News

[tonker]

I'll just let you read this, whilst I keep stocking my bunker!

Malaysian Plane 'Shot Down With 295 On Board' (http://news.sky.com/story/1302864/malaysian-plane-shot-down-with-295-on-board)

[Onceapilot]

No surprise. Civi airlines have continued to route above, and into, all sorts of hot spots in recent history. RIP innocents involved.

OAP

[NutLoose]

:( tragic....

Someone got a grab of the screen where the Ukrainian separatists in the East claimed responsibility

https://mobile.twitter.com/StateOfUkraine/status/489802664264212480/photo/1


A post from one of the passengers prior to boarding apparently

"Should it dissappear.. this is what it looks like".

http://m.spitsnieuws.nl/archives/tech/2014/07/passagier-mh17-post-foto-voor-crash

:(

[Lonewolf_50]

Mountains of sadness, looks like a tragic mistake. :{

[MPN11]

Comprehensive coverage in R&N, of course.

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/543733-mh17-down-near-donetsk.html

[Melchett01]

Some of the early news reporting suggested it was brought down by a Buk surface to air missile system.

In old money, that's a SA-11, a radar guided system that was originally designed to replace the SA-6. Now, I suppose it is conceivable that elements of the Ukranian military that defected took a system with them, or that the opposition has captured a system from somewhere.

If I were Putin, I'd now being doing all I can to confirm the provenance of whatever system was involved. If it was purely down to Ukranian defectors that's one thing, but if there's any evidence at all of links back to Russia through supply , training, manpower or even as far as radar C2 and cueing, he's going to have a lot of explaining to do.

[NutLoose]

They think there were 23 American citizens on board as well, they are saying the system was possibly captured when they took over some bases, one would have thought they would have tried to disable them.

[4everAD]

And to top off what is obviously a quiet news night Israel is invading Gaza.

[Al R]

6 British nationals on board - Hammond's baptism of fire.

[Courtney Mil]

Israel is not invading Gaza. Most here are well-read enough not to fall for that sort of Daily Mail headline.

[500N]

Courtney

I'm reading that the invasion of Gaza on other media, not the DM.

"The prime minister and defence minister have instructed the Israel Defence Forces to begin a ground operation tonight to destroy the terror tunnels dug from the Gaza Strip into Israeli territory," Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said in a text message.
Read more: Israel starts ground operation in Gaza to stop Hamas rockets (http://www.smh.com.au/world/israel-starts-ground-operation-in-gaza-to-stop-hamas-rockets-20140718-zu9yw.html#ixzz37la6Bei2)"

[Tashengurt]

I see the Sovi.. sorry, Russians are going for the "well they started it" excuse.


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[tonker]

If the folk who launched this missile are Russian backed, this will be the end of Putin I feel.

[GreenKnight121]

Israel is not invading Gaza. Most here are well-read enough not to fall for that sort of Daily Mail headline.

Funny, the NBC Evening News just did an extended show about both incidents - including live reports from their people in Israel watching the IDF tanks moving through Gaza, as well as live footage of the action.

[tonker]

Video of the plane being hit, and descending. Not an Antonov!

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ede_1405650125&comments=1

In some video of the aircraft crashing there is high level stratus, and in some some scattered CB. Of course you only need to go five miles down the road or look in a different direction and hey presto the weather has changed. Thought you might want to take this into account when watching what does look authentic.

[dctyke]

We'll CM, Routers reporting tanks are over 10km into gaza (0630). How far in do they have to go before it's an invasion or encroachment (both meaning the same thing in the oxford dictionary).

[Courtney Mil]

It looks to me like a land operation with specific tactical objectives. Germany invaded Poland, Argentina invaded The Falklands, Iraq invaded Kuwait. A "cross-border op" is hardly the same thing.

I know all the media folk are using the word and I know we don't always fully understand Israel's longer term objectives, but I rather like Wikipedia's definition:

The term invasion usually denotes a strategic endeavor of substantial magnitude; because the goals of an invasion are usually large-scale and long-term, a sizeable force is needed to hold territory, and protect the interests of the invading entity. Smaller-scale, tactical cross-border actions, such as skirmishes, sorties, raids, infiltrations, or guerrilla warfare, are not generally considered invasions. A military endeavor to take back territory that is tenuously held by an initial invader during the course of war is instead generally called a counter-offensive.

[Melchett01]

"If the folk who launched this missile are Russian backed, this will be the end of Putin I feel"

Tonkin,

Not necessarily. We would all do well to remember that Putin isn't a politician, he's an Intelligence Officer.

