More non-uniform uniform!

[Lima Juliet]

Thought it was a while since we'd heard about aircrew brevets in the RAF until I read this in the briefing note at work:

The use of aircrew brevet badges on Service shirts has been considered and consistently rejected on both cost and utility grounds in the past. However, for those serving on a range of overseas appointments having routine contact with other Nation’s armed forces and with Embassy personnel, it was felt that some form of recognition of aircrew status would be of significant benefit. A range of enamel and cloth miniature badges were considered and it was decided that the most appropriate solution would be to use the RAF name badge format currently used by the SLT that includes the relevant aircrew insignia but without rank.

So there we go, one uniform for home and another for abroad...brilliant! :ugh:

Oh, it's obviously not worth recognising aircrew status anywhere else than in other Nation's air forces or in the local Embassy...more brilliance! :ugh:

Is the dress committee still run by stackers and DE&S?

LJ

[Onceapilot]

Thanks Leon, I'll get my badges sorted for my recall! :)

OAP

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

it was felt that some form of recognition of aircrew status would be of significant benefit
what's wrong with bloody great watches ?;)

[RAFEngO74to09]

Fox3,


You mean big watches with wings on ?


http://forums.watchuseek.com/attachments/f29/273131d1270403237-fs-debaufre-nav-b-wings-gold-pilot-watch-extra-strap-$375-debaufre-wings-10.jpg

[iRaven]

But it's OK to wear a brevet on a jumper, so why discriminate against the Summer in the UK? :}

Madness!

[iRaven]

Engo

Is that the one that Bruce Willis' dad hid up his jacksie in Pulp Fiction?

http://www.zuguide.com/image/Christopher-Walken-Pulp-Fiction.5.jpg

iRaven :ok:

[wg13_dummy]

I've always thought it a bit odd that CrabAir have such bizarre regulations concerning the wearing of flying brevets.

"has been considered and consistently rejected on both cost and utility grounds in the past".

What a total non-statement. As someone highlighted, this is probably due to CS, blunties and goat blowers making up the RAF dress committee. I'm surprised they've not made a 'Half Wing Pencil' brevet or an aggressive typewriter with wings. They'd no doubt sign that off.

I guess crab aircrew get around the regulation by just wearing flying suits where ever they go (why oh why wear flying suits for a 2 week HF course at Shriv??)

We pongos are a bit more relaxed when it comes to wearing brevets. As for cost and utility? Having a set of cloth wings with pin clasps on the back is cost effective and has utility. We can wear them with anything (all the ridiculous dress states we have) :D

[Lima Juliet]

Wg13 Dummy

We pongos are a bit more relaxed when it comes to wearing brevets. As for cost and utility? Having a set of cloth wings with pin clasps on the back is cost effective and has utility. We can wear them with anything (all the ridiculous dress states we have)

Promote that man immediately and put him on the committee!

LJ :D

[Pontius Navigator]

I acquired a RNZAF nav brevet in the mid-70s. They used to wear it with shirts. They also had a summer lightweight forage cap.

Anyway I sold the badge on eBay and it was bought by an Australian collector. Turned out the badge as from the 40s even.

They also had a lightweight plastic pac-a-mac raincoat in recognition that it actually rains in the tropics. Used to good effect in Ascension.

Yes, we get it wrong all the time.

Can anyone tell me what happened to the blue 'KD' at Lyneham in '84?

[RAFEngO74to09]

Why not have 58 different career field / rating pin badges like the USAF and be done with it - then nobody could complain they didn't have one and vote against it !

Badges of the United States Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badges_of_the_United_States_Air_Force)

[The B Word]

I don't see how a name badge with a brevet on it is ever going to crack it within Embassies and Foreign Air Forces - just look at the average competition!

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Observer/Columnist/Columnists/2012/2/25/1330190377457/Sacha-Baron-Cohen-004.jpg

[Wensleydale]

"Having a set of cloth wings with pin clasps on the back is cost effective and has utility"

Sounds more like a FOD hazard to me!

[The B Word]

I note the US scribblies' badge is suitably punchy!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/United_States_Air_Force_Manpower_%26_Personnel_Badge.svg

Do you think it's a paper aeroplane? :E

[Wensleydale]

The pilot's badge would have the earth revolving around him!

[RAFEngO74to09]

How about this one for the 20,000 cyber warriors in Cyber Command - note the comment "Cyberspace Operator Badge (This badge is equal in precedence to aviation badges.)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badges_of_the_United_States_Air_Force#mediaviewer/File:USAF_-_Cyberspace_Operator_Wings_Basic.png

[Onceapilot]

Wensley, Quote "The pilot's badge would have the earth revolving around him!" Quite correct:ok:.

