Flight school not returning Logbook! Please HELP!

[blackboxpeal]

Good day folks,

After having issues with my previous flight school, I have now moved to another flight school and have asked for my files to be transferred and my logbook returned back. However, the Flight school is reluctant to give any of them back. I made a request to CASA and after having to wait for 2 months, they came out that they cannot help me to retrieve neither my file nor my logbook. I have around half the amount of hours for a CPL and this means a lot to me. I now do not know what to do or who to ask for help. If i don't obtain at least my logbook, i will be having to do my hours back from the scratch due to no proof. Please Help me anyone with a solution as it is a pity to hear CASA cannot themselves follow their own law as stated in the CAR 5.51

[Black_Knight]

Advise them if they don't return your log book you will have them charged with theft, Go to the school in person to collect them, if they refuse advise the police. its personal property and stored on site to make life easy only (ie you wont forget to bring it) exam passes\fails should be logged with casa so you can get the proof from them.

[Andy_P]

Yup, The log book is yours. You paid for it.

[Ultralights]

i have had a few students with this issue, old schools refuse to hand over the students log book, the logbook is your property, and a legal document, and their refusing to hand it over is theft. remind the school in question politely, that it is your documentation, and legally yours, and not handing it over amounts to theft, in which case, police will be called. they usually hand it over pretty quick.

[tmpffisch]

Name and shame....

[kaz3g]

CRIMES ACT 1958 - SECT 72

Basic definition of theft
(1) A person steals if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.

(2) A person who steals is guilty of theft; and "thief" shall be construed accordingly.

Each of the points of proof must be satisfied in order to obtain a conviction for theft. The most difficult will be "dishonestly" because the logbook was arguably appropriated with your consent.

Try the theft approach and make a statement to police if unsuccessful, but you may have to take a civil case to the Magistrates' or District Court in detinue which is otherwise known as trespass to goods.

Moral...don't leave your property with the School regardless of how helpful they are.

Kaz

[Ultralights]

Name and shame... lets just say, 2 schools in question no longer exists.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Basic definition of theft
(1) A person steals if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.

(2) A person who steals is guilty of theft; and "thief" shall be construed accordingly.

Each of the points of proof must be satisfied in order to obtain a conviction for theft. The most difficult will be "dishonestly" because the logbook was arguably appropriated with your consent.

kaz3g,

The property was not appropriated - it was bailed into the flying school's custody for a specific reason.

It was never in the owner's contemplation that the book would become the property of the flying school, and I am sure there is evidence of payment by the owner to purchase the logbook.

For the flying school to attempt to retain posession of the logbook beyond the licence granted them by the logbook's owner is (if I remember correctly) "Conversion".

[blackboxpeal]

Thank you for your replies guys, i appreciate all your help. I have been to the flight school many times and have requested it more than 50 times. Being an international student, i would be honest that i have been fooled on various occasions when i was physically present at their facility for the request of my logbook. Some of their famous words were, "we are not allowed to give a student's logbook until they finish, and you have not finished your course."
That was their excuse all the time, and i would leave there thinking they were right. However i did some deep research, even found light from CASA telling me that according to the CAR 5.51, i should be in possession. However, today CASA mailed me back with the opposite saying that sorry, they cannot help me further and i have to sort it out myself. I am writing the flight school a letter now and stating the theft policy. just for name and shame, its EDITED BY MOD at jandakot airport. very cheap people to be honest and VERY VERY money minded. be aware.

Will keep you updated.. i just need support. thank you all

[ButFli]

Try the theft approach and make a statement to police if unsuccessful, but you may have to take a civil case to the Magistrates' or District Court in detinue which is otherwise known as trespass to goods.

First year of law school?

[VH-XXX]

ButFli - First year of law school?

FYI ButFli - Kaz is a lawyer :ok: You might want to do some research before you make a food of yourself ;)

[Andy_P]

First year of law school?

If you have something to contribute ButFli, then do so please. I see your comment as pure trolling.

[Tinstaafl]

The school is in breach of a CAR if it refuses to pass on your training records:

CARs 1988:

5.57 Flying schools: transfer of student records

If:

(a) a person has received flying training at a flying school; and

(b) the person subsequently arranges to receive flying training at another flying school;

the first‑mentioned flying school must, on the written or oral request of the person or the other flying school, give a copy of the person’s student record to the other flying school.

[Oktas8]

If I wanted my logbook and the school was open for business, I would go in and get it. It is yours; you are entitled to it. So what if it is in the CFI's office? Walk in (when he is not there) and get it. Just don't take anything else, and don't force open locked doors. A fellow student might be able to help you - fetching it for you, even!

If the school is closed, not in business, it is more difficult. But I would exhaust every opportunity to simply walk in and get the logbook from whichever cupboard it is stored in, before talking to a lawyer. As I said, don't take anything else and don't "break in".

