Dear Richard (merged thread)

[nodelay]

Dear Richard,

Thankyou very much for your letter, I can't remember the last time you wrote to me. I'm so pleased that when things are getting you down you feel you can open up to me.

There really was no need though to remind me of the extra few pennies you are offering. Might I suggest that you check out the PPRuNe website, where you will find much comment on just that subject.

I was most interested to learn that you are at last comparing NATS to the airline companies. You know, the bit about airline companies not offering any basic pay increases for their staff. Years ago we (ATCOs) used to earn a similar amount throughout the salary pay scale to our airline friends, but there is now a huge gap between the top of our scale and the top of theirs. For years we have been argueing for similar remuneration but you have never listened and more to the point never provided. So why start comparing now?

I also find it incredible that you suggest a downturn in traffic of 12% and revenue of 17% should justify such a measly increase in basic pay. Again you dare to compare! In the past when levels have been up by 8% pa and we have asked for a similar rise in pay you have flatly rejected what we have put on the table. So now that the tables have turned, why should we accept what you are putting on the table?

You must come and visit my unit, where I think you'll find traffic levels are most definately on the up. For sure , they are not up to pre 911 levels, but our responsibilities are exactly the same and the important thing to note is that TRAFFIC LEVELS ARE INCREASING.

I could go on by talking about Swanwick and the continued extra workload this keeps putting on Area/Approach and Twr controllers everytime it breaks down, but I'm sure I'd be preaching to the converted!!

Once again, thankyou for your letter,

Yours sincerely

COLLEAGUE;)

[1261]

..... and when you've finished that visit, Richard, come to visit our unit. Traffic here is up by 12% on last year and we haven't even touched the summer peak yet!

[Expeditedescent]

My GOD I could not believe what I was reading in my mail this morning ! :eek:

Who the hell does he think he is sending me management propaganda crap to my home address :mad:

What a complete waste of time this letter was, however it does show that management are prepared for industrial action and are lining up their tactics:

Look at the line about PCS and Prospect Engineers branch recommending acceptance........already they are attempting to divide the shop floor.

There are also digs at ATCO pay.....rising ahead of inflation and UK average earnings (no mention of traffic levels though.......or comparisons to collegues around the World).

Also more hot air about "listening".......didn't we haer this when TAG took over, and as usual more promises of talk but no words of action.

Interesting that as traffic levels return to pre 911 levels (note too how he focuses on transatlantic traffic but cleverly forgets the rise in domestic traffic..........EZY, GOE RYR to name only a few), some 9 months later we are still getting the 911 excuse........when will it end: 5 years from now "Ah but remember Sept 11th" ?

I would love Dicky to quantify what "Most airlines" means in relation to no basic pay increase for staff, and which airlines he is referring to and where he gets his facts from. A sweeping statement like that cannot be made without any basis of fact, and I would like to see his evidence.

"The recovery , if it can be called that"........Hey Rich, try plugging in on TMA on a morning shift.........stupid, idiotic comment from someone obviously well detached from operational reality.

I must admit to having a bleeding heart for all the poor managers who will not be getting a pay rise this year. Still I am sure all those cushy bonuses will more than cover the lack of a rise on their already substantial salaries.

I just cannot believe the arrogance of this man, sending me unsolicited junk mail to my home..........
I think we should organise a letter writing/email campaign to Mr. Everitt informing him of OUR position together with some operational realities..............

GRRRRRRR :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[BEXIL160]

Dear Richard,

You ain't learned much have you? At the begining of this FIASCO that is PPP and TAG you sent us all a little postcard welcoming us to a company that we already worked for..... and WASTED money in the process.

Here we are several months on and YOU PERSONALLY are still WASTING the companies money on printing and sending stuff by first class mail, to our HOME addresses.

The company is alegedly in deep doggy doo, loosing money hand over fist, and here YOU are spending cash like water on a cheap attempt to have a dig at the ATCOs.

Now, personally I object deeply to you contacting me at home. NATS only has my attention when I'm at work. You have no right to contact me in my place of residence and I EXPECT AN APOLOGY.

Too bad that you had "break the bad news to (your) managers that they will not recieve a pay increase for this year". That MUST have been SOOOO tough for you. Telling them they would all be in line for nice bonuses can't have been so bad though, can it?

As others have said, we were promised a new start, a listening and pro-active management. Well dear Richard, from where I sit, NOTHING has changed. The same managers are STILL in place, STILL doing sweet FA, STILL stuck with their heads in the sand (or where the sun don't shine).

