Careful with your bidding ...

[nakbin330]

New York, Boston and Washington ... multiple (3) crew, from next month.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Yep.... Two captains and 1 FO from what I heard.

Kap

[mmorel]

why not two FOs and One captain like what Air France does.

[Rim-job]

How do you know it's a 3 man crew? Where does it state that?

I checked the pairing reports and couldn't detect anything there.

[SOPS]

Didn't they try this once before?

[GoreTex]

they tried but some of us didn't go into discretion, many did tho.

[ruserious]

yep, just checked the pairing for JFK
TRIP # 201 (MT) [1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0]
TRIP # 5201 (MT) [0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0]

So only a Capt on the 5201.

Looks like 203/5203 is OK tho

[Cloud Bunny]

Just had a quick look (really need a life) and BOS is showing as 2 Capts and 1 FO but IAD still sowing as a 4 man crew. Hmmmmmm.....

[Panther 88]

How does that work? Haven't been in the right seat for years. Is there a requirement to be current in the seat one occupies? Interesting.

[lowstandard]

1000 points to avoid CKY
Company strangely silent on Ebola outbreak.

[PGA]

Operational Update | About Emirates | Emirates United Arab Emirates (http://www.emirates.com/ae/english/about/operational_updates/operational_updates.aspx)

[myekppa]

Good luck with your 1000 pts avoid CKY bid...

[flareflyer]

Unbelievable.......
3 men crew......
But the sad thing is that most of us will go into discretion......:ugh:

[HighLow]

Guys Guys !!!
What does your Chp 7 say the limit is ? Can you all agree on what the max FDP is and margin before one goes into discretion for this JFK trip u mention ;
So answers please ; Ya got to put things into Context before having a gripe to the internet community , ....

BTW: authorities will contact the airline in question if a certain leg
Is going into discretion too much and instruct the airline to resolve any Flt issues without delay; guess crew members will have to keep track of all reports and if concerned ;follow up with the authorities to ensure they have received your report.

So guys calculators out please ; what's the limit ???
We can't comment until facts are present ! Otherwise enjoy your flight to the big apple ; your bar bill just got cheaper with a man down ;)

Furthermore: If your crew reduction on this trip is true ; is this actually going to take place all ahead of the well publicised runway closure in Dubai ? Interesting times for sure , so answers please ...

[The Zohan]

ek201 is a 14:45 hrs duty. 3 crew with 4 hrs rest in the CRC can work for 15 hrs (13+2) before discretion. am I right?

tz

[Mr Good Cat]

A bit silly to try this during the runway closure period.

Delays will almost certainly result in necessary FTL discretion.

[TheDarkHorse]

So I'll be making sure that my times are marked correctly, I work them out and double and triple check and then when it comes to going into discretion I shall be giving my thumbs down. Why should I risk the lives of my crew and passengers just so that the company can save a few fils because heaven forbid anything happens it'll be my fault.

[fatbus]

Planned 15 hrs is not the flight plan time it's planned time from statistical winds . This was done on the 345 one or two summers and yes 15 -20 mins to spare before discretion . Poor planning based on the Rwy closure . Just had a look, it's 1415 duty for FTL's the 30 mins post flight are for rest planning.

[Modesh]

Gents, Calm down.

A pairing is categorised as an Ultra Long Range (ULR) Operation when the scheduled flight time could exceed 14 hours taking into account the mean and seasonal wind changes

So if at any time during the year the flight time is over 14 hrs a flight is a ULR.
It remains a ULR even if the flight time drops below 14hrs..I.e JFK in summer.

Now...All ULR's must be planned with 4 crew..

A ULR crew will normally comprise of 2 Captains and 2 First Officers but may be revised to 1 Captain and 3 First Officers subject to the approval of DSVP-FO

It is clearly a miss print on the trips descriptions as it also shows all 3am departure variation flights (MAA,COK etc) having 3 crew as well.

M

[fatbus]

Fliion , just so you know the 3 man thing has been report to the FAA before, but by all means go ahead. Last time they did nothing, the FAA audit was right after that summer .

[Mr Angry from Purley]

In the UK its 33% discretion before action has to be taken (over the season)
I once did 100% discretion on a DC10 flight to Tenerife with a 1hr turn at TFS (as the aircraft was covering a B757 flight). The main reason was the flight went at 0555z which was a crap reporting time - no chance of a delay to 0600z due slots. At the end of the season Commercial rang me and said they had changed the times for the next summer - much excitement - until they told me it was going at 0550z instead :ugh:

I guess the question is instead of venting on the forum why not just ring someone up and ask?

I suspect Xulu has hit the nail on the head. Does the Commander take the last break?

[TheDarkHorse]

Fliion,

Right with ya at the FSDO - this sort of policy and decision making should be stamped out although I suspect it will require the might of a government and restrictions on air travel to counteract this potential major safety issue.
Its a risk to crew and passengers lives.

[cerbus]

Flying over 900 hours is not a safety issue?
Just did the Taipei flight. 9:47 flight time and TWO pilots in the middle of the night! Does anyone think this is remotely safe? Emirates has been doing this crap for years.

[glofish]

I second that emotion.

What i do not believe is that the FAA, or by that any aviation authority, will do a lot about it. They are all heavily undermined by the local airlines who want nothing more than emulate how the Middle Eastern airlines abuse fdr's and by that safety.

