Severe Wake Turbulence Encounter Video

[Odai]

Hello,

Apologies if this has been posted before. Thought it would be helpful to share this video of a severe wake turbulence encounter in a C172 (first couple of minutes or so):

Severe Wake Turbulence, Near mid-air collision, iffy Wx - Trials of a student Pilot - POV - Flying - YouTube (http://youtu.be/BuGFIXxkyLU)

Regards

Odai.

[mixture]

That approach looks stupidly low and slow to me....

I suspect a case of two sides to every coin.

[OhNoCB]

It does say in the video that the instructor let her get low as part of a demo as she had been flying low approaches and dragging it in. I don't know if they saw the Dash and/or were warned of wake by ATC, if they were then I would say this was foolish on the instructors part. Either way it nearly ended badly and it reminds me of a recent crash in the UK in which an instructor allowed a student to get low on final to demo something whenever the donk stopped and they had to find a space for it in town short of the runway.

[eugegall]

It does look really low but without land and buildings I know water can make it appear you're more shallow than you are. Its a perspective thing.

I once flew into Bristol number 2 behind a Thomson 757. There were 3 miles separation between the two of us however the ATC asked me to orbit twice to allow a few more minutes between me and the wake.

I happily agreed and landed safe!!

[localflighteast]

Yes I was low.
No it wasn't my instructors fault, my being low wasn't a deliberate act on his part.

I nearly quit because of this incident ( which happened nearly 2 years ago).

We pulled this video from youtube for various reasons but it still lingers out there


I wish it'd die a quiet death tbh.

It'd be nice if we didn't play the blame game.

[John R81]

I doubt there is a pilot out there who has not got themselves into some kind of trouble either in training or shortly after getting their license. I thought the most dangerous time was actually around 300 hrs PIC - when you think you can do this, before you learn enough about how you can get into trouble.


Having watched your video, I would say that you are less likely than most to get into WT as you will be cautious - having experienced what it can do. Your care and attention on setting up the approach is likely to be better than many, and your decision making around weather / IMC risk is right on the button.


I would not worry about the video.


John

[localflighteast]

I really don't care about me. It happened. I did it. I learned from it.
I'm asking for some respect for my instructor.

Criticise my flying, whatever but when this video was first released some people were very judgemental towards someone who didn't have the opportunity to present their side.

This I deeply regret.

[mixture]

Yes I was low.
No it wasn't my instructors fault, my being low wasn't a deliberate act on his part.

It wasn't a deliberate act on his part ?

He was your INSTRUCTOR ! Surely he must have had more than enough experience to see what was happening and to tell you to sort yourself out much earlier in the approach ?

Maybe I'm in dreamland, but surely the job of an instructor is to teach and ingrain good habits. Sure by all means let a student learn from their mistakes if the student likes that sort of learning, but this is one scenario where the safety should have come first !

[eugegall]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

If there wasn't any wake turbulence this would have been a low but very normal approach and landing and we wouldn't be discussing this.

The instructor would have been well aware of the danger but being an invisible force it can be impossible to see.

My instructor would have let me continue my approach as this instructor did and then brief me afterwards what I could have done better next time.

When you get quite a way through the syllabus your instructor should take a back seat and let you make your own decisions. Its an important part of learning.

This wasn't anybody's fault and we should all learn from someone else's misfortune.

[mixture]

The instructor would have been well aware of the danger but being an invisible force it can be impossible to see.

Invisible force indeed, which is why you don't just let your student sit there and rack up further points on the risk grade by allowing them go in low and slow, reducing the number of recovery options from limited to pure luck.

When you get quite a way through the syllabus your instructor should take a back seat

"Back seat" or not, she wasn't P1 solo... so the instructor still bears ultimate responsibility for what went on in that flight !

She was very lucky no to be in a Traumahawk or something else that loves to drop a wing at the slightest opportunity.

Guess we have differing views, so I best leave it there....

[localflighteast]

I honestly don't know if replying to these posts makes it better or worse .

I'd really rather this video and thread died a death, so I think this will be my last word on this.

Many lapses in judgement, the worst of which may have been me allowing this video to be created in the first place. It puts a person in a position to be criticized without opportunity to defend themselves and creates a false impression perhaps of what transpired.

Every so often this video is going to emerge and while I'm OK with being doomed to have the same backlash headed my way everytime, I'm not OK with my instructor having to deal with it.

He deserves more than that.

Hell I was in the cockpit and still don't have a full handle on what happened. People watching a video sure don't

I was very naive in thinking that this video could help educate people on the dangers, I really should have know I was just inviting people to sit in judgement of a person who has done more for than you'll ever know.

[rjay259]

As long as you both have learnt from it and others can now learn from it then it is good for us all.

[effortless]

Local flight east

My flying days are over now but please permit me to make this comment. I am sorry that you wish your clip would die the death but be assured that it is an excellent lesson for many of us. It clearly demonstrates a situation that could kill any one of us. It was a clear illustration of something that most of us are only told about. I wish I had been shown this at the beginning of my flying life.

[tartare]

Good video Zoe - nothing embarrassing about that.
Many years ago I saw the aftermath of this wake turbulence accident in Wellington.
http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/1024.pdf
A 185 got caught in the wake of a previously departed RNZAF 727 and was rolled 90 degrees to the right before hitting the runway.
Miraculously both occupants survived.
And the pilot of the 185 in that case was an international airline captain no less.
Scary stuff.

[MyMeowCat]

As a relatively new pilot I'm kinda glad I saw that video. You can read about it all in books but unless you actually see it you don't really get the full understanding. I actually found that video quite helpful and we should be thankful of people who put up stuff like that rather than only when everything goes perfectly smooth.