Oh and by the way, we are in a SERVICE industry. In any service industry the biggest asset for any business is it's staff (you will have learned all this in MBA school, won't you?). Treat your staff like sh*t and you will NOT HAVE A BUSINESS for very long... something else you are begining to learn.

Best wishes for your inevitable appearance in front of Ms. Dunwoody.

BEX

[Nogbad the Bad]

Nothing changes..................

......no, I'm wrong.

There never used to be talk of "how long have you got to go" and "great, only x amount of time until I can get out of this cra**y organisation".

That never used to happen, but it does now......I hear it all the time. Staff just can't wait to get out...........

And the reason ??

EVER INCREASING BAD MANAGEMENT

It was bad before.....but we still have the self same idiots "in charge" - still, it seems, giving the same bad advice to their (so-called) "highers".....

Tell you what, why don't they just rename NATS as "Titanic II - the Sequel" because sure as eggs is eggs, it's going to sink fast unless Mr Everitt bucks his ideas up !!!!!!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Nogbad the Bad]

I haven't had this letter yet......but when I do, it's a simple solution.

"RETURN TO SENDER"

:D :D :D :D :D :D

[Minesapint]

The thing is the majority of engineers/not ATCO's that I know seem to think its a good deal and my ATCO friends definately do not. Seems we are dividing ourselves in some ways?

Personally, I think its what we are going to get and if we are cash stapped a whopping pay rise may put us all where we don't want to be - up for grabs!

This two year deal of 6% is ok but NATS management (if they are still there) needs to gird the loins for the next pay round. UK ATCO's ( and us trusses) need a rise to reflect the upper end of the European average 10-20%.

Advice is free and knowing I can expect a good kicking I say accept this with a caveat that for senior management, next time it will be far from this easy.

[shakinhed]

Richard , oh , Richard

Disbelief

1. that you sent me a personal letter at great expense at a time when the company is having a pensions holiday

2. that you expect me to believe that I've had generous pay rises over the years and that my pals down the pub haven't done better than me!
Hmmm , I think not.

Have you any conception how hard we've had to work in the last few years?

Look , we didn't want privatisation but we've got it so lets make it work and treat each other with respect and honesty.

As CE of NATS you must have looked at the business plan ; we ATCOs did.
At Unit meetings prior to privatisation , we pointed out the weaknesses and looked with disbelief at the charging formula that the CAA will impose.
We were stonewalled - "not a problem" , they said.
Surely TAG (Britain's Most Able Business Minds) knew what they were doing when they gave Gordon Brown the cheque!

Well of course 9/11 came along and revenues went down.
Revenues also went down because of Flow Restrictions to accomodate LACC Training.
Things like that happen - Gulf War , Oil Crisis etc
In contrast for many of us Traffic levels/workload increased significantly
That's history.
All indicators show substantial growth in the Aviation sector in the next 2 years.

By now you will be aware that we face a real shortage of Controllers.
It is at crisis level as we speak and many older controllers ( those your managers expect to stay until 60 ) are lining up to get out.
A substantial pay rise is required simply to address this issue and promote the recruitment of high calibre trainees that would otherwise drift into flying or the city.

I am pleased to see that you wish to " recognise and value" your ATCOs.
The ONLY way to prove that is to pay us a BASIC SALARY fit for the task at levels equal to our European Colleagues with fringe benefits to match.

The current offer is derisory.
I trust that my Union Reps have made that clear.

[vwatchtc]

UK controllers are not resposible for the way that Nats is funded, traffic growth is already increasing, last Thursday up by 3%, and most controllers think this is going to be the busiest summer ever. We are some of the worst paid controllers in Europe, our payments for unsocial hours and for training are derisory. The Managers are not getting a pay rise this year , OK but the ones in TC got big bonuses on the back of the introduction of new sectors . eg East and Capital, for which they had llittle or no input. It's time that managers realised that their staff are the most important aspect of the company. I know that morale is bad at Nerc. but it's not that great at WD.

[Nogbad the Bad]

NICE post shakinhead (and you too, BEX)

Such a shame that it will all be ignored........will it, Mr Everitt ???.....will it be ignored ?????

Do you KNOW that the morale of your staff is at an all-time low ??????

Or perhaps you don't care ???????

[Spotter]

Minesapint....how many times have we done the "well OK, but just you wait til next year"?

TOO MANY, that's how many

It makes my blood boil to hear this sort of defeatist tosh from people who moan & whinge but when it comes down to it haven't got the balls to stand up for what they want.

Keep your powder dry if you like, tell you what why not just save it til bonfire night & make a few bangers with it & scare the local cats & dogs. Cos your empty "wait til next year" threats certainly won't scare anyone.

