Flight Hours - Cold War Era

[MiG21SM]

From the logbook of a HuAF captain who flew on MiG-21bis. The yearly flight-hours in the late '70s >

1977 - 133h 36m
http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=216407&d=1368282975

1978 - 171h 3m
http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=216408&d=1368283171

1979 - 139h 17m
http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=216409&d=1368283215

Repülések száma = Flights
Nappal = Daylight
Éjjel = Night
Befüggönyzött kabinban = under curtain
Felhőben = in clouds
Korlátozott látás... = at restricted visibility

Please comment with your data from the same period!
The most interesting: USAFE F-4, Luftwaffe F-4F, RAF FGR Mk2., Lightning etc

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I can give data from a decade later; 1989, last year of the Cold War (Tornado F3)

hrs
236 total
182 day
54 night
(6) twin-sticker
17 day IMC
16 night IMC

150 sorties

His average sortie length was 40 minutes, whereas mine was over an hour and a half.
I see he only had 26 hours in day / good weather,vs 165 hrs for me.

I would guess a large part of his sorties were GCI. I had 47 sorties on low level affiliation training or big exercises, and 10 dedicated D/ACT.

I note the Hungarian guy did more hours IMC at night in 1979 than he actually spent airborne* ;)
(*yes, I was the Sqn stats Officer for a while)

[2Planks]

F3 - and how many practice Q launches at weekends for the "Wing Commander's AFC". ;)

Knight's Templar this afty??

[wiggy]

RAF F4 ( AD), First Tourist...

Jun 81 - Jun 82
Day 160:55
Night 49:20

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

2Planks- One!, and he didn't get one!

[MiG21SM]

Thank you for your comments!

His average sortie length was 40 minutes, Or shorter..

I would guess a large part of his sorties were GCI He is from 2nd sqdn. Taszar airbase, MiG-21bis. Their primary task was 'dogfight'(most of the GCI work were done by the other sqdn. with MiG-21PF).
10 days in '78 May for example:
http://s15.postimg.org/f45ssz3y3/ppr.jpg

Rep-gep tipusa = aircraft type, 75 = MiG-21bis, 66 = MiG-21U, 69 = MiG-21UM
Melyik ulesbol lett vegrehajtva = from which seat on double seater, E = front, H = back-seat
A repules max. magassaga(km-ben) = max height of the flight in Km
Tenyleges idojaras = real weather
f. teto = cloud roof
f. alap = cloud base
borults = overcast
latas = visibility

The exercises >

533 gp. leharc = 2 vs 2 dogfight
500 "O" = low level, complex aerobatics, teaching from back-seat, over the airbase(with full afterburner from takeoff to landing, the 'famous' Soviet 500 )
226 = low level night intercept
212 = night from backseat as instructor
124/333 = attack on other airfield with full squadron
124/111/68 = attack on other airfield with full squadron
71/534 = 2 vs 2 dogfight
71/535 = 2 vs 2 dogfight
71/536 = 2 vs 2 dogfight
71/537 = 2 vs 2 dogfight
498 = complex aerobatics, ACM, as instructor from backseat
71/95 = low level intercept in pair
71/19/134 = chek flight in front seat - low level route flying
71/250 = low level intercept in clouds, night

and 10 dedicated D/ACT. Officially 0 for him. Just some occassional 'bouncing' with Hungary based Soviet MiG-23M,ML

I note the Hungarian guy did more hours IMC at night in 1979 than he actually spent airborne* :)

RAF F4 ( AD), First Tourist...

Jun 81 - Jun 82
Day 160:55
Night 49:20 Please give the Nr. of flights also!
Is this typical for Germany based RAF F-4 units also in that period? AFAIK the USAFE and Luftwaffe F-4 guys flew less in the late '70s.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Would be interested to know what they called a dogfight
Base Height?
Radar-Vis or just Visual?
How many splits in a sortie? 2/3?
How 'canned' the exercises were?

..and what did they call "low level"?

[Yellow Sun]

Those with an interest in this area would do worse than obtain a copy of Nigel Walpole's "Thinking the Unthinkable". Although it deals primarily with the former East German Air Force (EGAF) there is much that could be read across to the Hungarian Air force of the period.

YS

[MiG21SM]

Would be interested to know what they called a dogfight'Manőverező légiharc' = 'Manouvering air combat'

Base Height?For example > nr.500 started at 50-100m with horizontal 8, with full afterburner, full overload, vertical man's etc..bit something like an airshow. With full burner for 12-14min, must to pull really hard, average G checked by black-box tape after. If you switch off the full burner for a second or the average G's are too low: try again. Nothing tactical, just complex aerobatics at the deck, something like physical training for dogfight....