The only defence, and by that a legal one, is to deny going into discretion too early. You can always, and by that i mean always say, that you cannot at the beginning of an operation seriously judge your state of fatigue at its end, thus discretion at the beginning of a US flight must be considered careless and will be considered as that by any judge in case of incidents. This is for a single leg. With a double leg never refuse to go! Just ask them, as a preemptive information, where the relief crew will be sent, in case you will be obliged by law to deny going into discretion due to fatigue. "Will it be Karachi or Muscat?".

Stay within the book and common sense. Any threats following a denial of discretion is a completely different matter then. That's the time aviation authorities must start action, the one of the originating just as much as the one of the arriving country.

And always remember: This is for the cause of safety in aviation and never against any company!

[cerbus]

Is there anyway we can find the identity of some of our fellow posters here on pprune? I strongly suspect that some of the Soft C0ck5 on pprune are posting from the management offices.

[aussiefarmer]

Cerbus, that contravenes the rules of the forum.

Back to the topic.

Do you guys believe that 201 and others will be op with 2 capt and 1 FO?

Maybe I am missing something, but for that, Capts have to be right hand seat qualified and as far as I know nobody except trainers are.

[fliion]

I made a phone call and was told it won't happen so I removed my post.

Standing by

f.

[lospilotos]

Don't think the augmenting captain need to be RHS-qualified, at least the way EK is doing it now. The FOs aren't LHS-qualified and that's why the pilot that is PF at any given time should be in the seat that he/she is qualified for. That raises the question though, what if the PF needs to take a "comfort break" during the time let's say a FO is in the LHS? That leaves only the PM now also PF in a seat that he/she is not qualified for.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Flying over 900 hours is not a safety issue?
Just did the Taipei flight. 9:47 flight time and TWO pilots in the middle of the night! Does anyone think this is remotely safe? Emirates has been doing this crap for years.

Obviously it is because you are still alive. Unless your ghost is posting on your behalf.

[cerbus]

Just because I survived doesn't mean it is safe. It means I survived through no help from Emirates.
9:47 through the middle of the night and you think that is safe?

[Tight Seat]

9:47 during the night. No different to a night India turn. Not saying it's right just saying we did the same in Europe on the way to TFS or LCA .

[nolimitholdem]

Obviously it is because you are still alive. Unless your ghost is posting on your behalf.

Just wow.

The old "nothing happened so it must be safe. Such a refreshingly proactive take on safety.

Can't wait to see how THAT holds up in some courtroom some day. "Well we got away with nonsense for years, so we kinda...thought...y'know..." *voice trails off*

[Lord Spandex Masher]

The question was "Does anyone think this is remotely safe?".

Remotely - in the slightest degree. It is because an accident doesn't happen every time this flight operates.

Obviously, organising your time off so you're rested properly before such a duty means you won't be so dangerous when you're operating what is a pretty common duty in other parts of the world.

[JayGatsby]

Remotely - in the slightest degree. It is because an accident doesn't happen every time this flight operates.

Yeah talk semantics to me!

Not having an accident on a flight doesn't mean it was safe, it just means you survived. Theres no connection anyway, in the logical sense you suggest - you could have a flight which was conducted very safely which still resulted in an accident...

Obviously, organising your time off so you're rested properly before such a duty means you won't be so dangerous when you're operating what is a pretty common duty in other parts of the world.

No its not common and in any case - two wrongs would not make a right

[Lord Spandex Masher]

So is this a dangerous flight conducted safely?

You better let the UK charter boys know it's not common.

[Snake man]

“There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one’s own safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn’t, but if he was sane he would have to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn’t have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.

[fatbus]

So from these posts one would assume there will be no one going into discretion. Who cares to bet on that.

[helen-damnation]

Don't think the augmenting captain need to be RHS-qualified, at least the way EK is doing it now. The FOs aren't LHS-qualified and that's why the pilot that is PF at any given time should be in the seat that he/she is qualified for. That raises the question though, what if the PF needs to take a "comfort break" during the time let's say a FO is in the LHS? That leaves only the PM now also PF in a seat that he/she is not qualified for.

Correct.
EK OM-D 2.1.3.6

[cerbus]

FOs got left seat training when they were initially trained. I was never an FO on the airplane I am flying and I never received right seat training in decompression, emergency descent and TCAS maneuvers. Therefore I am not qualified to sit in the right seat.
I strongly suspect numerous captains have not sat in the right seat in years and is out currency to sit in the right seat without additional right hand seat training.
On another note the FAA is looking into EK application's to fly the A-380 to SFO. The FAA is finally concerned that the flight attendants are only getting 2 1/2 hours of rest on the ULRs which sometimes are 16 hours of flight time.

[Schnowzer]

Not true, as a Captain you are qualified for either seat and only a CPL is anyway required to sit in the other seat. Also because the AFS system is essentially identical from both seats there is no additional training requirement in the cruise. The aircraft is designed to be operated with the PF in their normal operating seat when below cruise altitude. Before you start blaming EK this principle comes from FARs and EASA Regs too.

You'll need a better argument than that, after all most of the time guys whine they don't get enough authority so hopping 4 feet right with a Captain in the other seat shouldn't be too onerous.

[Will Rogers]

So sad if its true!