In case you hadn't guessed I will be voting to reject the pay offer, which no matter how you add it up DOES NOT make 6% over 2 years.

[Ayr-Rage]

Fellow ATCOs and ATSAs, as mentioned in previous replies, do not forget how we got shafted in previous years when traffic levels went up by more than double the percentage pay rises we received, along with the fiasco of the "bonus" that never paid out !
I am in the ATCO camp, and support Prospect in rejecting the offer, and I hope the ATSAs will give 2 fingers to PCS and not vote to accept it either.
On the day when the CAA decided that NATS pleading poverty was not all it seemed, it was somewhat ironic that we all received a personal copy of the letter from Mr E. That's another penny-per-letter that Consignia cannot afford to lose either !

[Dances with Boffins]

I'm with Ayr on this. If the company carries on paying less than the rest of Europe, during a global ATCO shortage, it doesn't take an MBA to work out where all the poor down-trodden shags are going to head for. The rest of us will be left to work even harder, for less reward, as the traffic keeps rising, and the rate of retirement out-strips recruitment at an exponential rate. We pay to train all these ATCOs, then Johnny Foreigner reaps the rewards. The Hurn-factory is pumping out newbies as fast as it can, yet the numbers on the sectors continues at a level far less than is comfortable. This pay offer will only make this situation worse. My 'union' says I should accept this offer. Like hell.:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Loki]

The last time I got a letter which started : "Dear Colleague", it was from that useless fat git Prescott (attempting to sell the idea of privatisation). It made me just as angry as the letter I got this morning.

[chiglet]

Why not email Mr Eveready directly? His adds is on that "letter".
Colleague, he says....well I have
A. Never met him
B. Never worked with him
So how can I be his "Colleague"?:confused:
Funny but in the same post, I got my PCS ballot paper :eek: No doubt which way I am voting:D
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[The Big Cheese]

Oh dear boys and girls, if you don't like it you can always go and work somewhere else can't you............ oops, I forgot, most of you can't because you aren't qualified to do so.:D

[PPRuNe Radar]

Shouldn't we be concentrating on a professional riposte to the offer made by the company ?? We're all frustrated but I am not sure that trivialising does us any good either in the eyes of the public or with the management whom we will have to soon do battle with.

Chiglet says

Colleague, he says....well I have
A. Never met him
B. Never worked with him
So how can I be his "Colleague"?

Well Chiglet, can't call you a colleague of mine as I have never met you or worked with you .... ;) I am not sure if that is a good or a bad thing !!! I don't know you do I ? :)

Others also seem to be affronted by receiving the letter at home .... you can bet that some of these same people would be whinging like hell if it was distributed at work and they didn't find out till they got back after their rest days. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. I at least give him credit for passing the message on directly to everyone involved, though that is as far as I go.

I'm not for one minute supporting the offer being made or the excuses being used to get out of making us a pay award which we all deserve after the performance we have put in and relatively low remuneration provided over the years. But let's focus our energies and fight for the issues that matter, not dilute them by getting personal and mired down in the petty stuff.

Just my opinion, as valid as anyone elses.

[Nogbad the Bad]

The Big Cheese..............please be so kind as to drop me your name and address, would you.......I feel like paying you a visit.

No doubt you will come back with yet another sarcastic comment......I await your tome with baited breath !!!!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Minesapint]

Empty - hmmmm.

Have you ever been on strike? I have - twice and only once for dosh. I do not give in and I am NOT defeatist. I am realistic though. It does not matter if the money is available or not - we will not get anymore this year. We could go for 2.2% now and renegotiate in January?

The excuses are all in place for TAG. September 11th, NAS and LACC system failures, a pi$$ed off public sick of being delayed, constant negative media attention. How would they react to an ATC strike? When we fought off Serco, and believe me Prescott wanted them in afterall, he needs a non-executive directorship too, it was because of safety fears and the public backed us. On your proposed agenda they would definately not.

This would prove 'crap management' to the government and financial institutions and we would be in Sercoville before you knew it. The first you would know of it would be a load of redundancy notices for strikers no pension, LESS money, longer hours, less leave. You may call TAG 'crap' and in some ways, especially concerning the replacement of dinasaur NATS old-time management, I agree, but compared to the alternatives they are saints. No changes to pensions, no salary reduction - a rise even! No major changes to working practices and no changes to generous redundancy payments.

If the ATCO's go one strike (let me see now, when was the last time THAT happened) I will join you. I just think it ill advised.

[Expeditedescent]

Mineasapint,

I really cannot believe anyone out there seriously believes that SERCO would have anything to do with NATS.

