliver directly to Perigueux or other places outside the major city's.

I presume that is a sarcastic pop at me. However DHL did deliver the spare part from our home base in the UK to Toulose and motorbike courierd to us. Why call me a liar. Whats your problem....

[Camargue]

This may be a really silly one - do you have the old battery? If so much room in the compartment? Could you Wire them up in parallel that way double the endurance.

[S-Works]

Jesus, just fly it home. You are not far away. I flew my Cessna back from Cannes once with a knackered alternator and have flown the Auster to Italy and back with no electrics at all!!

[maxred]

If I could make what hopefully would be taken as as sensible suggestion. Get it fixed.....

Those advocating flying from Rennes, to Forfar, with an inop alternator, well, rather you than I:=

[Talkdownman]

As bose-x and PA28181. If you can get the O-360 started just go, stay VMC, and get back to Blighty somewhere. The Channel won't know you haven't got any charging. A hand-held wireless might come in useful to talk to dest, but Popham wouldn't make a fuss if you pitched up non-radio. They have cheap fuel, and maintenance who know Maules, and toilets, coffee and sticky buns.

[Pilot DAR]

I hope that Piperboy has found airworthiness, and a safe trip home. That said, I suggest caution against recommendations for repair which does not conform to the specified maintenance practice for the aircraft, or worse operating it with known unservicabilities, without knowing the implications of doing that.

In Canada, the applicable regulation says:

Unserviceable and Removed Equipment — Aircraft without a Minimum Equipment List

605.10 (1) Where a minimum equipment list has not been approved in respect of the operator of an aircraft, no person shall conduct a take-off in the aircraft with equipment that is not serviceable or that has been removed, where that equipment is required by


(a) the standards of airworthiness that apply to day or night VFR or IFR flight, as applicable;
(b) any equipment list published by the aircraft manufacturer respecting aircraft equipment that is required for the intended flight;

............



For Piperboy's aircraft, the Type Certificate Data Sheet says:

......
Equipment The basic required equipment as prescribed in the applicable
airworthiness regulations (see certification basis) must be installed in the aircraft for certification. In addition, the following items of equipment are
required:
(A) Stall Warning Indicator, Maule drawing 6016F
.........



I would expect that the stall warning, in addition to many other systems, would require electricity, and no, just a well charged battery does not meet the requirement.

Yes, some aircraft types are permitted operation with some failed systems, and yes, some don't even have electricity, so no problem for them. However, most aircraft require it - not optional for takeoff.

The battery of a certified aircraft will have demonstrated the capacity to run a selected portion of the electrical system for 30 minutes, but maybe not much more. When I did a electrical load analysis of a Cessna Caravan, I found that from the factory, the amount of time the battery would continue to operate the minimum required systems beyond 30 minutes was 40 more seconds.

The internet affords us the opportunity to discuss things, which perhaps should be discussed with great reserve. Most certified aircraft dispatched with inoperative electrics would not meet the Type Certificate, and thus be legally unairworthy. This has serious insurance implications, particularly if an accident is in any way associated with the defect.

Sorry to be the writer of doom, and I wish the best for Piperboy, and those who have a breakdown away, but we do voluntarily fly the aircraft bound by regulation. I would not want to be on record here as promoting bypassing the regulations. Can I say that every flight I have flown was in a perfectly airworthy aircraft? Nope! But I'm not discussing the details here!

I have a long trip (40 hours of flying) next week. Several components I could possibly need are in my workshop, packaged, and ready to ship to me wherever, should I have a failure, and require a replacement along the way. (The most likely is a tailwheel assembly!) For those who fly long flights, having access to some common spares, and the means to re and re them, is worth consideration. This is one benefit of a teamwork club group, so you're not on your own....

