WHICH PLANE TO LEARN TO DO AERO'S IN

[PPLvirgin]

Hi all,

so I want to learn or take an aerobatic course. I have learnt in a Cessna 152 aerobat so not really interested in that.
Also can't really afford to learn in an Extra 330.

Was looking to see what kind of arcraft I can fly/learn in that would be great fun and different to what i have flown.

So I need sme suggestions as to whats good and what is local to Netherthorpe, EGNF. I have had a look and cant see to much - HELP!!

so give me 3 options, economy so basic but goodon cost. decent and more expensive, and good learner slighlty more expensive but not quite extra 330 standard.

Thanks

Tris

[justmaybe]

The Aerobat is adequate to get to grips with some basics - rolls, loops, stall turns etc. Master the basics, and then save up some cash to progress to the Pitts (that will challenge you!!) or the 300. Good luck -enjoy, you will def benefit

[djpil]

I don't know what other options are nearby for you but I second justmaybe's comment. The Aerobat is a great little aerobatic trainer.

More importantly, choice of instructor.

The Super Decathlon is my preference for an aerobatic trainer but not sure if any are around your area.

[Tay Cough]

Pitts S-2. Cost effective due to good time to climb and rapid transit. Supremely capable of covering anything you're likely to want to do for the first few years.

[IFMU]

I did mine in an S2A. Wonderful airplane. Everything else I have flown seems pedestrian in comparison. I still want one when I grow up.

[RobertL]

The Firefly, while somewhat ponderous in the roll, is a good instruction aircraft with inverted system and nice controls. It also has excellent visibility.

Doing aerobatics with the letterbox view out of a 152 is not ideal: not that comfortable, harder to keep a good lookout, and you want to develop where you look to stay ahead of the aircraft.

The Decathlon is a good trainer and more capable than the Firefly, but very few in the UK.

[PURPLE PITOT]

You hit the nail on the head in your question. The answer is " the one you can afford to fly afterwards".

No point training in an aircraft you wont be practicing in. The Aerobat is a good starter, but look at your budget, and choose accordingly. More importantly, have fun!:ok:

[Mach Jump]

I suggest you talk to Cas Smith at Full Sutton. He has both an S2 Pitts, and a T67M 160 Firefly.


MJ:ok:

[BackPacker]

WHICH PLANE TO LEARN TO DO AERO'S IN

Both the horizontal and the vertical plane. Otherwise it's just boring.

[India Four Two]

A basic aerobatic trainer, but very impressive when flown by an expert:

fRd0Qp7Fsn8

This video ends before Phil lands, but he normally does an engine-off landing at the end of his display.

[foxmoth]

Personally I am not a fan of the Cessna for aeros, apart from the handling I much prefer a stick to a yoke. I would also start people on aircraft a bit less capable than a Pitts - in many ways I think the Pitts is TOO easy to learn on and something a bit harder teaches you more. Ideal to me are aircraft like the Bulldog, Robin 2150, Cap10, Decathlon.:ok:

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Agree with Fox. The Cessna has awful handling. Can you get hold of a Chipmunk? That, though delightful to fly, is a tad short of power and that together with the fixed pitch prop will teach you 'energy management' in aeros!

[The500man]

Look for a Pitts S-2A. It will give you the most performance for the least money and doen't have yokes or side-by-side seating. Costs about £220 - £250 per hour in most places. Avoid the B/C with the bigger engine.

[Camargue]

One of the problems you face is that when it comes to learning Aero's it can be remarkably difficult to find the plane you want in the area you want it so in that respect it might be a case of seeing who is closest and going from there. The majority of interesting aerobatic planes for hire are owned by individuals set up as a flying school so searching 'pitts for hire in the Sheffield area' might throw up some ideas.

So anyway my thoughts
How much, if any tail dragger experience do you have?

If you want a tricycle:
Slingsby's. I only ever flew one with a 115hp engine many years ago. Pretty anaemic on power but capable enough to learn standard aerobatics. I am sure a more powerful version would be very good for what you want.
Bulldog. I learnt in these on an air squadron. Good for standard aero's, probably better roll rate than Slingsby but view 200hp lump and vp prop will be more expensive to hire.
Grob 115.(think its the D or E) Only flown the non aerobatic B (160hp) Think they should be quite capable though.