I mean look at the state the company is in.......SERCO would be insane to pump large amounts of cash into the company for no gauranteed return. Most of the cost savings that were easily done have already been done, there is nothing for them to gain from investing in crippled company.

I am amazed people are still believeing that being taken over by SERCO is a threat or possibility....this really is a false scare argument.

As ATCOs we have an exceptionally strong bargaining position at the moment.....the company cannot afford to have us go out on strike, and they know it.
As has been mentioned in other threads today there seems to be a fair amount of money rolling around NATS coffers.......so why shouldn't we claim a fair and reasonable reward?

The excuses TAG mentioned are nothing to do with us......we did not cause or affect any of them, why the hell should we pay for them...........I mean when traffic was rising at 8-10% did we hear management say "Things are going well, how about an 8% pay rise this year?"
We didn't profit from good times, why should we suffer from bad times?
To follow your(their) analagy through should train drivers on GNER or WAGN have their pay affected due to the Potters Bar disaster?
How about a pay cut for Air China pilots after the 767 crash in Korea?
US controllers have just had a pay rise (much larger than our paltry offer) and I would suggest that the US was harder hit by 911 than anyone.

We can't continue to carry the can for other people's problems.......we are under paid, undervalued, treated like utter s**t, overworked, blah blah blah........its talked about all the time.
I fully support the BEC on this matter, I am delighted they have finally taken a stand on an important matter.....pay is not just for the short term, for many of us it is the over-riding issue for our next 30 working years.

I am always amazed at us NATS ATCOs at how we seem to have incredibly low aspirations, and devalue ourselves......WHY ????

[downto5]

I agree with the main points in this thread, however would it not be better to reply to Mr Everitt directly? His e-mail address is at the top of the letter.
Short e-mails, without too many personal attacks;)
That way he may read a few and the numbers will reflect our strong feelings.

[A4547]

Well Expeditedescent,

You can take what you have written, print it on a letter to Mr E and sign my name on the bottom. These are exactly the pertinent points we should be making to counter the management drivel.

I seriously believe that we really must get every single controller to write back to Mr E, well its only being poilite isn't it. I don't think e-mailing would be effective as we all know how easily they can be delited without being read. However a letter from each and every one of us would send the loudest and most defiant message management that is possible at this time. Urge your unioin reps to organise this tomorrow and make sure EVERYBODY has written back by Friday latest and if possible the unioins should get us his home address. I mean its not as if it would take us long to do, you could knock it up in a break but it will send an clear and unignorable (sorry dont know if that's a real word) signal.

[terrain safe]

Downto5

I agree and I am at the moment typing a letter to tricky dicky to be e-mailed and followed up by snail mail. Also I am going to send a copy to Mrs Dunwoody to show how I feel and explain that many of us do feel the same and perhaps she should visit PPRuNe to see what we all think.

I cannot believe that people can vote in favour of this. What was the best payrise we have had in the last 10 years? I don't think we have had more than 3% in this period and so we have fallen behind the average and the rest of the world. I say let us all resign on the same day so that within 2 to 2 1/2 months when excess leave kicks in, there will be no one left to work. We only come back on improved conditons and many get jobs elsewhere and then the ATC system would be crippled all because the government decided to push through PPP. Or would this be a conspiracy theory?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[BEXIL160]

Minesapint....

Why are you so adamant that we will get no more this year? Just curious because it seems to me (and the CAA) that the money really is there.

Mr. Moderator...
Yes your opinion is as valid as everyone else's. I happen not to agree with you. Everitt had no URGENT need to contact me AT HOME, and certainly has no justification for using 1st Class Postage. This is pure waste... but now we know that the company ain't so hard up so it doesn't matter quite so much.

I detect a certain amount of desperation in Richards letter. As Expeditedescent has said, the Airlines cannot afford any more disruption... paying our claim is small potatoes by comparison with what they would lose should any industrial action occur.

BTW I did not make this personal. By writing to ME at home the NATS CE did.

Rgds BEX

[terrain safe]

Bex are you sure your'e not me as I seem to generally agree with you on most things?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[mysteryman]

Hi all

Very honest answers
and by the sounds of it
very Pi$$ed off staff
mail him using Ghostmail 5.1
and give 'Kenny' BOTH BARRELS

Mm:cool:

[BEXIL160]

Nope, I'm definitely me. How do I know? There's a beer in my fridge with my name on it, not yours :p

rgds BEX

[Buster the Bear]

So do you think Circo have gone for good, do so at your peril! Circo have had access to masses of financial and personnel issues whilst considering a cash injection.