[hegemon88]

Dear localflighteast,

I have been following your posts in the other threads, well done on soloing and pressing on with your learning to fly. Having had fears and inhibitions myself, I can relate, believe me.

You have been here long enough not to be surprised to see some posters jump to conclusions and occasionally being judgmental. I initially assumed that the OP posted the link having your permission to do that, knowing you etc. but now I suspect that is not the case. That's unfortunate. However, I thought that any YouTube video can be deleted by the uploader, any chance for that? Then, even if the links remain in cyberspace, they will lead nowhere.

I do not totally disagree with those who have a go at the instructor, not you. You were a private individual in the learning environment, he was/is a professional with certain expectations around his work.

Glad you moved on and decided to continue. Well done again.


/h88

[Andy_P]

I had a very similar thing happen to me, I think before I went solo. Had instructor next to me as well. It also scared me enough to take a few weeks off and reconsider my decision to continue my flight training.

My circumstances were slightly different though. We had to helicopters flying around the airport spraying chemicals for mosquito larvae. Pretty typical here in coastal Australia. I was on final at about 500 when I got an updraft from one of the choppers, which pushed me to high for the approach. I decided to go around. As I was doing so, I got a heap of rotor wash from the other chopper as it had landed to fill up with chemicals. The end result was the same as local flight east suffered, and resulted in the instructor taking the controls and me calling an end to the day.

I think its a bit rough to criticize the instructor, they are there to let you learn. The fact the instructor took control instinctively and sorted it out is testament to his/her skill.

[localflighteast]

just to address some issues and maybe people will understand where I am coming from

I shot the raw footage, I didn't create the final video, it isn't mine to remove or whatever.

I did give permission for my footage to be used in the youtube video initially.

The one person who wasn't asked or gave consent was the instructor.

Now do you see why I am embarrassed/ashamed/feel guilty/would rather the video died?

Not a good example of decision making on my part

[3 Point]

Hi Localflight,

This was undoubtedly a scary incident but I'm very glad to hear that you were able to move on and resume your flying training afterwards; best of luck with the rest of your flying career.

To those who have been critical of your instructor I'd say hold on a moment! Have you guys never made a mistake?!? Of course the instructor is there to keep you out of trouble but he is a human being flying an aeroplane, mistakes will happen! I imagine that you and he have discussed this incident and I'm sure he will have learned something from it. I hope he has put it behind him and moved on.

Biggest point of all is that I have learned from it and so have many others so well done for making it available; who knows how many people will eventually benefit.

To your instructor I'd say don't worry about small minded people who are so quick to criticise; often, the ones with the loudest voice are really not the most experienced or skilled individuals themselves. We all make mistakes and anyone who thinks they are immune from error is a dangerous pilot.

Keep flying and keep having fun!!

3 Point

[effortless]

I do not regret any mistakes I made or dangerous experiences I've had. The quite serious cock ups I made taught me a lot. I guess that the instructor feels the same. I would hire this instructor as he now really knows what he is talking about.

[18greens]

Localflight,

I would just like to say bravo and thankyou very much for allowing that footage to be shared. I'm certain it will cause someone one day to think and take an action that will avoid an accident.

I had no idea wake turbulence could be so vividly energetic.

If anyone said anything that wasn't in the spirit of a sharing exercise thats their issue not yours. Don't let them put you off. Too often we keep quiet about mistakes that we should share, and people get hurt as a result.

18

[Helicopterdriverguy]

Thank you for intionally sharing localflighteast.

I would like to continue to express the other's views that we all know about the effects of wake turbulence. But, to see first hand, the effect on the aircraft is a truly frightening spectacle as normally, the end result is an AAIB report.

So thanks, for showing new pilots like myself and many others what wake turbulence can actually do. It has engrained thoughtfulness to the effects in me at least.

[Bob S]

As a trainee PPL I would like to thank Localflighteast for sharing the video and I for one am now aware of what wake turbulence can do, having seen the effects in your video. Don't worry about the negative comments

[Brian Abraham]

Now do you see why I am embarrassed/ashamed/feel guilty/would rather the video died?

Not a good example of decision making on my part localflighteast, you do yourself a great disservice, aviators with tens of thousands of hours have made similar errors, and in some cases paid with their lives. Off the top of my head a DC-9 training flight comes to mind where all died as a result of a wake encounter.

Nor does it reflect poorly on your instructor, having the theory is all very well, but putting it into practice is another. An old saying, often you get the exam first and the lesson comes afterwards. On all counts, both of you have passed with flying colours.

Kudos too for sharing the video, and I would leave it up, as it's the greatest teaching tool there is. The very fact that you have put it out there someone may have learnt a very, very valuable lesson, and subsequently saved their bacon - and their pax.

That is a great website, I particularly like this one where the thought is that all the boxes had been ticked.

Scariest Take Off I've Ever Seen - Aircraft Performance and Personal Minimums - YouTube

PS: The very best of wishes for your continuing participation in flight.

[RatherBeFlying]

LFE, Thank you for sharing that video. I spent some time trying to spot the a/c that landed ahead of you. Likely it was taxiing back on the ramp.

When I flew SEPs at YYZ, my instructor was emphatic about staying above the glideslope used by the big iron and landing past where the big iron touched down. The presolo exams at the time were big on wake avoidance.

When a 747 that landed ahead of you is making a 135 degree turn to a taxiway, you also want to stay above the jet blast -- which can be felt even from well above the top of the fin;)

Lets just call this a cheap lesson. If that likely Q-400 had been a good sized Boeing....

[DeeCee]

Brian; not much to do with wake turbulence - more 'I won't do that again'.

I once landed with a R22 hovering to my right (wind fairly straight down the runway) and even then encountered turbulence that required enthusiastic manipulation of the controls. Quite exciting when flaring for the landing.