If.......

[captainsmiffy]

If we (EK) can make such a stellar profit such as we have.......imagine what we might achieve were we a properly motivated, organised and led team! Discuss.

[falconeasydriver]

Smiffy, EVEN if you could find someone from this part of the world that genuinely understood the concept who could also conceptualize the outcome and could lead from the front, there would be 20 of our bean counting brethren who would council against such vacuous and unaccountable concepts, preferring instead to incentivize middle management types to come up with ever more inventive and outlandish ideas to maximize productivity and minimize cost….all concepts that are far easier to account for….:ugh:

So in answer to your missive, imagine away, because it will only ever exist here in someones imagination.

[BeCareful]

Why would you want these people to learn our successful companies' best tricks?

It's absolutely hilarious to watch them squander SO much potential and yet still somehow remain profitable...

[BritishGuy]

Your previous companies cannot have been that successful if you're an expat now (in this industry). A general statement I agree, but I think it's fair to say most are here because they either lost their job, furloughed, need more money, career progression (and the list goes on). Lets face it, if they (our successful companies as you put it) were that successful, we wouldn't really be here.

[Airmann]

"Our" companies? "Their" companies? The Clan mentality amongst expats is one of the problems with the ME. Maybe if you started seeing yourself as being a part of what's going on here you might be able to make more of a change rather than standing around gloating about "your" companies and keeping yourself at your own self imposed distance from everyone else.

[falconeasydriver]

Maybe if you started seeing yourself as being a part of what's going on here you might be able to make more of a change rather than standing around gloating about "your" companies and keeping yourself at your own self imposed distance from everyone else.

Hahahahaha, thats the funniest thing I've read on PPrune in a loooong time. Airmann, do you actually believe what you have just written? I'm assuming you work here in the ME? and as such you are deluded if you think are more than merely a slightly better qualified labourer than the ones you see on those busses at 6am on the way to various building sites.

[jidder]

:D Falcon

J :E

[Fart Master]

Despicable ME...

[harry the cod]

falconeasydriver

Do you actually believe what you've just written. Is that really how you see yourself, just merely better qualified than a 700dhs a month manual worker? I wonder why 'our' Company sees fit then to offer you a package worth 100 times what that poor chap gets.

We may not be the major cogs in the system and there are undoubtedly less employment safeguards than other more developed economies granted. But, assuming you're a Captain, your attitude is poor. Your behaviour and leadership style will affect and resonate on all those around you. Act like a professional and you'll be treated like one. Stop dumbing down the profession and the Company that, up until now, has probably provided a good standard of living for you and your family. You can choose to embrace life here or not, it's your choice. Doing the former makes life so much easier on yourself and those that have to fly with you. Stop deriding fellow colleagues for having pride and satisfaction for working at this Company and enjoying what they do. If you really feel that embarrassed to be working for EK or in the ruthless ME, you always have the choice to leave. Sadly, not an option for the low salaried and less educated.

And before the usual and yawningly obvious response of 'management' and 'kool aid', neither of which apply, maybe two thoughts. Firstly, how many pilots have been dismissed for transgressions under SVP JA? The Company knows it's not good publicity and, contrary to your beliefs, if it wants to maintain recruitment and standards, will attempt to ensure pilots are retained. There is a shortage of suitably qualified pilots and the Company is acutely aware of this. Fact! Secondly, where do you see your salary and hours worked in relation to other professions. Google it, you may be shocked, pleasantly so.

Whether it will change your attitude though is another matter altogether!

Harry

[cerbus]

Harry where do you see yourself in relation to other Widebody pilots? That is the only real question. Let's compare apples to apples. Just so you don't have to google it we as Emirates pilots don't measure up.
Yes I am better than 99% of the worlds population. After all if you make $70,000 a year you are the top 0.01 percent.
We as Emirates pilots have already dumbed down the profession. Not as much as Ryanair pilots have but we are the Ryanair of Long Haul.
When we return to airline pilot pay and benefits Emirates is sorely lacking. Is there a correlation between the mim requirements and what Emirates is attracting?