NATS has been financed via venture capital. We have seen how 3i have moved Go on for a clear profit. In a couple of years time, if NATS is still partially privatised, the banks will want another fast buck. Who can they sell it to? Remember easy looked at Go last year and said no, then paid good money for them due probably to the regulation at that time of the industry.

NATS staff should not be worrying about 6% now, but of the future in a couple of years, when Circo could become the possible owners of the private part of NATS. The BAA cannot pull out of their contracts for where would they get the staff from unless those controllers and support staff resigned and joined the BAA, remember the staff in the centres that vector aircraft onto the approach, the BAA would need radar rooms or pay HEAVILY increased charges.

A previous post intimated that if controllers lost their jobs with NATS where would they go? So if a Circo'd NATS cut your salary and increased your hours up to a legal limit what would you do. Strike action threatened does not work, for not enough staff will actually support it. A cut in salary makes up for a loss of ones job. This is how companies like Circo exist.

I have read the letter, although I am not a staff member, and it appears to be a typical propaganda exercise, but think of it from my view point. The airlines control NATS, they are themselves battling against their own tide of problems. They want investment to reduce delays and enhance capacity, therefore increasing their own profit potential. The CAA have not allowed increased charges on the scale required by NATS (Or their banks), this affects their ability to invest. The bankers decide in a few months to rid themselves of NATS shares, who will offer good money?

The airlines and airport users of NATS will not want this, but if the banks decide to, it will happen. Cassani had no input into 3i selling off her beloved Go.

Just a few Circo thoughts?

[terrain safe]

SERCO SERCO SERCO Sierra Echo Romeo Charlie Oscar.:D :D :D

[BEXIL160]

Presumably you mean SERCO?

Anyway, I disagree with your assertion that Strike Action will not work as "not enough people will support it".

One) The feeling is more militant that you seem to think.

Two) The disruption caused in one 24 hour period would be enough to service our pay asperations. Even if we only took action for ONE day and then accepted the current offer, NATS and the Airlines would be BOTH out of pocket. (I do NOT advocate this at all)

NATS took a sensible line when it came to settling the EDS contract dispute out of court, when it became apparent that a court imposed settlement would have cost MILLIONS and lead to more embarrasing revelations. A sensible attitude to settling our pay claim is now called for, as the alternative, like the EDS court action, will cost MILLIONS.

rgds BEX

[professor yaffle]

I could not believe the affront of the man when I got this mornings post! Apart from the bullying tone and "everyone else is going to accept so you should too" tone, frankly if we so short of cash surely it should have either been on the company e-mail or internal post! Dick could not have found a surer way to make me vote no!

Quite apart from that, at work we also had a visit from our manager, while plugged in, to ask how we all felt about the pay deal and which element none of us liked about it! Apparently we are having a visit from Human Resources (!) to talk to us about the pay deal, and talk us through our feelings!!!

Seems to me that management could be a little bit worried here!
Don't remember getting a billet-doux during last pay round!

[Scott Voigt]

This is all rather interesting stuff and I for one am happy that you can't yet take it private on the NATS forum <G>...

Over here if the employer would have written us or even talked to us about what was good for us during pay negotiations we would have filed charges against the employer since it is not allowed...

I wish all of you luck in your endevours... By the way, I am sitting here reading all of this while watching a group of our controllers in Washington DC for the week. We put on a gathering once a year where we get a LOT of controllers together who are legislative activists and we decend on Capitol Hill and talk with our legislators for the week about what WE want to see happen with avaiation... If I find the web site that you can see it on I'll post it in a thread. It's quite long and about two hours...

regards

[rodan]

This is all rather interesting stuff and I for one am happy that you can't yet take it private on the NATS forum

Just a thought, perhaps it is important that NATS pay issues are debated in public. To a certain extent, NATS pay levels are what the non-state providers use as a benchmark. This could affect us all.

[ferris]

Remember Gents (to quote a negotiation instructor)

"You don't get what you deserve, you get what you settle for."

Think about it.

[Don't Look Now]

Dear Lads/Lasses,

Just a little note to explain what has happened here at Skyguide(formerly swisscontrol) as by reading your comments it reminds me of recent procedings here.

We had negociated a pay rise of 6% over 2 years, but then panicking management went back on their offer and wrote to us (at home) claiming that a lack of money and existing financial obligations meant that they had to rethink the situation. They even used the threat of job losses to impose their views.

After having voted on the subject most ATCOs bended to the pressure and voted yes to the measures which included freezing the normal yearly incremental pay scale rises!

