Emirates Airlines Joining

[FlightDirector7]

Hello,

I just wanted anyone's opinion and/or feedback on whether one should make the move to Emirates airlines since I have been recruited successfully ? In particular I would love the opinion of guys already in EK !

I am currently PIC On A320 with 2000 hours PIC on type and almost 5000 hours total time. After having completed the EK selection process I am being selected for the A330 fleet. I am also aware the fleet could change by the time one actually joins, so no idea whether it will be A380, B777 or A330/340. Of course the entire package in the form of tax free salary, company accommodation, education allowances and so on are attractive. I have also considered the move to Dubai and am comfortable with adjusting with the lifestyle as it is similar to where I come from.

The toughest decision for me yet has been to consider leaving my command and I'm not sure what is the command upgrade scene in EK going forward.

Is the move wise ?

Cheers

[L337]

Far more serious, and unforgivable, is that you have posted in the wrong section...

[SOPS]

Read the ME section re upgrades.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Emirates Airlines Joining


More to the point, Emirates Airlines are joining what?
Basic five yr old sentence construction at fault perhaps?

:(

[Luke SkyToddler]

You have "almost" 5000 TT, and 2000 A320 command??!! :ooh::ooh:

They sure do things differently in India ...

[Eau de Boeing]

And Englishe Level 6 too no doubt.........

[airbusgirl66]

By all means please come join the 330 fleet…everyone knows it is by far the best fleet to be on. Interesting layovers and many turn trips available. In fact, the 330 fleet has the most trips to India. So should you be lonesome for home…you'll get to go there A LOT!

[JammedStab]

What if you Have plenty of Boeing time and no Airbus time but want the A380. Seems like a reasonable thing doesn't it.

[yardman]

FD7
This is obviously a very important decision for you and you should consider all of the potential implications before making a decision.

Regarding quality of life on the 330. It's not great at the moment with limited layovers and lots of night turnaround flights. As you said, things can change but planning for the worst case helps in managing expectations. It is possible that you could be stuck on the 330 until the end which is supposed to be around 2017. Then you'll probably be sent to to the A380 fleet, which is a great place to be. However, at the moment you need 2500 on type to be eligible for a 380 command. We are talking potentially many years before you get back to the left seat based on the path outlined.

EK isn't a terrible company to work for. It's gotten a lot worse recently and probably will decline further in the future. But there are definitely worse places to work out there. The bottom line is that your decision to stay or join EK is a personal one and nobody can make that decision for you. If you're happy where you are and your airline is stable with good career prospects then perhaps you should stay. If the opposite is true and you don't mind dealing with some of the possibilities I've mentioned above, then by all means come.

Good luck in your choice whichever way it goes. Just make sure that your decision is made with your eyes wide open so that the regrets will be minimized down the road.

[ironbutt57]

Always ask yourself the question.."where will that put me in 10 years"...

[777boyindubai]

Yardman's comments are spot on.

[ekwhistleblower]

Great thread, one question followed by 6 trolls spewing abuse then a decent answer. Here is the skinny on EK.

The package appears attractive from outside but Dubai is a very expensive city to live in. I joined a long time ago. At that time the allowances covered the costs of life reasonably well, since then they have all deteriorated. Working conditions have been changed and every time productivity has been increased it has not resulted in any improved remuneration. The changes are always hidden using subterfuge rather than manning up and telling the pilot group directly. Presently we are already over a month past the pay review date with no news.

Dubai though is a bigger factor, Ironbutt is spot on, don't just consider the career, consider the whole picture. Most expats feel a pull towards their family when they 'have' to leave the sandpit. From then on it can be a tedious place to live with your heart and loved ones elsewhere and insufficient options available to escape.

Bottom line: Conditions have never improved, command times have never got shorter but you will get a nice new pilot's bag on joining.

[FlyMD]

As mentioned above, EK is still one of the better deals around when you consider all factors.

Just on operational "gotcha", especially on the 330 and 777 fleets. If you are unlucky enough to lose 2 engines in flight, do not be fooled into thinking that your APU is already running: that high-pitched whine you are still hearing is your cockpit colleague still going on about his last pay review.... :hmm:

[PositiveRate876]

Since you've already attended the selection process and have been assigned a course, it is a bit late for this thread.


It seems you've already made up your mind.


Coming from India, you will feel right at home in Dubai, although the costs of living are significantly higher and increasing rapidly. The company's admin structure, policies, bureaucracy and user interface are also very typical of the region and will be a frustration to only those coming from the West.


The A330 fleet is used mostly on Middle East turnarounds during the day, and India and Pakistan turnarounds during the night. Expect to fly around 600-700 hours a year, although with only 7-8 days off a month.


I would estimate that you could see the left seat again around the middle to late part of next decade.


Good luck with your decision.

[vfenext]

with 5000hrs TT you will be one of the most inexperienced FO's in the company. 5000 just about gets you a PPL in EK. Expect 6 to 7 years to command and don't expect it to be on a 330 or 340.

[Emma Royds]

FlightDirector7

Firstly you will not be very inexperienced in EK with your total hours. Our recruitment minima (as you know) are a lot lower than 5K total, so I would take that with a pinch of salt.

If you are on your own with no family then it could be worth it but to give up a 320 command and move the family over for a RHS 330 is (in my view at least) not worth it - all things considered. Especially if the company doesn't address the cost of living in Dubai and reward us accordingly. Bear in mind that you will be stuck on a F/Os salary for a good few years.

Don't move just for the sake of getting widebody time as the 330 will be doing flying that will probably be similar to what you are doing at the moment.

** Edited to say that based on the latest pay review that was just announced... the signs for the future don't look good. **

[de facto]

You have "almost" 5000 TT, and 2000 A320 command??!!

