Cabin Carry On

[ParkingHell]

Well I am convinced now, going through security at Port Hedland this morning the guardians of aviation safety confiscated a 4" crescent out of my back pack but I could keep the 8mm Allen key that was also in the backpack.I told the women (who had a voice you would not want to be waking up to every morning) that she can have the Allen key as well and shove it. I mean what havoc am I going to commit to people on board with a 4" Sidchrome crescent? As I sat in 1C and I was given to eat my meal a metal knife and fork? Pisses me off as the only reason it was not in my check in baggage is because it was in my jeans pocket from the day before when I found it at the airport, but bugger me it will probably cost me $25-$30 to replace the bloody thing.
It's got me! I guess I should be glad of my contribution to aviation security!

[jas24zzk]

If it makes you feel better, she probably has to spend an hour on overtime writing a report on the item she confiscated from you and the justification of how she felt it was in the interest of aviation safety.

Another person will read her report and......................................................... ................


enjoy you taxes mate

[onetrack]

Those 4" Crescents are dangerous damned things, you should know that. You can skin a knuckle in an instant, when they slip off the nut. :)

Who knows what you could achieve in an aircraft cabin environment?? Why, every Miss Marples Midsomer Murder show I've watched, the murderer snuck up behind the victim, and whacked them out in one blow, with an adjustable shifter!! :eek:

[Blueskymine]

The legislation states it has to be over 30cm to be considered a blunt trauma object. Or is sharp like scissors or a screwdriver .

I doubt a crescent could be categorised as such.

[tail wheel]

She probably needs it to repair her broom?

[bentleg]

I had a roll of tape (a bit like duct tape) taken off me once, why I don't know. I suppose I could have tied someone up with it. At the same time (and every subsequent time) they let me take my various chargers where the cord could be used to strangle someone. I also don't get it. Yep taxpayers money, or is it payment for my airfare, at work.

[Di_Vosh]

Back in late 2006 I was stopped in Darwin airport and had my keyring confiscated. The keyring was a 3/8" spanner and about as long as my little finger.

The reason given was that it was a "tool", and that tools weren't allowed in the cabin.

When I pointed out that this set of keys had gone through just about every major airport in Australia that year the response was "We can't help it if no other airport in Australia does their job properly." (Darwin being the centre of international terrorism and all that :rolleyes:).

A written complaint later resulted in me receiving in the mail someone else's keyring (same size keyring but a shifting spanner). Go figure.

A few months later I was laughing about this with a mate of mine who was an officer in the AFP. He'd had an allen key taken off him by the same security team, despite him travelling in his AFP uniform! :ouch:

DIVOSH!

[Metro man]

I've seen armed security guards put their guns through the X- Ray machine before. I don't think they had to remove the bullets and have them screened separately though.

[ThereISlifeafterQF]

Oh, this subject...... Now you got me started !!

I travel regularly out of Cairns International with CO2 cartridges (that I use for inflating my bike tyres when I have a flat) as I can't get them in the lovely country where I work. I always declare them at check-in (4 of each time, which is the limit), though often have to tell the check-in staff where to find the information in their IATA DG Quick Guide..... (some of them have it with them, but the rest either check with Ops, or just take my word for it). I should also point out that these cartridges are identical (thread fitting, contents) as those used in the aircraft life jackets (two cylinder types). OK, these ones are only 16 grams (about 30 ml) each - and they are not FAA-PMA approved parts - but are essentially identical (and are perfect for doing 20.11 training by the way !).

For convenience (of (in)security) I always have them in a mesh pocket on the outside of my bag - so it is clearly visitly going through the scanner. I have had every reaction from "Totally forbidden !" (which of course I argue, until they realise they are wrong !), through to them not being picked up at all ! (or they simply igonore them).

Lately they seem to have taken on a new "policy" of requiring that the cartridges "must be packed to prevent contact", which I have again argued with (in)security asking where on earth this "policy" information is written, until I relented and put each cylinder in a different pocket of my bag / jacket. After walking away into Duty Free I was then approached by the (in)security bloke who interrupts my perusing to show me a highlighted section of a webpage he had printed out, which stated "must be packed or packaged to prevent contact or damage", so I quizzed him where he got this "gem" of information, and notice that is a page from the QF website, so asked him "what the hell does the QF website information have to do with me ? - I'm flying PX !" (and even showed him my boarding pass, telling him to check with the company rep to verify I had declared them). A vacant look in response, and he wandered off to pester someone else coming through the scanner......