Personally, I never gave my logbook to my school as a student, and I do not keep it at my place of work as an employee. Businesses go bust all the time, and it's unlikely the administrators will let people into the building to take paperwork home.

Here's an anecdote, anyhow. In one memorable case at a former employer - a sausage factory - a student took all his records home (not just logbook), and sued the flying school for failure to fulfill the training contract. The school lost, because it had no records with which to prove that it had in fact done what it promised. The school pursued the student for theft of records, which did actually belong to the school, but again couldn't prove that the student actually took them.

[Square Bear]

5.57 Flying schools: transfer of student records

Interestingly there does not seem to be any penalty provision (unless there is a general penalty provision that I couldn't find) for failing to comply with 5.57.

If it was me, I would ask your new CFI to make a written request to the previous school for the log book and records to be transferred.

If that fails, I would be following kaz3g's advice, although the Police would in all likelihood suggest that it is a Civil matter. (However you never know your luck, one may understand your dilemma and make a call on your behalf).

That then leaves the Magistrates Court. The Clerk of Courts would probably provide advice of what Civil action may be available.

Good luck.

[blackboxpeal]

My new flight school's CFI made a request to the previous flight school Current CFI with a signed letter to ask for the training record and logbook transfer explaining that we will take care of the courier service, but he seems to avoid any replies.

[Horatio Leafblower]

I assume you have paid all outstanding monies to your previous school.

A call to CASA will often elicit the response you seek.

[mr flappy]

Walk in there and take it, if it's in a place prohibited to the public, just walk in and grab it, there is nothing they can do to stop you, if they try to physically restrain you, that is assault and that person then could face criminal proceedings. You will have done nothing wrong as it is your log book. Take some big scary goon looking friends with you if you can.

[LewC]

Yep,what Mr.Flappy said particularly the bit about taking a couple of large ,scary looking mates with you,just make sure they understand they're only there for appearances and in the event of someone trying to stop you recovering your property your friends are to keep their hands to themselves and act only as witnesses.

[GADRIVR]

Devils advocate here...do you owe them money Blackboxpeal by any chance?

[chance]

As GADRIVR has noted, most flying schools will withhold documentation such as log books, but more importantly student progress sheets until all outstanding monies are owed. Its a bit like a mechanic not giving you the keys to your car until you have paid for the service. If there is a dispute between you and the school concerning monies owed you should get that sorted by negotiation or through ACAT. Once that is finalised the school would have no grounds to withhold your documents. Flying school skipping is very common when students either feel they are not getting a fair deal, are being overtrained and ripped off or as in some case just aren't cutting the mustard. Not sure what applies to you. Consumers have rights but so do merchants.

[Caedus]

Wow... I almost did my training at (EDITED BY MOD)... Glad I went to (EDITED BY MOD then!

You should get your new school's instructor/CFI to help... I'm sure they can call them or something, or if the new school is in the strip, just walk down there and demand they hand it over.

There's no reason for them to hold on to it. Excuses like "You haven't finished your training" doesn't fly :ugh:

[blackboxpeal]

I do not owe them money, but they have been sending me statements about navs I have not done, urging me to pay. On many occasions I have spot navs doubling on my statement and even explained that it is not true because I dont have the hours on my logbook. So just for fact, which company on earth will let u accumulate a debt of over 10k with them, despite having an accountant sitting there 5 days a week. Sounds dodgy right. But what I have learnt from a friend who left from there (because of their ways of stealing every penny you got) is that they know they dont have those hours on my logbook. But they thought I was foolish enough to pay them to get my logbook and them earning cheaply. But I didnt and now thats where I stand after CASA denied a helping hand.

[kaz3g]

If there was an offer and an acceptance, and if there was consideration given...I don't know the details of the arrangement...then yes there was a bailment but almost certainly for an indefinite period. The owner of the logbook gave notice he wanted it returned and any bailment that previously existed was therefore terminated at the time the notice was given.

For conversion to be made out, the flying school would have to deal in the logbook for its own benefit without authority from what I remember from first year law school. If they deal in it, then they have appropriated the rights of the owner but proving this was dishonestly done is difficult and turns very much on the particular facts.

If they haven't dealt with the logbook, then trespass to goods seems a better way to go because it is simply an action for the return of goods withheld from the true owner.

But this is a civil action that has to be taken by the owner of the logbook. Anyone contemplating a civil action has to take into account the potential costs associated with losing it. Even if the owner self-represents they could still be up for an adverse award of costs in that event. They would need to look very carefully at any and all contracts entered into with the flying school to ensure there was no other contractual arrangement governing rights wrt the logbook.