They sure do things differently in India ...

And so do they in many other places such as europe...I and many more were one of them:E

[BANANASBANANAS]

Never give up your command once you have it. I would suggest staying where you are for another 5 years or so, then gambling that EK are offering DEC positions again.

[TransitCheck]

Joining Emirates right now is possibly one of the dumbest moves that you could make.

You have guys who have been here for years warning you about the situation here. You have announcements BY THE COMPANY YOU WANT TO WORK FOR that display their desperation to get people to remain here....ie increasing the bond to $45000/5 years.

Enjoy your command in India....there is nothing like going to work and flying with your favorite captain every day.

[JAARule]

Now that is funny.

[masalama]

Yardman sums it best.:ok:It is a personal decision and all the best with that. Do not base your decision to move solely on the view of some of our "professional" pilot colleagues here.

Some pilots have moved to the ME from first world nations where having labour unions or minimum wage rules and complete freedom of expression are not given a second thought to. They made the decision to move purely on the widebody/time to command and the attractive brochure and interview process. When things haven't gone the way it was planned and the fizz dissipates from the fizzy babblech, frustration and angst seeps in.

You have lived in India and survived:) , got your command on the 320 possibly with a low cost carrier and 33 years old. Talk to relatives/friends who live there about life in Dubai and things your wife and kid(s)? needs like jobs,school, housing etc. Remember , it's their country so be prepared to follow their rules , making the move from India is much less a culture shock for you and your family than say someone from US/AUS/Europe .

If command comes again in 10 years as some have said , you will be 43 with a total time of 11000 hours and good narrow body and widebody experience , is that really that bad? EK isn't perfect but please show me a perfect airline to work for in India , I'm readying up my CV:E.
It's your decision to make that won't come very often and all the best:ok:

On a lighter note, here's an awesome video on our passengers haha
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xROVD8r32Lc

Masalama.

[cerbus]

There are plenty of better options in the world and even in the Middle East now. Think long and hard before you commit to Emirates.
10 years to command, runaway inflation and management that laughs at how stupid and gullible it's pilots are. These are just some of the items you will have to put up with at EK. All of this just to fly a Widebody? Yes there are plenty of better options for you.

[Gutter Airways]

If the location of the original poster didn't say India, they would have got a much better response.

Highlights something I've seen for a while on these forums and in the region - plenty of narrow minded expats in EK and the Middle East. Reaping the rewards of the region but holding deep rooted animosity towards anyone not of their own kind. Such people are an embarrassment to our profession.

Makes you reconsider the meaning of 'educated'.

[JAYTO]

"Reaping the Rewards".

I believe I have heard that phrase used before.

Lol.


Jayto.

[TransitCheck]

Gutter maybe you are the one with the issue. If the guy can pass the selection process here, which he did, then he is on a level playing field with the rest of us no matter where he is from.

He asked about joining EK. We gave our honest opinions. It's not a secret that people are upset with the downward slide of T&C here at EK. If anything, we are showing the original poster the utmost respect by trying to give him honest information that will help him make HIS ultimate decision.

[SuckItUp]

Ahhhhhhh! That video was awesome! Laughter is always the best cure.


Here's another that will give possible new joiners a glimpse at what to expect on the roads in "the pit"!!!


Super Scooter Driver - Funny Accident Expert (2014) [By http://waplovers.in And http://wapclubs.in] - YouTube


:}

[kirungi1]

SuckitUp

:D Hilarious...good stuff!

[Emma Royds]

If we all came to the Gulf with the aim of staying here till we retire then there wouldn't be any rush for the LHS. However the minority of us probably foresee themselves staying here until they retire and because of that, time to command is very much relevant, no matter how old you are.

When looking at this in the cold light of day, a command means more money and with that means being able to reach your financial goals sooner. This is of far more importance as an expat and especially so if you plan to move back home as soon as the kitty reaches a certain level.

Don't have a dig at the youngsters that may express an element of displeasure at having to wait a lot longer for a command. Maybe it is their aim to be mortgage free back at home by the time they are 40 (for example) and an extended spell in the RHS will make this harder to achieve.

[eldee5]

Flight Director,


First off, congratulations on passing the EK interview process. It is a very challenging one, and your hard work paid off. In light of this important decision, I will try to shed a different light on your predicament.


I worked at EK for three years and enjoyed it. You will find most people you fly with to be very pleasant and easy going. Training has gotten a lot better. Most of my experience has been quiet enjoyable. The training department recently put an effort in hiring good guys and getting rid of some of the bad apples. Most instructors are there because they enjoy teaching and it shows. The destinations are fun and I would expect you to transition over to the 380 relatively soon, so don't sweat the 330.


Some of the negatives are mentioned in this thread. In all fairness they are relatively accurate.


So, why join Emirates? It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish. I personally enjoyed it because EK was a means to an end. Large national carriers, like the one I am currently employed at, are extremely competitive to get into. I had plenty of experience flying domestic routes but needed that edge in order to be truly marketable. EK gave me that. Great lucrative flying jobs are few and far between. Just getting invited for an interview for some of them is like trying to catch a fly with chopsticks.


You have all the PIC turbine time you need. Your resume is already solid. Now all you have to do is pad it with some international flying experience in heavies. Do this for couple years, and next thing you know you’ll be ahead of the pack. Good for you for taking the initiative to give EK a try. If you are judicious, you will see that in the end, joining was probably the best thing for your career.


As I did, stay there for a little while and enjoy it for what it is. Then when you have enough experience, doors will open up for you, and the hand you’ll be dealt will be much nicer. By rising above the negativity, being smart, and capitalizing on all the great things Emirates has to offer, you will see that you will enjoy your time in Dubai. You can look at it like an extended paid vacation. You might even miss it a bit after you leave. I know I do.