On my last departure...... same story: "must be packaged to prevent contact", so I offered to put each of them in a different pocket of my bag / jacket, etc., to be confronted with "Oh no, that won't suffice", where he then pulled out a zip-loc bag (the ones they have for undeclared LAG's) and instructed me to put them in there !! When I asked "what is that bag going to do ?" I was told that "it will protect you should they go off". I couldn't stop myself from laughing !!! I managed to satisfy him with my comment that "if they do go off in my pocket, then I deserve it"......

TILAQ

[sms777]

In my opinion if someone finally made sense out of all this......can you imagine how many people would be out of work?

[thorn bird]

Now guys, forget about tools, haven't you heard the most serious threat to aviation currently is "NUTTELLA". if you turn up with a jar of that, they clear the terminal, call the bomb squad and Swat team.
One of my relo's got severely admonished for turning up for an international flight with a jar of Nuttella in his carryon.

[CoodaShooda]

Di_Vosh

Same security team in Darwin that let through a 6" hunting knife in the bottom of my briefcase; not once but twice. (I'd taken it an earlier camping trip and forgotten it was there. )

In fairness, it got through Sydney security too.

Finally got picked up in Perth, where they allowed me to go back to check-in and put it in the hold. They even gave me a bag to put it in. :ok:

[Adsie]

I was going from YSCB to YPMQ on Virgin to grab a PA31.

I had only my flight bags, wallet and mobile phone on me [ oh - sorry and also my ASIC ]

They told me I could not take my fuel tester on board because it had the screw driver attachment.

I remove the steel driver portion of the tester and asked if I could take the rest and security was happy with that.

What is an ASIC really worth?

[Capt Claret]

What is an ASIC really worth?

Sweet F#%* All....... :mad:

[Bounceferret]

Mine does a great job of cleaning my fingernails.

[oldpax]

Two year ago I took the air cylinder for my dive BC through in hand luggage coming back to Thailand .It was not even looked at !Funny the amount of stuff you could get inside and screw the valve back on!!

[500N]

Metro

Are you serious ?

They put the firearms through the x ray ?

[VH-XXX]

To be honest, Darwin is probably now the centre of terrorism attention thanks to me passing through there a few years back sorry guys.

A. My clothes were too para-military for them and upset other passengers
B. Empty ammo brass in carry on is an offence apparently
C. Security screening don't know what pistol magazines look like
D. A half deaf flight attendant thought I said I had a bomb on board (didn't actually say that I swear)
E. Pistols aren't allowed in checked baggage without telling someone


PS: I am aware that most of these aren't offences but it seems they weren't!

PPS: I once saw my bag go through the X-ray and there was a pistol in it, so I freaked out a little as I grabbed my bag. Turns out it was a training aid! If they miss more than a few they have to be retrained. It's possible if you saw a pistol in a bag it may have been a fake digital one.

[NoseGear]

My favourite subject....I've had vegemite taken off me at security in SYD on one occasion, whilst in uniform (it's expensive in the Fragrant Harbour), on the judgement that it's a LAG...I asked which one then is it then? He responded, it's a Liquid...I said, take the lid off and hold it upside down, what will happen? Genius said ok, it's a Gel....I said would you run vegemite through your hair to style it? He said of course not, and then summoned his superior who probably agreed with me but had to back up his staff, which was probably fair enough I guess....hope they enjoyed their toast!:suspect: I've been extra swabbed for explosives, also in SYD, and when I queried it, again at work in uniform, I was asked if I wanted to "do this the easy way or the hard way"......I laughed and asked if he really wanted to try and throw me on the ground and handcuff me....no sense of humor these avsec types....he also didn't get the joke when I told him to never, ever swab the wings of an airplane:E

To add balance to the Tasman, I was told by the local avsec in AKL that my carry on bag was too heavy and to remove my laptop...which I duly did, until I was out of screening and then promptly put it back inside....:ugh::ugh: Honestly, where has common sense gone?:rolleyes:

Nosey

[Metro man]

Metro

Are you serious ?