And if you think politicians are a bunch of scheming, duplicitous types hell bent on securing their position .....

[Melchett01]

Apologies tonker - damned autocorrect and I can't change it on this app

[NutLoose]

It's about time they had the balls to put sanctions on Putin as they have with all his cronies, no travel would be a start..... I would also move the World Cup to a different venue.

I see Russia is setting up its intelligence bases back in Cuba, the trouble is the west just keeps yielding and that is seen as a weakness in Russia, and having Obama does not exactly help..

[NutLoose]

Prediction....

We will get a lot of hot air and guff spewed out by our and other politicians the World over, and then nothing.

[Jollygreengiant64]

I agree with Nutloose.

Dave has already cracked his 'Those responsible must be held to account' Line, for the umpteenth time this year.

[Self Loading Freight]

Can anyone with some whoosh-bang-nasty knowledge say how an SA-11 could end up being lobbed at a civil aircraft without the op knowing what was on the receiving end?

[walter kennedy]

Wouldn't there have been a visible exhaust trail from most of the SAMs that could get that far up?
Until more investigation is done, let's not discount the possibility of yet another battery fire/explosion - and avoid travelling in 777s in the meantime.

[MAINJAFAD]

SLF

Having operated and maintained Russian SAM systems I can answer that question. Very simply anybody who has had some simple training in operating the system can engage a non maneuvering high altitude target as the system has a high level of automation built in. It was designed to be operated by conscript / reservist crew with minimal operational training (I learn the basic operation of a Russian system from running it up to engaging a non jamming target in a day!). What was the operator seeing and thinking?

He saw a blip on the system search radar within the engagement zone of the equipment.

He was under orders to engage any aircraft that came within the engagement zone of his system.

He didn't know or didn't care that there was an airway within the airspace above his missile system (nor were his commanders).

He engaged the aircraft and shot it down. He didn't know what he was shooting at, but he thought it was an enemy aircraft.

[MAINJAFAD]

Walter

The missile has three stages of propulsion. Boost (get the missile off the launcher and up to flying speed) Sustain (keep the missile at flying speed for as long as possible) and Coast (missile keeps going until drag / gravity brings reduces velocity below a speed that the missile can fly). The missile was most likely in the final stage of its flight when it intercepted the 777, thus no fire at the back to give a smoke trail. The video that is on the net of the start of the aircraft decent has all the hallmarks of a proximity fuzed warhead from a missile being the cause of the loss of the aircraft.

[Onceapilot]

Vid in tonker post#15 certainly looks like a twin at high alt. Cannot make out if initial puff of smoke is a missile hit but, amazing if someone was just filming a random fly over. Seems likely whoever filmned it was actually following where the missile went. Aircraft seems basically intact with flames from the no2 engine and a large plume of burning fuel from the right wing. It looks to remain that way for the period of the film. Very sad. However, comment by foxvc10 that he saw this as an earlier shootdown of a Clank seems very likely.

OAP

[Boudreaux Bob]

Upon determining just exactly who is responsible, to include those on the ends of the telephone conversations indicating their involvement, the group leadership that immediately claimed the downing then as quickly removed that claim, and anyone remotely involved in the decision to fire that Missile should all be visited by the B-2 folks with a full Fleet Operation until we whack everyone involved.

If Putin makes so much as a peep then we put into place Economic Sanctions that will force his own Military to remove him....permanently.

But as we have Welfare Man at the Helm, about all we shall hear is some half witted comments and token sanctions on Russia that are meaningless.

The Europeans will wring their hands, and do nothing as well.

[Wander00]

Russian Ambassador to the UN in the security Council - utter b@lleaux - "Not us guv, we weren't there, and if we were we did not do it - and it all Ukraine and the West's fault" What an absolute tosser

[foxvc10]

The video is the first Antonov (Clank photo version) shot down. It is a re-post as I watched it a couple(??) of weeks back. I believe the crew used parachutes to escape.


At 35000ft there would be a contrail surely.

The bursts of smoke would be the fire extinguishers.

[Ian Corrigible]

We will get a lot of hot air and guff spewed out by our and other politicians the World over, and then nothing.
Wouldn't want to upset the bankers...

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73344000/jpg/_73344509_document.jpg (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-26426969)

I/C

[Lima Juliet]

Here is the conversation in COBR:

The Meeting - Red Dwarf - BBC - YouTube

"The time for talking is over. Now call it extreme if you like, but I propose we hit it hard, and we hit it fast, with a major, and I mean major, leaflet campaign."

God help us if we get as far as the T Shirt Campaign!!!

