General questions about unusual attitude/upset recovery

[piperboy84]

Many moons ago when I was training for my PPL, stall recovery was taught with first lowering the nose, then get the power in, I recently trained for another rating during which recovery from unusual attitude where low airspeed and high AOA was to be tackled with power in first then lower the nose, I asked the instructor why not lower the nose before putting the power in as I would imagine if this particular unusual attitude had you on the edge of a stall adding power first may aggravate the situation if the wings are not level He did not really have an answer and it got me thinking, at what point in a commercial pilots training does he/she get training for situations where they find themselves inverted for example? Is that recovery procedure covered in a certificate rating or during aircraft specific type rating?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

He did not really have an answer

Sort of like having a school teacher who does not know how to spell cat. :ugh::ugh:

[piperboy84]

This question was not about one particular instructor as the same question was asked in ground school with a different instructor who advised that the designated examiner during the checkride will be looking for power first then lowering the nose ( which again is the reverse of what was taught for the PPL)

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Then there is a systemic problem in the training industry that is worse than I thought.

Was the flying being done in an airplane with a propeller, or was it a rocket powered machine?

[maxred]

Recovery

The recovery may be discussed in three parts, but the ultimate objective is to coordinate all three actions.


To unstall

Keep the ailerons neutral. 


At the same time

Simultaneously decrease the back pressure/check forward and apply sufficient appropriate rudder to prevent further yaw.


Excessive rudder should not be applied (to level the wings through the secondary effect of rudder) as this may cause a stall and flick manoeuvre in the opposite direction to the initial roll (wing drop).


To minimise the altitude loss

Full power is smoothly but positively applied. At the same time, level the wings with aileron (as the aeroplane is now unstalled), centralise the rudder, and raise the nose smoothly to the horizon to arrest the sink and minimise the altitude loss.


Hold the nose at the level attitude, and reduce the flap setting (as appropriate to aeroplane type) immediately.


At a safe height, safe airspeed and with a positive rate of climb – raise remaining flap (counter the pitch change). The aeroplane will continue to accelerate, and at the nominated climb speed select the climb attitude.


Straight and level flight should be regained at the starting altitude and the reference point or heading regained.


Also...

If the aeroplane is reluctant to drop a wing at the stall, alter the power and flap combination (refer CFI) and relax rudder pressure to simulate the pilot's failure to maintain directional control. Alternatively, a gentle turn may be required (5 degrees angle of bank). 


There is nothing underhand about these techniques, as permitting the aeroplane to yaw or stall in the turn are possible causes of a wing-drop stall.


In addition, avoid an accelerated stall (by zooming the entry) which may produce a rapid roll. The student should see a rapid stall at some point in their training, but the first stall is not the time for it. If a pronounced wing-drop occurs, the application of full power may need to be delayed to avoid exceeding flap limiting speeds,
or on the Piper Tomahawk, VNE.


The above is what I would expect to hear for a stall recovery. In my view, powering up, in a developed stall, with a high AoA, is an advanced aerobatic maneuver, and really should not be attempted in instructional, stall and incipient spin awareness. Particularly in a School PPL, training type aeroplane.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

How many people have been killed in Twin Comanche's adding power before reducing angle of attack in stalls?

[maxred]

Was it not that the Twin Comm had a beautiful tendency to go straight into an irrecoverable flat spin. Hence a total revision of min airspeeds with engine out?

Or am I thinking of something else?

[Whopity]

recovery from unusual attitude where low airspeed and high AOA I sugest you are confusing Attitude with AoA, they are not the same thing. It is usual in practicing UPs to give the student a hight nose attitude with decreasing airspeed, if the aircraft is accelerated at the start of the manoeuvre, the AoA will be quite low because the aeroplane is actually going where it is pointing, upwards. When stalling, you entered from a power off level attitude.

[Maoraigh1]

CAA Safety Notice SN-2014-003 Stall Recovery Technique, issued 3 March 2014, might be relevant.

[maxred]

2.1 The use of an incorrect technique when attempting to recover from a stall has been identified as a causal factor in several LOC accidents. The standard stall recovery technique should always emphasise the requirement to reduce the angle of attack in order to return the aeroplane to a safe flying condition. When an approach to the stall is recognised early, and the correct recovery action is initiated without delay, this reduction in angle of attack (and consequential height loss) will be minimised.

Is it not slightly concerning that in 2014, the CAA deem it necessary to publish this document, as an update to the 2013 document of the same vein?

[Level Attitude]

Whopity's answer is correct.
The OP mentions Stall recovery and then Unusual Attitude Recovery in the same sentence.
They are not the same.

For UA: Power - Roll - Pitch works well.
Power: Throttle - Out if nose below horizon, In if nose above horizon.
Roll: To the nearest (erect) horizon.
Pitch: For level flight.