They put the firearms through the x ray ?

Yes they do in Singapore. Also the hand held metal detectors used to screen passengers that beep get x rayed before going into the sterile area.

[Lancair70]

I was with my wife (now ex) saying goodbye at YBCG, the kids wanted to wave goodbye to mummy from the dept lounge. I was stopped at security with 2 tiny little machine screws in my pocket. They were from my work and were needed but I was not allowed to take them in to the dept area, even tho I wasnt flying. The guy wouldnt even hold on to them for me so I could collect them on my way out. He said they could be bomb parts!

[Animalclub]

This is true.
Waiting to board a PSA 737 at Burbank a passenger declared a fire arm in his brief case. Check in chap called a security staff to carry the fire arm to the captain and escort the pax to the aircraft. Whilst walking to the aircraft the security guy gave the pistol back to the passenger and returned to the terminal!!??!!
We traveled to SFO without a problem.

[Tankengine]

In Australia they can't take anything to the Captain because he just had his tweezers or 110gm toothpaste confiscated.:rolleyes:

Just got home from Europe : normal security getting on in Munich, again in Dubai in transit before entering departure part of terminal, followed by the stupid ruffle through the carry on bags at the gate. (No wonder Qantas is going broke with this stupidity, just one more nail):ugh:

At Hong Kong once at the staff security I saw the guy in front of me get the full wand treatment after beeping through the arch. The young female security officer did a thorough job, carefully checking that each of the beeps was in fact metal that she could identify. (No chance of illegal Swiss Army knife or the like:})
She couldn't understand why I was pissing myself!;)
The metal object beeps were from the Uzi, pistol and grenades!!:E:ugh::ugh:

[ParkingHell]

$33.00 inc GST as I needed it for a job yesterday.:mad:

[chute packer]

You got ripped. $6.40
Craftright 100mm Adjustable Wrench Cr2000 I/N 6110452 | Bunnings Warehouse (http://www.bunnings.com.au/craftright-100mm-adjustable-wrench-cr2000_p6110452)

[RampDog]

Having read through the variety of posts on this thread it is obvious that most air travellers, including some aviation professionals, are confused when it comes to the classification of security items and/or Dangerous Goods. I know from experience in a previous role dealing with DG/Security approvals that most passengers have very little or limited knowledge of the complexity of determining what's safe or not to be loaded onto an aircraft.

Firstly it is not the passenger's call to justify that their item is ok to be in their carry on baggage just because it is important for their line of work, hobby or whatever, or just because they carried it through on a previous occasion. Generally it seems that some individuals feel that their personal judgement/risk assessment on whether their item is "safe" is all that is required to take it with them. There are predetermined Security restrictions and Dangerous Goods Regulations that Check in and Security Screening staff need to enforce and it is not always possible for them to do that 100% successfully, especially when much of the process actually relies on pax being upfront and actually declaring their items. Every check in process (including self check in) clearly asks you to declare DGs or security items. As with most things, if in doubt the onus is on you to check. Ignorance is no excuse yet air travellers conveniently plead that as a defence all the time. It is well documented that this also applies when it comes to Customs and Quarantine items as well, you only need watch Border Security to see that :=

The guy who had his Sidchrome tool confiscated would not have had a problem if it had been checked in, end of story. Security regs say no tools (size is not an exclusion) in carry on, Security staff are right and have done their job. For the guy carrying CO2 cartridges, unless you have airline approval you are breaking the law taking them in your baggage and if you declared them when checking in as you are asked to, you would have been told that. The approval is free and only an email or phone away, simple!

No law enforcement officer or security guard worthy of their professions would ask or demand to take a firearm or ammo in their carry on, again the regulations are clear. There are always many options for these items to be carried on an aircraft with the correct approvals and handling.