@Modesh: It is indeed a ULR flight as it meets the requirement for the same. As such the FDP tables do not apply but the max FDP is 22 hrs. And unfortunately a ULR flight doesn't have to be planned with 4 crew. Reference OM-A Ch 7, annex 7.C.1 (g) and (h). For a flight with a FLIGHT time under 15 hrs 3 pilots are allowed.

@lospilots: As previously stated EK F/O's receive some training in the left seat in order to qualify them to operate from that seat during augment ops although the OM-D doesn't seem to actually mention that as a requirement. The OM-D only states that one must demonstrate practice of drills and procedures which would have been the commanders responsibility and if these differences are not significantly different between the seats then this can be demonstrated in either seat (OM-D 2.1.3.6).

@Schnowzer: Incorrect actually. A commander who is required to operate from the right hand seat has to be trained accordingly. Reference OM-A 5.2.12 and OM-D 2.1.3.6.1 And this training actually has to be done from the RHS.

So unfortunately its all legal! I guess the other question is: Is it smart? Well...:ugh::cool:

/Will

[Kernow 101]

As a CPT are you not checked in the RHS at the end of every annual LPC?

[Modesh]

Dear Will rogers

I think you may be confusing planned and on the day operations.

All ULRs must be planned 4 crew.

However on the day it may operate 3 crew if one crew member is sick and ...

1. Not ex DXB
2. Flight time less than 15hrs
3. No sig MEL
4. Crew accept to do so.

Ta M

[fatbus]

In summer they usea shorter overall sector lenght and it changes from ULR to SLR and crew can be reduced to 3. Max duty @15 hrs can't be bothered to check but I'm sure some of the FAA space boys will.

[Modesh]

No such thing as SLR any more.

SLR Was used on JFK on A340 long time ago but not in any manual now.

All are ULR and all ULR must be planned 4 crew.

[Will Rogers]

Dear Modesh,

Actually no. I'm aware of what you're referring to but that's part of the "contingency provisions" (OM-A 7.C.7) where, once more, the max flt time is limited to 15 hrs.

I was referring to OM-A 7.C.1 (g) where it states that for any ULR flight a 3 man crew operation is not permitted for any ULR sector with a scheduled FLIGHT time in excess of 15 hours. Which of course means that for a scheduled flight time of less then 15 hours it is permitted. Law is a wonderful thing to interpret...

That said I agree with you that section (h) of the same paragraph makes it all a bit confusing. The problem here I believe is the lack of the words "must" or "shall" in the OM-A. The only word used is "normally" which doesn't really mean anything.

Don't get me wrong here. I think this is all nuts but I'm just saying that it's actually probably legal subject to a revised ULR operational plan for the pairing in question. Unfortunately!

I stand by to be corrected but I would love a reference if you don't mind.

Cheers,

Will

[lospilotos]

@lospilots: As previously stated EK F/O's receive some training in the left seat in order to qualify them to operate from that seat during augment ops although the OM-D doesn't seem to actually mention that as a requirement


Well as a EK FO that trained on type a couple of years ago I can tell you I never received LHS training. It was in fact in the syllabus, but was skipped with the words "it's not a requirement anymore"

[harry the cod]

"It's not a requirement anymore"......along with the comprehensive EFB training I'm sure we all received. Still, forcefully removing the paper charts in the sim at least abdicates the responsibility from them and places it firmly at our feet as we muddle through those wonderfully intuitive computers, from whichever seat we're sat in!

Excellence in training? Really? I don't think so but don't let those at the top stop convincing themselves otherwise. I read it in the latest SAFA so I guess it must be true!

Harry

[falconeasydriver]

Regarding seat qualification, there is no need to be qualified in the seat if you are augmenting and acting as PM.

OMA 8.3.10.2.2.......look for paragraph C.

All shall be revealed, but of course all the book experts here knew that already right?

[777X]

9:47 during the night. No different to a night India turn. Not saying it's right just saying we did the same in Europe on the way to TFS or LCA .

I'm guessing these are 2am pickups from home (little or no sleep), 24 hour layover with little/no sleep in the 12-16 hours preceding return pick up time, and landing red eye after 10 hour night flight to base. That is far more tiering than a night charter flight in Europe I would say.

Took me close 6 months to get fully back into a normal sleep cycle after my last stint at e/w long haul. I could sleep off a night "there and back" charter within a day or so.

[Praise Jebus]

Left seat training for emergency descent, tcas and engine failure in the cruise was once a requirement for FO's but the sim time ultimately could not be justified, you act as PM when in the LHS. The risk of decompression etc when the right seat pilot leaves the cockpit for a leak was considered too small to justify the training. Have to agree.

[SOPS]

So how does the OM A get approved if the above is correct?

[cerbus]

So when the CAAP says cabin crew shall get 3 1/2 hours rest on any ULR flight does that mean all of our ULRs are illegal?
On the A-380 the FAs are lucky to get 2 1/2 hours of rest. Shocking!

[The Outlaw]

Those rules only apply if you operate a defined "ULR" flight, which one could argue that we don't (with the exception being LAX perhaps).

From CAAP 14:

6.2 Definitions

6.2.1 Ultra Long Range Operation (ULR)
An operation involving any sector between a specific City Pairing (Point A- Point B-Point A) where the scheduled flight time could exceed 16 hours at any time during a calendar year taking into account the mean and seasonal wind changes.
The maximum permitted FDP (including Ramp/Air Turn Backs) for any ULR operation is 22:00 hours on both a scheduled/planned and actual basis.
Note: A ULR operation applies to both sectors of a city pair.