[falconeasydriver]

Oh Harold, my goodness, does it feel good to get all of that off your chest? I reckon after that little sermon I'd need to sit down and mop my brow.
You are in many ways partially correct, but in so many more you've missed my point in trying to achieve your own, no problem, there is no skin missing from my nose.

Lets examine what you've had to say in a bit of detail, lest I be accused of being condescending.



Do you actually believe what you've just written. Is that really how you see yourself, just merely better qualified than a 700dhs a month manual worker? I wonder why 'our' Company sees fit then to offer you a package worth 100 times what that poor chap gets.

Factually speaking, I AM correct, there is no argument, the facts DO speak for themselves, and I am of course making assumptions, there may be the odd individual that has a higher level of education and qualifications, but for the purposes of this discussion, just to be safe, lets assume.
With respect to the company, I am NO different in the purest sense in that I am paid a salary/wage commensurate with my level of qualifications and experience, JUST like the chap(s) on the busses.


We may not be the major cogs in the system and there are undoubtedly less employment safeguards than other more developed economies granted.
No argument here, and it comes with the territory, as they say, if you can't take a joke etc.
But, assuming you're a Captain, your attitude is poor. Your behaviour and leadership style will affect and resonate on all those around you.
Utterly irrelevant to this discussion, and sounds more like a life coach preaching to the faithful or soon to be converted, I am not particularly interested in your philosophical position as it means less than the price of toilet paper in my household.

Act like a professional and you'll be treated like one.
In an ideal world this concept has merit, however its really more accurate to say in our environment "act like a professional in the opinion of your immediate superiors, taking into consideration their cultural whims and bias, and you will be treated as one"

Stop dumbing down the profession and the Company that, up until now, has probably provided a good standard of living for you and your family.
I'm confused, where have I dumbed down my profession? please can you highlight the text, subtext, or heaven forbid the context in which I have committed this alleged act of dumbing down? At worst (best) I have highlighted the striking similarities between two groups despite the difference in remuneration.

You can choose to embrace life here or not, it's your choice.
Ahhh something at last we can agree on!

Doing the former makes life so much easier on yourself and those that have to fly with you. Stop deriding fellow colleagues for having pride and satisfaction for working at this Company and enjoying what they do
Partially agree, however I would say mutual respect and proper old good manners are a place to start, and then we can go from there.

If you really feel that embarrassed to be working for EK or in the ruthless ME, you always have the choice to leave. Sadly, not an option for the low salaried and less educated
Where did I mention, imply or suggest I was embarrassed? And on the second point, we are in agreement again.

And before the usual and yawningly obvious response of 'management' and 'kool aid', neither of which apply, maybe two thoughts. Firstly, how many pilots have been dismissed for transgressions under SVP JA? The Company knows it's not good publicity and, contrary to your beliefs, if it wants to maintain recruitment and standards, will attempt to ensure pilots are retained. There is a shortage of suitably qualified pilots and the Company is acutely aware of this. Fact! Secondly, where do you see your salary and hours worked in relation to other professions. Google it, you may be shocked, pleasantly so
All in all a step in the right direction, but as they say you can't teach an old dog new tricks, JA is a good egg, a man of integrity and intellect, he is however just like you and I, an outsider, if the wind were to change direction how long would his input be considered valid, I will leave it at that.

Whether it will change your attitude though is another matter altogether!
I get to work on-time, I rarely take sick-days, and I justify my operational decisions with sound reasoning and practical common sense margins, my attitude as far as my job performance is concerned is beyond reproach.

In essence Harry we are ALL expendable, we ARE no different to all the other "guest" workers, if you are indeed ignorant of that I'm afraid you have gone down in my estimations, for what thats worth.

[harry the cod]

cerbus

I don't disagre that the industry is not what it once was but that's market forces. EK is little different to any smart airline or Company for that matter, pay the least it can get away with for the highest return. They will keep dropping the hours until they find the critical point. We have to rely on recuitment and training integrity to maintain the standard. We have little choice in that.