LJ :p

[TomJoad]

Ronald, don't be so bold as to appoint yourself arbiter of truth, folk here are pretty well exercised and capable of discerning falsehoods from reason. Have a wee bit of humility, if only out of respect for those who lost their lives today and the kin left grieving.

Not sure what the latest development is but the early reports that the flight data recorders were on route to Moscow didn't instil confidence. Not that there would be any point in tampering with the evidence, there was no justification in the shooting down of a civilian aircraft, but Putin must understand that he cannot be seen to be influencing any aspect of the investigation. One can only wonder at the intention of today's events; I don't know what to make of the so called intercepted message from the missile commander. If it is authentic then I'm not sure they knew what they were firing at, but that just beggars belief. In any event, this is a tragedy beyond words, I find all I can do is offer condolences to the families and friends who lost their loved ones.

Tom

[NutLoose]

The pictures on post 404 are pretty damning

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/543733-mh17-down-near-donetsk-21.html

[Just a spotter]

Here is the conversation in COBR:

May I suggest that it may be more along the lines of this little gem ...

watch?v=IX_d_vMKswE

There is however, just a hint of Dr.Strangelove about the whole thing.

JAS

[Martin the Martian]

I suspect Putin thinks he's untouchable. He got Crimea without the West doing that much about it. Why should this be any different?

[Chugalug2]

OAP:-
Civi airlines have continued to route above, and into, all sorts of hot spots in recent history.
Well some Civvy airlines have, and it would be interesting to see a complete list of them, and then to note the various regulatory authorities under which they operate. Then make a list of all the airlines that operate under such authorities and avoid traveling on any of them would seem a good start in the self preservation stakes.

[Wander00]

Just for the record, It is appalling if true that these dissidents are preventing the decent recovery and repatriation of the 298 bodies. There may be worse scum, but I find it difficult to think who they might be.

[Melchett01]

I'm sure it's nothing to worry about, but does anybody else find Ukrainians wandering round the crash site, wearing RAF uniforms, slightly strange if not concerning?

https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t1.0-9/10487283_1509866945913618_1822664197906099312_n.jpg

It does rather make me wonder what happens to all the 'official' aid we send to these various wars!

[500N]

Melchett

I caught a glimpse of the uniforms on TV and thought they looked British
but didn't have time to confirm.

[Davef68]

Presumably the 'dissidents' shop at British Military Surplus?


British Army Desert Shirt - Grade 1 - British Military Surplus (http://www.britishmilitarysurplus.co.uk/shop/shirts/british-army-desert-shirt-grade-1123302.html)


There is a part of me that wonders if they are trying to draw NATO forces into this -the fear is pressure builds on the politicians to 'do something' to secure the crash site, so they send in a battalion of paras, and give the Russians an excuse.

[Whenurhappy]

The Romanians use UK pattern material, but what confirmed to me that the UKR dissidents were using genuine, actual British uniforms was the photo on the front of Friday's Telegraph - the fat militiaman (armed with a WWII vintage rifle) hadn't bothered to tuck in the pyjama-style draw-strings on his Dessie pattern trousers.


I always wondered what those otherwise useless draw-strings were for - they are aids to identification.

[MAINJAFAD]

The Royal Air Force badge and RAF Tac Flash are a bit of a giveaway as to the origin of that uniform (The badges are not on the uniform when issued, so its most likely been sold on E-bay).

[NutLoose]

What's pissing me off is as with Sky and now the BBC, is their damn reporters are bleating on about the crash site being a crime scene that needs protecting so as not to disturb evidence until it has been investigated, and they are all walking through it :ugh:

I realise that it's no longer a sterile site, but a bunch of press reporters, cameramen, sound engineers and what ever from each countries press corp wandering through the crash sites isn't exactly bloody helping..

[500N]

Not to mention TWO reporters from different stations - I think (CNN) and Australian ABC - filmed themselves rummaging through personal belongings in cases !!! (Although both corrected themselves when they realized what they were doing).

But, you would have thought they would have known better.


Edit
It was Sky news as noted by Nutloose below.

[NutLoose]

It was sky news, I was biting my lip over that one. The guy should be sacked.

[Tashengurt]

In fairness to the Sky news guy. He did realise and state on air that he shouldn't be doing it and stopped didn't he? Only seen edited clips on my phone so I stand to be corrected.


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[500N]

Yes, he did.

Still should have known better.


Here is the ABC one
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2700083/Outrage-ABC-reporter-SECOND-journalist-touch-MH17-victims-belongings-Sky-reporter-Colin-Brazier-sifted-luggage-crash-site.html

[melmothtw]

I realise that it's no longer a sterile site, but a bunch of press reporters, cameramen, sound engineers and what ever from each countries press corp wandering through the crash sites isn't exactly bloody helping..