[Mango]

Emphasis on "ULR"
Those rules only apply if you operate a defined "ULR" flight, which one could argue that we don't (with the exception being LAX perhaps).

From CAAP 14:

6.2 Definitions

6.2.1 Ultra Long Range Operation (ULR)
An operation involving any sector between a specific City Pairing (Point A- Point B-Point A) where the scheduled flight time could exceed 16 hours at any time during a calendar year taking into account the mean and seasonal wind changes.
The maximum permitted FDP (including Ramp/Air Turn Backs) for any ULR operation is 22:00 hours on both a scheduled/planned and actual basis.
Note: A ULR operation applies to both sectors of a city pair.


If that is the case then why do we have to be acclimatized for SYD, MEL, JFK...???

[lospilotos]

Because EK's OM-A defines ULR as >14 hours...

[lospilotos]

What is that standby duty prior to 225/215/261/229/211 that we are often assigned, called?

Standby for ULR?

[helen-damnation]

SBU, SBU 1 or 2 :ok:

[Modesh]

Hi Will,

The statement OM-A 7.C.1 (g)

A 3 man crew operation is not permitted for any ULR sector with a scheduled Flight Time in excess of 15 hours.

This simply backs up the statement in the contingency provisions. It is not for planning.

No authority in the world would allow a planned duty of up to 22Hrs with three crew on a regular (normal) basis. (All be it with the restriction of initial flight time<15Hrs)

Sure 3 crew ULR's are allowed in order to get the aircraft back from an outstation if there is late sickness. This is a non-normal situation which is not planned and hence they have the contingency provisions..

1. Not ex DXB
2. Flight time less than 15hrs
3. No sig MEL
4. Crew accept to do so.

Thoughts??
M

[flareflyer]

Sorry if i might seem quite basic but if we are kegal to fly three crew we just do it.
Are we into discretion after 15' delay?????
Again, quite basic....we simply dont go into discretion..... Is that complicated????

[desertflyer]

EK tried the 3 man crew about 7-8 years ago. There is only 15-20 minutes of time at the gate before you are out of time. Best one I heard on the freq. one morning was from the Captain of 201 who called ops and told them either send the crew bus for the pilots to go home, or a fourth pilot; the 4 th guy miraculously appeared in short order............

[Modesh]

FF,

My understanding of ULR rules is that there is no such thing as discretion. You can do up to 22hrs. No mention of discretion in the ULR OP Plan.

If you divert and decide not to continue with the next sector because you are too tired and it's not safe, then so be it.

The whole point they changed from SLR (a340 days (3 crew JFK)) to ULR (4 crew) is for "OPS FLEX".

Too many crews running out of hours with diversions and with tech issue ex dxb.

It means we need to be planned with 4 crew but we can do 22hrs generally without question.

This is also why I understand a ULR's cannot "normally" be planned with 3 crew.

For info:- Under normal FTL's (Not ULR rules) 3 Crew can do 16:15 duty going to BOS.

Now once a city pairing is defined as a ULR it remains a ULR the whole year so it can not be rostered 4 crew ULR winter and 3 crew non-ULR summer. (See CAAP 14 City Pair)

Currently all USA flights are defined as ULR's in EK bid package.

thoughts?

M

[flareflyer]

Modesh,
your explanation is very clear and logic!
I hope that it is understood in the same way by our manager......
FF

[fatbus]

It's not 3 man ULR, it's just 3 man flt and an amendment to to ops plan . Don't go into discretion .

[Modesh]

Dear Fatbus,

If you are talking about BOS. Just do a roster search for BOS.
At the end of the Trip Details it says ULR.
So under the city pairs rule it must be ULR in summer too...no?

M

[Rather Be Skiing]

According to B777 CP at todays wash-up, BOS is 3 man for summer and reverts to 4 man for winter sched.

[Modesh]

Strange as the block DXB-BOS

MAR (4 crew) = 13:30
APR (4 crew) = 13:30

And in MAY (3 Crew) the block is.....13:30

Anybody see any differences that i'm missing?

For info BOS-DXB is 5 mins less in MAY?

??
M

[fatbus]

It's not really a ULR, able to down grade to 3 guys any time , I think YYZ,201 and maybe IAD are the same. Don't go into discretion .

[Panther 88]

So if the above is the case, can we expect not to see SBU on any of these flights? I mean, they're saying it's not a ULR. From my weak mind, doesn't SBU stand for Standby ULR? Just asking.

[FUSE PLUG]

Would you also then not need to be acclimatized prior to a US flight with 3 pilots? Correct me if I'm wrong, but augmenting ops do not require the three local nights prior to undertaking duty. A three man crew can still be unacclimatized assuming the extension is sufficient for the FDP to complete the flight.

Can I now come straight off of leave and hop into a cockpit with only 3 guys and cross the Atlantic without the current provision to in DXB for three days prior to a US trip?

I just want to make sure I have this clear... So we remove a pilot from the cockpit, reduce the amount of days off required before and after the flight, then go flying over the North Atlantic for 13h30m. :eek:

I'm baffled by the gaping hole in the Swiss cheese this could create.

"Visionary" leadership indeed:mad:

Keep Rowing!!!