[harry the cod]

eldee5

Don't need to give the airline, unless you want to, but are you now with a US operator? Hope all is working out for you. Would be interested to hear how you compare present with what you've left.

Harry

[CaptainChipotle]

Just guessing here, but a US major... ...work rules, MINIMUM days off, not MAXIMUM, no available days, once off reserve never on reserve again, seniority...

A little less $$ to start with but cheaper living in the states VS massive inflation in UAE...

Still guessing, but it must be NIGHT AND DAY from EK.

Congrats Eldee, I hope to be junior to you one day.

[eldee5]

Harry, I'm with the big D, based in ATL for now. For once in a very long time, I feel at peace ;-)

[gl69]

Eldee you made the right choice hands down. You will not look back at all.
There is no comparison between the US and EK. The biggest difference is the tremendous weight of stress and fatigue lifted off your shoulders, weight you didn't even know you were carrying around until you leave the sand.
Enjoy the Big D. That is probably the best US operator to fly for right now. The hardest part of your job will be getting use to all the contract terms and work rules but you won't be doing much working as in flying. Congrats! Hopefully many more Yanks will be joining you and leaving Emirates.

[kirungi1]

If I can be as careful as I possibly can with this one and without judging but only trying to understand; Yes, there are no arguments about EK Vs US legacy, cultural shocks, bueller, bueller........, in a wider context is it a relief gained (personally) or an opportunity lost of extending that legacy to EK and indeed the Gulf region in a long run?
There is credible argument on another thread where folks still struggle with say ASR's for an example (harry the cod is working minds and flat out on this). It's also unarguable that aviation is advanced in the US through history than the Gulf region. This region would do with more professionals like yourself who can flexibly discern between good and bad through say confidential reports et la.
If satisfaction is born from consistently serving others well and in a long run, is it a relief or an opportunity lost that it had to be the bigD at this point in your career?

[vfenext]

Was that supposed to be in english?

[kirungi1]

vfenext

It's a mixture of both, accept my apologies, but I'm satisfied that eldee5 and others will have the ability to understand the principle and the margins, and I had to be very careful (another way to skin a cat!)

[fatbus]

So does all this talk about the US carriers mean that any US pilot that stays at EK is stupid to do so? Let's put it this way, the US legacy carries are not the only game in town. If you are hell bent on returning home that's great but don't try to sell your decision on other people, just do it for yourself. BTW , how many EK Capt's returning to the US compared to FOs? You might be shocked at the numbers, meaning not as many as you think.

Ps you have to realize it makes no difference at all to me and if all US pilots went back to the states I probably wouldn't notice, sorry.

[TransitCheck]

Sorry Kirungi, I am with VfeNext......I have no idea what you are trying to say in your post.

[montencee]

His/her posts read like a google translate. I think it might be someones wife who's trying to join in.

[eldee5]

"So does all this talk about the US carriers mean that any US pilot that stays at EK is stupid to do so?"

Fatbus, this is absolutely not what I was trying to say. I was only answering the post. There is unequivocally nothing wrong with working at Emirates, should one choose to do so. It's all about choice. EK has a special place in my heart, it really does.

I, for my part, left EK and joined the big D specifically because of the retirement schedule and the seniority structure of the airline. 40% of their pilots will be gone in 10 years. Being in my mid 30s, it was a logical choice. It was not necessarily an easy one. But then again, home is where you heart is.

I would have most certainly found happiness continuing working and living in Dubai. But coming back to the States, and getting hired on at a legacy was the right thing to do for me. Other people have different priorities, and that's totally cool.

[kirungi1]

Folks wouldn't comprehend #37 (lateral thinking), so I will be direct. Your last post,#43, is very leading and your reasons are clear but my question is; Wouldn't you miss the challenge of taking the EK project (Hello Tomorrow) to another level to pitch the big D & others for that matter?
I'm only asking to understand and not to judge ;)

[kirungi1]

His/her posts read like a google translate. I think it might be someones wife who's trying to join in.

EK has since had a couple of female drivers so the reverse in the quote could/would hold :O

[Capt. Flamingo]

Are you in charge of writing the OM-As by any chance?

[cerbus]

"Does that mean any US pilot that stays at Emirates is stupid?"

Fatbus why would you stay at Emirates when you can go to a major airline?
93 hours a month vs 75 hours with good unions, good ATC and a government agency that looks out for the pilots plus numerous other benefits in leaving.
So I wouldn't call someone stupid for staying but I would ask for their reasons for a better understanding and in case I was missing something.

[fatbus]

Maybe there is some American pilots that could respond to that. I'll just keep my mouth shut on this one.

[Likeitis]

I would have a hard time understanding any American under 45 YO not taking or shooting for a position with DL, AA or UA. Hell I know 3 year FO at jetBlue who will make $155k this year. I've seen his pay slip. He works his tail off by choice but isn't working any harder than a EK pilot. When you see some guys getting wide body slots in year two and the upgrades continue to come quicker and quicker it really is unprecedented for the last 30 years.

You throw in a union, FAA, great ATC, buffalo wings, NCAA football and never hearing mam/sir ever again and the decision obvious.

Lastly just look at the profit share these guys are getting. Astounding.

[gl69]

Wait a minute Emirates got 3 weeks bonus for 93 hours a month while Delta got $40,000 for 75 hours a month.
My brother is a 777 FO at Delta and makes almost $200 an hour. That is considerably more than me and I am a 777 captain. When you include everything like work rules and all the goodies that goes with a major airline every American should not even be considering leaving. They should have their applications in and be ready to go.
What are you going to accomplish by staying at emirates? An early funeral?

