MERGED: Free Spirit Airlines again...got a spare $147,000 plus?

[sheppey]

From their advertisement in The Age 26 April and squeezed between ads for Brick & Blocklayers below, Sales Part Time Thomas Jewellers above and an ad on the side, TV Acting - no experience required.

Free Spirit Airlines ..in order to satisfy pilot requirements...has actioned a Pilot Cadetship Program...join our dynamic and vibrant team...upon completion of training...will be offered full time pilot employment...preferably possess nil flying experience. Cost only $147,500. Interviews at Essendon 3rd and 4th of May 2014 which is one year after they advertised for the first time. Any graduates of Year 2013 courses care to offer constructive comment for 2014 hopefuls?

Exactly what "pilot requirements" have to be satisfied?

[chimbu warrior]

Have in the past fortnight spoken to the extremely disappointed and considerably poorer parents of 2 very disappointed young folk who pursued the "Jetstar dream".

Both sets of parents should have known better, but my point is - if a "cadetship" with a relatively large and known operator ends in tears, who in their right mind would enter into a contract with an "operator" that is still only a dream itself (and maybe a wet dream at that).

[wishiwasupthere]

I'm sure Flyboat North will be along shortly to spruik what a great opportunity this is to a budding pilot.

[Cactusjack]

Perhaps Geoffrey Thomas will sign up?

[mikewil]

This really is ridiculous.

At nearly $150,000 this is the most expensive of any cadetship offered in Australia (Qantas, Qantaslink, Jetstar, Virgin Australia, Sharp Airlines, REX) and it is a start-up company that no one even knows anything about.

Are we now entering an era where the only way into the cockpit of any new carrier (even turboprop regional) is to fork-out over $100,000?

One must also not forget the stringent high standards looked for in their selection criteria, where an applicant must possess "nil flying experience".

[j3pipercub]

Flyboat won't think this is a good idea, it's for 'turbo-prop dreamers'

[poonpossum]

At this point the Employer will facilitate for Commercial Pilot Employment. The pilot shall be
engaged in operating charter and aerial work flights, as authorised by the company or any other
entity which holds a binding commercial agreement with Free Spirit Airlines. Upon obtaining
the necessary Commercial Flying Experience, consisting of 1000 hours of total flight time in
light aircraft, which is expected to take 12-18 months, Free Spirit Airlines will progress the pilot
to Phase 2.

hahahaha. You cant make this :mad: up.
They will facilitate commercial pilot employment so that their cadets can reach the required 1000 hours before B1900 conversion.

hahaahaha. Sure. Good luck, assholes.

[puff]

Hope the program also provides you with a free unicorn to ride on your days off!

[pilotchute]

Mr Sharp puts his kids in the RHS of a Metro straight out of flight training so what would be so much different with a B1900?

Chimbu

How did the Jetstar Cadetship "end in tears" exactly??

[puff]

Sharp has a real operation is perhaps a huge difference between the 2! I'd love to see a list of 'operators' that have planned to start up in Australia that have seen little more than a crappy website before running out of funds before even starting!

Sadly enough fools will part with their money and then be on the media crying poor about how they were tricked. Buyer beware, if it looks like *hit, smells like *hit, it's probably *hit!

You got the job, just deposit the money into my Nigerian bank account!

[scotton]

For a B1900 job ?

AviationJobs.Me Flight Crew: B1900D Rated Captains Free Spirit Airlines Australia (http://www.aviationjobs.me/2014/03/b1900d-rated-captains-free-spirit-airlines-australia.html)

[chimbu warrior]

How did the Jetstar Cadetship "end in tears" exactly??

I'm told that those who had not yet progressed to A320 rating, but had completed CPL + ATPL subjects, have been "deferred" pending an upturn in the industry.

[Flyboat North]

I wouldn't rank this one at the top of the list, my list would be

1. Jetstar , straight to the jet, salary now $100K, qantas group, multiple franchises around Asia where you can head for a few years etc.
2. Virgin , turbos for a few years , then perhaps widebody SO , then narrowbody fo , so take six years to achieve what you achieve in upon graduation for option 1. The cool funky company that treats staff with "respect" , it's all about the "respect" - lost $500 mill over past few years.
3. Rex , onto the turboprop after graduation, command after about five years. Reasonable number have moved to airlines now. On about $60 to $70 K fairly soon after graduating

All of the first three are full time permanent jobs where there are hundreds of applicants every year - merit based selection

4. Sharp, you get nine months in the RHS of a Metro after course completion, keep in mind the Metro is a single pilot aircraft, and is steadily declining in numbers. The course used to be 750 hours of "aeronautical" experience now down to 500 hours, then you hit the street

5. Another outfit called ACA - or airline cadets australia , think they used to send people to the now defunct Macair. Still a website there not sure what they are doing

But be so careful because there is no guarantee at Jetstar , you actually have to pass the course , and then you are placed onto reserve employment list, you might actually have to wait a few months also. What a terrible experience to subject a 19/20 year to , no limo to pick them up from Oxford , making them wait up to six months before they commence, prior to paying them $100K.

The cadetships are all just a big conspiracy to get at "the pilots" , because you guys are just so important.

Many of the posters regarding cadet ships are just really so bitter, and angry. It must really be a big disappointment to realize that all the time , finances etc put into climbing the GA ladder will be very unlikely to get you to an airline now.

Must be a lot of people wishing they had done something else.