Radar-Vis or just Visual?Visual

How many splits in a sortie? 2/3?Most of the exercises in the series 482-592 came from the Soviet standard ACT program '500s'.
For example n.533-37, some scripted scenarios, 2 in each: you are on CAP, you are under attack, must to react with manouvers 'loop' 'knot' 'roof' ' shell' 'fork'
In other scenarios you are the attacker, in others free-fight etc.

..and what did they call "low level"?For example this: " 226 = low level night intercept " at the possible lowest height where your radar is working(21bis - no lookdawn capability :)

[MiG21SM]

I think the first RAF pilots who tasted the '21. 1992 Hungary:

http://s30.postimg.org/tchfomz01/ppr3.jpg

http://s14.postimg.org/4u80ukso1/ppr4.jpg

[TEEEJ]

Link back to Air Forces Monthly thread for further discussion.

Why didnt Warpac states adopt MiG-23 en masse and still relied on MiG-21 by 1990? - Page 3 (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?124081-Why-didnt-Warpac-states-adopt-MiG-23-en-masse-and-still-relied-on-MiG-21-by-1990&p=2023034#post2023034)

Why didnt Warpac states adopt MiG-23 en masse and still relied on MiG-21 by 1990? (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?124081-Why-didnt-Warpac-states-adopt-MiG-23-en-masse-and-still-relied-on-MiG-21-by-1990)

[RAFEngO74to09]

In 1977-1980, aircrew on the Phantom FGR2 Wing at RAF Wildenrath could get around 30 hours a month. A number who transferred in from a previous tour on the Phantom in Germany in the strike/attack/recce role were getting their 1000-hour Phantom badge part way through their 2nd tour. A major contributor to getting these hours were the MINEVALs, MAXEVALs and TACEVALs with an event occurring approximately every 4-6 weeks. During these, aircraft availability was maximized with up to 12 aircraft on a 10 AE squadron whenever it was possible to generate the in-use reserve from 2nd-line and also "arrange" for the aircraft due out to Major at RAF St Athan being retained for a few days after the replacement had been delivered. The normal modus operandi would be to have the QRA(I) aircraft + 7 others each on their own in 8 x Hardened Aircraft Shelters (HAS) and 4 x "spare" aircraft doubled up in a further 2 x HASs. It was not uncommon for each crew to get the 3 sorties allowed each day by RAFG regulations and I distinctly remember occasional waivers being obtained for a 4th sortie in a day. I also remember 92 Sqn getting more than 65 hours in one day and an average serviceability rate of 118% for a 3-day event (before the NATO rules were changed only allowing aircraft established - with tail numbers agreed at the start of the evaluation - to count).

[Wrathmonk]

It was not uncommon for each crew to get the 3 sorties allowed each day by RAFG regulations and I distinctly remember occasional waivers being obtained for a 4th sortie in a day. I also remember 92 Sqn getting more than 65 hours in one day

Not difficult when you didn't need to (have to) do any flight planning....;)

[27mm]

Guess you must have been one of those Bruggen wing targets then....

[Wrathmonk]

Guess you must have been one of those Bruggen wing targets then

Not Bruggen and only a target when the AD playmates had been given exact route, timings, squawk etc to help them find us .....;)

[MiG21SM]

In 1977-1980, aircrew on the Phantom FGR2 Wing at RAF Wildenrath could get around 30 hours a month. Do I understand correctly? Three consecutive years in Wildenrath = more than 1000 hours on the Phantom? Well...respect.

[60024]

<<Not difficult when you didn't need to (have to) do any flight planning...>>

And they usually briefed on Guard......:rolleyes:

[27mm]

Well maybe that happened once or twice, but LLAD in a Wilders jet was definitely the sport of kings, especially when the gingerbeers took the fletchers off.....:ok:

[Onceapilot]

Well done 27mm! You sure did good against all those LCR crews working up on singleton "no evasion" sorties.:ok:

OAP

[Onceapilot]

BTW 27mm, the sport of kings was ACM, or maybe not, in an F4?
Why are you not 20mm?:)

OAP

[RAFEngO74to09]

Mig21SM,

To clarify, what I meant was if a pilot had done part of a 2.5-year (single) / 3-year (married) tour elsewhere in Germany - for instance, when 92 Sqn formed in the AD role at RAF Wildenrath, some crews came from 2 Sqn at RAF Laarbruch when the Phantom FGR2 was replaced in the recce role by the Jaguar - they could get 1000 hours in 3-5 years total during their tour at Wildenrath. I do also remember that HQ RAFG was very concerned about "aircrew experience dilution rates" and would try to get only experienced crews. Initially, many of the pilots either had 1000+ hours in the Lightning or 1000+ hours in the Phantom in the strike/attack/recce roles. During my tour as JEngO, we next had just 2 first tour pilots out of 20 (NATO aircraft:crew ratio was 2:1) and after about 18 months we started to get some pilots from other areas including those whose immediately previous tour had been on the Bulldog or Jet Provost training aircraft. Interestingly, I have discovered on PPRuNe that one of our 1000+ hour ex-Lightning pilots did an exchange with the USAF on U-2 - didn't know that at the time !