[fliion]

In that case:

No discretion
ASR
CSR
FSDO

In that order.

Good news is no chance of bumps & no sleep during the skippers rest...right?

f.

[The Turtle]

I agree with you Fuse....that was the first thing that occurred to me regarding this pattern too...the rest req before.

[lospilotos]

If ULR standby is assigned, it must be a ULR trip.


It only means that you are standby to to another flight that might be an ULR, you are acclamatized and all that... It's "Standby for ULR" not "Standby before ULR".

[helen-damnation]

for EK'ers:

Annex 7.C.1 - ULR Operational Plan

para a; A pairing is categorised as an Ultra Long Range (ULR) Operation when the scheduled flight time could exceed 14 hours taking into account the mean and seasonal wind changes.

IMHO JFK/IAD are ULR. Probably BOS as well. Makes sense for the company as the FDP is longer.

para g; A 3 man crew operation is not permitted for any ULR sector with a scheduled Flight Time in excess of 15 hours.

IMHO, a 3 man ULR crew is legal from the UAE to the North Eastern USA.

Based on para g, it can be argued that a 3 man crew would/should have an FDP limit of 16 hours.

Doing the maths, EK201 in May has a Westbound block of 13:45. 1 hour pre-flight start of duty means a rostered FDP of 14:45. Therefore, any delay of more than 1:15 takes you over the 16 hours FDP.

However, 7.15; A Commander may exercise his discretion to extend an FDP…. this may be up to 3 hours prior to the start of a single sector flight…

Therefore, it could be argued you can do upto 19 hours FDP.


Additionally; 7.C.7 Contingency Provisions - Operational disruption

7.C.7 - c.2 Refers to return operations to DXB but the company acknowledges there is an increased workload with 3 crew.

7.C.7 - c.3 Again refers to return operations - Dispatch is not permitted with an aircraft system unserviceability that would require a higher than normal workload on behalf of the remaining flight crew during approach and landing. Be careful what you take down route.

7.C.7 - c.4 Return operations - Any flight dispatched with only 3 flight crew shall be limited to a maximum Flight Time of 15 hours :hmm:


I'm not advocating any particular action. Just thought the above may be of interest. Take care out there!

[Modesh]

Dear HD,

I can see how you came up with that however please consider this...

h. A ULR crew will normally comprise of 2 Captains and 2 First Officers but may be revised to 1 Captain and 3 First Officers subject to the approval of DSVP-FO.

At no point does it say a normal crew is 3.

The g statement backs up and repeats the contingency provision rule.

There is no discretion on ULR's, its up to 22hrs duty.

So if as you say, a 3 crew ULR can be planned then FDP for 3 crew ULR is still 22hrs! (With the initial flt planned at <15hrs) Is any authority really going to allow a planned FDP of up to 22hrs for 3 crew???

JFK and IAD are ULR's as defined by EK as block is >14hrs during the year.

As Fatbus says BOS is not by EK definition a ULR, however is it being operated as a ULR currently. See trip info.

If they are to operate BOS as a 3 crew it should be under normal FTL's for all year. City pair rules.

They can't say the flight time is less in the summer as the block as published is the same for APR and MAY.

APR (4 crew) 13:30 and MAY (3 Crew) 13:30

M

[helen-damnation]

Mostly all agreed, my post was just MHO and interpretation.

para G clearly, IMHO, states that a 3 man crew can operate a ULR flight which by definition would be planned between 14-15 hours flight time.

Para G is in the ULR Operational Plan, not the Contingency section. The same wording in the contingency section simply backs up the "normal" and limits the contingency operation, i.e. you still can't do more that 15 hours in a contingency situation.

Whichever way you choose to read it, I won't be doing any 22 hour FDPs with 3 crew, probably not with 4! Just because it's "legal" doesn't mean it's safe.

[Kawasaki787]

FTL's are designed to stop fatigue onset. Tiredness starts when one reports for duty.

Ironically, EK plans on a report time of 60 minutes prior to STD. But what actually happens is pilots report between 90 and 100 minutes prior to STD.

So if one reports at the aircraft less than 60 minutes, then he/she must answer to his manager as to why he is late!! Doesn't make sense.

Most EK flights are into discretion from the beginning.

A three man crew operation is not workable, particularly when operating from a crowded airport with frequent departure delays.

Ensure your bacon is well covered before accepting such flights!!!

[Modesh]

From CAAP 14.


7.4.1
Flight Crew compliment and composition
Each ULR flight is to be operated by no less than four (4) pilots of whom two (2) must be pilot-in-command qualified.
The duty flight crew shall comprise at least two pilots of which one crewmember is pilot- in-command qualified.


My understanding of CAAP is that EK can be more conservative but not less.

Eg. CAAP defines ULR>16hr flt time and Ek defines ULR>14.

However CAAP also says down route rest must be 48hrs and cabin crew must have 3.5 hrs rest!!!

[Gulf News]

What we are witnessing here is classic corporate politics of the expatriate kind. BM (Manager Regulatory Affairs) retired earlier in the year and we now have a new kid on the block who is trying to make his mark and ingratiate himself to his superiors by finding loopholes in the CARS. If he can show that it saves money he will be on a fast track to SVP.