[fliion]

I'll take it in on - on Fattys behalf.

Returning is not on for everyone, the biggest discriminator amongst my LHS mid 40's colleagues is age. Just don't want to uproot Fam from a good school as they are closer to college than the 30's FOs kids or single dudes. We also enjoy our life and friends here.

My buddy made $202k (green slippin') last year as a 7 yr FO MD88 ATL at Big D. He's in his 30s and cannot even comprehend some of the stuff I tell him - steely wheelies, monthly hours, Flt ops culture etc.

That said he understands that wide body command is perhaps more valuable than we give it credit. Times change quickly for the worse as we have seen over the years. This is perhaps the most dangerous geo-politically it has felt since 9-11. They will change again. Nigeria just declared a state of emergency - Ebola could get VERY nasty. I remember SARS, wasn't pretty and it directly affected my career.

For my generation, not near as many going back as alluded to. We know the devil we're dealing with, kids wife content, money going in the bank - to the young whippers like Eldee...
A no brainer.

f.

[Panther 88]

Good post f. Look at a position at a legacy as a career. Look at a position at EK as a means to an end. I would say age 45 is the max for returning. That is still a 20 year career. Not all Americans have the option of getting hired at the legacies right now. Might be a drink drive conviction years ago, no college degree (why a reqmnt, who knows), or other skeletons. Or some May have ego issues after being a captain on a 777 or 330/340 and couldn't sit in the right seat of a narrow body.

I will say this, if nonAmerican pilots had the option to return to their home countries and fly for the likes of the US legacies, with the future that appears to await them, I doubt many would remain in DXB. Tax issues and security would be just about the only reasons. Just my opinion.

[gl69]

While it is true that not too many Americans have left Emirates in the numbers the company is fearing I say give it time. As I said in a previous post my old company has over 200 Emirates pilots that have applied to join a US major. They only started hiring in Feb so let's just wait and see how many pilots have left Emirates this time next year.
Even if "only" half leave that would be very troubling for Emirates especially when they are having great difficulty recruiting qualified pilots. When you ask around almost everyone agrees that they can not go lower than 2000 flying hours.
So stay tuned.

[Calmcavok]

The minimums for recruitment are higher than 2000 hours. They haven't gone that low. Yet.

Requirements for the Position of First Officer

- A minimum of 4000 hours total flying time (may include 25% P3 or FEO time to a max of 500 hours)
- A minimum of 2000 hours multi-crew, multi-engine jet aircraft (P3 time cannot be used for this requirement).
OR
- A minimum of 2500 hours total flying time on a modern commercial multi-engine, multi-crew aircraft jet (P3 time cannot be used for this requirement)


The 2000 hours mentioned is as an element of the 4000 total.

[gl69]

But if a Ryan Air pilot has 2005 total hours all on a 737 can he get hired?
I know for a fact not too many recent hires have over 4000 flying hours.
The last two criteria seem to contradict themselves. Is it 2500 or 2000 flying hours?

[flyer19832007]

The last two criteria seem to contradict themselves. Is it 2500 or 2000 flying hours?

Expanding on what calmcavok has already posted....

gl69, they are two separate criteria altogether. I don't mean to point out the obvious but the "OR" in the description should have clarified this.

The criteria are 4000 total time of which 2000 must be on a multi-engine jet.
OR 2500 on a multi-engine jet.

So in other words, a Ryanair (or any other Airline which only operate Jet Aicraft), those pilots will likely reach 2500 on a multi-jet but may only have 2700 hours total time. (I'm talking about those that have undertaken a zero to hero course with minimal previous flying experience).

But on the other hand, take someone who has lots of experience, say 2000 hours on a turbo-prop aircraft, but then has recently moved onto a jet....they need 4000 hours total time, to also include 2000 hours on a multi engine jet as part of the 4000 total.

Having said that, in the past when they needed lots of pilots, you could be hired by them with less than the requirements, but could only join once you had the hours mentioned above. Not any more that I am aware of.

[White Knight]

OR 2500 on a multi-engine jet.

This was directed at 737/320 family pilots - in other words not Embraer guys or similar!

[FLY BY WIRE]

Would any of you EK guys say that direct entry commands would be likely in the future at Emirates?
Thanks,
FBY

[Schnowzer]

Absolutely. They are working on the new DEC contract at the moment. To make it attractive they are introducing a few new measures. The talk is that there will not be a new pay scale so it will be other parts of the package to be adapted:

No factoring; 84 hr Productivity Limit
Removal from the bid of days off restrictions
DECs put on a 3 month rotating bid with no reserve
Increased housing allowance
2 weeks extra leave/year
No restrictions on roster compression

From what I understand it is an attempt to create a commuting package whilst retaining adequate pay and remuneration.

[Mr Good Cat]

:8

Hee-hee.

That was quite funny and I laughed out loud.

However, the question asked was genuine and deserves a fair answer.

Thee will be no requirement for DECs at any point in at least the next 10 years, as the expansion has (and will continue to) slow down as the final fleet numbers are revised.

There are many, many experienced FOs on the list who will be in line to take their place over the next 5 years.

Most new joiner FOs are low on hours but by the time their command comes around in approx. 10 years they will easily be qualified.

My advice would be to try a short-haul command down the road at the national carrier in Abu Dhabi... But then, why would you leave a short-haul command at home to come to the Middle East where life is much harder and the money probably not much better (especially if you're not on the long-haul left seat).