Regarding salary, if you do take the trouble to look at the pay and salary, depending which stats you review, most UK comparisons are coming in at an 'average' of around 75,000 pounds for pilots/engineers. Assuming even the most optimistic scenario and we can double this to 150K for the most senior guys. That's before tax. An 8 year skipper will earn that net with housing allowance and flight pay so would require at least 250k gross if compensating for tax.

We go over this time and time again yet the facts are we're pretty well paid compared to most of our colleagues, widebody or not. I've never said life is perfect here but I do recognise a good apple when I see it!

Harry

[mooseknuckles]

You have been assimilated, resistance is futile

[Oldaircrew]

I do not believe you can compare the cost of living in Dubai to that of living in a real country. In direct comparison, the our salaries might seem impressive but I believe the inflation rate for expats is astronomical in the UAE. Our base cost of living is higher in the UAE than any country I can think of. Therefore we are not as well paid as some of us seem to think.

[WrldWide]

Please do the rest of us us a favour and qualify your thread as EK. Maybe in the title of your thread or something. APC has the same problem, FEDEX pilots think that APC is their domain in the cargo section. Does EK have a pilot board for EK inside gripes?

[lospilotos]

Please do the rest of us us a favour and qualify your thread as EK. Maybe in the title of your thread or something. APC has the same problem, FEDEX pilots think that APC is their domain in the cargo section. Does EK have a pilot board for EK inside gripes?

Whilst I agree to some extent, is it really a problem? You only had to read three words to realize the thread was about EK originally.

[Alconguin Crusader]

We are not as well paid as other pilots in the same category in the Middle East. The recruitment is proving that out and like has been mentioned countless times before with our hourly rate we are taking a beating.
Yes it might be good for some but then why does Emirates have to lower their requirements and go to twice as many roadshows to attract the same number of pilots?
Why do so many pilots leave EK and many of them FOs who could have very well upgraded and been very good pilots but choose to go to greener pastures?
Just look at who we are attracting.

[Wizofoz]

Just look at who we are attracting.

Right now, we are attracting many more first class, highly suitable individuals than we have jobs for.

I'm not going to participate in this old saw beyond this, but here AC, you are simply wrong, and you and I know it has been pointed out to you before.

[MillenniumFalcon]

Given that we're now taking P2F guys from Lion Air, the pickings must be getting slim.

[Wizofoz]

Well, the assumption there is that every P2F guy from Lion must necessarily be a bad pilot- that simply isn't so. Their average standard is probably lower, but that means fewer cut the mustard, not none.

While we have taken (a very few) such guys, we have also turned down many from majors and large LCCs because they can't pass the selection- and currently an RJ pilot, no matter how experienced, probably won't get an interview as we have sufficient applicants with time on Boeing and Airbi.

AC has the impression that there is something wrong with Ryanair pilots, because they are on a ****ty deal where they work (though he seems fine with US regional pilots who are on a MUCH ****tier deal).

Fact is, we have taken so many because they are that good. Whatever Ryan's shortcomings as an employer, they train well, and give their pilots great experience doing lots of sectors into challenging airports in a modern Jet.

EK loves the fact that they are a terrible employer, as it just makes them a free training ground for us.

I'm not disagreeing with much of the thrust of this thread, but the quality and availability of new-hires is not much of an issue at the moment.

I think that will change, but it hasn't yet.

[nolimitholdem]

EK loves the fact that they are a terrible employer, as it just makes them a free training ground for us.

EK loves the fact that the comparison between Ryanair and EK actually flatters EK.

Now that's setting the bar high.

[fatbus]

Agree with Wiz, I'd take a Ryanair guy over a US RJ guy anyday. Dont worry , i'm not offened if some disagree. But this thread is a waste of time.

PS , How many Ryan pilots have failed the upgrade compared to US RJ pilots?

[Wizofoz]

EK loves the fact that the comparison between Ryanair and EK actually flatters EK.


Always amazing how many Americans don't get capitalism when it applies to THEM.

[Alconguin Crusader]

I can't believe we are racing to the bottom with the argument who is better (worse), RJ or Ryanair pilots.
The real question should be why are we hiring either of them?

[Wizofoz]

Why would we not hire Ryanair pilots if they are good pilots?