I for one voted no and was infuriated to receive yet another letter at home explaining how the yes voters were (I qoute) MATURE in their choice, implying of course that the rest of us were not. Great respect of employees!

Now here I am with increasing bills, increasing medical insurance(no NHS here) and stuck with the same pay.

My advice to you is to vote NO NO NO to the offer. If your union were to use some good PR you would have the public on your side. They, as you, do not wan't another railtrack etc etc.

Good luck.:(

[eyeinthesky]

Well well...

All I can say so far is I'm with those who think that we should reject the offer and be prepared to back it up with industrial action if necessary.

Let's just consider the SERCO / sacking for industrial action scenario for a minute:

Any company which takes on NATS will surely have to give guarantees in terms of reducing delays, increasing capacity, reducing charges etc. At Swanwick, we are now often working up to the maximum period allowed by SRATCOH and taking minimum fatigue breaks. Even doing this, we are not able to offer the maximum capacity of Swanwick due to insufficient staff (not able to open S33 for example). To sack ANYBODY, whether as a new owner trying to cut costs or as revenge for industrial action, will make all those required guarantees unachievable for YEARS. Any reduction in training time or increase in working time will require protracted legal negotiation with the likes of SRG or the CAA (who yesterday told NATS where to stick their latest cry for help!). It simply won't happen, and that is why Mr Everitt is trying to forestall further action.

I must say that I don't actually object to receiving a letter at home, although second class post would seem a cheaper option (and if they can give me a personalised label on the envelope why can't they put my name at the top of the letter?). The letter reads very reasonably, and you can bet that there are those who were not so sure who will say: 'OK then, let's give you another chance'.
However, as many have said before, this is the time we need to make a stand. The place is creaking at the seams, and the local management seem incapable of doing anything other than firefighting to keep it stumbling along as we lurch from one near-crisis to another. By NATS' own admission yesterday, they have £50m+ surplus on their investment plan to develop the business. The most important part of any business is its workforce, and if you get that on a secure and happy footing, then the rest is relatively easy. The flexibility you need to introduce changes is there and so on. It certainly isn't now!! Spend the money and get a happy workforce, and then see what the difference is.

It'll be interesting to see what the mood is when I go back to work tomorrow..:rolleyes:

To the person, whose name I forget, who said 'go and work somewhere else. Oh, you can't 'cos you're not qualified' (sic), all I would say is that if you are one of these Approach and/or Tower ATCOs and you think that makes you bomb-proof, then think again. There are far more people who hold your type of ratings than hold mine, so I suggest you are the one who would be an easy target for replacement if SERCO or whoever were to take over. :D

[sony backhander]

One thing Mr E, doesn't 2.2+3.7% = 5.9% NOT 6%?
Small point but worth noting.

[BEXIL160]

Not quite...

2.2% + 3.7% = 5.98% Overall

Still not 6%, though.

BEX

[It will be alright!!]

Just a point relating to Richards quote that the avaiation industry recovery "IF WE CAN CALL IT THAT" is proving as slow as predicted, I and i believe many of my colleagues would not agree with that at 7.00am on a monday morning, I also would like to point richard to the advert at the top of this forum, 150 737's for Ryan creating how many jobs!!!! why not Make it 149 and use the money to pay atco's what we are worth. The recovery does not not seem that slow!!!!!

[Bright-Ling]

Look on the bright side......

If you think that you are maxxed out now - remember that we should be 12% busier!!!

[Cuddles]

As one of the employees who has experienced the "We've made a mistake, but you can sign the new contract, or you can leave" debacle (Believe me it really did happen) I'm willing to go to all the trouble of finding out what was in the letter and replying via email and snail. Trouble is, I'm away from home for a while, and I can't vote in the pay deal either, could some of you put 2 crosses in the rejection box for me. Either that, or can any of those attending my wedding on Saturday bring me a copy of the letter, I just need my ballot paper.

You can't do the best job if you're at serious odds with the management structure. Also if you don't feel valued, you don't give value.

[driver 8]

Cuddles,

You're not the only one who hasn't seen the contents of the letter, our incompetent leader sent the letter to an address I have'nt lived at for 3 years, strange really when you consider all my other mail has made it to the correct address.

See you when you get back, hope you're enjoying yourself.

D8

[Bright-Ling]

Interesting to see which database they used for the mail out.

Got mine a day late - probably due to my address having the words SOUTHAMPTON put in the middle.

As I am not even in Hampshire no wonder postie was confused!!

Maybe I am due a posting!!!!!!