For Stall: Reduce AoA (Stick Forward if erect) asap

If close to/or in a stall then use Standard Stall Recovery irrespective of attitude. Once unstalled, then carry out UA recovery (if still necessary).

[Miserlou]

Agreed. Adding power quickly at critical AoA may cause the aircraft to stall in a propeller driven aircraft if the elevator input has not been reduced.

However, In the case of the nose high unusual attitude my company SOP is very sensible in including roll in the recovery.
!. Add thrust full.
2. Increase bank.
3. Establish appropriate pitch attitude.
4. Level wings.

The rolling away from level reduces the risk of stalling and allows the nose to fall resulting in lower load levels.

Of course, 3 and 4 occur almost simultaneously. Not suggesting one should level the nose whilst still banked.

[Heston]

You've got to be very careful about the advice given on this one folks. This is the Private Flying section of the forum, which tends to suggest SEP aircraft to me. So talk of "my company's SOP" rings alarm bells and suggests you are talking about bigger stuff. For SEP it is always:


UA with nose above horizon - stick forward and increase power, level wings once healthy airspeed shown. Recover into full power climb.


UA with nose below horizon - power(reduce), roll, pitch. Recover into full power climb.

[piperboy84]

I sugest you are confusing Attitude with AoA, they are not the same thing.

Yes, I have, further reading required.

It is interesting to note that the 3 prior posts list 3 different recovery sequences, for what it's worth linked is a AOPA vid on the subject







Unusual Attitude Recovery - General Aviation Flying Videos - AOPA (http://www.aopa.org/AOPA-Live.aspx?watch=xuMDZyMjqajge0JjQqjO9AiPFP9HUW9n)

[Level Attitude]

UA with nose above horizon - stick forward why if definitely not stalled/close to stall? and increase power POWER, level wings once healthy airspeed shown ROLL. Recover into full power climb PITCH.UA with nose below horizon - power(reduce) POWER, roll ROLL, pitch PITCH. Recover into full power climb.This is the Private Flying section of the forum, which tends to suggest SEP aircraft to meSEP Yes - but what about differing levels of Pilot experience and/or skill (note OP's original question).

However, In the case of the nose high unusual attitude my company SOP is very sensible in including roll in the recovery.
!. Add thrust full.
2. Increase bank.
3. Establish appropriate pitch attitude.
4. Level wings.I disagree with this slightly:
1) POWER: Full
2) ROLL: Increase Bank Angle then, as aircraft nose drops (knifes down), Reduce Bank Angle at a rate such that wings are level when aircraft is at, or close to, usual attitude for level flight.
3) PITCH: (If necessary) to fine tune attitude for level flight.
Reset throttle as appropriate.

The above is great fun and, I believe, reduces the stresses on the aircraft (and the occupants). However, as it requires good coordination (especially to prevent going in to an Unusual Attitude downwards), it is usually only 'taught' on more advanced courses.

So, to answer the OP's original question, Power first is taught for unusual attitudes because the first thing to do in any developing situation is to prevent it from getting worse.

Of course student/early pilots may not have the necessary experience to distinguish between a nose high UA nowhere near a stall and one that is close to it so, in that situation, reducing the AoA is probably the best way to prevent the situation getting worse - but that was not the question.

[Cows getting bigger]

I think it important to fully understand the scenario. As others have intimated, if this is an UA recovery on instruments, especially limited panel, power and attitude should be applied concurrently. After all, power + attitude = performance.

Stalls are different - there is no suggestion that this UA scenario was even close to a stall.

[maxred]

I suggest you are confusing Attitude with AoA

Posted by Whopity.

I think it important to fully understand the scenario. As others have intimated, if this is an UA recovery on instruments, especially limited panel, power and attitude should be applied concurrently. After all, power + attitude = performance.

Posted by CGB

It is interesting to note that the 3 prior posts list 3 different recovery sequences, for what it's worth linked is a AOPA vid on the subject

Posted by the OP

Confused yet????

You've got to be very careful about the advice given on this one folks. This is the Private Flying section of the forum, which tends to suggest SEP aircraft to me. So talk of "my company's SOP" rings alarm bells and suggests you are talking about bigger stuff. For SEP it is always:


UA with nose above horizon - stick forward and increase power, level wings once healthy airspeed shown. Recover into full power climb.


UA with nose below horizon - power(reduce), roll, pitch. Recover into full power climb.

Posted by Heston. The best advice I think.

+1 f

[Miserlou]

LA.

I did say,

"Of course, 3 and 4 occur almost simultaneously. Not suggesting one should level the nose whilst still banked."

Maxred,

Before diverting attention away from the sound advice, please remember that even the smallest clubs will have an Operations Manual, SOPs or Flying Orders Book.
Also, please specify what's wrong with the method or technique rather than just dismissing it.

FYI, I am an experienced aerobatic/tailwheel pilot who just happens to fly for work too.