BM had been around for years and seen it all tried before. Last time the three crew thing was tried it was a disaster and there was only JFK to think about. At that time The Chief Pilot Airbus, who was new to the job, and trying to impress instructed the dispatchers to make all flight plans for JFK indicate a departure from 30R and arrival JFK 22L to make the flight times appear shorter regardless of prevailing conditions.

This whole plan will look great on paper but will become an an unmitigated disaster when put into practice with our average on time performance being around 70% within 15 minutes of scheduled OBT even without a runway closure.

To EK Pilots I say be very clear on your understanding of the FDP limitations regarding ULR and apply them intelligently.

[harry the cod]

In a recent edition of SAFA, wasn't JFK the only destination never to have departed on time?

I agree with Gulf News, new kid trying to impress. It's not his licence on the block when everything goes pear shaped! May I suggest for those rostered these 3 man ULR's a very close look at the rules and regulations followed by an email to those concerned. Don't just sit back in the hope someone else will fight your battle.

Harry

[SOPS]

Am I correct in saying that if it's a 3 man crew, then by definition, it's not a ULR?

[a747jb]

Hi All,

We had a good look at this on my last flight. At the moment, everyone is focusing on the outbound flight as it is the longest, but the reality is, it is legal. Its very tight, but the company is expecting you to "go that extra mile" and use discretion if you are delayed. I won't get in to what you should or shouldn't do on that, as its the individual commanders decision on the day of.

However, food for thought, the return flight is actually the more limiting flight, especially with a 3 man operation. What is very important here, and you must look at, is the layover MUST be longer than 30 hours! If it not, the flight is not legal, as you will be in discretion before ever showing up to the airplane. The same thing happens quite often on the Shanghai 302 pairing when they try to run in 2 man in the summer.

What this means is, if you are the slightest bit late, you must delay pick-up and technically the return flights departure time. This is the reason it operated 4 man in the winter and 3 man in the summer. The flight times don't change, but they get an extra hour of cushion on the layover (in the summer, JFK layover is 31 hours, in the winter, its 30) due to daylight savings time. So, since we all know the flight is going to be delayed out of Dubai with this runway closure, its is very important you keep an eye on your layover length times. This is one the company knows they can't touch, and they will delay the flight outbound. Its happened to me on several occasions from Shanghai and every single time, without question, they delayed the pickup and flight departure.

This is a calculated risk on their part, but hold very firm to that 30 hour layover period. If you are below it, your duty period is not sufficient. If you get ramp checked by the FAA, they will come down on you harshly if you are found to be outside your duty period (no discretion) while sitting on the game. I would suggest that any of the yanks give even more thought to this because they will go after your FAA licenses as well (whether its legal for them to do so is another discussion and not for this thread).

If they are continuously delaying departures due to the rest period, I think it will go back fairly quickly. So before you get mad and go high speed on the way to BOS or JFK and back, just think about what you are actually doing as it may not be your smartest move if you want to see change.

Remember, you can play hard ball and try to pick a fight, and you may or may not get anywhere. However, its much more efficient to follow the rules and use them to your advantage. This is exactly what they do. Know the book, know what it says, and know where to use in your favor!. A delay out of JFK with a late arrival in Dubai WILL get their attention as 90 percent (my guess) of those passengers connect 2 hours later to the subcontinent. If they miss their connections the whole people moving machine starts to break down. My guess is, its also why YYZ operates with 4 crew instead of 3, as it gets in slightly later than the JFK or BOS and they aren't willing to risk that many mis connections due to a delay out of YYZ.

(NOTE: Feel free to take a look at the duty times on the return sector, as I could have miscalculated, but according to my calculations, its more restrictive than the outbound flight.)

[Panther 88]

The devil's in the details. So 747jb, what hours are you using for your rest? Block in or block in plus thirty? One hour before departure, or departure? What I'm saying is "they" might just define one's rest differently, for extenuating circumstances of course

[a747jb]

I used block in in JFK to duty on (1 hour before departure). As far as I know, the 30 mins after block in only applies at home base. Again, I could be wrong and feel free to correct me if I am.

[Rim-job]

The scheduled layover time according to the pairing reports (Ex:#201) is... 31:15. And by using simple math you can see that this is derived from 30 mins after block in (14:45 Local)... to 1 hour prior to departure (22:00 Local).

So essentially, anything longer than a 1:15 delay on the inbound flight will require a subsequent delay on the outbound flight as you will now be less then the required 30 hours of rest. By failing to do so, you will be in violation of the OM-A rest requirement (mandatory 30 hours) which according to the governing body is required to make this pairing legal.

A747jb, Panther 88 or anyone else please feel free to comment and correct any misunderstanding I may have of the fine print. That's how I read it but as always, I could be wrong.

Play by the rules boys and girls... but by all means, use them to your advantage as well. :ok:

[kennedy]

With all the discussion about about FTL's and max hours, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the unofficial report time for duties out of Dubai.

Normally, we are required to proceed to the bus 10 minutes before we officially start our duty, but to help the on time performance and minimize disruption we will be required to proceed to the bus 80 minutes before STD, a full 20 minutes before we officially start our flight duty period, for the period of the runway closure.

Cabin Crew have already received the email, and it is tucked away in the information booklet they sent us the other day.

Unfortunately, we also know that the company cannot adjust the start of duty report time as that would make some pairings illegal for two crew( think Dhaka/male turns and some longer slogs though the night)

Hey Ho! time to go the extra mile,KY not included!