If you can consider tail draggers then:

Cap 10 B or C. these are lovely to fly. the C has electric flaps and better rate of roll, easy to land and capable of intermediate aeros view inverted oil. as for cost, only ref I have think of is the tiger club which charges £235 per hour. I don't know about your neck of the woods or if you could find one.

Pitts as mentioned already - fantastic planes, charismatic, fun and it feels like an adventure. Not the easiest to land so if you don't have any tail dragging experience you will initially spend as much time getting to grips with the landings as with the aero's. I would think you would be paying £220+ and hour to hire one.

extra 200- pretty much same as the 300's in terms of roll rate, +/-10 G and will do virtually every manoeuvre that a 300 can but without the 300hp oomph. Easy to fly and land and handling on the ground is very benign, certainly the easiest tail dragger I've flown in that respect. Cambridge Aero club charge £255 per hour dual.

Personally, if you have the budget and can find one locally or don't mind a long drive I'd go with an extra 200.

[Unusual Attitude]

Buy yourself a Tipsy Nipper, cost buttons to fly (I was about £30 per hr in fuel) and they are very forgiving when you get things wrong.

Still very capable however as this chap nicely demonstrates:

uvP3RniaqCI

[A and C]

Too much power is not a good think when learning aeros, and I would recommend the DHC-1 or Buldog to start with and then move on, it is vital to get your techniques right before too much power masks your lack of training.

I find the DHC-1 a more difficult aircraft to aerobat well than the Extra 300 and an very pleased that all my basic aerobatic training was on an aircraft that rewards good flying and tells you that you are not flying well without biting you too hard.

[Saab Dastard]

PS. I used the YOUTUBE tags. Why does the video show up twice?

Have you read the sticky thread above?

SD

[ianwild]

I live in Sheffield and after some research ended up flying aeros in a Slingsby at Leicester. Bit of a treck, but I couldn't find any more cost effective options locally.

Ian

[foxmoth]

A note to add that, whilst you might pay more per hour for a more capable aircraft the overall cost will not be that much higher as you spend more time flying the aeros and less climbing back to height - but again, not such an advantage for someone starting out as the time climbing back up is often useful for discussing what you just did and what you will do next.

[Croqueteer]

:ok:The Stampe takes a bit of beating as a trainer, and it also performs well two up.

[riverrock83]

Bulldog for me - 200hp, excellent visibility, inverted oil (although only 10 seconds before out of fuel) and decent controls - but then I'm bias. But again - not sure if there are any to hire near you.

[PPLvirgin]

thanks all, some great advice as always, many thanks guys!

regards

Tris

[RedKnight]

Can anyone please direct me to an authoritative/official source that discusses the EASA aerobatic rating in some detail? Specifically, what are the minimum pre-qualification requirements, and what does the training syllabus entail? Furthermore, what is the conversion process for an AOPA aerobatic certificate into an EASA aerobatic rating - are there grandfathering privileges in place if the certificate is attained prior to April 2015?

[Prop swinger]

EASA Part FCL, see FCL800 (http://easa.europa.eu/system/files/dfu/AMC%20and%20GM%20to%20Part-FCL.pdf).

AMC to Part FCL, see the AMC to FCL800 (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2011:311:0001:0193:EN:PDF).

[RedKnight]

Thank you - would it be right to assume that those documents (dated from 2011) are current and represent the latest rules/regulations published by EASA?

Has the CAA published any guidelines on the grandfathering rights/privileges of AOPA certificate holders into EASA aerobatic ratings?

I currently do not meet the minimum P1 requirements for the EASA aero rating as per FCL800, and was thus wondering if there are any suitable alternative paths (e.g. via the conversion of an AOPA certificate).

[riverrock83]

See Convert an Aerobatic Privilege held on a UK National / JAR-FCL Licence | Private Pilots | Personal Licences and Training (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=2685&pagetype=65&appid=54&mode=detail&appproc=44)

I presume that you can do the AOPA course and use that to add the rating until April 2015, or whatever the date is?

Also see CAP804, Section 4, part P

[RedKnight]

Excellent - as far as I am aware, the AOPA course doesn't have any minimum time/hour requirements, so this could be a suitable means of eventually attaining the EASA aero rating.

Just to be clear - I have already converted my license from JAR to EASA. So it's not immediately obvious that I qualify for this conversion path, as it only seems to extend to holders of a UK National or UK issued JAR-FCL pilot’s licences who exercised aerobatic privileges using these licences (which I no longer possess). Is this something you could comment on?