40 years ago when I started lessons my instructor filled out my logbook in meticulous fashion entering the section numbers for each of the skills completed. But I kept it at home and still have it. No arguments then and instruction professionally given by a reputable and honest organisation.

All of the foregoing is a discussion without retainer and is purely my opinion about a scenario the details of which I have only scant knowledge. It does not constitute legal advice and should not be construed as such. If you need legal advice you should instruct a solicitor privately.

Kaz

[Mach E Avelli]

Kaz, undoubtedly your legal advice to instruct a solicitor privately is the safest way to proceed in law.
But if our penniless student were to follow Mr Flappy's advice and merely rock up with a couple of heavies and demand the logbook, provided said heavies did not actually belt anyone or trash the place, would this not be cheaper and more effective?
It is wrong that he has to pay a lawyer, probably with little hope of being awarded costs. No doubt the flying school is counting on that. Or could he get substantial costs, in which case, way to go?
Yes, intimidation may be illegal, but it doesn't seem as if this low life operation would want to bring any more adverse publicity on themselves by doing anything other than hand over the goods.

[Runaway Gun]

Heavies? Just rock up with another instructor/CFI who demands to see his new student's log book, so that he can continue to instruct him.

Make sure said instructor is a 55kg blonde or a 120kg bruiser.

[Guilders]

For the record, a flying school CAN NOT withhold your logbook even if money is outstanding. This is private property and it is the pilot's own property once an entry is made. The records are another matter....they are required to be retained for 7 years (30 if the organisation is an RTO) however, the student has a right to copies of everything in that training record.
If another flying school asks for records and logbooks, they must be handed over and CASA can and will become involved if this request is not met.
Cautionary Note: Everything you do from hereonin should be in writing and email will suffice!

[Mach E Avelli]

Even if CASA could intervene, they don't appear to be interested in this case.
Just another thought - for not a very great investment, the aggrieved student could perhaps join the AFAP and sool their legal people on to the recalcitrant school.
Whatever criticism one may have of the AFAP, they are quite good at representing their members when there is a case to answer. Small companies relish a visit from the Feds like a dose of the clap because inevitably it costs time and money to see them off, and spoils the CEO's love life for at least a little while.

[kaz3g]

Hello Mach E Avelli

I understand the sentiments in your post and the financial limitations of our frustrated CPL candidate but I have to counsel caution since even one "heavy" might cause more problems than already exist. Especially if there are witnesses!

An assault occurs by the application of force or by the fear of such force. It won't do anyone's employment prospects much good if they incur a conviction for a criminal offence.

I don't see any issue with the owner of the logbook going and collecting it from the flying school provided, as someone said in a previous post, he does so peacefully and without forcing entry to where it is stored.

If the flying school's staff physically resist him in such a scenario, a charge of assault may lie against them instead. If they tell him to leave before he has regained his property, however, he must do so or risk a complaint of trespass.

The logbook owner might also have a discussion with the government department administering consumer affairs in his State or Territory because the Australian Consumer Law prohibits unconscionable conduct in trade and commerce, specifically in consumer and business transactions. It also prohibits unfair terms in contracts.

Very substantial civil pecuniary penalties apply to the unconscionable conduct provisions as well as remedies such as injunctions.

Kaz

[Anthill]

Another alternative would be to say "¥€%# ' em" and create another log book. Use the receipts issued from the flying school as the basis for your entries as these will have date/flight time and aircraft rego on them.

[Centaurus]

Some years back a young lady arrived at the flying school where I worked and said she wished to continue her flying training there. Her log book showed over fifty hours of dual instruction on a Cessna 150 at her previous flying school in country Victoria with over 40 hours on circuits with the majority with one grade 3 instructor. At no stage was the CFI flying with her. She had no solo time yet had flown quite regularly

Before taking her on we contacted the CFI of her flying school and requested her progress reports since her dual time was excessive. He refused to comply, despite several requests. He was well known in the industry for his arrogance.

The CFI where I worked asked CASA to do something. Eventually we received from said country flying school a faxed copy of the total hours the lady had flown and nothing else. These weren't progress reports as we understood them - simply figures which we already had seen in her log book. We protested to CASA and nothing happened. So it seemed that we received just what we asked for -- her training records. We suspected a sham but we never got her progress reports.

[Humbly Reserved]

Ok, so the former school refuses to hand over records on the basis of that they still have money owed to them (or so they say)

Sadly this is a standard practice in the industry. At an old school I used to work at we had several students of local and international background finish their final tests (GFPT, PPL, CPL, MECIR etc..) then leave town owing us thousands in debt. Did we ever see that money again, no!

Ever since then, our school refused to submit test paperwork and the like until all debts had been cleared.

All I can suggest is you march down there, speak to the CEO/CFI or even the chief pilot and clear up any discrepancies you have with your previous account and you might you'll have an easier time acquiring your documentation if you speak to them directly.