OAP

[wg13_dummy]

"Sounds more like a FOD hazard to me!"

Err, gone are the days of flying in a woolly pully or shirt.......

[NutLoose]

No problem, and they'll tailor it to your needs

KEEP CALM IM A WING COMMANDER RAF MENS ARMY T SHIRT GIFT KC109 | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KEEP-CALM-IM-A-WING-COMMANDER-RAF-MENS-ARMY-T-SHIRT-GIFT-KC109-/270828307632)

[Wensleydale]

Err, gone are the days of flying in a woolly pully or shirt.......


yet personnel still go to aircraft manoeuvring areas and visit aircraft while wearing standard uniform. Why increase the risk - after all, you won't notice if the badge has gone because the hi-vis vest will be in the way!

[wg13_dummy]

"yet personnel still go to aircraft manoeuvring areas and visit aircraft while wearing standard uniform. Why increase the risk - after all, you won't notice if the badge has gone because the hi-vis vest will be in the way!"


Which is why anyone who is connected with aviation carries out a FOD and loose article check prior to and after visiting said aircraft areas. We do, do you?

I can understand you're trying to prove a point and almost justify why the RAF haven't gone down the route of pinning wings on shirts. I think its quite clear that the blunties have scuppered it and not some retro-Air Safety reasoning.

I'll suggest we all go to aircraft dispersals naked at our next Air Safety meeting....

[ShotOne]

As if pilots need badges to be identified,!

[Danny42C]

When I trained in the US Army Air Corps "Arnold" Schools in '42, I finished with a pair of their "dollar-silver" wings. These were in the form of a very substantial brooch. You could pin these on any form of their uniform (the USAF still has them). The ideal solution ?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/US_-_Aviation_Wings.png/300px-US_-_Aviation_Wings.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_-_Aviation_Wings.png)

Awarded by United States Armed Forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forces)

D.

[wg13_dummy]

Danny, thats exactly how my wings attach. I have a set of US Army metal wings (with their pin and clasp) and have my AAC cloth wings firmly and neatly stitched to the front of them!

[Surplus]

I found that the extra thickness of my wallet was a satisfactory reminder of my Aircrew status.

[Mr C Hinecap]

I think its quite clear that the blunties have scuppered it

Wah, wah, wah. Who is in charge of the RAF? Aircrew. Who are the Stn Cdrs? Mostly Aircrew. Don't try to blame someone else for the lack of shiny badges. It will be someone Aircrew mate who would be required to comment as a specialist in the area on clothing matters. Everyone knows who you are all the time anyway - you always make damned sure of that!

One of the delights of my 1st tour at Brize was seeing the cuddly old men sweating like paratroopers in a spelling test all summer - keeping their jumpers on so we could all see their brevets. Bless their issue socks.

[Whenurhappy]

What is the source of this alleged guidance on brevet name tags? It's certainly not crossed my desk yet. In Post nametags are not worn (although security passes are); representationally No 1s, No 5s, No 6 or 8 are worn + allowing the wearer to display brevets and medal ribbons. No 2s are not normally worn away from Post. Apparently.

[teeteringhead]

In current temperatures I'd like to see the "No 6 in UK" option addressed. It's increasingly frustrating (and sweaty :yuk:) to appear in ones No1s when pongo colleagues are in "warm weather" Service Dress. Er hello RAF - it's warm weather .....

You don't even have the option in Cyprus FFS, rather the more arcane: 3rd Monday in April until 3rd Monday in November, not of course to be confused with Gibraltar, which is 3rd Monday in May until 4th Monday in October.

You couldn't make it up.

NB. Forecast is for 26 C in Gib today .... same as Bristol, Barnstaple and London!!

[Willard Whyte]

I still have some concerns as to how (ex) Harrier pilots can let everyone know what they used to fly. Issue them a portable p.a. system?

http://www.cybermarket.co.uk/images/product/main/MA-202-Portable-PA-2.jpg

[John Botwood]

At 18 Group in the 60s, the civilian part of the comms centre complained that were "threatened" by the the fact that the RAF members wore their uniform whilst on duty.


The RAF contingent were ordered to wear civvies while on shift.


The civvies complained that they did not know the rank structure of the Comms Centre!


The RAF were ordered to wear an armband showing their rank.