B-L

[Buster the Bear]

So what kind of rise would actually keep NATS controllers happy

[Dan Dare]

The Times 22 May 2002 (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,172-303502,00.html?gavalidate)

"the Civil Aviation Authority said Nats had overstated its financial difficulties and was still due to make a 10 per cent return on its assets despite losing £190 million from the slump in demand for air travel after September 11. The CAA calculates that Nats will make up £163 million of the loss through extra efficiency gains and revenue increases.

Doug Andrew, the CAA’s economic regulation director, said that the remaining £27 million would be more than covered by a £79 million “buffer” agreed with the Government. "

That leaves £52 million in the kitty for pay raises! ;)

[Greebson]

Now I'm feeling even more undervalued, I've STILL not got my letter. :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Spiggit]

Dunno why he bothered. I'm not an ATCO and I'm not (shock, horror, gasp) a member of the union (must be about the only one).

Meanwhile in other industries, e.g. maufacturing, people are given the work of two or three people who have become "cost savings". Thus equating to, possibly an instant 200% increase in work load. And all for the same pay they started on, or even a pay cut! This is a feeling that the ATCE's and suport staff will be getting used to over the next few years :mad: (20% in the next slash and burn I read). So you could argue that ATCE's et all are all ready paying for the pay rise, and will pay for next years.

Thus 6%, sorry 5.98% aint a lot, but it's better than nothing (or a p45 :o )

Still, give it enough years and the boot will be on the other foot. ATCO's being worked out of the system by technology. No you say? Tell that to the bloke who used to be a signal man... :eek:

I will now donn my flame proof suit. :)

[alloneword]

So Spiggit,

if we follow your logic ATCOs should not fight for a better rise 'cause we'll all be out of a job anyway at some indeterminate date in the future?

and, therefore, we should all kowtow to whatever miserly offer management think they can get away with?

by the way, still a fair number of signalmen (women) in this country; they just don't all sit in cosy little signal boxes anymore.

and for what it's worth the average signalman earns about 90% of a train drivers salary - probably a greater percentage than the average ATCO compared to a pilots salary.

never mind I shouldn't worry that my salary is eroding in real terms, I should just be grateful I've got a job...

[Spiggit]

No.

Just contemplating the facts, and that things could be much worse than they are. And who knows what the future holds for us, ATCO, ACTE or ANother?

In the event of ATCOs pursuing their sectional pay claim, why should peeps who are not part of that pay claim vote down what has been offered to them?

Anyway, my thoughts don't matter cos I don't have a vote. ;)

[Crotalus]

Nice one Spiggot ...not a member of the union but happy to live on the backs of everyone else ...MAGGOT!!!

[nodelay]

Spiggit,

....things could be much worse than they are.

Look on the Intranet (assuming you have access(NATS etc..)) under Ops and Performance, and you will see that there was a day in April this year where the daily movements were up on the figures for last year.

THINGS COULD ALWAYS BE WORSE. But actually things are getting better, so don't be so pessimistic.

Keep going around thinking like that and you undervalue yourself, your job and play straight into the hands of the purse string holder, who will agree whole heartedly with you then go away and have a good laugh and rub his hands.

[250 kts]

One of the first signs that NATS may be preparing for a scrap may be the reason for something I recently heard.

Manager ATC at Swanwick is about to seek permission from SRG for sectors to be operated with just a single ATCO performing the T AND P role. There would be a 50% reduction in the Target Sector Flows to allow this to happen.

I would implore EVERY ATCO at Swanwick to go to their manager right now and tell them that they are not prepared to operate the system like this under any circumstances even if SRG give the go-ahead.

If ever there was a time for us to work this system as we were trained to do then this is it. Management are on the rack over staffing and they know it-let's stick together and get the par rise we deserve. Also speaking to a number of ATSAs, I wouldn't be surprised if they vote against their BEC and reject this s**t offer.

[BEXIL160]

Not sure that ATSSD would even contemplate agreeing to single person operation.

No safety case you see.

Next up, even if you were to TRY to operate electronically on your own, may I suggest that 90% reduction in traffic is probably more reasonable.

Please don't forget. The Airlines get punished NOW when we have one or two people sick. Imagine a day or two of industrial action. You don't even NEED everyone to come out, and yes, I accept that some would not. It wouldn't really matter. The majority of ATCOs would. The system would not operate at a level anything close to what the airlines NEED.

The nub is simple. Settling the pay claim IS a LOT CHEAPER THAN ONE DAYS INDUSTRIAL ACTION. Are you listening airline members of TAG (and those airlines that aren't). Present us with a REASONABLE offer and you can put all this to rest, NOW.

