CFI Checkride question/story

[anokname]

I took my first attempt of my CFI checkride the other day. After the oral the wx wouldnt let us do the flight. We scheduled to finish it up in a few days. In the time between the C172RG had a gear up landing and was out off commission. In order to complete the test I found the only other rentable RG in the state and signed up in it.

I ended up attempting the flight portion in a plane I have never flown before from an airport I have never been to before. This combined with the difficulty of the test and my nerves caused me to fail the ride. It was really annoying because the checklist provided by the FBO did not include a transponder or flaps check. I overlooked the transponder which was not 1200 and I failed because of it.

Now im needing to do a flight or two of practice before the recheck. But because the plane is not at my home FBO I need to train with a new instructor at the new location.

Here finally is the question. In order to get the endorsement for the recheck, does the cfi writing the endorsement need to have 2 years of experience, or can it be just any cfi that flies with me?

[glendalegoon]

There are two things you can do, either get a 2 year CFI or call the local FSDO and ask an inspector for a ruling.

by the way, you deserved to fail the checkride and you should have familiarized yourself with the checklist.

Here is a menomic device which might help you and YOUR students

T
L
C

when taking the runway for takeoff, everyone needs a little tlc (used to mean tender loving care)

but for flying

T for transponder
L for lights (have your landing light on for traffic avoidance etc)
C for compass: check your compass, runway "heading or bearing" (using the number or look up the bearing of the runway in the AFD) and your directional gyroscope or other direction indicating device.


TLC

And you have just learned a cheap lesson. YOU and YOU ALONE are responsible for the safe and legal completion of a flight.

the checklist that you used got you into the air safely enough, but you must know from now on a checklist that YOU HAVE not verified yourself may not be as good as the one from a previous FBO.

Why not take a practice check ride with the same Examiner and maybe learn something.

Becoming a CFI is a huge responsibility . YOU are going to train someone who will be flying around the rest of us and that person might be trained "WRONG" and cause a problem.

Be glad you learned something and be demanding of yourself and your students. BE glad you had a tough examiner!

[glendalegoon]

PS

as far as flaps. wondering: were they down for takeoff (fully extended)?

Or did you forget them for landing?

An often talked about item on pprune is KILLER ITEMS: at airlines, we use muscle memory to verify flap/slats for takeoff among other things.

[sapperkenno]

The things that will may cause you harm in a light aircraft if not set correctly... TFM is a mnemonic I use prior to takeoff and it's relatively simple. It's actually numerous T's F's and M's depending on type and goes something like;
Trim,
Flying Controls, Flaps, Fuel,
Mixture, Mags.
Works for me anyway!
So even when my students have followed the pre-takeoff checks, I always run through those things in my head as a last check. Then TLC on line-up.
Even if you think of everything you can beginning with the letters T/F/M you can't go far wrong...
Throttle Friction, Trim, Transponder,
Flying controls, Flaps, Fuel,
Mix/Mags etc.
CIGARS is another one that a lot of Americans use along with GUMPS (vs the UK "BUMFICH") for pre-takeoff and pre-landing.

[sapperkenno]

Was it an issue with not setting flap, or was it that you didn't select each notch prior to takeoff to see that they extended/retracted ok (symmetrically) through the different settings along with checking the flight controls?
That flap check isn't something I've seen in the UK but used to be on the checklists at the school I attended in the US. So if it was that, and the examiner saw it as you missing a crucial flight control check, then I can see why he thought it serious enough to fail you.

[mad_jock]

Failing to set 1200 shouldn't be a fail item for a VFR flight surely?

Was their a requirement for it for the airspace you were in?

Both my UK instructor tests have been in aircraft where the transponder was knackard anyway.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'd have thought not knowing and being fully on top of the aeroplane and airport, as instructor, was the fail point. The detail is fairly irrelevant.

Non-TX is fine, so long as you knew it was u/s, and had that factored into the lesson plan and way of flying. Failing to account for the serviceability state of the aeroplane and/or knowing the checklist intimately on the other hand...

Out in the real world, you'll do this all the time of course. But, you should also have spent significant time with your nose in a book making quite sure you can teach in that environment. And on your checkride, you need to be twice as prepared.

G

[mad_jock]

Personally I would be more interested if they could patter teaching straight and level. And other such stuff.

That's cpl stuff fail and not what's under test.

[glendalegoon]

I realize some of our UK brothers might not understand that the transponder :

1. May have been needed for the airspace


2. May have had an IFR transponder code from a previous flight that would confuse the system.

3. May have had 0000 and caused a problem with NORAD

4. IF the transponder had not been "ON" at all, all the TCAS in the world would not have "SEEN" the plane and a collision might not have been prevented.


Remember, the young CFI candidate will be teaching OTHERS how to fly and the greatest impression you can make as an instructor is to SET A GREAT EXAMPLE.

IF a CFI says: I want you to use a checklist, but I don't have to. GET ANOTHER CFI.

So much is so imporant especially in the first 200 hours of ANY PILOT let alone a CFI.


AS far as the flaps. I knew one genius who took off from Sacramento , California and flew down to a small airport near San Jose. He took off in a C172 with 3 normal to large men aboard.