PS just waiting for the notification that the standard pick up will be brought forward to 2:30hrs for the duration!

[harry the cod]

Where or when did that request for the 80 minutes come from? You can't be asked to undertake a duty at the behest of the Company if you're not on duty. If we start now for the runway closure to help 'the wave', do you really think it's likely to go back to how it is? Following a DAY OFF, you are already expected to be briefing cabin crew 23 minutes before official sign on. That's 23 minutes violating YOUR DAY OFF!

Harry

[kennedy]

Page 7 of runway closure facts PDF sent to us the other day.

"Crew must leave Briefing Rooms by STD-80. The LCD will show the time. Staff will be actively managing this so Crew may expect to be asked to leave the room at this time.


The Bus will leave EGHQ by STD-75 (5 minutes earlier than prior to runway closure). Please do not wait for standby crew unless instructed by Crew Operations staff."

So unless the flight deck will be getting a different bus, I guess we will be joining them!

[harry the cod]

Isn't that what we do anyway? If i'm in the middle of our own brief, I'll quite happily get the crew to make their way to the bus and we see them there. If I need to get a different bus to the aircraft, so be it. Have done it twice before when reporting for 0700 departures following a day off.

Complying with an unofficial timeline to assist the Company achieve an on time departure will not be accepted as a mitigating factor when you end up on a closed taxiway or take off on the wrong runway.

GO WHEN YOU'RE READY!

Harry

[The Outlaw]

Harry,

How correct you are. Little emails from management mean as much as a letter to Santa and should carry the same effectiveness...certainly in a court of law. If the company wants any changes of operation during the runway closure, then it must be clearly set out in a FCN or FCI. Otherwise its just junk mail.

[Rather Be Skiing]

I am not sure why the drive to have the crew leave for the aircraft earlier; when was the last time you pushed late due to crew?

[Outatowner]

If they had built the runways properly the first time this wouldn't be happening. But it "costs too much" to do anything properly in this part of the world.
Eg. the collapse of the new concourse, the collapse of the HQ ceiling fittings, collapse of the training centre atrium windows, etc etc etc....

Crew must leave Briefing Rooms by STD-80

I thought that was the "normal" time to leave.

[Instant Hooligan]

Probably best to check with the FDM when to leave the building as the aircraft probably isn't going to be there....

[fatbus]

Very good point .

[MR8]

Gents,

Any normal ULR flight needs to be planned with 4 crew as per the OM-A. The note g. in 7.C.1 is an absolute minimum (to get an aircraft home in case of a sick pilot) for which there are requirements which are stated in 7.C.7

In case you doubt this, there is a similar statement in 8.3.7 (In-flight Fuel management)

In the pre-amble under 8.3.7 is clearly says: The FOB shall be periodically checked in flight to ensure that the amount of usable fuel remaining is not less than the fuel required to proceed to an aerodrome where a safe landing can be made, with final reserve fuel remaining.

Everybody knows that this is a bare minimum for which there are some requirements (8.3.7.2) or when diverting to your alternate.


Fot the ULR plan, this is written in exactly the same style , it's a statement in the general section of an ABSOLUTE minimum for which requirements need to be met, which are explained in detail in the subsections.

So, if they do want us to fly to JFK with only 3 pilots, they have to take away the ULR tag from the flight.

When normal rules apply, the absolute max FDP for a 3 man crew (without discretion) leaving DXB on EK201 is around 15:30 using burn-out of the augmenting guy. With a planned flight time of 13:45, thus a planned FDP of 14:45, this is (unfortunately) absolutely legal.
Planned rest time in NY is 31:15, so unless you arrive more than 1:15 late in JFK, the return sector won't be affected.

Whether this will work is a completely different kind of question which has been answered in the past, but from a legality point of view there doesn't seem to be an issue with our OM-A.

[fatbus]

MR8 is correct, your call weather you go into discretion or not. I like " get a 4 th pilot or the crew bus, your call vpnc "

[Buckshot16]

Imagine .....

Quote:
As a result of delays and unreasonable demands by the Company (see below)
, and following long and serious deliberation by the AFAP/pilot reps, we believe we now have no choice but to notify the Company today of the intention for AFAP members to engage in protected industrial action commencing on Friday 7 February.
Seems so. At this stage limited to the usual "don't work on a day off" first steps industrial action.

[whossorrynow]

Burn Out Policy only applies to specific pairings...

Which specific pairings are these? And where is the data to be found? I have a vague memory of just one specific burnout pairing being mentioned in the book but I can't find it. Maybe it's been a victim of the standard kneejerk editing which could mean there is actually no burnout policy at all for any practical purpose.

[what_goes_up]

Which specific pairings are these? And where is the data to be found? I have a vague memory of just one specific burnout pairing being mentioned in the book but I can't find it. Maybe it's been a victim of the standard kneejerk editing which could mean there is actually no burnout policy at all for any practical purpose.
FCN 2012-001 Harare – Lusake - Dubai

[Modesh]

Gents,

I think the final nail in the coffin of the planed 3 crew ULR is that there must be a published rest plan.

This only affects BOS.

JFK 201 could be done non-ULR 3 crew but the 203 can't due the departure time. Same with IAD.

So one flight to JFK (203) would be a ULR and one six or so hours later wouldn't (201). Makes no sense.