Tell me aC, before your first wide body, who employed YOU?

[BobDole]

How exactly does being an American RJ pilot or a Ryan air guy make them bad? Seriously.... As far as I'm concerned a pilot is a pilot is a pilot.

Who gives a toss what you flew before joining EK. Should we throw the cadets into the same sinking boat that you all are apparently too good to ever catch a ride in?

Once you are a company pilot, you are a company pilot. You met the standard and got in, or didn't. End of story. I know just as many non-American/non-Ryan air guys that porked up the command as those that didn't.

Give it a rest. Seriously.

:ugh:

[fliion]

Well said Roberto...

The whole - where you are from, and what you were flying thing again....yegads , it'll be A v B within a day...move on.

Now - heard a little rumor that the candidates here for assessments have spouses that are calling Meydan a deal breaker - because their 'mates' came earlier and got DSO Cedre/Semmer

Suggestion is that offers being declined as a result.

Not sure if it would have been a deal breaker for me as I wouldn't have known any better..but I'm not a wife.

?

f.

[lospilotos]

Well said Roberto...

The whole - where you are from, and what you were flying thing again....yegads , it'll be A v B within a day...move on.

Now - heard a little rumor that the candidates here for assessments have spouses that are calling Meydan a deal breaker - because their 'mates' came earlier and got DSO Cedre/Semmer

Suggestion is that offers being declined as a result

f.

Kudos for actually showing the real thing, instead of the usual MO of showing a lovely beach villa.

[BigGeordie]

If recruitment isn't a problem why do we keep lowering the minimum requirements?

[Wizofoz]

We changed them from a flat 4000hrs jet to an alternative of 2500hrs on specific types that were useful (basically Boeings and Airbuses) specifically to try and get the types of younger guys at the likes of easyJet, Ryanair and Jet2 who had shown as being good value.

Have a look at the recruitment thread here- still plenty of 4000hr guys applying- the company would prefer someone with a few less hours from a more relevant operation.

[ironbutt57]

How exactly does being an American RJ pilot or a Ryan air guy make them bad? Seriously.... As far as I'm concerned a pilot is a pilot is a pilot.

Good point Bob Dole...I've trained pilots arriving here from all over, and nationality didn't really seem to be a factor..unless it came to language skills

What an American encounters over here....Miserable Aussie trainers that hate Yanks because of the America West export-a-scab operation during their dispute in 1989....Miserable Brits who...are just miserable people in general...so the deck is loaded against yanks when they first show up....not saying ALL or even MOST Brit or Aussie trainers are like this...but more than their fair share for sure..strange lot they are...

[Outatowner]

Aussie trainers that hate Yanks because of the America West export-a-scab operation during their dispute in 1989

Is that so?? Well I guess that makes sense. I always thought they hated the yanks because of their terrible RT, lack of interest in following SOPs, difficulty in following a checklist without throwing in their own interpretations, their president(s), etc etc... you know the stuff. But your theory makes a lot of sense.



Hey Wiz, who's "we"?? "We" changed the requirements, did we? I know you love this place Wiz but careful with that royal "we" because one day (and I hope it doesn't happen to you) if you come unstuck in some way they will drop you like a bad habit. See how long it's "we" then.

[Wizofoz]

Fair point, Outatowner- semantics, but I get your point.

No, I don't love the place, but I recognise it's the best place for me and many others currently, but I know exactly why many are unhappy and don't blame them for it- have an actual read of what I write, I am not at all adverse to laying blame at EKs feet where I think it earns it.

I do feel it helpful to point out when some of the rhetoric is just plain wrong- such as AC here assuming we employ a lot of Ryanair pilots because they aren't very good. The opposite is simply a statistically provable fact.

Tell me, if someone from outside asks you where EK fly's to, do you say "We fly to XYZ", or "THEY fly to XYZ"?