Hope this helps. Please have patience with most of the posters on this board as they are hot and bothered ;)

:ok:

[Schnowzer]

Mr GC,

If the 2 weeks extra leave is considered to be over the 30 day guarantee we'd almost be back to 2002 with the "new" package. :ooh:

[FLY BY WIRE]

Thanks Mr Good Cat for your advice. I must admit Schnowser had me going for a second because from outside, all you hear about is Emirates vast order requirements so naturally you think that they might want experienced captains at some point.
I'm really trying to get an insight into Emirates because on the face of it they look to be an extremely modern and growing airline in a growth sector of the World, with good backing and future opportunities. Something it seems is sadly lacking at my Airline looking forward.
I'm a UK wide-body Airbus captain with over 12,000 hours, so although I'm not unhappy where I am, things are changing here (not in a good way) and it might be time for something new. (Even a move to the RHS if it was with a good company, and wasn't for too long).

Emirates also appeals because it's not hugely far from home than say a Far Eastern carrier, and seems (from what I can gather) to have an extremely multicultural workforce and a company ethos that being largely Expat, is supportive of a wide variety of expat pilots, rather than a cultural 'them vs us' that I understand, can be the case in a Far Eastern culture for the Westerner.

People generally are more motivated to post when they don't like something, so the large amount of negative posts and the odd blog I suspect don't tell the whole story. I'm also aware that there are a number of US and Oz pilots at Emirates and given the differences in culture and the distance that they are from home, I can see where the frustrations might lie. But they also may have a point!
Some of this may sound naive to someone already working in The Middle East, but it's not easy to see the wood for the trees sometimes.
So any constructive advice and information for a fellow aviator contemplating his future, would be gratefully received. :ok:

Many thanks
FBW

[casablanca]

I agree that Emirates doesn't need direct entry captains but wouldn't surprise me if it happens. I think your best bet is down the road in Abu Dhabi....they are hiring lots of DECs

[thatwasclose]

Fly by wire,

I have been at emirates for over 5 years and less than 8. I have lived abroad for most my life. Ek has until recently been very good to me over all and I have had a pretty good time in dxb. However lately I have been worked very hard, and with real inflation here high I am saving less and less. I am not a bitter worker saying don't come here in the hopes there is a shortage of pilots so my pay check goes up. I don't recommend this place to experienced pilots anymore. Most my friends feel the same. I have begun looking about leaving, first steps. Moral is low here. Right seat rosters on the 380 and 777 are good still, though getting tighter. The left seat on the 777 is bloody awful. And all the lads on the 330/340 are knackered. Do not presume that only guys that have an axe to grind post negative stuff. I would wager that the silent majority are unhappy.
Good luck in your choices.

[LHR Rain]

You would be hard pressed to find any EK pilot that is happy anymore. As been mentioned many times in many different ways the direction the company has decided to take in the last few years is very troubling as there is absolutely no reason for this southward trend.
If they decide to add DECs to the mix that would be the last straw for a lot of FOs. How much more garbage can they take? Plus what kind of pilot would join Emirates knowing all that the company does and that DECs are coming in front of the new FOs.

[donpizmeov]

Rain,
All FOs in the company now joined knowing EK hires DECs. They just gambled it would not slow them down. Can't see it changing in the future. Those jets are big and shiny remember.

The don

[TransitCheck]

If you look at the history of some of our posts about EK, those who used to be quite positive about the company are now quite negative. That is the trend among the total pilot group. We have a great group of pilots for the most part and it is such a shame that the company has decided to take the low road rather than the high road on cost neutral quality of life issues just because they have control freaks and greedy money hungry pigs as managers/VP's.

If carriers (Asia/Turkey/BKK) start to accept current and experienced wide body F/O's for applicants as DEC's, I believe you will see how unhappy people at EK really are. Currently, every airline is requiring 500 to 1000 hours of wide body command time within the last 6 months to even apply for a DEC position.

[CamelRustler]

At an interview I was given the reason for the 500 hours pic on type. They said it was a requirement of the insurance. Not sure why but that's what they said. Could also be specifically the insurer for that company. And yes 7 years ago I was happy here. Today I am not happy. The simple question is, (Whether you are happy here or not.) Do you think pay and work hours will suddenly, or even slowly get better? I think most of us can agree they will not. So if you are coming here, understand, that right now when you join it is the best it will ever be.

[bringbackthe80s]

Don' t mean to be sarcastic..but why exactly airlines in Asia/Turkey or BKK should hire First Officers at EK as Direct Entry Captains?

[TransitCheck]

I didn't say they should hire EK first officers.

I said if those carriers ever open up DEC hiring to FO's with widebody time on type......I said nothing about making it EK specific.

[glofish]

FBW, let's look at some of your statements:

Even a move to the RHS if it was with a good company, and wasn't for too long

First, never move to the right, if not fired or out of job. Second, never trust any indication of time to upgrade, especially in the ME.

Emirates also appeals because it's not hugely far from home

Well, that might have been the case a few years back. With the silly new rules like only 5 days off in a row, rostering with many acclimatisation problems (need you to be in DXB two days ahead of flights) and the flights overfilled with cheap tickets they upgrade and almost no possibility to book confirmed flights for staff, the UAE sort of feels the same distance from home as Antarctica.

... and a company ethos that being largely Expat, is supportive of a wide variety of expat pilots

In that respect you will have a univocal "not", even from the rare species of happy EK buggers.

rather than a cultural 'them vs us' that I understand

wrong again. It might not be outright racial, but definitely management vs. employees

People generally are more motivated to post when they don't like something, so the large amount of negative posts and the odd blog I suspect don't tell the whole story.

It might not. There is a very good test for that, not only in aviation: Post some rumour about a company/club/community that is not very flattering but borderline possible and check the reactions. In most cases you will trigger many answers of the suspected "silent happy majority".
My bet is you do that for EK today, there will be the obvious bunch confirming that, but only some well known management muppets as positive voices.
Honestly, i don'y know any normal pilot who is happy at the moment!