So as for BOS. It is not a ULR by EK definition but it is being operated as one currently. Once a destination has been defined as a ULR it must remain a ULR for the whole year.

So if they want to operate with 3 Crew it has to be under normal FTL's and they must say that BOS is not a ULR and operate it under normal FTL's ALL year.

Now in the winter they could operate it 4 crew under normal FTL's but it would not make any sense as if you have 4 crew you may as well make it a ULR and get the 22 hr OPS FLEX.

So it seems the new guy may have to re-look at it or if they decide its worth operating under normal FTL's then so be it.

At least you won't need to be back from vacation so early etc.

Just to save everybody working it out, here are the FDP's as published by EK...
In MAY
DXB-BOS Duty 14:30 (Max 3 crew 16:15, Max 4 crew 17:23) plus descretion
If your layover is >30 hrs
BOS-DXB Duty 13:10 (Max 3 crew 15:02, Max 4 crew 16:03) plus D if safe.

ATB

M

[harry the cod]

Maximum duty will be 18 hours, 19 for cabin crew when using augmenting pilot to extend normal FTL.

You can't apply the 3 hour discretion rule on this operation as it's already being extended by the extra pilot. The box underneath the limits states what's the maximum duty allowed.

Harry

[Wizofoz]

Rosters are out, and yep! BOS- 3 crew, 2 Captains.

Legal? Arguably.

Smart during runway closure????????

[SOPS]

Just BOS, or other destinations as well?

[General Dogsbody]

Looks Like JFK is 3 Man..

[helen-damnation]

Let's see how many ASRs there are :uhoh:

[bogeydope]

I think it has been brought up before, but how can a captain be qualified to sit in the right seat........???

[SOPS]

I was wondering that, I have not sat in the RHS for at least 15 years.

[scandistralian]

So how does this 3 crew JFK/BOS work with 2 Captains and 1 F/O? And why isn't it 1 Captain and 2 F/O's?

[glofish]

There is no more requirement to be trained on the RHS, CPL and RT licence is accepted by GCAA, as long as you act as PNF.
Now that's interesting when the LHS skipper has to take a leak .... as we are not inflight potty trained as well!

Wait for the FCI stating that the PF can't leave his seat in such configuration.

Next time you attend a manual handling sim, volunteer for assisting a buddy on the RHS and see how well you perform. I had a very hard time finding the correct buttons and was fiddling with wrong fingers, looking into wrong directions etc.

It is not the safest approach to flight safety at all. If US passenger rights lawyers get wind of EK putting tech crew on seats they are not trained for, I would not want to be in a eventual courtroom, even as skipper accepting such assignment, after all we know we are not recent enough there.

Food for thought.

[Mr Good Cat]

But what about all the flights with 1 captain and 2 FOs? Is there a difference here?

I don't remember being trained to operate from the LHS when I was a first officer either.

If they've been getting away with that for years on PER, PVG, KIX etc what is the difference?


Or am I missing something?

[cerbus]

All new hires should have been Left seat trained. TCAS event, De-compression, Rapid descent. It is in the Training Manual but we all know how items disappear when it is convenient for the company.
I can't see how I can sit in the right seat when I never was an FO on the aircraft and was never trained to sit there how that is a legal operation.
Does the FAA know about this? If not they need a phone call.

[myekppa]

Give it a rest, so many companies out there are already operating heavy crews LHS/RHS in the cruise with or without training and with no identified safety events, realised or otherwise.

Is it ideal? No.

For those that wish to launch a legal challenge, the pprune benevolent fund hereby extends all assistance in legal matters to ensure that these rostered duties are terminated forthwith.

Good luck.

[lospilotos]

But what about all the flights with 1 captain and 2 FOs? Is there a difference here?

I don't remember being trained to operate from the LHS when I was a first officer either.

If they've been getting away with that for years on PER, PVG, KIX etc what is the difference?


Or am I missing something?

This was already discussed in this thread a few pages back...

[Modesh]

There must be an FCI coming.

201 3 crew
203 4 crew both have ULR next to the trip description??

Is one a ULR and the other not??? Same destination?? City pair rule?

The 203 can't be done under normal FTL's even 4 crew.
FDP is 14:35 and FDPAugmentedExtra2 is 14:24????

How can the same destination have two flights with one being a ULR and the other not?

Some people have three 203's?? (ULR limit is 2?)

Have they decided JFK and BOS are non-ULR?

JFK is over 14hrs in winter??

I'd be writing a polite email to FLT OPS with a few questions if i was rostered a BOS or JFK in may and there is no FCI in the next few days.

[Big Buddha]

I seem to think that the rest times are different?

[GNL]

Many pages of interesting interpretations.
Why not simply copy the FTL pages to the relevant authorities around the world seeking their acknowledgement that they are aware of the changes and have agreed to them. They are after all the law makers for their countries. On receipt of the reply post it on here. Just a suggestion.:)

[fatbus]

GNL, in theory that has been done , the route / country approval means they have approved the UAE(GCAA) to operate on the route to that country. EK/EY operate under the approval of the GCAA. Of interest the FAA did an audit of the GCAA @ 2 years ago and passed with no outstanding issues, including the FTL's.

[Alconguin Crusader]

But it seems the rules have changed now doesn't it Fatbus?
What was "legal" 2 years ago is not legal today. Of course since we have a Rubber Stamp GCAA it is all legal.