That is all,


JohnB

[NutLoose]

Perhaps the RAF should invest in some cheap RAF wings branding irons, they could then brand qualified pilots across the forehead, thus ensuring they are future proofed against not getting noticed in the odd occasions such as Officer mess fire where one would not be able to distinguish them at the rally point due to possibly not having their wing emblazoned pyjama's on ... :p

Unfortunately these chaps do not seem to do the addition of wings

http://www.derek-rose.com/regimental-raf-pyjama-set-5.html

[Lima Juliet]

What is the source of this alleged guidance on brevet name tags?

A briefing note sent out by PSF yesterday.

Edit: i've just looked on Airspace and it's on there too. https://airspace.raf.mod.uk/airspaceLogon/alt/ You need to have a log in to look at it but it's hosted on the civvy internet.

[Mick Strigg]

Let us just remember that all Naval uniforms around the world are based on that of the Royal Navy when Britannia ruled the waves. Likewise the Air Forces of the world followed suit (pardon the pun), and copied the RAF uniform when it formed from the RNAS & RFC.

Therefore we should not be copying other countries with what they wear, but instead we should be encouraging them to follow us (again). Fat chance, I know!

[CoffmanStarter]

Leon ...

I think I have the perfect solution that not only satisfies the apparent predicament you outline in your OP ... but also keeps you in Good Books with SWMBO :E

http://pk.b5z.net/i/u/6022076/i/RAF_gold_brooch.JPG

Yours for a mere £864.00 @ 18ct Gold.

So that's the next Birthday/Christmas gift sorted ... making sure you don't get posted overseas or invited to a foreign Embassy in the meantime ... and then, in the future, with a quick rummage through the obligatory SWMBO trinket box ... one's Shirtsleeve Order also sorted :}

[Mick Strigg]

But Coffman, RAF wings aren't gold, they are an off-blue or off-silver colour, best described by the Gunnery Sgt in "An Officer & a Gentleman":

I don't know but I've been told,
Navy Wings are made of gold.
I don't know but it's been said,
Air Force Wings are made of lead!

[MPN11]

Could it be a cheaper, and possibly more practical, option to make all aircrew uniforms "a lighter shade of pale"? Then there would be no need for badges, patches, gro-bags or bling ... "They wear sky-blue."

Think of the hours/money saved in SE and elsewhere, by NOT creating numerous badges and velcro bling. "Real" aircrew, in their new sky-blue kit, would be identifiable from 500 yards, and worshipped accordingly. They might even be persuaded to go for a bath and wear everyday uniform again [occasionally], instead of living in their green gro-bags regardless of what they are doing. Surely a proper uniform is more comfortable than a boiler suit?

MPN11
(Chucked out of the Bar as D/PMC and i/c Distaff, accompanied by a real operational Sqn Cdr, for being in DPM at 2030 after an exercise (ENDEX 1900-ish) by a living-in single tiresome old scroat in Sports Jacket and slacks. The Bar was empty until then ... we retired to the Pigs Bar 6 feet away, with deference to his age.)
:cool: :p

[Wensleydale]

Surely a proper uniform is more comfortable than a boiler suit?

Irrelevant!! You have to pay for a uniform - the boiler suit is replaced free of charge. Which one would you wear out first? Its not as if aircrew get all that extra cash!

[NutLoose]

So what is the Ideal pilot uniform style ?

Big watch strapped over outer sleeve WW1 style?

Top button undone WW2 fighter pilot style, (regardless of whether your hauling pax or teaching space cadets on the weekend)

Wings on left breast, left arm and left side of back (just in case they missed them the first time.)

:p

[Mal Drop]

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose...

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/photoboris/ImAircrewFPN2.jpg

[BEagle]

Of course, if the whingers such as that tiresome Mover had worked harder at school, this thread would be largely irrelevant!

Nevertheless, I have to agree that some aircrew (mostly pointy-head FJ types) used to choose the daftest occasions at which to wear No 14 dress. For example, when attending the School of Fighter Confusion in Northumbria for JTIDS courses, some aircrew turned up in flying suits (....'ing miles from the nearest FJ aerodrome) and others chose to swelter in that god-awful prepschool uniform of V-necked pullover, shirt and tie in summer, just to show off their aircrew status.....:rolleyes:

Which was at least preferable to the ubiquitous combat pyjamas the rest of the RAF seems to spend its time wearing these days....:yuk:

[London Eye]

And the real bit of genius is the direction that the new name badge with brevet is to be worn on the right breast pocket because it is a name badge and name badges are worn on the right....