How many direct entry jet jobs in Australia over the last three years - really very few & the one who has taken the most - Jetstar has largely turned it's back on GA/regional

[VH-FTS]

It must be a sad existence being you, FlyBoat North. A 38 year old who never made it, but is now a self-proclaimed expert about cadetships and the industry in general. You are clearly one of three people:


Involved with the organisations that provide cadet training for Jetstar
A glorified plane spotter. I say glorified because you may have a GFPT or PPL but never took it any further because you didn't have the guts to give it a real go.
A 21 year old Jetstar cadet that feels the need to protect his/her existence by pretending to be an older, more knowledgeable person.

It's a pity that there is so much dribble that comes out of your mouth it overshadows the occasional bit of fact that you post. You do have a slight idea about what's going on out there, but when will you learn that guys on this forum (with 10, 20 or 30 plus years more aviation experience than you) have a better idea about what's going on in the industry. They've seen history repeating and actually work in the industry every day. FBN, reading Australian Aviation (or worse, Australian Flying) articles or chatting to your mates down at the aero club/plane spotting area/flight sim forums doesn't make you an expert. Please learn to pick your battles and save us all from the verbal diarrhoea that frequently is expelled from your mouth.


To everyone else, I'm sorry I opened up my packet of troll food, but I couldn't sit back any more.

[Flyboat North]

Some of us have no interest in working as airline pilots, goodluck to those that do & those who don't

Many of the posters here really sound like some caricatures out of the the 1950s/60s using old fashioned jingoistic language. Really some very conservative & very narrow minded viewpoints expressed.

It seems all like to claim they had a dream run through GA in three to five years made it to an airline as did "all my mates", and speak in such Aussie, jingoistic terminology of their time in the outback.

The data really tells a vastly different story, let's look at the data since say the start of 2011 - last 3.5 years.

How many people hire onto jets in Australia (RPT and FIFO) ??

I would say 350 and that would be tops.

Any takers , we are talking about Virgin , Qantas , Jetstar , Network , Tiger , Alliance , Cobhams , Air North , Skywest .

Virgin after much hoopla & mania regarding the magic man continues to loose vast amounts of money & recently dissolved a hold file that had been around for two years. Did they hire anyone over the past 3.5 years ,well not over last 2.5 , maybe allow 30 for 2011.

Qantas - zero

Jetstar - around 250 - includes 100 Qantas transfers, over 80 cadets now, and that is the number that really gets to you guys. So possibly at most 70 direct entry over the past 3.5 years

So really all people have is a trickle that have gone into the FIFO, and secondary RPT carries (Qlink 717 etc). So the DE turboprop guys are competing against ADF resignees and the hundreds of highly experienced Aust airline pilots that at any one point are always looking to return home. So what are your chances - well really pretty slim when you evaluate the data objectively.


The sources of pilots are

1. ADF
2.Regional/GA
3. Overseas based Australians (experienced)
4. Cadet

In terms of input to increase the source , consider the number of CPLs issued each year to Australians, and the number of people winged in the ADF (about 120 to 140 pa).

Grim time for GA/Regional pilots, and will stay that way for a significant time you would think. Two largest airlines on their financial deathbeds, and the one airline that has taken significant numbers - that would be Jetstar has taken on nearly one hundred cadets since 2010.

That would create some angst

[mcgrath50]

Some of us have no interest in working as airline pilots, goodluck to those that do & those who don't

We've been through this before but have you considered some of us, while interested working as airline pilots, are quite happy NOT to be doing it right now. :ugh:

But surely even you must admit this scheme seems at best highly risky to be signing up to?!

[Flyboat North]

Well why would anyone consider it , you are really just being asked to be a financier on somebody else's business concept.

Can you fund my hypothetical idea please ?

Just a little different from Jetstar Aust & Rex who both fly and make millions . Just out of interest how much has Rex made over the last five years, well I guess if they made one cent they would be $500 million dollars more profitable than Virgin - go the Magic Man, also Jetstar Aust ?? - dollars , dollars , dollars you might think.

More broadly too many flying schools are asking for too high a proportion of fees either upfront , or front loaded. In effect you are being asked to be the financier to the actual flying school - you have to be careful here as asking for fees front loading may well be an indication of financial duress. Where will you be if they go belly up, and large flying schools go belly up all the time in Australia. Even with the GA slave labour system for flying instructors most adopt - not that anyone here would admit to that , yes they were gainfully employed full time upon completion of training - made it to the airlines in five years without a hitch. Sure thing

The point I think a lot of people miss with the Jetstar, Qlink , Qantas cadetships etc, is that you are a Qantas group cadet. And that people are shuffled around within the system. So that is why now you have Qantas cadets who are now captains at Qlink (about 90% of them hear - those who commenced training from 2006 onwards), some have moved onto other airlines , including Jetstar. One thing for sure though is that when Q mainline does open for hiring, and sure that might be a long time, they will get first preference.

The majority of the Qantas cadets who were still in training following the commencement of the Jetstar program , transferred over to Jetstar. Unlike many posters insist on , Jetstar is planning to continue their program in the long term, & continue to employee all cadets who successfully complete their course. However their may be some delays depending on the number who elect to transfer over from QF mainline. Jetstar has options here, posting them to their overseas franchises or placing them with Qlink. QF did in fact place over ten cadets with Jetstar Asia for their "work experience" - most stayed and are now A320 captains.