Maintaining a safe operation is what those frontline people are paid to do and giving them a hard time is unjustifiable, just because it causes some inconvenience. It is a sign of the times and the world we live in that individuals consider their needs to be more important than that of everyone else :(

Btw, the line about repairing the broom is obviously in jest (I admit I chuckled at the image of that), but hardly fair, when she's done her job to the letter. How many potential incidents has this officer averted by being diligent, no one will ever know (or care it seems) but just wait until the moment something gets through and see what the response is! :ok:

[prospector]

) but just wait until the moment something gets through and see what the response is!

What could that "something" be I wonder.If one was of a mind to create havoc and destruction surely one could think of something that is not on the restricted list? I mean the heels of shoes were not regularly inspected until after an attempt was made to use that method of carrying explosives.

[KRviator]

The problem with your argument - even though it is correct and I agree with it, RampDog, is by their vey nature, the security agencies are always playing catchup.

A pilot can't take a leathman through security, yet walk around to the GA gate and he's able to waltz through with a chainsaw. There is no consistency, nor common sense, among the various outfits.

Many moons ago we took a pair of Hercs to Hobart and the security muppet wouldn't let us onto the tarmac the next day. Why? Because "you don't have a Hobart airport ID card, sir". Riiiggghhhttttt.....

All the various agencies are doing is making sure the next time something is attacked, it won't be an aeroplane. Really, who is going to go through the risk of getting sprung at airport security, when, with a pair of suicide bombers and a suitcase of bang each, you can effectively kill a thousand people by detonating them at either end of a Sydney train in the underground?

All they are doing is moving the target location. They're not increasing safety by doing so.

[thorn bird]

KR, exactly right. Much of the so called "Security" requirements are more about putting on a show than securing anything. The whole security industry now is about making money and they will be lobbying the bureaucrats vigorously for ever more ways to inconvenience travellers, yet ignore glaring holes in their so called security matrix.
A glaring example is the cattle pens in front of the screening areas.
Around six every morning at Sydney a couple of A380 loads of punters nicely penned up in a bunch just waiting for a nutter to press the button.
If you want to see how to do security, take some lessons from the Israeli's.

[ParkingHell]

Nah I don't buy the cheap stuff, only Sidchrome or other quality stuff. And rampdog I understand the needs for checking for items that could cause a problem on board and I take your point. But it all seems pretty f@cking stupid that they did not take my metal pen off me which I could easily push through an eye and into someone's brain or use the metal knife and fork supplied with my meal to do similar or worse. But a four inch crescent come on mate, hardly a weapon of mass destruction.

[thorn bird]

December 2013 Statistics On Airport security Screening From DOTARS :

Terrorists Discovered...................0
Transvestites...........................133
Hernias.................................1485
Hemorrhoid Cases..................3172
Enlarged Prostates..................8249
Breast Implants....................59350
Natural Blondes...........................3

[onetrack]

The major problem with the airline security industry is the sheer inconsistency of its approach. SWMBO has two replacement knees, with 500g of titanium in each knee. As a result, she gets taken aside without fail every time when going through security.

The security treatment from that point on, varies from a chat with a cursory inspection - to the full-blown, abrasive, ignorant power-wielder ar$ehole, who treats her like a convicted known terrorist, and who virtually explores every body orifice in detail, over 5 minutes or more.

It's time a standard approach was taken every time - not one just based on the individual security persons interpretation of the situation.

As the number of replacement joint operations increase (there's already around 80,000 knee replacements alone every year in Oz as I understand) to the many hundreds of thousands annually - in line with ageing populations - then this angle is going to have a very sizeable impact on slowing down security operations in the future.

[RampDog]

Sorry guys I've just got back on. KR, you're right but there are 2 ways to look at it. Catching up when something happens is a given, we can't let them get points on us, but staying ahead of the game is what is actually required to avoid problems. The regulations have been created so that there is a consistent reference to what is and isn't permitted. Unfortunately pax sometimes end up being somewhat inconvenienced by inconsistent rulings that arise when security personnel apply their own judgement to something that is generally clearly defined somewhere in "telephone books" full of regulations.
It is a mixture of experience, subject knowledge and dedication that enables a disciplined operator to make correct and consistent determinations. These skills aren't always there or well developed, and when that's combined with a lack of customer service skills, then we all know who walks away disgruntled and very unhappy.
The key to consistency is thorough and constant training of people with the right aptitude to fulfil a quite complex mission. In my opinion companies generally are not interested in paying for a better standard, they only want to pay for whatever meets the minima, that's never going to change in this competitive (aviation) world!
In the end my only advice is, when it comes to anything that you may be unsure of, just ring or email your airline of choice and in most cases (be assured 100% of the time with QF :ok:) you will get a clear determination before you get to the airport. The moral is "Better safe than sorry", the onus is you!