Rgds BEX

[Christopher James]

250kts

"If ever there was a time for us to work this system as we were trained to do then this is it. Management are on the rack over staffing and they know it-let's stick together and get the pay rise we deserve."

I agree with you on all counts but I wonder if we should be talking about staffing/systems operation and pay rises in the same breath.

If it is wrong to suggest that you operate NERC in the manner being sought (which it is) then levels of pay have nothing to do with that. Are you going to say "give us a decent pay rise and we will accept the manning" even if that manning is dangerous? No, of course not: That would be trading safety and money which is not your intention. But if you talk of these issues in the same paragraph it suggests otherwise. Each argument ought to be fought on its own merits.

CJ

[Findo]

T & P bandboxed is perfectly workable. Only significant factor is someone accepts the safety accountabilities for the traffic loading for the sector. That will not be the sector ATCO.

[torpids]

Sound points Christopher. You will get public and media support for any action which concerns safety issues but little over pay. Blair can't wait to look tough on unions, especially people he can portray as highly paid (close on 3 times the national average) and only actually working c30 hours a week.

[Undercover]

Good point CJ !

It may be a bit late in the day to make this point too, but I've read plenty about how grossly underpaid ATCOs in NATS believe themselves to be... I'm not going to argue with that either way... but I would suggest to all those going to vote against the current pay deal that your aspirations to significantly raise the level of remuneration for your job should not be addressed through an anual "COST OF LIVING" pay rise like this.
The intention of this pay deal is merely to keep current salary packages up to date with the increasing cost of day to day life. If you feel so strongly that the basic pay structure of the company is wrong then you should be looking for a re-negotiation of the pay grading structure, similar to that undertaken by non-operational staff a year or 2 ago.

As CJ has already pointed out. The best way to lose these arguments is to confuse them all and end up just sounding like a "typical moaning ATCO" -- not my words of course ;) :p

[Findo]

Undercover. you say -


The intention of this pay deal is merely to keep current salary packages up to date with the increasing cost of day to day life.

Who says that ? The annual pay round addresses all issues associated with pay and not just a cost of living element otherwise we would never need a negotiation. Why otherwise would the unions submit pay claims for raising unit pay for Stansted, extending London weighting, rises for OJTIs and LCEs etc.

Sounds to me as if you are trying to explain the unexplainable management thinking in a rather poor fashion. Maybe that is why we are in this mess.

It was not a difficult decision to vote no for the first time in a decade.

[Undercover]

Taken too literally perhaps...

The point I'm making is there is a difference between asking for an improvement to existing pay and conditions and actually asking for a complete overhaul of how the company structures salaries.
The desire of an ATCO to gain financial parity with a pilot - perhaps requiring a 20,30,40% increase in basic pay (for argument's sake) is simply not going to be addressed through this kind of pay negotiation. It is not the purpose of the negotiation nor should it be in my view. Such things are a different argument for a different time and place.

[eyeinthesky]

Slightly off the topic, but the proposal to operate T&P combined MUST fail on safety grounds. It is my understanding that one of the overriding principles of arranging NERC as it is was that after the LYD airmiss it was recommended that there should be TWO people listening to the frequency ALL the time. How would this new proposal square that one??

Or does safety not matter when there are less aircraft about???:confused: :eek:

[2 six 4]

Undercover you are still misleading the debate. Nobody has a pay claim in for parity with pilots. There is a very reasonable sectional claim for ATCOs that would address the major problems if management cared to take it up. That is the issue for here and now.

Having had a look at your posts I see you have a nice coinsistent line of support for management. Hope you are not leaving us soon for a job in Ireland. ;) ;)

[ZIP250]

Call me a cynic (many have) but I'll bet next year's pay rise that if Manager ATC asks SRG for a change in the rules they will lie on their backs and put their feet in the air. SRG have proved to be the toothless wonders we all suspected they were. Within a month we will have T&P combined at night without correctly validated assistants and for good measure they will probably declare Swanwick at night to be self relieving. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Z

[BDiONU]

One of the reasons management 'may' ask SRG (or ATSSD as they now are) to combine T&P, for the night shift ONLY, is that some watches are shooting everyone in the foot. When the senior managers come in on a night (for example DD&C) they see some sectors ROUTINELY work combined T&P, despite it being against MOPS etc. etc. So they have GOT to ask themselves that if the watches think its OK, why should NATS not take advantage and utilise staff who doss down at night to work traffic during the day?

[ZIP250]

Fair Comment. If that is really going on then it is about time the managers, supervisors and LAS's stopped it. There is at least one watch where it definitely is not happening.

Z