Whether you like it or not the QF Group cadets are "the chosen" always have been always will be -nothing you can do. And they will always get employment preference within the ten or so airlines that the QF group is involved with.

The envy is white hot for many people when they see a twenty year old , who is fully checked to line on a Jetstar A320.

Tell it to the judge

But wait I have a better idea - become a Buddhist - that way it might happen in the next Life but it sure isn't looking good right now

[Mail-man]

Did I misread the title? I thought this was a thread about Free Spirit.....

[poonpossum]

Anyone who harbors envy for a 20 year old 320FO has a few screws loose. Nothing like never having to make any solo decisions, never building any proper command time or never having to land on a short field.

If you value cash and job security then great, but other than that it seems like a one way ticket to the end of your working life. Sitting in a big stinky tube, with nothing exciting happening, ever again.

[mcgrath50]

Whether you like it or not the QF Group cadets are "the chosen" always have been always will be -nothing you can do. And they will always get employment preference within the ten or so airlines that the QF group is involved with.

A number of QF cadets got knocked back from Qantaslink last year, told to reapply next year. Now instructing or up north. Yes earlier courses are all in JQ/Qlink but the most recent ones haven't been given a job as none is available.

[Slippery_Pete]

Rumour I heard the other day is that they didn't get "knocked back" from QLink, but that the someone has put their foot down because they allegedly keep smashing the tail of the Q400 onto the runway when trying to land.

[mcgrath50]

Hard to break a plane before you are in the company :ok: I'm not crying poor for them, they went through a recruitment process and they and a lot (all?) of the other applicants with similar low experience got knocked back. I too heard it was due to the poor performance of other low time trainees. Not necessarily QF Mainline cadets though.

[ANCDU]

Sorry for the thread drift guys, but FN, you need to realise that if Qantas is on it's deathbed, so is Jetstar. If you think that cadets in Jetstar are immune from the Qantas GROUP problems you need to a good re- think. If the group falls over they will have a very difficult time getting re-employed.

As for forking out over $100,000 for a cadetship in a new company in this climate! :ugh:

[eternity]

Flyboat North


I usually don't bother to comment on other peoples rants and raves, however, in Flyboat North's case I'm more than happy to make an exception.

Flyboat North....you do write some very good pieces. They are well constructed, and in many ways certainly are convincing. I'm assuming you didn't make it as a pilot...so I would certainly suggest sales. Realistically, you could probably make more money than myself and most of the other jet drivers in this country!!

What does irk me, however, is the damage that your gifted writing and embellished figures can have on pilots that are in GA with dreams of flying for the big boys.

I'm not a QF cadet; I'm not sure I was smart enough to be one :)
However, since 2007 I have managed to climb from C172's instructing, and 210's and 402's out bush, to multi-crew turboprop operations and for the past 2 and a half years, jet operations. Next month I have an interview overseas to fly an even bigger one. Not the quickest GA to jet run, but a fun one.

I climbed this slippery greasy pole without backstabbing, without family connections and without money for cadetships etc. And I also did it in the face of numerous naysayers and anonymous posters like yourself. There are many opportunities for people who are in GA to fly with the big lads. I know many of them....we all started together. None of them were cadets. The only thing you really need is a drive to continue to push for what you want. It will happen eventually....as long as you don't give up.

Flyboat North....your post's make young GA guys feel like it can't happen. And mate, that's not fair.


As for your embellished facts.

J* - check the pay for a CADET frozen ATPL - from my knowledge it is much lower than the 100k you quoted.

Virgin - they have NOT dissolved the hold file. It's still there, I know 3 guys that are on it.

Virgin (again) - you mentioned that they havn't hired for 2.5years. Check again. I used to work with a guy who started with them just over a year ago.

FIFO and "secondary RPT" (whatever that is). - Not just a trickle.

Alliance - quite a few

Cobham 146 and 717's - lots and lots

Network - quite a few

Tiger - about 50 recently with more to come (more than happy for my mates at Tiger to correct me).

Plus......runners like me looking overseas, therefore opening up positions in Oz.

There is plenty of opportunity out there. But there is also plenty of people who decided not to travel the hard road from GA to the big boys.
Many of those pilots are happy where they are, but some others like Flyboat North are disgruntled try to drag down others.

So to the fellows in GA looking at the big jets, ignore people like him.
Focus on your careers, keep your ear to the ground for opportunities and keep pushing. You will get there. All roads lead to Rome...if you happen to be on a longer road then so be it. Enjoy the scenery and then enjoy Rome when you get there.

Eternity.

[206greaser]

FBN is not now and never will be a pilot. Hangs out on pprune to spout the joys of the j* cadetship that is all.

Nice post eternity. I agree with it.

As for free spirit it's a joke/hoax.

Cheers,
Greaser.

[717tech]

Well said eternity!

[Flyboat North]

Just another GA Astronaut really telling tall stories.

Really we should make an Australian Story Episode about you Et , weren't smart enough for the QF cadetship, no family help , surrounded by naysayers , yet you the little Aussie bleeder triumphs above all and make it. My eyes are just misting up.

You make it all the way from 172's to jets in starting in 2007 , jets by the end of 2011, all through a GFC. Now the big boys from OS are calling for you. Well aren't you just the GA Rock Star.

Get Goddam Serious

[morno]

It's quite clear FBN really has little to do with real world aviation, so anyone who read's his advice should think seriously about whether or not to use it.