But why is it that name badges are worn on the right? :hmm:


You couldn't make it up! :ugh:

[Roland Pulfrew]

Which was at least preferable to the ubiquitous combat pyjamas the rest of the RAF seems to spend its time wearing these days....

The great advantage of combat pyjamas is you can wear wings on them!! :}

[Exascot]

Err, gone are the days of flying in a woolly pully or shirt.......

In 16 yrs, apart from flying training, I always flew in a shirt. :ok:

[The Curator]

The halyçon days of the 90's..... The venerable Tri Motor. Flying in blues....
South Atlantic Detachment. A 'very' new First Officer (Huge Grant lookalike) just about to press his trousers for the first flight to MPA. Lovely Stewardess offered to do his ironing for the duration of the Det. 'I like ironing Sir'.
'Oh thanks awfully' said young First Officer.
After 2 weeks, his trousers had been taken up by an inch and a half and taken in by 2 inches at the waist. Shirt buttons dutifully moved also. He assumed it was the copious amount of G and T.
Happy days. Time of my life...

[Brian 48nav]

Sounds like one of the guys who was on my lad's JP Course - he had dreams of being a film star and was going to call himself Luke Mallory :O.


If it is who I'm thinking of ( JM) I think he's a BA skipper now - nice bloke as I recall!

[Easy Street]

Some branches already have insignia on No 2 shirts - Regt, RAFP, docs, dentists, Padres. No one worries about that being divisive. What's the big deal?

[The B Word]

Easy

How about "Fast Jet Aircrew*" rank slides? :ok:

(* other aircraft types are available)

B Word

[Mal Drop]

I saw 'Tactical Admin Wing' slides on DPM Kit in Riyadh during the 1991 Gulf War - I kid you not. The look on a scribbly Flt Sgt's face when I handed over my Pay Book (drawn as part of the explody holiday go-pack of that halcyon era) left me in no doubt that dealing with the filthy dirty aircrew was taking the edge right off his day.

[Party Animal]

Quite fancy a silk cravat in RAF colours myself, to be worn with open necked shirt in No.2 uniform - but only for aircrew obviously! ;)

[teeteringhead]

Party Animal

:ok:

[downsizer]

You gotta love the white mans problems on here sometimes....:E

[ValMORNA]

Quoting P.A.
Quite fancy a silk cravat in RAF colours myself, to be worn with open necked shirt in No.2 uniform - but only for aircrew obviously!


Sorry to be a party pooper, but I still have mine - 1950s era.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Quite fancy a silk cravat in RAF colours myself, to be worn with open necked shirt in No.2 uniform - but only for aircrew obviously!

Party Animal, here you go (http://www.regimentalshop.com/shop/products/127-Regimental-Cravats/738-Royal-Air-Force-Silk-Cravat/) (other vendors of neck apparel are available). I look forward to our next meeting!!

[BEagle]

Cravats? Sounds rather Terry-Thomas to me:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/TT_zps7df9f135.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/TT_zps7df9f135.jpg.html)

"I say, I say, I say. Ding dong....hello, my dear.....!"

[teeteringhead]

"I say, I say, I say. Ding dong....hello, my dear.....!" ... but is not the "ding dong" more Leslie Phillips??

Although Phillips L was never RAF - DLI in the war and -of course - RN with HMS Troutbridge.

Still doin' well - he got married again last Christmas - him 89 - she 50! :eek:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/12/20/article-2527036-1A38955900000578-465_634x859.jpg

[BEagle]

I wish the old chap well - his previous wife of 29 years of marriage took her own life under the most tragic of circumstances.

And yes, 'ding dong' is indeed more Leslie Phillips than Terry-Thomas.

[teeteringhead]

I wish the old chap well - his previous wife of 29 years of marriage took her own life under the most tragic of circumstances.

... and ISTR another ex died tragically - was it in a fire?

[Archimedes]

Yes, his first wife, although they had been divorced for over 10 years at the time of her death. IIRC, he was overseas at the time and didn't return for the funeral, causing much angst with his children.

[woptb]

Of course, if the whingers such as that tiresome Mover had worked harder at school, this thread would be largely irrelevant
You don't require wings to demontrate your credentials :rolleyes:

[Mr C Hinecap]

if the whingers such as that tiresome Mover had worked harder at school
I do hope the old bugger aimed that at me. I was a member of the same Mess, dined at the same dining nights and have never, ever had any desire at all to fly aircraft. I tried it once, it was OK but wouldn't really hold my interest for very long at all.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

Jenkins;

Debden?


Aaron.

[Pontius Navigator]

You don't require wings to demontrate your credentials :rolleyes:

That's what hands are for.