[ANCPER]

RampDog,

YOU ARE A PEDANT! What's in a name? When is a tool a tool? Passing through security in Perth a few yrs ago and I was pulled up because on my keyring was a small little screw driver used to tighten up the screws in reading glasses and designed for said task, now I'm sure you know how small that is, 20mm long! $20 down the drain, but she got an ear full for her troubles.

P.S. Glad to see you keeping us "safe" :rolleyes:

[Neptunus Rex]

So why are Black Belt Karate experts allowed to fly as passengers?

[bentleg]

Ring or email the airline before you go and get a determination.......sure......then get it taken off you at the security. I suspect the security people in most cases are employed by the airport, not the airline.

I agree the approach is inconsistent and better training would go a long way towards helping......but training costs money and everyone these days wants to do more for less, so what suffers?

[thorn bird]

Question for you security pundits.

If pilots are to be treated exactly the same manner as the self loading cargo,
why are they required to pay the government or its agencies an exorbitant fee for ASIC cards?, there's no point to them it surely, except to make money.
Might as well turn up to work in civvies and change into your uniform when you get on board.

[framer]

and giving them a hard time is unjustifiable,
Bollocks. I'll give anyone a hard time if they aren't polite enough to acknowledge me saying hello to them when they approach me for whatever test they have in mind. I'll do the same to the refueller or the Engineer or my line manager. Manners don't cost anything and if some basic manners are on display the whole thing goes smoothly, the thing is , the refueller and Engineer and line manager are polite 99% of the time, Security about 50% of the time.
All the various agencies are doing is making sure the next time something is attacked, it won't be an aeroplane.
I don't agree. Do you think that every person airside in Australia has been through an x-Ray machine?

[The Bullwinkle]

Question for you security pundits.

If pilots are to be treated exactly the same manner as the self loading cargo,
why are they required to pay the government or its agencies an exorbitant fee for ASIC cards?, there's no point to them it surely, except to make money.
Might as well turn up to work in civvies and change into your uniform when you get on board.

And more questions for you security pundits.

When you test us pilots for traces of explosive residue, are you aware that we then go and put tonnes of explosive into our fuel tanks?

Also, when you confiscate a pilots leatherman or tweezers or nail file, are you aware that there is a bloody big crash axe right there in the flightdeck?

Tell me again how you're making us safer!

[ThereISlifeafterQF]

Rampdog,
As per my original post I always declare CO2 to check in staff (there not being any way to do a full on-line check in for the international flights I usually take for work). When travelling domestically (when carrying CO2) I don't bother checking in on-line as when asked the DG question it wont let you complete the check-in, so it all gets done at the airport. The first time this happened (mid 2013) the check-in staff couldn't find the info in her IATA Quick Guide - even after giving her the Table reference - because she was still using a 2012 DG Guide ! (Oops !) A quick call to POCO / Ops and I was on my way.
Like a good many of us here, we are well versed with the various regulatory requirements, and what the intent of those requirements are. But I agree, there is a lot that comes down to the adequate training of the staff involved, as to what the intended outcome of the requirements are........

