Max All Up Weight AS350/EC120/R66/206

[Tailboom]

Hi Guys looking for some help with what maximum all up weight you can use in your machines just trying to compare against what we can use with full tanks in our Enstrom 480B.

I know some machines are lighter than others but I'm only looking for an average to compare. Looking to compare the weights to a new Bell 505
Many thanks

[Hughes500]

beware what you ask for !
EG MD 500 D mauw is 3000lbs internal 3550 with last 550 on a hook. I have never been able to get more than 3400 lbs off the ground even in a good wind. Mind you she weighs 1590 lbs empty so easily lifts full fuel 310 litres and 4 x 15 stone people !

[PhlyingGuy]

Agreed... Focus on useful load and not max gross. Fairly significant price differences between all those aircraft as well.

[Ascend Charlie]

Very few will allow full fuel and full pax seats. B206 with 91 gal, pilot plus 3, one empty seat. R22 full fuel, 2 scrawny pilots.

[BOBAKAT]

AS 350 B 3 = full tank, full passengers and some bags...:D

[John R81]

EC120 MTOW 1715KG without external hook. However the weight of the aircraft varies by fit:

Lux cabin?
Air con?
Pop-out floats?

My basic weight at zero fuel is 1145 leaving 570kg payload. Max 315kg fuel leaves just 255 for PAX so we are talking 3 people in a 5 seat machine - and no bags!

More often I fly 3-5 PAX and fuel under 200kg. Last trip (4x adults with bags) from Redhill to Aberdeen we could load to 220kg fuel, so stops in Humberside and then Cumbernauld (no fuel at Aberdeen site).

Looking at my log book, over the past six months almost all flights have been 1600+Kg and a number were MTOW. At the top-end weights she lifts into the hover OK but transition to flight must be gentle. If you stab at the right peddle or pull too much cyclic the regulator anticipates the need for additional power and adds fuel which will spike the torque. Even the very smallest over-torque is registered on the VMED and cannot be cancelled by the pilot. Then you get the bill for inspection / remedy!

Interestingly, this "spy in the cab" feature means that pilots are careful and she does not get over-torqued. I suppose that with machines using a less robust system there might be momentary over-torques that don't get noticed, or don't get reported if they are noticed, and you can never be as sure about the condition of the gearbox.

[PhlyingGuy]

Here's the useful load data that I've found out there:

R-66: 1400ishlbs.
505: 1500lbs.
EC-120B: 1590lbs.
AS350B3e: 2200ishlbs.

Of course... there are a lot of other factors... PRICE for one. Glass cockpit, FADEC, DOCs, cabin volume, what kits you have on (as JohnR81 mentioned), what altitudes you deal with (I'm assuming UK)... etc.

The 505 would probably be my choice for the best bang for your pound/euro out of these aircraft, but it all depends on what your planning to do with it.

[Soave_Pilot]

R66
Full Tank + 5 POB 170 lbs each you are legal.That will bring you to a hover at 90% TQ, ˜ sea level ˜ 32 degrees Celsius. Throw in the pax who was left out of the Jet Ranger in the baggage compartment and you may hit 100% :p :p

[Arrrj]

I would focus not on AUW but "how much can I carry".

R66 - 5 people, 3/4 fuel, OGE hover no worries. 120, Jetty etc...no way. B3e...different machine altogether - twice the price (to own and run).

505 - same motor as the 120...it all depends on how much stuff Bell jam into it to make it fly. I suspect similar performance to the 120...which is such a lovely looking machine, but a very poor performer (even in the hands of JohnR81...who is the 120 expert !). And the 505 boot (trunk ?) is about 1/4 of the 66.

I worked this out once (for a mission) the following. R66, 4 pax, 4 overnight bags, full fuel, 2 sets of golf sticks...off you go. That's pretty cool...and there are 500 of them flying around now.