[BEagle]

...the designated examiner during the checkride will be looking for power first then lowering the nose...

Surely this stupidity has been changed now? Reduction of AoA is the overriding concern; this absurd FAA examiner nonsense of 'no loss of height' should have been firmly kicked into the long grass in the USA - as it has been everywhere else.

[The500man]

A problem it seems to me is that we have a:



Stall recovery procedure
Spin recovery procedure
Unusual attitude recovery procedure
Upset recovery procedure
Loss of control recovery procedure


Now what is going on and which one are you going to use this time?

I'm also slightly confused with that AOPA video. Is he teaching instrument recoveries or did he just forget to mention that you can easily see what's going on by looking out the window? Airspeed is a good initial indication but beyond that...

[maxred]

Before diverting attention away from the sound advice

That surely is the problem at hand, and what this thread appears to be confirming. What is the advice, because we have numerous situations, with numerous views on where to go.

The reduction of AoA is paramount, followed by almost instant, simultaneous, controlled actions, for the given situation. I was conscious that you mentioned that your points 3, and 4, were almost simultaneous. Going back to the OP, he appears to have been given confusing advice, and when he queried it, was told, I don't really know?

The subsequent points in this thread, confirms that a lot of instructional teaching, is at odds. That would appear to now be the discussion.

Oh, I am also an experienced, aerobatic, tail wheel pilot. But fly other stuff too..

[mad_jock]

This question was not about one particular instructor as the same question was asked in ground school with a different instructor who advised that the designated examiner during the checkride will be looking for power first then lowering the nose

Well report that designated examiner then. He is testing away from both the FAA and EASA methods.

[mary meagher]

Start with no engine, keeping it simple. How do you stall a glider? pull the stick back. How do you unstall a glider? ease the stick forward.

Then they add engines that pull or push, and complicate your life....but basically the above still works. You don't have to shove it! usually just ease the stick forward to correct the angle of attack. In fact, if the aircraft is properly trimmed, just LET GO OF EVERYTHING and the recovery should follow.
That one is fun to try, but it is useful to keep wings level.

Had a student in a K-13 who got a bit over excited in stall recovery, and moved the stick forward with such force I rose up in my seat and had a bit of a stretch to reach it...I HAVE CONTROL! Just let go, dear. (view from canopy all green, no blue at all....)

[tmmorris]

Never flown one but... I assume in an ac with high thrust line (e.g. Flying boats of various types) power first would be indicated, as this will lower the nose in any case?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Never flown one but... I assume in an ac with high thrust line (e.g. Flying boats of various types) power first would be indicated, as this will lower the nose in any case?

No.

Applying power when the wing is stalled will induce roll and yaw.

[Miserlou]

Maxred,

Just noticed you were quoting Heston about citing SOP's. Still unwarranted criticism.

It is true there appears to be some confusion where the OP and yourself are confusing stall recovery with 'nose high unusual attitude' recovery. Shame the OP's instructor didn't know the difference.

One requires reducing AoA immediately. The other involves reducing the further increase on AoA.

[Heston]

Yeah but that's the point. The training for SEP is to use the standard stall recovery technique for nose-high unusual attitudes - because you don't have to work out what situation you are in - you just do the safe thing. Always reduce AoA first.

[mad_jock]

to be honest both just require you to put the nose back on the straight and level attitude with a cruise rpm set and the plane will sort itself out.

It can be argued that a stall is an unusually attitude.

To be honest I have been in more flight upsets than stalls outside training. Usually because of 757's or Sea king helicopters.

[Miserlou]

Heston,

Then Chuck is exactly right about a systematic problem in the training industry being worse than we thought. When absolutes are introduced instead of understanding.

That 'safe thing' will allow the aircraft to stall/spin with a sufficiently nose high unusual attitude without the introduction of bank.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Applying power when the wing is stalled will induce roll and yaw.

Exactly. There are aerobatic manouvres which rely on this, but you don't want to induce the situation unintentionally.

When the wing is flying, aerodynamics are in control (generally!). When the wing is stalled, dynamics are in control (generally!).

[piperboy84]

Just so we're taking apples to apples here, some views on definitions would be helpful, let me see if I have this right

Unusual Attitude

As it relates to IFR flight, an unintential attitud,if above the horizon up to but prior to a stall, if below the horizon a spiral dive or spin but not inverted.

Upset

Inverted

And each condition I.e stall, unusual attitude, Upset depending on where you are on the chain of events with possibly one condition leading to the other if unchecked requires the different input sequences for recovery,

Which gets back to my original questions where along the training process do pilots get upset (inverted) recovery training?

[mad_jock]

in general if your VMC you will spot it before it happens and correct.

In IMC if your scan goes then you can suddenly realise your in it of you get thrown on your back by natural causes.

So for me anyway upset was only really taught in my IR rating.