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Max All Up Weight AS350/EC120/R66/206

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Max All Up Weight AS350/EC120/R66/206

Old 15th Jul 2014, 21:18
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Max All Up Weight AS350/EC120/R66/206

Hi Guys looking for some help with what maximum all up weight you can use in your machines just trying to compare against what we can use with full tanks in our Enstrom 480B.

I know some machines are lighter than others but I'm only looking for an average to compare. Looking to compare the weights to a new Bell 505
Many thanks
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Old 15th Jul 2014, 22:12
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beware what you ask for !
EG MD 500 D mauw is 3000lbs internal 3550 with last 550 on a hook. I have never been able to get more than 3400 lbs off the ground even in a good wind. Mind you she weighs 1590 lbs empty so easily lifts full fuel 310 litres and 4 x 15 stone people !
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Old 15th Jul 2014, 22:28
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Agreed... Focus on useful load and not max gross. Fairly significant price differences between all those aircraft as well.
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Old 16th Jul 2014, 06:02
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Very few will allow full fuel and full pax seats. B206 with 91 gal, pilot plus 3, one empty seat. R22 full fuel, 2 scrawny pilots.
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Old 16th Jul 2014, 13:14
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AS 350 B 3 = full tank, full passengers and some bags...
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Old 16th Jul 2014, 14:26
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EC120 MTOW 1715KG without external hook. However the weight of the aircraft varies by fit:

Lux cabin?
Air con?
Pop-out floats?

My basic weight at zero fuel is 1145 leaving 570kg payload. Max 315kg fuel leaves just 255 for PAX so we are talking 3 people in a 5 seat machine - and no bags!

More often I fly 3-5 PAX and fuel under 200kg. Last trip (4x adults with bags) from Redhill to Aberdeen we could load to 220kg fuel, so stops in Humberside and then Cumbernauld (no fuel at Aberdeen site).

Looking at my log book, over the past six months almost all flights have been 1600+Kg and a number were MTOW. At the top-end weights she lifts into the hover OK but transition to flight must be gentle. If you stab at the right peddle or pull too much cyclic the regulator anticipates the need for additional power and adds fuel which will spike the torque. Even the very smallest over-torque is registered on the VMED and cannot be cancelled by the pilot. Then you get the bill for inspection / remedy!

Interestingly, this "spy in the cab" feature means that pilots are careful and she does not get over-torqued. I suppose that with machines using a less robust system there might be momentary over-torques that don't get noticed, or don't get reported if they are noticed, and you can never be as sure about the condition of the gearbox.
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Old 16th Jul 2014, 16:03
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Here's the useful load data that I've found out there:

R-66: 1400ishlbs.
505: 1500lbs.
EC-120B: 1590lbs.
AS350B3e: 2200ishlbs.

Of course... there are a lot of other factors... PRICE for one. Glass cockpit, FADEC, DOCs, cabin volume, what kits you have on (as JohnR81 mentioned), what altitudes you deal with (I'm assuming UK)... etc.

The 505 would probably be my choice for the best bang for your pound/euro out of these aircraft, but it all depends on what your planning to do with it.

Last edited by PhlyingGuy; 16th Jul 2014 at 17:29.
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Old 16th Jul 2014, 23:44
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R66
Full Tank + 5 POB 170 lbs each you are legal.That will bring you to a hover at 90% TQ, ˜ sea level ˜ 32 degrees Celsius. Throw in the pax who was left out of the Jet Ranger in the baggage compartment and you may hit 100%
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Old 17th Jul 2014, 09:30
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I would focus not on AUW but "how much can I carry".

R66 - 5 people, 3/4 fuel, OGE hover no worries. 120, Jetty etc...no way. B3e...different machine altogether - twice the price (to own and run).

505 - same motor as the 120...it all depends on how much stuff Bell jam into it to make it fly. I suspect similar performance to the 120...which is such a lovely looking machine, but a very poor performer (even in the hands of JohnR81...who is the 120 expert !). And the 505 boot (trunk ?) is about 1/4 of the 66.

I worked this out once (for a mission) the following. R66, 4 pax, 4 overnight bags, full fuel, 2 sets of golf sticks...off you go. That's pretty cool...and there are 500 of them flying around now.

Arrrj
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Old 17th Jul 2014, 09:39
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and possibly not to focus totally on MAUW but to also look at the different RTOWs.
SS
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Old 17th Jul 2014, 09:40
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Yes and you could do the same mission in a Ford Mondeo estate......


No matter how you big it up its still an expensive Robinson !


E.
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Old 17th Jul 2014, 18:13
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BOBAKAT,

AS 350 B 3 = full tank, full passengers and some bags...
Well, yes, it will lift it in most cases depending on height and temp, but at ''full-full+bags'', you'll be between 150 and 250 Kg's over max internal gross weight (normal pax weight). Even with dual-hyd which it not very common. Off course it depends greatly where you're operating when it comes down to average pax weight, i.e. Asia VS. the rest of the world....
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Old 17th Jul 2014, 19:31
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Originally Posted by Arrrj (me hearty!)
And the 505 boot (trunk ?) is about 1/4 of the 66
Actually they're identical - both 18 cu. ft.

I/C
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Old 17th Jul 2014, 23:20
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Went to Farnborough today and saw the 505 mock up, if half the Bell guys say is true, it's going to be some machine, their saying 125knts +, possibly 130knts with a usefull load of 1500+ lbs more likely to 1700/1800lbs and for $1million Dollars
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 02:16
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Is there any 2 bladed machine in existence that goes that fast?
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 10:25
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Is there any 2 bladed machine in existence that goes that fast?
Bell 222 Bell 230 … Airwolf
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 10:25
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Originally Posted by krypton_john View Post
Is there any 2 bladed machine in existence that goes that fast?
The Bell AH-1 Cobra could manage 149kts (with a VNE of 190kts): Bell AH-1 Cobra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 11:52
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I/C,

Yep, the publication (s) says that they are the same (ish). The reality (well, for the mock up 505 anyway) is that there is a massive difference. In fact, we questioned the Bell rep...and he said "that's how it is". It was 1/4 the size.

The 505 is around $1.5 million with stuff that will let you fly...i.e. the "other" bits not included for "$1 million".

One does wonder what's true ? I suppose we will find out soon.

As I said, how will the 505 fly so well with the same motor as the 120 ? Which is almost useless.

PS - the 66 cruises at 130 knots. 65% torque.

All the best,
Arrrrj
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 13:44
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Blatantly false info...

Yep, the publication (s) says that they are the same (ish). The reality (well, for the mock up 505 anyway) is that there is a massive difference. In fact, we questioned the Bell rep...and he said "that's how it is". It was 1/4 the size.
This is completely false. They're almost exactly the same size... for those that don't believe me, go look at them both side by side at the next trade show.

The 505 is around $1.5 million with stuff that will let you fly...i.e. the "other" bits not included for "$1 million".
For $1M you get the engine, seats, and the G1000 cockpit. Now compared to the R66/206B with steam gauges, what else do you need to "fly"? Go to 505 Aircraft Configurator and tell me what else you'll need? Maybe A/C and some of the additional avionics? I highly doubt you'll get to $1.5M with those kits... probably closer to $1.1M-$1.2M.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 15:49
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Arrrj
Bet you don't cruise at 130 kts at MAUW as in the question
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