I know it sounds strange, and i certainly know that the situation is worse at many other places. But a change of job especially to this region needs a bigger ΔT&C to make it worthwhile and stick, especially with a wife and family.

And as has been said before: The situation remains dynamic and the trend is definitely not good.

[puff m'call]

I've not bothered to read all of this because it's probably gone miles off track.

The long and short of it is, DON'T join EK, it's going down hill so fast.
Most of the other ME operators are improving, this lot are not!!!

They can't get the equipment right, they can't get rosters right and they can't get the leave right.

In a nutshell it's FU@KED!

[donpizmeov]

Puff they are trying to fix the equipment problem. If you live long enough the old john deere will be replaced with the john deere 11. Should work a treat.

Seats might still be trash, but at least the wings will fold.

The don

[glofish]

but at least the wings will fold.

True, and it's even intentional!
On other models it's a rather expensive side effect of desperate weight reduction ....... ;)

[cerbus]

The seats are crap on the 777 because like so much else the company does to us it gave us the cheapest option. As you look at the Boeing catalog there are 3 options for the cockpit seats and you can guess from all the back problems pilots have which option Emirates choose for us.
This like so much more is what a new joiner has to look forward to if you elect to join Emirates. They might have Big Shinny Jets but they treat you like absolute trash. Think long and very carefully before joining, your health depends on it!

[donpizmeov]

Is that the -300 or -200 gloie?:}

The don

[glofish]

Let's see, i'm not familiar with the early production denomination of the fat one. Maybe the 200 was the one stuck under the bridge in France and the 300 the one with the somewhat short wiring ..... The one with the wing crutches is called 800 and even its wings still crack.
I guess the 800 will stay the one and only series, but who knows, maybe they could adopt the JD's idea about folding wings and by that cure their blunder!

Sorry for the drift, but it's fun!

[Mr Good Cat]

As long as there is a nonsensical and irrelevant Boeing vs Airbus spat to distract the proletariat from the real issues in Rome, the Bourgeoisie will continue to thrive.

Anyone for a night out at the colosseum?

[aussiesteve]

I'll get to the point before explaining my situation.

The decision I hope I will have to make at some point will be whether I take the first opportunity to move over to EK or stick at my current airline gain my captaincy then move over to EK. (if I did want to leave)
If I did move over as soon as I can I expect a 10+ year wait till command from what I've read in this thread.
If I gained command at present airline I thought (maybe naively) I would possibly get a deal with EK basically saying go to the RHS for a few years (as SFO) and then we'll move you over.
How likely is that? or is it just worth going over straight away if I wanted to make the move.

First, never move to the right, if not fired or out of job.

If EK wont hire DEC would it be wise to consider a move to the RHS for a slight pay cut for a few years until Captaincy?
If they do hire DEC do you think you'd have a chance getting the LHS with only narrow body hours? or will you need some widebody experience?


Background info

I am just about to start my first airline job on the A320 family after finishing flight school last year.
I have always wanted to fly Long Haul to be able to stay in your destinations and having flown EK lots when I was much younger I have always had a soft spot for it.
Having read this thread I understand that I have been very naive as I thought a tax free salary with accommodation etc was a pretty good deal. Maybe it is but maybe not. But I guess I'll be finding out just how it is when I start flying after my type.
Having spoken to a number of crew about EK they have suggested making sure that I visit DXB a good number of times to make sure that I enjoy the place and talk to people who work for them.

Sorry if you think the info is pointless but as I am just starting out I am trying to gather as much info as possible and any help is very much appreciated.

Thanks all!

[SOPS]

If you join as an FO, you will be on the bottom of the list. There is no fast track commands, regardless of your previous experience.

[Wizofoz]

If I gained command at present airline I thought (maybe naively) I would possibly get a deal with EK basically saying go to the RHS for a few years (as SFO) and then we'll move you over.

There won't be any "Deals" done. The criteria are laid down and adhered to.

In the past, there has been a "Fast track" command scheme, where highly experienced FOs were promoted inside the normal three year minimum.

That hasn't happened for several years,is no longer in our manual, and would be unlikely to happen as long as there are sufficient FOs in the company to fill the seats (which will be the case for the foreseeable.)

They have actually taken DECs while still not having the fast-track route open, and that would probably be the case in the future.

If they do hire DEC do you think you'd have a chance getting the LHS with only narrow body hours? or will you need some widebody experience?

It's happened in the past, but that was at a time of rapid growth and limited availability on the world market.

Never say never, but it seems unlikely anytime in the future. While EK is still expanding, on a percentage basis it will never be as rapid as, say, 8 years ago, when it doubled it's fleet in around four years.

It will therefore always have much more capacity to fill the LHS from within, and can therefore be picky when it comes to DECs (if ever.)

If your goal is a LHS with Emirates, the quickest route is to join asap as am FO and wait your turn.

[aussiesteve]

SOPS, Wizofoz.

Thanks for the info. Still got a minimum of 3 years until I get enough experience to think about moving over so will deffo keep an eye on how things progress.

Another question,
Does the tax free salary actually help at all or does it pretty much just compensate for the cost of living?

[kirungi1]

To reiterate comments by Wizofoz, SOP and others on this and more, := I wouldn't make that decision basing on such subjective grounds as Wizofoz has just quoted and it's unlikely that, unless you are a UAE national, you will join as a FO ASAP since you've just made it out of training school and only gained some employment which is a huge achievement; congratulations and well done :D

My advice is that you take heart, consolidate your achievement thus far and learn the trade. Soon you will have that experience that employers look for.