HE TOOK OFF WITH FLAPS 40. He had not retracted the flaps after preflight.

He flew for over 20 minutes wondering why the plane didn't "FEEL RIGHT">

Had the runway been shorter ( like his landing and next departure) the plane would have surely crashed.


Either you can take flying seriously and teaching flying even MORE seriously or you can do whatever you like. JUST NOT AROUND ME.

[mad_jock]

I am perfectly aware of airspace, transponder codes and the function of TCAS.

Its still a debrief point with a remonstration, not a fail on a flight instructor test. Its not the skill which is being tested which is the way to teach flying.


And I have finished my instructing career at ppl level. And I am just about to set off just now for 4 sectors of command course "teaching" as a "check airman" if that's the same as a line training CAptain.

And EASA land we can't start the FI course until we have over 200 hours.

In the UK test it would be the "student" who would be setting the flaps and running the checklist anyway. You would have been given the scenario that the student would have been on lesson 3-13 and you would have been expected to patter checklist usage/ground control. And if the "student" was doing it correctly the skill would be to keep your mouth shut and let them get on with it.

To be honest I don't think I have ever done the checklist with a student on a PPL lesson apart from trial flights. And I have never used a paper checklist during them its all been from memory.

So quite why in the test the potential FI is doing it is a bit strange to me.

[glendalegoon]

madjock

I guess we do things differently here.

Indiana is a far piece or is it fer piece from Scotland. Though there is a Scotland , Pennsylvania.

We use paper checklists or laminated plastic or something similar.

madjock, if you are aware of the transponder, certainly you wouldn't takeoff with it "OFF" (or standby). You wouldn't compromise all that nice work on TCAS would you?

[mad_jock]

Depends to be honest some airports want it off in the circuit.

Personally I would always have it on if I was PIC but there are many that won't have it on. Or will turn it off during PFL's so there is no radar evidence if there is a rule 5 bust complaint.

But not turning it on wouldn't be a fail even if required.

We wouldn't be doing the test in a complex retractable anyway it would be a C150 or the like.

[Genghis the Engineer]

glendalegoon - I hold a UK issued European CPL and FAA PPL, and am used to flying in both environments. (I'm a European instructor also, but of-course have flown with many both UK-CAA and FAA qualified instructors).

The basic requirements in regard of any of the stuff we're talking about are basically identical in both countries, there is no significant difference.

(There are small differences - classifications of airspace and what squawk codes we use - trivia.)


Where I slightly disagree with Jock (who I should also say is a much more experienced instructor than me, so I'll be interested if he disagrees with the way I'm expressing this) is in priorities in the "instructor checkride" (we'd call it a skill test).

Whilst the PRIMARY purpose of the checkride is to establish the ability to teach, there are other matters. The instructor has to ALSO demonstrate a very high standard of airmanship and flying, because they are the example upon which the student is basing their own flying.

In that context, our original poster's failure to know his aeroplane and checklist properly, and be on top of items such as the Tx, checklist, airport procedures and local airspace is in my opinion a clear fail. Presumably that was the opinion of his check pilot as well.

One hopes that the OP, if he's any good, will take all this on board and present himself for his next checkride far better prepared - and then go into his instructing career presenting his students with a much better example than he would otherwise.



Incidentally - it did raise an interesting question. Here in Britain I did my commercial checkride (CPL skill test!) in a complex single - in my case a Piper Arrow IV, and my instructor checkride (CRI skill test) in a C152. An interesting observation that apparently the USA does it the other way around.

G

[zondaracer]

Incidentally - it did raise an interesting question. Here in Britain I did my commercial checkride (CPL skill test!) in a complex single - in my case a Piper Arrow IV, and my instructor checkride (CRI skill test) in a C152. An interesting observation that apparently the USA does it the other way around.

Actually, in the US, the commercial pilot practical test and CFI practical would both be completed using a complex single.

On another note, the AIM (4-1-20) says to use the transponder in the Altitude or On mode even while taxiing on the ground, so from the time the avionics switch comes on, the transponder should be checked for correct code and operating mode.

[ifitaintboeing]

Despite some advice on here coming from UK posters, I can tell you as a current FAA CFI and EASA FI that the checkride requirements and content are broadly similar.

In order to get the endorsement for the recheck, does the cfi writing the endorsement need to have 2 years of experience, or can it be just any cfi that flies with me?

As someone who examines initial FI applicants, I would advise you to seek guidance and instruction from an experienced CFI who has trained many CFI applicants, preferably a DPE with CFI training experience.

ifitaint...

[mad_jock]

A none mode S transponder on the ground turned on is a complete pain in the bum for TCAS equipped aircraft. One that's only squirting mode A is an even bigger pain in the backside with 20k feet of aircraft above getting traffic warnings.

Just get the student to do as much as possible and only do the required demonstrations and they don't get to see your screw up's. Simple really.

Well it worked for me.

And I was in rubbish FO mode today so every single checklist I screwed up and every thing that could be set wrong was.

Bloody hard work making yourself fly crap.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Bloody hard work making yourself fly crap.

Lack of talent on your part Jock - for many of us it comes entirely naturally.

G