[Alconguin Crusader]

I never said Ryanair pilots are not very good. What I said was with the mentality and attitude with regards to work rules and pay that Ryanair has is very detrimental to our or any pilot group.
I don't know of any pilot who is not very good. Look at the industry's safety record. It is excellent. It all comes down to attitude and we are lagging behind not only other Widebody airlines but other comparable airlines in the region.
I also don't know of any Emirates pilot that says "we" when referring to the airline they work for. That is probably because the average EK pilot does not feel he is vested or has a say or can control very much of his job. Hotel Commitees, Crew Meals, Pension review are just some of the items we are ignored on and have no say.

[BigGeordie]

I'm going to agree with AC here, which is a bit of a first. Emirates doesn't feel like "my" airline, in which I have an interest and a stake. Certainly not like my last one in the UK anyway. I just feel like I'm paid to do the job, safely and efficiently, and go home. So that is what I do. I'm barely involved, never mind committed.

[ekwhistleblower]

I don't know of any pilot who is not very good. Look at the industry's safety record. It is excellent.

Lies, damn lies and statistics. There are some great pilots from all around the world, the manufacturers make great aircraft yet still we manage to kill people in benign conditions.

Training and culture seem to be the big players, I am a bit worried about the latter slipping.. Sadly pilots rarely advertise their true worth when they have saved the day, they just move on to the next flight. The only time the Industry learns the true value of the pilots is when a 777 accidentally bumps into a seawall on a VFR day, then they learn the true profit/cost equation.

[harry the cod]

AC

Ever heard of a Captain's Special Report. Great for reporting issues with hotel noise, crew meals...etc...etc..

Yes, you can have a say in things, it's just that too many of 'us' can't be bothered. Over 5500 staff are involved with the Provident pension scheme. At my last 6 monthly meeting with Mondial I was told 'off the record' that less than half have ever used their services and around a third are still in the default funds. If people are apathetic about their own finances and future, they're hardly going to show interest in other less important issues are they?

Harry

[falconeasydriver]

Harold, I do wonder sometimes if you are indeed a company chap, or perhaps you are merely playing agent provocateur. How many of us have any faith in the CSR, or for that matter the FRMS et al?
There is, and will continue to be, a majority of us who will remain disengaged with the company. The basis for this is that from a management perspective in terms of policy and action, this is precisely the intention.
All the wonderful layers of bureaucracy run by those empire builders we know and love place a convenient filter in the way of open, concise and clear communication.
Now you can pontificate to your hearts' content, but unless it impacts directly and publicly on the brand image then there is a snow balls chance in Mirdif of any substantive change.
That is the expectation, we fly the planes, others do the managing, you are fooling yourself if you genuinely believe otherwise.
I would love to be proved wrong, but what I see everyday merely confirms what I have always thought and concluded.

[BYMONEK]

BigGeordie

"I'm barely involved, never mind committed"

And I guess that's why you agree with Alconguin Crusader who doesn't consider himself part of 'the team' either. I'm not taking sides. self worth in the workplace is as much to do with our own attitude as that of the employer. Anything stopping application for a training position, or CRM or even peer support. The latter is short of volunteers, maybe some satisfaction of helping fellow pilots overcome difficult situations. Free training and qualification! Don't laugh, serious suggestion!

[Trader]

I'll say this much....if you don't use the CSR's then stop bitching!!!!!!!

To be fair, the company (managers) can hardly be blamed about not knowing about many of the 'smaller' issues if we don't write. It is easy, takes only a few minutes and may well be worth it. At the very least you are TRYING.

You can write a concise and civil note about the issue--simple really.

[harry the cod]

falconeasydriver

Well, if you have no faith in the CSR's, stop submitting them. The problem is, and I do agree with you in general, is that there are layers here which prove to be frustrating along with all the bull**** politics. However, I stand by my points previously regarding our roles as Captains, both in the this Company or any other. We lead by example and set our own standards.

Showing apathy and indifference will change NOTHING. Using reports, MAY effect change. As this is most definitely a data driven Company, I know which one I'll choose.

As an aside, thanks for your measured response to an earlier post. Unusual for no personal insults! ;)

'Harold'

[longsleep]

I am just wondering.....

How many of you guys have seen CSR's disappear?

L

[BigGeordie]

I don't know about 'disappear' but I've certainly filed them and had zero feedback even when a question has been asked and a response requested. After a while you start to think, why bother?