[Wizofoz]

Well, "ASAP" means "As Soon AS Possible", which in Steve's case is about three or four years of solid flying.

[kirungi1]

Wizofoz

Copied and much obliged ;)

[aussiesteve]

Hello again all,

With the opening up of EK recruitment once again, and requirements only an unfrozen ATPL I am about a year closer to taking the decision to apply for EK.

How are rosters looking over in DXB? I am pretty much working 5 on, 3 off at the moment with around 80 hours a month (all 4 sector days).
Could I expect the same with EK? Are they random or fixed?

Lastly, what is the expected time to command on the 380 at the moment? (I know this will probably rise due to the influx of pilots about to hit EK)

Thanks in advance
aussiesteve

feel free to pm me

[bogeydope]

Hello again all,

With the opening up of EK recruitment once again, and requirements only an unfrozen ATPL I am about a year closer to taking the decision to apply for EK.

How are rosters looking over in DXB? I am pretty much working 5 on, 3 off at the moment with around 80 hours a month (all 4 sector days).
Could I expect the same with EK? Are they random or fixed?

Lastly, what is the expected time to command on the 380 at the moment? (I know this will probably rise due to the influx of pilots about to hit EK)

Thanks in advance
aussiesteve

feel free to pm me

You're a gem Dude!!

[aussiesteve]

You're a gem Dude!!

ah some one thinks I am trolling...
Not today my good sir, I am just a n00b looking for information regarding my future.

[SOPS]

Time to command on the 380..? :ugh::ugh:

[aussiesteve]

Yea I thought as much...

[BigGeordie]

Has to be a troll. ATPL still frozen and wants to know how long it will take him to be a Captain on the A380?

On the off chance it is a serious question then believe me, if you come here time to command on the big bus will be the least of your worries.

[aussiesteve]

This is what I've heard about EK

90+ hours per month and increasing with no change in salary/benefits.
Short layovers, pretty much staying on minimum rest/ flying back next day
4 years of RHS and still no hint of upgrading.

Can anyone confirm that?

Last year I heard it was about 8 years to LHS, but talking to Captains who have friends out in DXB I hear that LHS upgrades are going slowly.
So I wanted some clarification.
The sarcasm has been appreciated, I like a good laugh just as much as the next person but at the same time I'd much rather a lot of peoples opinions on what its really like in the sandpit.
It's a dream to work for EK, but if it sounds like what I am hearing is true maybe I'd be better off sticking where I am or looking for something else.

[donpizmeov]

Steve there are plenty of recent threads about what it is like to work for EK. Read them and your answers are there. If you only want to hear some nice fairy tale about how good life is here, with quick commands and lashings of lemonade etc, address you query to:
TCAS
EGHQ
Dubai.

But make it snappy. I believe he time expires soon.

[aussiesteve]

:ok:

I'll have a look around for those threads. Seems like I was asking in the wrong place. At least someone eventually told me they were elsewhere.

Americans trying to understand 'roundabouts' takes less time than finding the right place to post.

[aussiesteve]

It is hard for us n00bs trying to understand this ever changing industry. Especially if you have no family/friends (except flight school) in the industry to point out things that may seem obvious to you experienced chaps.

Let me paint you a picture of what us 'n00bs' are being conditioned to think is normal...

After being treated like :mad: throughout flight training, realising that your £80K+ is not as important as those who have airlines behind them.

Then your first airline job you Pay up to £38k for the TR. For a job where we have NO benefits, only earn money when you block off and scheduled for 80+ hours a month but guaranteed nothing.

Then when we look to move around for a better life, we're all thought of as idiots and trolls for thinking about moving to EK.

I understand things were different for most of you experienced guys as you've probably seen it get worse and worse over the years.
But please understand that from our perspective it looks appealing because we've been trained to expect :mad: from day 1.

I had a Captain give me some advice about moving around. He said, 'Only to change airlines to change your lifestyle, because the office doesn't change'. Trying to find out what kind of lifestyles to expect at various airlines is very difficult without contacts there.

Thanks for reading, and please insert your best 'Living the dream' liners below :ok:

[Wizofoz]

This is what I've heard about EK

90+ hours per month and increasing with no change in salary/benefits.
Short layovers, pretty much staying on minimum rest/ flying back next day
4 years of RHS and still no hint of upgrading.

Can anyone confirm that?


Confirmed.

How are rosters looking over in DXB? I am pretty much working 5 on, 3 off at the moment with around 80 hours a month (all 4 sector days).
Could I expect the same with EK? Are they random or fixed?


I hate to join the chorus having a go at you, but how could you possibly think flying for a long haul international airline could have the same work pattern as doing short haul flying? We have 9 day trips, so it's hardly possible to have a 5 on roster, is it?

We fly 1 or 2 sector days, but some of those sectors are 14 hrs long.

FOs currently doing in excess of 90 hours. It is recognized that this needs to change, but it won't be for at least a few years if ever.

[aussiesteve]

Wizofoz,

Thanks for the answers.

I apologise for coming across naive, but I have no idea what a LH international airline roster would look like.
Any chance you could give me an insight as to what a nine day trip would entail? minus fatigue.

I meant to ask how many days you got off typically in a row after one of these trips? Reading other threads it sounds like you normally get around 4 which many pilots find useless after a trip like that.
How often would you get more than 5 for example?

Cheers

[kennedy]

Aussiesreve, the required rest for that trip is 12 hours! You will probably get 2 days at the most! Although, with the current work load for FO's you'll probably get around 36 hours!😳😱💤

[I love twins]

Aussiesteve. If you're flying at the big orange, as you allude to, then you're not being wholly truthful of the contract conditions there. You seem to be trying to convince yourself of something in order to support your "dream" of going to EK. I suggest you get some time under your belt and maybe look at this in a few years time.