[Clare Prop]

Unfortunately a lot of progress records are a tick and flick exercise and a waste of paper, if they are filled in at all.

I have recently had the same issue with the school you mentioned (before it's name was edited) and in the end just had to go and ask for the cover page of the file with the hours flown and exams passed so at least I could cross check the hours (the student had already managed to extract his log book by pure persistance but there were no exam results entered in his logbook and it had never had the monthly stamp) and I was given a photocopy of it straight away. I'd phoned ahead to say I would be there in half an hour to pick it up and kinda made it clear I wasn't leaving without it. The rest of the file arrived a few weeks later, luckily this chap wasn't doing an integrated course.

If all else has failed your current CFI could send them a solicitor's letter asking for the file without further delay. In my experience that will usually do the trick. The law is on your side but it is the new CFI's job to get the file. There is a reason why there is a chain of custody of these documents. Good luck.

[andrewr]

Ever since then, our school refused to submit test paperwork and the like until all debts had been cleared.

Be careful with that:

CAR 5.42 Flight tests: CASA to be notified

(3)An approved testing officer must:
(c) send the flight test report form to CASA: (i) if the test is passed—within 14 days after the day of the test; or
(ii) if the test is failed—within 90 days after the day of the test.

(3C) An offence against subregulation (2), (3) or (3B) is an offence of strict liability.

There might actually be more justification for a student to withhold payment until all legal requirements for training records etc. are met than there is for a school to withhold a logbook which the student is required by law to keep - especially if the student is paying for a "course" rather than flight by flight.

Non-payment is a commercial problem all businesses face - usually, without keeping property as security.

Possession might be 9/10 of the law, but that other 1/10 can be problematic...

[yr right]

Go to the police and fill out a report, it is stealing. The only way they may retain goods if they have a court order. I had an org tried to hold my tool box after I left them, police said it attempt to seal if they wont let me in the following day they charge them with that.
Go in tomorrow ask for it, if they wont give it back straight to cop shop. That way it will not cost you anything, second thing is go to your local member and have him send a letter to the aviation minster, then sit back and watch the action

[Mach E Avelli]

He says he is an international student, so he won't have any pull with the local politicians. But if neither CASA nor the local cops want to become involved in what appears to be a minor (but important, to him) property dispute, maybe he should make some noise with the local media about how, yet again, foreign students are being jerked around by ratbag Aussie schools.
Overcharging and under delivering, witholding legally required documents as per the CARs etc.
Call the school and deliver this ultimatum: hand over the logbook today or be prepared for some free publicity tomorrow. Because it has 'aviation' in it, one of the TV channels is bound to be interested in running it on a 'name and shame' evening program. All the better if he plays on the foreign bit, and how he chose Australia for his training because he believed it would be the best available, blah blah, only to be so sadly disappointed in the lack of ethics, blah blah.
Provided he only speaks the truth, he can't be held for defamation - at least that is my understanding.

[hillbillybob]

Truth isn't an absolute defence for defamation but is a good start. From memory there is a public interest test as well

[Clare Prop]

Great idea, let's give all flying schools a bad reputation.:mad:

look what happened with that Four Corners show a few years back.

There are some of us who make our living out of this industry, are not involved in this particular episode but will be tarred with the same brush.

Follow due process is my advice, I've already posted how. The CFI from your new school has to gain possession of the file. You should be able to rebuild your logbook from that if needs be.

If you go to the media there could be a sh!tstorm for all of us. :ugh::ugh: The meeja care nothing for the truth, are only interested in ratings and/or selling advertising space, feeding confirmation bias and that means a nice bit of conflict, a weeping mother, an overseas student making thinly veiled racist remarks about greedy capitalist white people yada yada yada

[Mach E Avelli]

Good point Clare Prop, I would not want to see the whole industry tarred with the same brush. Though there is more than one dodgy school ripping off students, and not only foreign students.
But I reckon the school concerned will roll over as soon as the threat is made. They would be stupid not to realise the implications.

[Clare Prop]

Please, no threats, just follow due process!

[poonpossum]

What's up with moderators censoring flying school names? So much for supporting the industry that supports them.

You all complain about the race to the bottom yet exonerate these establishments that accelerate it.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

I don't see anyone getting exonerated.

I do see that the school in question would be within its rights to sue pprune if that sort of thing was left up there.

Mods are volunteers, the industry doesn't "support" them.

[redelect]

I did some training at ypjt ,not sure what school you were with but when I left to do other things (raa) I walked in just as I always would and just picked up my logbook,I sure was feeling like they didn't want me taking it and was questioned on why etc,if it's the same one and the books are in the shelf around the corner just walk in and grab it ,I did,you would know exactly where it is ,and will only take a few seconds

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Plenty of advice there to be getting on with. Goodnight.