[lospilotos]

A lot (most?) skippers I fly with seem very reluctant to file any kind of report. "Staying below the radar" and "stay a number, don't become a name" is what I hear all the time.

[White Knight]

After a while you start to think, why bother?

Too right....

I've filed CSRs about the crappy crew transport back at base (shift change blah blah blah), substandard catering for long duty days, noisy hotel... No response... Etc...

Far easier to send a direct e-mail to the bosses! I always get a reply:ok:

[harry the cod]

lospilotos

And there, my friend, is why we have these debates about leadership, command, apathy and so forth.

I'm all for going to work and doing the job without unnecessary paperwork but some of our colleagues take the piss. Two recent examples if I may. Cabin crew injuries due 'severe turbulence' yet no tech log entry or ASR? Some disconnect there! Second involved a disruptive and violent passenger needing restraint. 3 cabin crew left onboard downroute interviewed by police and taking witness statements. 1.5 hours after landing but flight crew gone to hotel as quote "nothing to do with us"! This was a command upgrade training flight too, nice!

Yep, nothing like keeping your head down.

Harry

[BigGeordie]

White Knight, you may well get a reply but does anything ever get done about the issues or is it a standard "we are looking into it" reply?

[BigGeordie]

The question that should be asked is why do most Captains feel the need to "stay below the radar"? Must be something the company is doing or not doing to have half the workforce terrified.

[The Outlaw]

Bingo....

Now were beginning to see the light. It wasn't this way 10 years ago, it slowly became this way when certain managers took their position.

There are some managers who would love to effect change for the better but are hog tied the same way everyone is by those "further up".

[glofish]

Emiratisation?

[scandistralian]

Far from it, in my experience the Emiratis are more likely to champion a cause and take swift action, rather than the approach of some Westerners of "offer some lip service, let it drag on, and hope they forget about it"

Bare in mind this is based on experience in other sectors, can't say from explicit experience with EK.

[cerbus]

Try working at EK and dealing with the Locals before you make a statement like that.

[FUSE PLUG]

I’m really disappointed in you guys. Here we are three pages in to a thread about why management leaves us feeling unmotivated, and we’ve only been able to bash US RJ pilots, Ryanair pilots, Lion air pilots, and now locals…

You guys are off your game… The old you (the unfatigued you, the productivity paid you), at minimum would have also found a way to insult the Brazilians, Oztronauts, Canadians, and the pilots from Spain by now… Get your head back in it guys! Sling that mud!

What ever you do though… don’t point your finger at the suit wearing types in HQ… they are innocent bystanders.

[flareflyer]

Fuse you forgot the bloody italians.......
there is plenty of them in Ek now......
:}:}

[JAARule]

White Knight, you may well get a reply but does anything ever get done about the issues or is it a standard "we are looking into it" reply?


From his posts it seems obvious WK lives in a parallel universe with a parallel EK where emails are answered and helpful, pleasant assistance is always forthcoming. Things are much better in his universe - pay rises galore, the crew are always happy to bring your espresso and it never gets hotter than a balmy 27C. No fat wives either.


BigGeordie if you can find out what planet he lives on let us know as it sounds amazing. Not sure you'd want to take all that medication though.

[LHR Rain]

One always has to have a think or a laugh when White Knight posts. Too many pints should be his mantra
Ever since he left BA under questionable circumstances he disses everyone else.

[falconeasydriver]

Fuse you forgot the bloody italians.......
there is plenty of them in Ek now......



I'm told this is particularly distressing amongst some F/O's as they don't have anyone or anywhere to "donate" their leftover sarnies.....

[Curry Goat]

Good one Falcon!!! :O

Above the head of many I suspect.

[JAARule]

The mailboxes are still there; they should continue to make donations to their hearts' content.

[Mr Good Cat]

Just use the internal mail system.

Hey presto, a quick scan of the ID badge on returning from leave and you have a nice 3 week old lamb and hummus wrap presented to you by your friendly EK mail room desk staff, courtesy of one of your many naughty colleagues (if you even want to be associated with that bunch of nancy-pansy charity lovers)...