Arrrj

[SilsoeSid]

and possibly not to focus totally on MAUW but to also look at the different RTOWs.
SS

[Efirmovich]

Yes and you could do the same mission in a Ford Mondeo estate......


No matter how you big it up its still an expensive Robinson !


E.

[Nubian]

BOBAKAT,

AS 350 B 3 = full tank, full passengers and some bags...:D

Well, yes, it will lift it in most cases depending on height and temp, but at ''full-full+bags'', you'll be between 150 and 250 Kg's over max internal gross weight (normal pax weight). Even with dual-hyd which it not very common. Off course it depends greatly where you're operating when it comes down to average pax weight, i.e. Asia VS. the rest of the world....;)

[Ian Corrigible]

And the 505 boot (trunk ?) is about 1/4 of the 66
Actually they're identical - both 18 cu. ft.

I/C

[Tailboom]

Went to Farnborough today and saw the 505 mock up, if half the Bell guys say is true, it's going to be some machine, their saying 125knts +, possibly 130knts with a usefull load of 1500+ lbs more likely to 1700/1800lbs and for $1million Dollars

[krypton_john]

Is there any 2 bladed machine in existence that goes that fast?

[chopjock]

Is there any 2 bladed machine in existence that goes that fast?

Bell 222 Bell 230 … Airwolf

[Bravo73]

Is there any 2 bladed machine in existence that goes that fast?

The Bell AH-1 Cobra could manage 149kts (with a VNE of 190kts): Bell AH-1 Cobra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_AH-1_Cobra#AH-1G_HueyCobra)

[Arrrj]

I/C,

Yep, the publication (s) says that they are the same (ish). The reality (well, for the mock up 505 anyway) is that there is a massive difference. In fact, we questioned the Bell rep...and he said "that's how it is". It was 1/4 the size.

The 505 is around $1.5 million with stuff that will let you fly...i.e. the "other" bits not included for "$1 million".

One does wonder what's true ? I suppose we will find out soon.

As I said, how will the 505 fly so well with the same motor as the 120 ? Which is almost useless.

PS - the 66 cruises at 130 knots. 65% torque.

All the best,
Arrrrj

[PhlyingGuy]

Yep, the publication (s) says that they are the same (ish). The reality (well, for the mock up 505 anyway) is that there is a massive difference. In fact, we questioned the Bell rep...and he said "that's how it is". It was 1/4 the size.

This is completely false. They're almost exactly the same size... for those that don't believe me, go look at them both side by side at the next trade show.

The 505 is around $1.5 million with stuff that will let you fly...i.e. the "other" bits not included for "$1 million".

For $1M you get the engine, seats, and the G1000 cockpit. Now compared to the R66/206B with steam gauges, what else do you need to "fly"? Go to 505 Aircraft Configurator (http://config.bh.com) and tell me what else you'll need? Maybe A/C and some of the additional avionics? I highly doubt you'll get to $1.5M with those kits... probably closer to $1.1M-$1.2M.

[Hughes500]

Arrrj
Bet you don't cruise at 130 kts at MAUW as in the question

[Tailboom]

Arrrj if what the Bell guys say is true it's not going to be good news for the R66, you'd be mad to buy it over the 66.
Before anyone says anything I really rate the R44 and the R66 and certainly enjoy flying the 44 almost from the very begining.

[Arrrj]

PhylingGuy,

I HAVE looked at both 66 and 505 boots (trunks) side by side and anyone with access to the internet can SEE that the mockup 505 and real 66 have significantly different size boots. There are pics on the web of 2 people sitting in the 66 boot, please post the same ones of the 505 ?

I wonder if you have actually seen the 505 ?

I have NOTHING against the 505, except the numbers are not "real" as the bloody thing has no flown yet. I hope it is good and flies really well. Why not ? We all like to fly nice machines, I hope it is a cracker. One of my mates has ordered one in Australia already, and no doubt I will get to fly it sooner than most. I look forward to it.

Pricing - my mates quote in AUD is $1.5 million plus 3% per year until built. That's double a 66.