Cadet astronauts more like it.

morno

[27/09]

We need +1 and -1 buttons on here.

Eternity, your post deserves a +1.

FBN, deserves a -1

As has been posted before, FBN has no credibility.

[mikewil]

As has been posted before, FBN has no credibility. I would really like to know what his/her motive is for talking up the Jetstar cadetship and insulting all who are in GA (even turboprop regionals).

If he is not one of the Jetstar 'astronauts', does he have something to financially gain from their existence?

[27/09]

I would really like to know what his/her motive is for talking up the Jetstar cadetship and insulting all who are in GA (even turboprop regionals).

If he is not one of the Jetstar 'astronauts', does he have something to financially gain from their existence?

Good questions.

FBN - 72 posts, over 95% of theses post are on cadetships, well over 50% alone on the Jetstar cadetship. Certainly nothing in his/her posts to show any real world actual aviation experience or knowledge.

Reading some of the 5% of posts that do not directly refer to a cadetship, FBN flies for business, apparently has a CPL, if you can believe what's posted. Was looking around to do an MECIR, even asked about opportunities of doing this in NZ. Of course all of these posts could just be fishing exercises, which seems likely as when FBN starts a thread with a Q asking for info, FBN almost never comes back to reply to that thread.

FBN did you ever get that CIR done?

[porch monkey]

Why feed the troll/oxygen thief?

[mcgrath50]

Someone mentioned they "know him" from YMMB. So those of you there get hunting for a bloke with a massive chip on their shoulder. Possibly wearing a Jetstar uniform to fire up his C172 :ok:

[peterc005]

+1 for FBN

[bloke 3000]

-1 for PeterC

[peterc005]

+1 for PeterC

[bloke 3000]

As per the conditions of the +1/-1 rating system, a poster may not self rate.

As a result, PeterC is now disqualified with -1 status.

[27/09]

Bloke 3000: As per the conditions of the +1/-1 rating system, a poster may not self rate.

As a result, PeterC is now disqualified with -1 status.

+ 1

Could PeterC and FBN be alter egos?

[27/09]

One of the problems with FBN is he/she posts very one sided support of certain cadetships and is very disparaging of the GA route to the airlines, and when someone posts their own experience of moving through GA to the airlines he/she basically calls them liars.

He/she doesn't appear to speak with any practical experience yet slams those that do. Very bad form.

[Flyboat North]

Well this is an anonymous internet bulletin board , and it is common knowledge that people tell stories on BB all the time.

Because somebody posts something anonymously on the internet , I don't have to believe it, I am allowed to think they have made it all up.

Eternity's own words:

However, since 2007 I have managed to climb from C172's instructing, and 210's and 402's out bush, to multi-crew turboprop operations and for the past 2 and a half years, jet operations. Next month I have an interview overseas to fly an even bigger one

Bing Gordons own words:


For the record, I spent 5 years in GA before joining the airlines. I now fly a 737 for a big Australian airline and have done so successfully for several years. I have two degrees, one is a Master's. I am soon going back to GA for lifestyle and job satisfaction. I am 5 years younger than you. Explain that!

Really just boasting and big noting, and I don't believe a single word of what these two people say. Actually offered Bing a $100 bet - he initially took it , sent an aggressive PM then disappeared.

The first "CV" is even more implausible "GA 172 to Jets in 4.5 years" with a GFC right in the middle - yes sure you did.

Then again Bing really tells quite a whoppa as well, "Big" airline for "several" years , got to narrow body jets at the age of 25 , yes sure you did.

Really notice the emphasis on the word "Big" in their self styled CVs - you guys are just so "Big" "Time"

You guys really just need to get your hand off it.

We want to talk about reality not your own personal fantasies.

[j3pipercub]

Hahahahahaha, this is truly priceless. The photo below makes me think of what FBN would be like on the ramp at Oxford where he instructs.

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo342/j3pipercub/imagejpg1-1.jpg (http://s390.photobucket.com/user/j3pipercub/media/imagejpg1-1.jpg.html)

j3, turboprop dreamer.

[206greaser]

FBN you are a troll. P!ss off! FFS!

Tell us what your experience is. Tell us what license you hold. Come on mate you're a troll you say the same crap on every thread. Sh!t or get off the pot tiger.

[BlatantLiar]

The biggest joke out of all this are the mods who are allowing such nonsense to degrade these forums.

[mcgrath50]

Really just boasting and big noting, and I don't believe a single word of what these two people say.

Don't worry the feeling is mutual.

[Flyboat North]

I would suspect a lot of the regular posters here who claim GA stardom to the airlines , are sitting at home unemployed sending out resumes & picking up dole cheques.

What are they called again - yes "GALUPs" I think

Badluck guys the "Hollywood" career didn't happen, might be time to take a look in mirror , stop chasing the loss & get a job/qual/skill that is in demand & actually pays.

To many believe the Glossy Brochures of the big flying school/ aviation degree factories telling people their three year course will qualify you to be a "Maritime Rescue Pilot" and "Regional Airline First Officer" just blatantly false information. At most 50% complete the aviation degrees -many realize they have been sold a pup. Of the less than 50% who complete the degree/CPL the majority will never obtain one hour of paid flying work.

To many here demonstrate the bitterness that this reality creates - keep trying to live the dream, when the mirage disappeared a long time ago.

Realise your loss , accept your loss, stop blaming others for perceived failures, and I guarantee two years down the track you will by buying me beers when you are in town.