[cambioso]

I'm not sure of the serviceability status of Bleriot's alternator when he crossed the channel...................
Sorry......Jet lagged sarcasm!
Seriously, as advised frequently here, just go.
Stay VMC, switch off the radio, stay well ahead of the a/c always with a mind for possible diversion airfields en-route, and marvel at the countryside (and sea!) passing you by.
The wings will stay on, and the donkey will continue to make noise with no electricity, I promise!!
Good luck (and enjoy the "adventure"!),
Jez

[Piper.Classique]

Well, what a fuss. I flew for ten years without any sort of radio, and we only installed a transponder three years ago. Never stopped me traveling. Flew from Poland to the west coast of France radio inop, no transponder, which involved a certain amount of telephone calls. Flew for six months generator inop, and have never had a stall warning on the Cub or any of the gliders I fly, two of which at least had «interesting» behavior at the stall.

This is VFR flying, people. Use the real horizon, map, and compass, stopwatch. Use the radio if you want, learn to handprop. I can hand start an O—360 on a taildragger, and I am far from tall. (OK, now is probably not the moment to learn, get someone to teach you properly)
This is a Maule, not a 747 we are talking about. Mind you, with the forecast as it is for the next couple of days, looks like a couple of days holiday in Rennes is on the programme.
Enjoy the food and wine!

[longer ron]

As talkdownman posted - he does not have to fly all the way back to scotland to get it fixed and i am sure Popham or other airfields in the sunny south would be the answer - he might as well get it fixed in england whilst we still have a common currency ; )

As others have said - a handheld would be useful :)
And wait a coupla days until the weather improves !

[Victorian]

This happened (or something very much like it) to me near Stockholm. It turned out after quite literally replacing everything else that it was high resistance in the field circuit breaker. I still have the offending item on my desk as I write this. Just flick the circuit breaker with a fingernail. You never know.

[cockney steve]

@A&C & @Victorian Have both , effectively, given a similar hint.

CHECK TIGHTNESS OF CONNECTIONS AIUI,the specified torques for the terminals are far lower than your normal Automotive spannerman would use...the figures do not account for burred threads, burning from previous arcing or even different friction if the tin-plating has worn off the threads.
They need tobe firm and tight, A loose connection can corrode or arc (burn)(as I suspect was the problemthat Vic. had)

Clean and shiny, bright metal, firm contact =low resistance, electricity can flow.

Alternator....Stator(fixed coils in casing) are normally connected to diodes, so arranged that 3phases combine to give a DC output......If a diode (one way valve)goes faulty, it allows electricity to "leak back" instead of going "forward"

thus, you lose output from a phase but the alternator will still produce a small output.

to produce electricity, you need magnetism. The spinning bit of the alternator is the Rotor....it is wound with a coil of wire,the two ends of which are connected to slip-rings Carbon brushes,mounted insulated carriers, carry current from the regulator,through the coil , via the sliprings. the coil thus magnetises the rotor, which,when turning, makes the stator produce electricity.

Sometimes the regulator is built into the Alty. (usually solid state)

so you'll have a main output terminal and a smaller terminal for the warning light. An external regulator will have a "field" wireto the alty the warning lamp may go straight to the Reg. and not to the Alty...so, still 2 terminals ,but different functions for the smaller ones.....yes,it can beconfusing, you really have to study the circuit,understand how it works and then you can test and diagnose accurately.

There are a lot of "mechanics" out there who replace parts willy-nilly until they hit lucky and eliminate the fault.
Why should they give a damn? it's your wallet that's emptying and theirs that's filling! they don't feel the pain and if the customer isn't clued-up, =well, ignorance is bliss!


here endeth the lesson:}

[belowradar]

Phone ahead and warn your VFR airfield that you will be non radio and go for it (with good VFR weather)


I was impressed with posting after break down, not something I have ever considered although I have hitched lifts home from Calais. This is something I will consider in future especially with regard to hitching a lift home if I have to abandon ship !

[piperboy84]

All fixed, flew to Orleans Friday, ordered a new alternator, got the train to Paris and got pissed up for the weekend, returned to Orleans at lunch time today and stuck on the new alternator with limited tools. Have just landed at Cherbourg and want to stop for the night in the south of England, any ideas of a field that has fuel for tomorrow, a budget motel nearby and outside the London TMA?