[TypeIV]

How long is the typerating bond in EK?

[aussiesteve]

I love twins,

I know what you mean regarding the contracts. But that is all dependant on where you get based.

Those who get Flexi (UK based) it's survivable with the loan on top.
When you get a Perm UK contract then you get a 75% contract, which is nice if you want the time off during winter. Each for their own. At the moment, I would rather work and get my hours up and see what opens up.
Don't get me wrong I'd love to return to the big orange, but I'd also like to experience LH as well. Unless they announce competition for NAS I am not sure if I would stick it out there for the entire duration of my career.

EU bases get straight Perm contracts but unless you get Italy or France the contract isn't great. Hence the need to fill DEC's in OPO/AMS. No EZY Cpt wants to transfer. And you know its bad when even the Dutch don't want to go home...
I know FO/SO's in OPO/LIS and I don't know how they are surviving.

The contract conditions seem nice for DEC's, and they are. Say for example I left EZY for EK then came back after 15 years or so I would take a bad contract in OPO for 3 years for the option to be back in the UK after Base Freeze was finished.

[donpizmeov]

You poor little thing Stevie. You spent all that money to buy your job, and you're still not happy. You poor little thing. Fingers crossed when you get 1500hrs you can get the wide body command you deserve.

I do believe "noob" is spelt with a k and only one o.

[aussiesteve]

I do believe "noob" is spelt with a k and only one o.

Bravo sir. :D

[AviatoR21]

Sounds like a perfect candidate. Desperate desperate desperate, oh and maybe an inch of big shiny jet syndrome.

[sluggums]

And where is that inch going to be inserted...?

[RFN]

Close to Uranus I would imagine with his stars lining up...

[keepitrealok]

invertboeing,

You asked about the rosters but your thread was closed. So below is an answer to your question, as it applies to this thread.



No one is going to put their roster on here. (If you are a thinking chap or chapette you'd go off and ponder that in itself.)

I'll break it down for you:

You will get 8-12 days off mostly. Maybe once or twice a year you will get 15 days off. Some will count rest days as days off, other won't.

You will work 90-95hrs for the foreseeable future. Will that change? Yes, but only to the new target of 89 hours in a 31 day month.

You will do 2 ground school days per year.

You will do 2 x 2 Sim days per year. (i.e. 4days)

You will do 2 handling sims per year.

You will do CRM once per year.

You will do SEPs once per year.

You will do 1 line check every 2 years.

You will maybe get 42 days AL per year. Some will get their full quota, while others will go 15 months with none. It makes no sense but that is how it is.

When you get 2 weeks of AL you will get 55-60hrs of flying in the other 2 weeks of work. If you get 'allocated' 4 days of AL you will work a full roster. So your AL therefore was not AL.

You must be in Dubai 3 local nights before any ULR flight. (Also for some others that it is not immediately obvious for.) So if you happen to get 4 or 5 days off in a row, the money is on it being before a ULR. So you won't be able to travel outside of 2 hrs time zone. So you generally won't be able to travel to places you want to in that time off. (As it is EK jets have extremely high load factors so using staff travel is not easy.)

Rules are in place that affect how you bid and stop you from getting pairings you want to do. After roster promulgation those rules will be disregarded when there are flights the company requires you to do.

While it is not impossible to, it is very, very, very difficult to swap trips. This is due to both the hours being flown by pilots and also the myriad of rostering rules. On the occasion that you find someone both able to swap and willing to, it is almost like winning the lotto. Almost.

If you go through all those training duties you will realise that up to 7 of your rosters each year can be affected by training. So you won't get what you bid for in those months. (granted that the new system allows you to bid for when you want your training, so that may change.)

People will come on here and tell you that they get 15 days off every month and their rosters are brilliant. I will say that if those pilots exist they are not the overwhelming majority. They are an extremely, extremely small minority.

You will be tired - that's a fact. It's going to be how you handle it. Read elsewhere on here and others have written just how much they believe they merely 'exist' while working at EK. Everyone is different.

You will get a fantastic moon tan.

Eat lots of carrots.

If the above seems reasonable to you, apply. If it doesn't, then don't.

We each have choices in life: make one. Then stand by your decision. But always reassess.

:ok:

[SOPS]

Excellent post. Sums it up exactly.:ok:

[Fuzuma]

Keepitrealok,

Thanks so much for that, the best explanation I've read so far on how things work at EK, fantastic info........

[a-ricky-town]

I have just logged in only to say thanks to keepitrealok for such a good summary.

Similar feedback can be found scattered all over pprune bus this post condensates all of it in a few lines.

Does it pay off financially compared to an easyJet French contract?

I am inclined to apply for the experience, not for the need, as I have a permanent position with a nice income in a stable European airline.

Thanks for the feedback.

[TypeIV]

I am inclined to apply for the experience, not for the need, as I have a permanent position with a nice income in a stable European airline.

Depends on what you find important and valuable in life.

If selling out on your familly, friends, integrity, health, relationship for a couple of extra square metres in the villa and 10 extra feet of length on your sailboat, it might pay off.

Investmens will be wiped out every 7th year due to financial crises, real estate investments will increase your tax burden due to sick political social experiments.

Or you just accept that you neighbor is slightly richer and enjoy the non material values in life instead while still doing good with a good job and in good health :ok:

[CAT3A]

keepitrealok

Excellent post, spot on

[Cenrifugel]

On of the most accurate summaries of life at EK i've ever read.

[ekpilot]

And you will be considered just like the Guys with The Blue, yellow, green or red suits all over the city...