[Hempy]

I would suspect a lot of the regular posters here who claim GA stardom to the airlines , are sitting at home unemployed sending out resumes & picking up dole cheques.

What are they called again - yes "GALUPs" I think

Badluck guys the "Hollywood" career didn't happen, might be time to take a look in mirror , stop chasing the loss & get a job/qual/skill that is in demand & actually pays.

To many believe the Glossy Brochures of the big flying school/ aviation degree factories telling people their three year course will qualify you to be a "Maritime Rescue Pilot" and "Regional Airline First Officer" just blatantly false information. At most 50% complete the aviation degrees -many realize they have been sold a pup. Of the less than 50% who complete the degree/CPL the majority will never obtain one hour of paid flying work.

To many here demonstrate the bitterness that this reality creates - keep trying to live the dream, when the mirage disappeared a long time ago.

Realise your loss , accept your loss, stop blaming others for perceived failures, and I guarantee two years down the track you will by buying me beers when you are in town.

This sounds remarkably like an autobiography FBN, you should write a book. You could even call it something like "Bitter and twisted - How I tried and failed". Or something. Ever think that perhaps you simply lacked the ability?

[eternity]

Hi Flyboat North,


You can offer me a $100 bet if you like.......

Give me an email address and I can send you a copy of my licence endorsement page.

But when you lose......be a man......and pay me my money.
And then stop trying to drag other people down into your murky world.


Eternity.

[smiling monkey]

I've actually worked with Eternity a long time ago and have followed his progress since our China days through our network of friends. And I can attest that what he has written about his progress is 100% correct so Flyboat North, be prepared to pay up your $100 bet.

To many here demonstrate the bitterness that this reality creates - keep trying to live the dream, when the mirage disappeared a long time ago.

Realise your loss , accept your loss, stop blaming others for perceived failures, and I guarantee two years down the track you will by buying me beers when you are in town.

Flyboat North, you come across as being of those who are bitter and twisted probably because you were shunned by GA and could never make that first break? If that's the case, then just because you never made it, doesn't mean others didn't. Keep eating those sour grapes mate. :yuk:

[Slippery_Pete]

To many believe

To many here demonstrate

Rather ironically, it really is a pity, FBN, that you yourself didn't follow a university pathway. Perhaps then you could spell "too".

And perhaps you would have got that airline job you missed and which causes you so much anger, jealousy and bitterness.

Looks like Eternity (from GA) got it instead. That's just to (sic) bad.

[Flyboat North]

More than happy to take the bet, which is BTW, that you prove all elements of your claimed CV

1. You commenced instructing in 2007
2. You then progressed to C210s and 402s "out bush"
3. You then progressed to multi-crew turboprop operations
4. You began flying a "Jet" in late 2011 and have continued that for 2.5 years
5. You currently have an interview from overseas airline to fly an even "bigger one"

I think it is a boy wonder GA History, that is fabricated.

So send me an email, we can meet, and I will have a look at your logbooks, copies of CASA licences etc, perhaps even a copy of a payslip or two.

Gee the power of anonymous bulletin board posters "vouching" below for Et , just so persuasive. The evidence that you all present as anonymous bulletin board poster's would no doubt persuade the highest court in the land.

Be enough of man to actually go through with this.

[AussieNick]

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lcx7psXlYf1qdubemo1_500.gif

[smiling monkey]

I think it is a boy wonder GA History, that is fabricated.

So send me an email, we can meet, and I will have a look at your logbooks, copies of CASA licences etc, perhaps even a copy of a payslip or two.

Be enough of man to actually go through with this.

And I hope you'll be enough of a man to make a public apology on YouTube when Eternity proves you wrong. And how about you do the same too, mate and show Eternity your licenses and logbooks? I reckon that's fair.

[SpyderPig]

FBN just proves you don't need a long neck to be a goose, even on the internet.

Don't feed the troll

[Flyboat North]

So the two guys with GA fantasyland CVs , big note , do a little chest beating then at the end of the day - run away from the bet.

What a surprise.

[mikewil]

So the two guys with GA fantasyland CVs , big note , do a little chest beating then at the end of the day - run away from the bet.

What a surprise.

Maybe they are busy with phone calls to Virgin Australia in preparation for their next big Jet gig on the Boeing 777.

Yep - you guessed it, Virgin are once again hiring GA guys on the hold file.

See following thread:
http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/415864-virgin-blue-hiring.html

[Flyboat North]

Somehow doubt that either of them is either employed in piston GA, the sound more like GALLUPS to me

Sure there must be magnificent opportunities with Virgin such magical management , losing $500 million in five years.

Best fleet management plan in Australia - how many different types do they operate now ?

They can just see things that others can't see , for example the brilliant decision to pay $60 mill for 60% of a company that has lost $250 million since inception - yes we are talking about Tiger.

Hold file been there for what 2.5 years - yes the future is just so bright for the GA guys you have to wear shades

[AussieNick]

I know of a fair few GA guys who have made it into the airlines just fine.

Example. Mate of min over the course of 5 years went from CPL training, Flying out of broome, to a job in Darwin, flew there for 2 years on singles, twins and turbines into a job with Virgin. 5 years. The guys 27

Another who went from flying on stations, to a remote Ga company, into town flying conquests and now over seas with AirNZ. again, 5 years.

FBN, pull your head out of your arse, the GA route is still a viable, and honestly, best way to get into the airlines in terms of overall experience. Hell the stories, experiences and good times you'll have are amazing.