[Piper.Classique]

Popham, pub less than a mile away

[piperboy84]

Went for Swansea, landed tonight, very friendly folks., quite fancy Ireland tomorrow

[Pilot DAR]

All fixed That's the way.... :)

[cockney steve]

want to stop for the night in the south of England,

Went for Swansea, landed tonight,
Stone me! I thought my geography was bad :}

[piperboy84]

Seven flight hours since the fix yesterday, 2 of them over water, It's running like a dream again. Man I love this flying addiction and the Maule, it's all good.

Thanks to all for the help and advice, both on the board and PM's

[Small Rodent Driver]

You deserve a pint after all that. If you make Bar 10 I'll set one up for you.

[maxred]

Stone me! I thought my geography was bad

There is a rumour, that the English reclaimed it, because after Scotland gets Independance, the Welsh are next, and the English quite like it apparently...Swansea that is;)

[cockney steve]

So, If Swansea is "south of England" does that make Jockistan "northern England?":}

As far as I can remember, at least 3 goodthongs have come out of Swansea..
Burly Shassey.
M4
Railway

:} couldn't resist. :p

For "goodthongs", read "good things"

[phiggsbroadband]

I am just waiting for England to declare Independence....


.

[Pilot DAR]

To my disappointment, I broke down a long way from home yesterday - stuck exhaust valve in 245 TTSO O-360. Was it ever stuck! It just stuck turning final at my intended destination, which turned out to be about the best place in Canada for this kind of problem! Lucky me! One long hard day of work, and some excellent help, and loan of the proper tools, and I'm on my way again.

My first "grounded" breakdown in 38 years of flying!

[Piper.Classique]

38 years and first time grounded? Wow!
Only happened to me twice since 1981, so not too bad either I suppose.
BTW, congratulations for becoming a Mod, or maybe commiserations.......

[piperboy84]

How do you go about fixing a stuck valve?

[tecman]

Gave me a chuckle, Pilot_DAR. I once had the first sign of a stuck valve in my trusty old C150F, also in the circuit at a very remote outback airstrip. A very obliging LAME (with tools) hitched a lift on a fortuitous charter flight, then performed the "indian rope trick" and reamed the valve guide. In a really comforting display of confidence in his work, he then hopped in while I flew him back to his base. All good, and never a repeat performance by the 0-200.

[Pilot DAR]

I've previously had stuck valves in my O200, but I did not expect one in the O-360, with only 240 hours on it. yes, the rope trick (which can have its own problems when you get the rope wrapped around the open valve, and stuck in there). I took the valve out, in accordance with the Lycoming procedure, and used the Sunnen guide hone, which a friend brought me, to hone the guide back so the go/no go gauge fit well. I then repeated on the other three cylinders, to be sure, but they were fine. Without the help of friends, and the proper tools, I'd still be on the ramp, a long way from home - now, I'm happily continuing my trip to catch up to the group, and much further from home!

[cockney steve]

a loooong time ago, I bought a Skoda of 1966 vintage. It was a quite sophisticated vehicle, considering the antiquated materials they were working with leather or cork oil seals ,for example.

Car went,very suddenlyonto 3 cylinders,so I limped it the half mile home and guessed a stuck valve....removed rocker-box and sureenough one pushroddisplaced and valve partway down.
"repair"....Remove sparkplug, poke something (wire/ screwdriver) down hole and turn engine so piston is well down the bore. get big hammer and smite rocker above stuck valve.....after a few blows,it returns fully.smite a few more times and time it to shove the pushrod back under the other end of the rocker

engine ran faultlessly therafter. :)

bit of a redneck yee-haaa repair but saved rmoving the head,etc. took about 15 minutes all in.

[Crash one]

Only valve problem I had was on a Cont C90, certainly not stuck, I could see about a millimetre of daylight between the guide and valve stem! Creeping lack of power. Cure, one reconditioned pot, half a day to fit. Not exactly a yee haa job but cheaper than a CAA Part M carry on!