Low level - probably 1977. Great machine (in it's day) - great people - great times !

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5496/12084268883_f92bbb7a47_b.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

That's a cracking pic RAFEngO :ok:

Any more ?

[Canadian Break]

That would be a certain RC then?

[RAFEngO74to09]

Coff,


Since you ask, and at the risk of thread creep, here's an "out with the old - in with the new" pic I found on-line which was taken at Gutersloh in Mar 77.


http://sg-etuo.de/media/xpb/grondstein/Phan_92_XV489_V_Grondstein.jpg


We also had the first trial all grey Phantom FGR2 - there was an earlier one in the UK but it had a black radome initially. Whenever possible, I had it housed in the HAS that could be viewed from the Aircrew Crewroom so it could be seen by our numerous visitors - caused quite a at the time when all the other NATO F-4s were in various green/grey/brown disruptive schemes.


http://sg-etuo.de/media/xpb/grondstein/Phan_XV460_W_Grondstein.jpg


I arranged for this photo to be taken one night - note the positioning of spare missiles and tanks in the HAS:


http://hostmypicture.com/images/92sqnggug.jpg

[CoffmanStarter]

Many thanks RAFEngO ... Still a "good looker" IMHO :ok:

[RAFEngO74to09]

Canadian Break,


No, actually R Sh.....s - "Guns". In the public domain on the RAF U-2 Pilot's thread and various US websites.


RC did also fly the U-2 earlier - I know who you mean - probably a wg cdr by 1977 though - name rings a bell - he might have been OC Ops Wg at Wildenrath.

[MiG21SM]

> RAFEngO74to09
Thank you very much for your detailed reply! In different training systems, with diff. aircraft types only the flight-hours is a bit relative data. Can you tell me the average no. of flights/crew/year in your time at Wildenrath?

Of course any photos from that period is very interesting too...
Here is one from my archives, 1972 GDR Damgarten airbase, MiG-21SMT's from the 33.iap.(Wittstock)
http://s16.postimg.org/88tozrz45/smt_damg.jpg

p.s.: HuAF was the smallest and 'poorest' in the WP, AFAIK the Soviets flew much more, more exercises, more live-firings etc.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Mig21SM,


Nice photo. I'm sorry I don't have that detail but one of the posters on this forum was a Navigator at Wildenrath at the same time and has written a book about his experiences on the Phantom during the Cold War. The Pilot and Navigator normally flew as a constituted crew so his hours would be near enough for comparison.


The Phantom in Focus<BR>A Navigator?s Eye on Britain?s Cold War Warrior<BR><I>David Gledhill</I> - Detailed item view - Fonthill Media (http://www.fonthillmedia.com/article_978-1-78155-048-9/The-Phantom.html)


He might be willing to answer when he sees this thread.

[Geehovah]

Thanks for the plug Jengo! Chapter 7 covers the RAFG flying.

Flying in the low flying areas in Germany at the time was free play. If you were cleared to play you played! If someone wasn't combat ready they waggled off. If they were, they didn't! Some played at 250 feet, some played at 500 feet, some struggled to stay below the light aircraft level of 1500 feet.

I got 850 hours on my first tour but that slowed down at Wildenrath when I started pulling duties in the tower and on the desk. I finished with 1550 hours at the end of that tour and 2000 hours when I finished on the F4 after an instructional tour. It all depended on the squadron and the role you played. The Boss flew the most!

Most of our flying was at low level. We flew the medium level stuff at night. The weather was normally terrible but it didnt stop flying. The only people down low in those conditions were normally the RAF -known as Brit VFR. We saved ACT and gunnery for Cyprus and Deci mostly. Mind you, the average day in the low flying area was as close to ACT as you could get.

The exchange pilot yu were struggling to remember was "Uncle Ron" (Ron S)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/DeeGee/HASLoop.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DeeGee/media/HASLoop.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/DeeGee/FinalCover.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DeeGee/media/FinalCover.jpg.html)

[27mm]

Cracking read, Gladys; brought back many fond memories of a great jet and great times operating it with the finest blokes...:ok:

[54Phan]

I agree, it's a very good book. I enjoyed reading it very much.

[maxburner]

Very interesting to see the other side's poiint of view once in a while.
Talking of hours, I got my 1000 hrs F4 one year into my second tour.

It's a great shame that this, and many other debates are devalued by people like Wrathmonk and their infantile attempts at banter.

[Minnie Burner]

From my logbook: 92 Sqn around 1980 for a full month's work, average 22hrs from 17 sorties.

[Wrathmonk]

devalued by people like Wrathmonk and their infantile attempts at banter

That'll be a bite than :D

[just another jocky]

Great thread, thanks.

Nothing finer than seeing the F4s CAP'ing over the Peheim mast. Lock 'em up, run away and live to fight another day.

:D