Don't get any of that with a cadetship...

[Flyboat North]

AN: Goodluck to people who did that - but you are talking about pre-GFC it is a different world today, and there are hundreds of high qual piston pilots who can't progress to the regionals, and likewise hundreds of high qual regional pilots who have zero chance of a jet job in Aust

Read the Virgin thread people seem to celebrating the hiring of ten people in a year - bizarre

Jetstar Cadetship: will be back early next year , they can't have it open while they are making QF pilots redundant

QF Redundancies: Word has it that riots will erupt in Sydney and Melbourne , the community is outraged that the very heart and soul and spirit of Australia - our Qantas pilots who we are just all so very proud of are being made redundant. In fact communities are taking up collections , and taxpayers/govt appear to be in agreement that we are willing to subsidise the QF pilot wage bill, to ensure we can keep them all employed and we believe they should be retained in Long Haul flying around 500 to 600 hours a year and paid $350 to $450K as a LH captain.

[Propstop]

FBN is a troll and genuinely has no idea. I doubt he would ever be a pilot as he seems to have a distaste of real aviation and only seems to want to be a systems manager. Air France anyone?

[Fantome]

All this incitement to rage. All this extraordinary pettiness.
It seems so far far away from the peaceful progression
along a career path where you knew that as you clocked up
the hours and experience in GA that if you wanted airlines
you had a fair chance. And if not, then a life somewhere
satisfying in GA was a certainty.

Charter operators such as Ossie Osgood and Doug Muir,
nobody got a gig who did not possess a degree of maturity
and sufficient interest in the origins in Australia , and abroad,
of flight from the pioneers to the great names of the thirties
and forties. In other words, you had read a bit. You were respectful.
You knew your place. And you bad-mouthed no one.
The reference you came away with meant something.

How did your mate go getting into the circus doing the human
cannon ball stunt?

Fat chance he had. We told him he was not of the calibre
they wanted.

(Thank you Peter B from Tyabb for that one.)

[AussieNick]

@FNB: Actually i'm talking about people who like me, finished their CPL training right after the "GFC" hit and yet still managed, during this dreaded GFC and post GFC world to move progressively through the ranks into the right seat in and airline, all while battling the GFC conditions you alluded to.

Cadet ships are no sure thing to getting in to an airline either.

People need to remember, Airline work in Australia isn't as abundant as Europe or here in north america due to our size. There are less RPT carriers here compare to other countries, and the rate of openings per year is far less that that of schools pumping out CPL students, so there will always be an excess of guys in GA fighting for Airline spots, nothing about the conditions in Australia, more about supply and demand. And when supply is high and demand is low, the RPT guys will always be picky...

[iPahlot]

I know a guy that got in to Virgin 3 years to the day after getting his CPL. He flew singles out west, went to twins on the east coast, all smack bang in the middle of the GFC.

Another, flying singles, turbines and twins out west, regional within 2.5 years, captain and now J*. Difference between him and a cadet that'll most certainly be stuck in the right hand seat while he progresses to the left? He has REAL flying experience, REAL command decision making ability and a whole lot of awesome stories and mates across the country who share a comradery that cadets will simply not understand.

I observed a J* cadet do some IF training in a fixed base twin sim recently and when it came to unusual attitude recovery training he quickly identified the unusual attitude he was in by uttering the the words, I'm in a spin! $hit! I'm dead! And let go of the controls and just watched the scenery spin around on the screens...

I feel safe already when some of these cadets move to the left seat and then supervise another cadet... Because they'll both know this GA thing is just time wasting, back breaking rubbish :} :ugh:

[Di_Vosh]

FBN,

Gotta say I'm a bit disappointed in your more recent posts.

Your earlier posts had some inspirational stuff: some clever marketing spiels, quoting cadet statistics that were astonishingly close to being accurate and who could have come up with "Go straight to the Jet - Go Cadet" :}

All pure gold.

Now however, all you're doing is abusing people.

Sad really,

DIVOSH!

[Flyboat North]

DV:

I don't think I abused anyone, perhaps a little dig at some people who I don't think were telling the truth.

The cadet stats are pretty accurate , that is something I do know.

I note a few more GA Wonderboy (GAW) experiences outlined above.

I placed a bet of $100 with two other guys who outlined their own self describe Alistar Maclean style resumes of unadulterated success on this forum. Both guys in my viewing were big-noting and lying -neither took the bet.

The guy above ip; really day of CPL to Virgin 3 years - don't believe it , happy to bet $100 and another $100 on your other boy, and am happy to put another $100 that Aussie Nicks bio is not true. Other stories V Fishy - you don't get to ANZ mainline five years after CPL brother.

You guys just love to believe these GA Wonderboy stories - like believing in the miraculous conception.

If you guys are going to progress you need to look to the North and the East.

On another topic understand that almost all Qantas Second Officers (QSO) on 380 & 744 are on over $200k atm. Fair pay for their skill set and responsibility I think , indeed fair pay - they are the elite , they are special.

Really about the same that a Captain at BA, American , Delta , United , but more than an Air Canada Capt makes. But our guys are worth it - they are the pride of our nation.

Just something that does confuse me a little - why do QF have SOs on runs that are Bris/Sing , syd/Man , Syd/hg - where every airline they are competing against has only a Capt/FO. Perhaps if got 100 Phd's from Oxford and workshopped it for a weekend - we could figure out a way to save a dollar.