[RampDog]

ANCPER, you say that like it's a bad thing :O By that definition aviation, more than any other industry, is chock-a-block full of pedants, professionals who follow the regulations and procedures to the last letter. How many pilots or engineers would you think just use the procedures and regs as a "guide" only, and allow themselves to make decisions based on whatever is easiest or least inconvenient. In the av game it's everyone's responsibility to make sure that the people you are working with or for are safe, is it not?
Re the "What's in a name? When is a tool a tool?" I guess someone with the appropriate knowledge is employed to determine that, it's not you or me, but I'd say it's someone usually far removed from the frontline. Just for reference, the item needn't have been confiscated, you could have told the screener that you wanted to mail it back to your home address. It would have meant stepping back out of the line or even being escorted to the Post Office. I've done it with one of those tiny (40mm) Swiss Army knives, it's a fair bit of work but you get the satisfaction of beating the system :E
I do agree that customer service is certainly not something many of these security officers waste time on refining :(. I've experienced the "I'm right even when I'm wrong" and the "step out of the queue" attitudes firsthand. In this country we expect everyone to be polite, even the cops, however it's probably a bit unrealistic given that we are prepared to accept hard faces and machine guns when we go to overseas ports. Ultimately, we are all victims of the world we live in, "the System". Talking about the failings of it gets it off our chests, but nothing will change it, it's an entire industry worth squazillions. :sad:

[RampDog]

ThereISlifeafterQF, if you have a regular requirement to carry compliant CO2 cartridges e.g.no larger than 28g or 50ml in a lifejacket or for bike tyre inflation, with a max of 4, contact QF DGs ([email protected]) and request a Letter of Approval. It's free and can be used at check in, for all QF and Jetstar flights, validity until 31/12/14 atm but when updated will go for another 2 years. I'm no longer at QF, but trust me they will go out of their way to help you :D

[500N]

Concur re the letter from Qantas DG. I find it does tend to "smooth things" at check in, mostly because they know you know what you are doing and have probably done it before.

ThereIS
I carry a copy of the relevant regs just in case although I have always found Qantas very good indeed when it comes to flying with DG.

[ralph1]

It's called a SHIFTER

[Rbwoonton]

We are told from day 1 that no one is exempt from the LAGS wanding and explosive trace detection. Yes I know, why do we have to do the crew when the skipper can pitch the nose down etc I completely agree with you, its a waste of time

When I grab a pilot most of the time they dont mind etc worst case was being called a lowlife. I dont care what you call me tbh this job is funding my flying.

I dont blame them being pissed off either, the way some of my colleagues treat crew is pathetic and they are sour partly because they have tried and failed in life and this is all they can amount too.. They have a real chip in the shoulder as you would say.

[Oakape]

Generally it seems that some individuals feel that their personal judgement/risk assessment on whether their item is "safe" is all that is required to take it with them.

... when much of the process actually relies on pax being upfront and actually declaring their items. Every check in process (including self check in) clearly asks you to declare DGs or security items.

People aren't going to declare their items if they think they are 'safe'. When asked the DG's/security questions, they will simply answer 'no', as they don't think they have anything dangerous with them. Almost no-one will take the time to read or listen to the question properly & then consider what they have with them in light of the information provided with the question.

The whole system falls down right there!

[KittyKatKaper]

If people actually declared everything that *could* fall into the 9 Dangerous Goods classes then the entire system will slow to a crawl.

an aerosol deodorant can is a class 2 (gas)
perfume, after-shave and spirits are class 3 (flammable liquid)
vaseline, lipstick, muesli-bars, clothes are class 4 (flammable solid)
shoe polish is class 3 (flammable liquid) or class 4 (flammable solid)
all batteries are at least a class 8 (corrosive) and maybe class 6 (toxic)
Depending on my mood I am a class 9 (noxious or irritating) and in winter can be a class 6 (infectious substance)
heck., a magnetic compass and laptop hard-disks are class 9 (magnetised material)

It's all well and good to have definitions for DGs and security prohibited items, but problems arise when barrier people unthinkingly enforce such broad definitions.



And just in., another example of security theatre where our pollies, their families and staff and public servants do not need to be screened when entering the Canberra Parliament House.
Senator Bill Heffernan smuggles fake 'pipe bomb' into Parliament House, says building 'no longer secure' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-26/bill-heffernan-fake-pipe-bomb-parliament-house-security-concerns/5477468)
Liberal Senator Bill Heffernan smuggles pipe bomb into federal parliament | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/national/liberal-senator-bill-heffernan-smuggles-pipe-bomb-into-federal-parliament/story-fncynjr2-1226931492843)