I would suggest that the footage these news teams are gathering, especially of shrapnel damaged panels etc, will be 'bloody helpful' to the investigators. And don't forget, it is only because there are news teams there that the outside world knows that the black boxes were recovered by the separatists, preventing them from being spirited away to who knows where (Moscow) along with the bodies of the passengers.

To my mind, the news crews being there have been critical in preserving the scene for the international community.

[Wander00]

Misbehaviour, real or alleged, notwithstanding, had the press not been there when they were, IMHO we would have not got this far....................time will tell if it is all smoke and mirrors

[Boudreaux Bob]

Does anyone not know how "wrong" it is to be rifling through personal belongings of the Dead following a tragedy such as this?

The one thing it does do in a good way is to point out just how horrible a loss civilized society has suffered in every aspect of this shoot down of so many innocent human beings.

Not that it matters a bit to Putin and those others who are responsible for the Mass Murder of those aboard the Airliner.

[chopper2004]

I was at Farnborough for the first three days, so I can imagine the atmosphere inside the Halls, and out on static display on the Thursday, as soon as the news was broadcasted. If anyone was here on that day, did everything come to a grinding halt for the rest of the afternoon?

Having read 500N's link , especially the reader responses below the article were quite hmm vocal and shooting back at the DM for holding up double standards.

Chinook! Special Forces Flight In Peace and War is worth a read especially with the author's own experience dealing with Lockerbie in one chapter. Interesting to see through his eyes, the bit about the police van with its back doors swinging, leaving the crash site.

Noticed on the CH4 news last night, the film footage of the train - that one of the bags did not quite cover one victim and thankfully one of the Dutch investigators hastily amended the situation.

Here is an update by the Dutch MoD

Australische en Nederlandse militaire transportvliegtuigen voor terugkeer slachtoffers | Nieuwsbericht | Defensie.nl (http://www.defensie.nl/actueel/nieuws/2014/07/22/operatie-bring-them-home-in-gang-gezet)

as the RAAF C-17A is also present to help with the delicate tasking of repatriating.

[Ronald Reagan]

Perverted truth: How rebel mourning MH17 victims was turned into looter with trophy
http://rt.com/news/174332-ukraine-plane-photo-perverted/

[melmothtw]

'Perverted truth' and an RT link. Seems we're finally in agreement Ronald.

[Phil_R]

I thought it was rather inappropriate to describe the panel so unequivocally as being damaged by shrapnel. I mean, okay, yes, that's very much what it looks like, and he's probably right, but I would hesitate to preempt a more professional analysis.

Can't disintegrating jet engines also produce high velocity debris that can do similar things?

P

[melmothtw]

Can't disintegrating jet engines also produce high velocity debris that can do similar things?

Not to the cockpit, forward of the engines.



http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag380/garethjennings1/download_zpsc9e1be6c.jpg (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/garethjennings1/media/download_zpsc9e1be6c.jpg.html)

[melmothtw]

It was sky news, I was biting my lip over that one. The guy should be sacked.

Some context from the Guardian...

"Broadcasting live from a situation like that is fraught with dangers... This was a long, open-ended presentational broadcast, a technique pioneered on Sky News.

As Brazier explains it delivers insights that anchoring a piece from London simply cannot do...

One of the things that caught his eye in the suitcase was a pink drinking flask. His own six-year-old daughter Kitty has one exactly the same.

He picked it up and started to cry, something that wasn't evident during the broadcast.

This was a father, lost for a moment, comprehending the horror of what he was witnessing by recognising something familiar, something close to home. Not some cynical hack looking to take advantage.

He deserves to be criticised – but not castigated."

MH17: BBC veteran supports Sky News reporter over his 'error of judgment' | Media | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2014/jul/23/sky-news-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17?CMP=twt_gu)

[Phil_R]

Not to the cockpit, forward of the engines.


I see. That wasn't the part I saw, but yes, quite.

Even so, TV presenter preempting official enquiry? Wouldn't have done it.

[melmothtw]

To my mind, the Guardian quote shows the TV presenter acting like a human being and a father who has found himself in the middle of something too terrible to comprehend rather than trying to pre-empt the official enquiry, but that's just my opinion.

[Clockwork Mouse]

melmothtw

Yes, I agree.

[chopper2004]

Mysterious $30m reward offered for MH17 evidence - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11102292/Mysterious-30m-reward-offered-for-MH17-evidence.html)


cheers