Somebody asked me a question yesterday and atm I am quite perplexed.

"What did the QSO say to the Cathay icadet ?"

Go straight to the Jet - Go Cadet"

[Di_Vosh]

FBN

That's more like it. Bit more of the old rhetoric. :D

Couple of points:

1. Your more recent posts come across as abusive, no if's but's or maybe's. If you don't believe me, Google "email tone" or similar.

2. The information you have regarding Qantas cadets who've found themselves in Qlink is not quite accurate:

Yes, MOST of the Qantas cadets who joined Qlink in 2005-2007 are now captains. Having said that, IIRC, the first one only became a captain 3 years ago.

The rest of the Qantas cadets (i.e. the courses finishing post-2008) were told to find work elsewhere. Some of them were invited to join Qlink a few years ago (3 years at most, and all of these guys/girls have at least four years in the RHS.) So best case scenario: told to f-off in 2009, some got a job with us in 2011 and MIGHT become a captain in 2015.

So a cadet to Turboprop captain in 7 years, and a cadet with 2 years looking for themselves, then another four as a Qlink FO (Best case scenario).

Not quite the glowing picture you painted for them.

3. I was curious about your point regarding Qantas cadets being "the chosen". Unless you've received very different correspondence than some of my friends, Qantas basically told the Qantas cadets at Qlink not to expect further progression.

DIVOSH!

[porch monkey]

Your $200,000 a year, ( bull****) isn't a lot when you're facing redundancy with just SO hours, buddy. No one is interested in you with that time. That's where having some experience is a lifesaver. Took me 15 years to get to a jet from GA, and I didn't have more than 15 hrs of turbo prop time. At 44 years of age, no less.

[eternity]

FlyboatNorth,


You publicly challenged me to a bet - and I publicly took it.
However, I have not followed through, so I think that you at least deserve an explanation.

And the explanation is this.........

I can't be bothered.
And you're not worth it.



You went fishing; and I'm happy to admit that I took the bait.
I was planning on scanning my endo page on my licence - blanking out the name and ARN and then posting it here, but then I thought......

I can't be bothered.
And you're not worth it.



Posters like j3, smiling monkey know who I am. Others who might look at my previous posts and know me personally would probably be able to connect the dots also.
If anyone who knows me personally thinks that I have embellished my experience and jobs etc...then please call me on it.


FlyboatNorth - I don't think that my progression has been extremely quick, but you did call me a GA WonderBoy.
Thank you for that. I will take that as a compliment. Makes me feel special.

Enjoy your visual circuits in a 152 mate. And as a favour to the General Aviation community, please don't be one of those disgruntled flying school instructors that gives a hard time to the younger guys.
Many of these fellows have the drive and passion to progress, even if you don't.
Trying to stand in their way and get them down........it's like the school bully coming home and beating up small animals.......it's just sad, really.

Don't be that guy, you're better than that.

Safe flying.

Eternity.

[27/09]

FBN: Other stories V Fishy - you don't get to ANZ mainline five years after CPL brother.

Actually I know someone who has done this, not very common I will admit, but to my knowledge it has been done quite recently.

[AussieNick]

FBN: and am happy to put another $100 that Aussie Nicks bio is not true. Other stories V Fishy - you don't get to ANZ mainline five years after CPL brother.

1) What bio are you talking about? Have I ever said that I am working for an RPT? Did I even indicate that i'm working commercially?

2) I Said working for AirNZ, I never said mainline did I?

I worked with the fella who is now with AirNZ. And i've known the guy flying for Virgin since our GFPT days.

You catch e as someone with a very large chip on their shoulder, couldn't survive in GA hmmm?

[Flyboat North]

AN: your GAW story is published right here:

Actually i'm talking about people who like me, finished their CPL training right after the "GFC" hit and yet still managed, during this dreaded GFC and post GFC world to move progressively through the ranks into the right seat in and airline

Poor Old Nick sounds like he is getting a bit forgetful, are you all right mate ?

Come on ET , take the bet, it was a whoppa of a GAW story you told , a whoppa tale of GAW nirvana

If you say ANZ people will think you mean mainline, getting to a regional within five years of piston GA is good going right now, jet job will take ten for the lucky few who achieve it.

So in other words five years GA ,likely casual/contract employment of half of that then a regional. ANZ links kick off the pay at about $45 K (NZ) don't they ?

The QF cadets up to end of 2008 went straight to Qlink. After that a new QF CP was appointed policy changed albeit briefly. Remember their were only a trickle of people in the QF program post 2008, those who had been told to do the three year degree at Swinburne , or did one year course in 2008.

The policy end 2008 then became they would have to source their own jobs come back and see QF in a couple of years , most instructed @ the larger flying schools.

So pre start 2009 all joined Qlink direct upon graduation, with some CPL QF cadets classes going directly to QF mainline from FTA (got lucky), then for a 1.5/2 year period they had to find own jobs , then when Jetstar kicked off CShip in mid 2010 those QF cadets still "in training" were offered places on the program , ab-initio or advanced.

This would fit my definition of the chosen



Mainly direct to Qlink
Those who went to Qlink got massive numbers of extra training sectors if needed, DV you must remember the guy who got 200
sectors before they called "no ball"
They were allowed to stay at Qlink beyond the two years
Special program designed to upgrade them in Qlink
Some left Qlink to go fly jets , will still be first to be interviewed if QF ever hires again
The QF "get your own job" cadets - who only existed for a two year period were fastracked into Jetstar advanced & Qlink trainee ship
Those QF cadets still "in training" when Jetstar announced their cadetships all offered places. Surprisingly only about 50% accepted the offer - fools could have gone straight to the Jet !!