So, sorry, not "blatantly false information"...anyone can check via the web.

Hughes 500

Yep, not MAUW, but 3 up, full fuel, and some other stuff...130 knots. This is well known, not just my experience. That said, I have flown 2 versions of the 66 that DO NOT even get to 130 knots...with nothing on board ! One does wonder why ? (No, that's not a rhetorical question, it's a real one !).

Tailboom

Be careful mate, praising the biggest selling helicopter brand in the world on prune can only bring you hate mail ! Facts do not count in this little battle.

PS - I don't care what it is that we fly, as long as it is fast, safe, powerful and able to be financed by us normal people. Oil sheiks, Russian oligarchs, DOTCOM billionaires etc are not included.

All the best,
Arrrj

[Hughes500]

Arrrj

If they are like a 500 I will tell you why. It is to do with chord balance on the blades plus weight of blade.have discovered on 500 blades that oem does not chord balance or weigh blades. Blades have been as much as 248 grams different in weight which means engineers have swept blades or tried to weight the hub which doesn't really work. This will sort out imbalance , however speed is a different thing. If chord balance is out then engineers will tab the blade to make it pitch up or down. This tabbing produces more drag. Recent example 500d with a mismatched set of blades had chord balance so far apart it was a joke max speed at 70 psi about 112 kts. Reprinted blades and chord balanced back to 130 kts ! Bet it is the same in your Robbins

[Arrrj]

Hughes 500,

Thanks for the information, I will pass it to a mate who owns a "slow" 66, no doubt you are correct, and he can get the MR adjusted and get his speed back.

Thanks
Arrrj

[PhlyingGuy]

Arrrj... First, you and I both agree that the numbers aren't "real" until it flies! And I have nothing against the R66 either... it's sold a crap load because of the price point. But Bell now supposedly has over 200 "orders"... so we'll see how this plays out.

Yes, I have seen the 505 in person and I have a good idea of what it could hold and I believe the 18 ft3. I have searched (and I can't believe it), but I cannot find an image that Bell or anyone else has posted of the baggage bay yet.

Here's an image of the R66 baggage bay that I found though. imgur: the simple image sharer (http://imgur.com/WrtZj7D) (I can't embed it for some reason)... which if you take the dimensions of 42*23*33 = 31878 = 18.4 f3.... which after you shrink it some more due to the unstandard nature it comes out to 18 ft3.

Now the 505 may be 18 ft3, but may have different dimensions in the build up.... maybe it's much wider and longer and not necessarily as high... or some other combination. Believable if you just look at this comparison http://www.uplink.com.au/media/Bell-505.jpg?

As for the price, I can't vouch for what your mates say, I just can't believe that Bell would publish around "a million bucks" with the base config and that sudden turn into 1.5... even with the AUD conversion.

[Ian Corrigible]

PhlyingGuy,

Just to point out, that's not an official image of the 505, but rather a PS job by R88 (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/517185-bell-505-jet-ranger-x-6.html#post8342137) and Tickle (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/517185-bell-505-jet-ranger-x-7.html#post8343968) as to how they think the aircraft should look.

The original 505 vs. R66 comparison image is here (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/517185-bell-505-jet-ranger-x-5.html#post8340884).

I/C

[PhlyingGuy]

Thanks Ian! Didn't even notice the skid gear difference when I looked at it.

[nigelh]

You are wrong on the price . I have ordered two and it is $1.075m which is not much more than the
R66 . When you allow for the fact that it has all L4 running kit plus a full glass cockpit I think it is incredible value !!!! I do admit that I hate Robinsons and never willingly fly in one !!!

[krypton_john]

I can post a pic of two people sitting in a B206 baggage hold if that is of interest - is it the same size as the 505 hold?

[Arrrj]

The 505 is AUD$1.3 million (apologies, not $1.5...lost in FX translation). Which is USD$1.07 (I have the contract in front of me), plus FX, + 3% for 3 years (min) until delivery.

I have actual photos of the 505 cargo hold, but need to load them to photo bucket (or such) to get them on here. It may calculate to be the same as a 66, but it is a completely different shape...very long and thin, I doubt it will be that useful and sure doesn't look anywhere near the 66. I guessed 1/3 the size, because that's what it looks like.

On the dedicated thread, there is a lot of comment on the 505, which may be of interest. As for the actual thread questions "MAUW" who knows ? Not even Bell at this stage.

Arrrj

PS _ Nigel, for a bloke who makes a lot of sense with your 109 comments (I have flown the type), you drop the ball when disrespecting Robbies ! 44 and 66 are good things to fly. (No idea about 22, never flown).

[23 Inches]

My Clipper 2 loaded up with full fuel, myself, wife, 6 yo daughter plus some bags is just under MAUW and cruises 110kts.

The 505 does sound interesting but I am not totally sold on the engine selection, I suppose time will tell.

I only have 10 hours in a R66, but every flight has impressed me, that machine has some performance alright ! :ok:

[PhlyingGuy]

Robinson has sold a lot of R44's for a reason!

Just out of curiosity... not being sold on the engine... does it have to do with the engine itself or Turbomeca's reputation for support?

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

I like the way people keep bashing the 120 and it's true when I first started flying them I hated it , but after a few hours and learning the best way to use it now I love it and would pick it over everything else in its class .

Let's not forget that the fuel tank on a 120 holds enough for 3 hours 20 minutes and you can fit as many people in the boot as you can in the seats , it's very
Pretty, it's Damn near silent when it flys past and you can pull past the red line the same you can anything else except the 120 will tell you when to lower the lever so you can keeps your eyes out the window ! You only need to call the engerneering if you ignore the horn and then only at the end of the day for some reason .

If money is not a consideration the it would be 350,120,505,206 and R66 never as its not a true 5 seater and it will probably fall apart in a strong wind

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

AND another thing a 12 yearly on an ec 120 costs about £60k or with everything you could think of to make it as good as new about £110k , how much is the 12 yearly on an R66 ?

[Hughes500]

crazy board how much for your module changes please ?

[Tailboom]

So Guys what would be the Heli you would buy if you had around £400/£500k and flew 3/4 people at any one time ?

[krypton_john]

Get a Jetbanger if you need baggage space and occasional 5th person or a 500D if you don't.

And you get to keep £100k in the bank.

[RVDT]

So Guys what would be the Heli you would buy if you had around £400/£500k and flew 3/4 people at any one time ?

A 350BA on short gear.

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

Hughes500

You pay about £250k for the engine every 15-19 years depending on condition ? Do R66 rotor blades last for 2400 hours like the other Robinson ? It's 20000 hrs for the blades on a 120 . That said the money argument might be a bit silly you buy what you can afford if there was no money issue then we would all be flying around in 429's

[23 Inches]

PhlyingGuy

I had some dealings with Turbomeca a few years ago and it was a slow and expensive process. Otherwise, the Arrius 2F is a good engine and you can get a barrier filter.

I have to agree with Arrrj, I can't see the Bell 505 getting 125kts cruise when VNE on an L4 is 130kts and cruise is 109kts and it's the same rotor system..?

[Hughes500]

Crazy

I am not a fan of any Robinson product. One customer had a 120 fcu overhaul £ 25 k which seems excessive v a 250 fcu which was £ 8k !!
Are gearbox modules quite expensive too ?
Love to see a set of blades last 20k in the UK corrosive environment !

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

Hughes500

Sorry mate I don't know what the internal gearbox parts cost you would have to speak to Airbus :) as for the blades don't forget modern helicopters have composite blades not metal and pig iron ;) .

Also been looking after one for 6 years now and it's has never had so much as a glitch , compared to the R44's and 500's I've looked after that will have at least one out of phase item go caput each year , that's only my experience mind

Cbs