I think that would fit the definition most people would have of "the chosen" beats sitting around outback towns for months on the dole waiting for the sniff of a job.


I still willing to bet $100 with anyone who can substantiate getting from start to RH narrowbody jet within five years in Australia, since 2008 - just doesn't happen..

Had a couple of glamour pussies claim otherwise & the did the talk part great, just pulled up a tad short when it came to the delivery side of the equation.

Oh goodness me ET: A couple of anonymous posters "vouch for you" that means you are correct beyond any doubt , where do I send the $100 to - goodness me the persuasiveness of anonymous pprune posters.


BTW nobody has had a go at answering my question "What did the Qantas Second Officer say to the the Cathay iCadet ? "

[Hempy]

FBN, mate, seriously how old are you? I don't mean to be rude but you deadset sound like you have the maturity of a 14 year old school boy. You just keep going on and on with your abject jealousy on display to everyone. You don't want to believe anyone else, thats all. It would hurt too much otherwise, obviously. Continue your denial champion, and your immature schoolyard rants. You aren't convincing anyone with your argument, but you are worth a condescending laugh.

[BlatantLiar]

Anyone who has the energy to write so many walls of text in order just to get a kick out of the responses seriously has some mental disorder...

[peterc005]

This thread is supposed to be about Free Spirit Airlines, but once again is has changed to be another cadet bashing exercise.

Got to say that FBN has quoted more first-hand facts about the cadetships than everyone else in this thread put together. I don;t see anyone here disproving FBNs assertions.

[Captain Dart]

Hey, I'll have a go, Flyboat. The QF Second Officer said to the Cathay iCadet,

'What's it like living in a crappy polluted city, a pimple on the bum of China, sharing a concrete dog box with two other cadets on a sub-standard housing allowance, inadequate salary, unemployable anywhere else, facing a hard road passing your Junior F/O upgrade because of your lack of handling skills and experience then another fifteen to twenty years to Command, if you make the grade, probably on Z-scales, and then contemplating retirement after a lifetime of brutal rosters of ultra long haul, overnight turnarounds to various Asian crap holes, permanent jet lag and aggressive management?'

[mcgrath50]

Got to say that FBN has quoted more first-hand facts about the cadetships than everyone else in this thread put together. I don;t see anyone here disproving FBNs assertions.

I've debunked his assertions about QF Cadets progress multiple times but he ignores them.

then when Jetstar kicked off CShip in mid 2010 those QF cadets still "in training" were offered places on the program , ab-initio or advanced.


Nop only 2 QF cadets ever went to Jetstar and they had to interview for the position.

The QF "get your own job" cadets - who only existed for a two year period were fastracked into Jetstar advanced & Qlink trainee ship

None were 'fast tracked' into Jetstar. See above. The last 4 QF Cadets (who began 2010) all had to interview for Qlink and got knocked back, along with almost all the traineeship interviewees during the last few months before the scheme was cancelled.

How do I know this? I sat side by side with these guys during their course at Swinburne and still keep in touch with them to this day.

:ok: Disproven assertions.

[27/09]

Have you noticed when FBN is shown to be wrong he doesn't front up and admit he was wrong he just ignores the facts or changes the criteria.

[nomorecatering]

Can we gat back to the subject of the thread.....this has to be the most boring debate in the last 10 years.

[False economy]

This mob looks to be getting into gear, interested to hear if any of the ex Vincent crew will apply since the only jobs left in Myanmar were just given away to more kiwis!:ugh:

[training wheels]

since the only jobs left in Myanmar were just given away to more kiwis!

What jobs in Myanmar are you referring to?

[onehitwonder]

Advertising, aircraft being pulled apart , infrastructure getting put in place! Beauty more jobs

[50 50]

QF first officer: Hey have you seen those posts by Flyboat North?
Cathay Cadet: Oh god is that clown still around?
QF first officer: Yep....tragic......tragic.

[False economy]

Retract last....cant be :mad:

[OSO4OSO]

Hey I saw an ad on afap from Free Spirit Airlines. Does anyone know much about this airline? It looks like they do mostly training then they put cadets into a 1900 as FOs.

There does not seem to be that much info on where they fly, how many planes they have, or really much information on free spirit. So if anyone has much info on them, can you let me know?

[Mach E Avelli]

The reason there is not much information is because they have no aircraft and fly nowhere.
But I am sure that they will have a bank account for you to send your money to.
If they are setting up for scheduled services with Beech 1900s there are other established operators who will knock them off soon enough. But, meantime no doubt some gullible souls will have donated time, effort or money in pursuit of their personal dreams. Despite history telling us that the failure rate is so high for start ups, they have a way of attracting such hopefuls.
Disclaimer! This is a rumour network so maybe even after reading everything written here about them, I have drawn a wrong conclusion and they are really out there somewhere. Flying high in cyberspace, levitating with pigs....

[chimbu warrior]

There does not seem to be that much info on where they fly, how many planes they have, or really much information on free spirit. So if anyone has much info on them, can you let me know?

Maybe let CASA know too, because from my cursory investigations on the CASA website they don't appear to have an AOC. :ooh: