EK logging of bunk time to change

[Beatsaregularjob]

Hi all,

Heard a rumour that currently EK drivers don't log time in the bunk but that rule is about to change? Any truth to this? If so what are the implications of this? Start accrediting overtime pay or hire more pilots?

[Payscale]

You must have heard wrong. Only the commander of the flight can log all the time. The first officer cannot log bunk time towards his upgrade. Sort of makes sense to me.

[thehonourablefong]

Hasn't this rumour been going round since 1985?!

[Kapitanleutnant]

This one might have some legs due to the new EASA rules to come into effect later this year from what I hear….

K

[new tomcat]

Why doesn't Emirates just do the right thing instead of running an illegal operation? They are above the law.

[Wizofoz]

Which countries laws are they breaking Tom?

You realize you would be breaking European law with your operation if it applied to you?

[Avid Aviator]

True, this change will come in at some stage and will require some additional pilots (source: one of the Training Managers I spoke to recently).

However, it won't change the hours you log in your logbook (yes, EK pilots log hours in the bunk, like most long haul airlines). The difference is Emirates doesn't count bunk hours for the augmenting (cruise) Capt and F/O towards flight & duty limits. That's it. They do for flight experience records.

So it won't affect your hours for upgrade, or for another job, or your pay (yes you get paid for all bunk hours too). If you're not sure, have a look at your flying records on the portal and see how many hours you have according to the company.

More pilots will be required as the 900/year limit will be broken by some ULR regulars (but that could well go to 1000/year with the change, I hear), plus a few rostering complications, but not so big a deal really.

[new tomcat]

How about the 900 hour a year limit Wiz?
What other airline flies over the limit?

[Wizofoz]

And the way that 900hrs is calculated is laid out in our Regulator Approved manual, and is adhered to.

I'm not saying I like it, it sucks and will hopefully be changed, but it is legal by the laws EK is subject to.

I have no idea if other UAE airlines do the same (Well, the unmentionable would be the only other one with Augmented ops), but if they presented their OMA to the GCAA with the same clause, and the GCAA approved it, their operation would be legal.

What you don't understand (well, one of the MYRIAD of things you don't understand) is that here- as in the WHOLE OF EUROPE- FTLs are a matter of individual operators having FTL schemes included in their manuals, and those manuals being approved.

As to other airlines going over 900hrs?

Well, lets start with all the Australian Airlines who are approved to go to 1000hrs, all the European ones who do likewise (and, it seems, EASA is about to make that universal) or......

All the US operators who are able to legally do 1200hrs under the FARs, on far shorter rest periods than are mandatory here (even AFTER your recent change).

Guess they're all operating illegally, huh?

[new tomcat]

First of all the FAA limits airlines to 1000 hours.
In addition to that no airline get close to the limit. After all you don't run your car at Red Line why would an airline run it's pilots at Red Line unless they are inviting disaster.
You are right I don't understand why or how pilots allow the things that happen to them to carry on. I know in the sand you have no rights and have the contract to prove it but Europe? They have strong unions, stronger even then in the US.

[The Turtle]

any one hear the cvr from the ups crash in BHM? is it true the cvr caught both pilot's yawning and the CA said in a earlier sector "this trip will kill me...?"


I haven't heard it myself.....

[Wizofoz]

Tom, Guess you've never heard of Ryanair then.

Turtle- Ah! But that's freight! freight pilots, like regional pilots and..well...anyone who isn't Tom doesn't count, you see.....

[helen-damnation]

And the way that 900hrs is calculated is laid out in our Regulator Approved manual, and is adhered to.

Which is in total contravention of the UAE CARs (available online).

[Wizofoz]

Actually, since the recent amendment and insertion of the word "Block" as a definition of hours, you are probably right- but it is now in the hands of the regulator to require amendment of the OMA- this is what the OP was saying and was probably right- it was just Tom that was wrong- but he makes a habit of that.

[helen-damnation]

To be honest I'm not sure how much difference the "block" makes.

The definition of flight time, IIRC, is brake off to brake on (or chocks). The CARs never made any allowance for factoring other than for time claimed to obtain an ATPL as mentioned above.

The UK CAA were approached by a UK company about it but European law prevented it. They weren't happy about it in any case.

The local story was allegedly that Etihad applied for factoring but were turned down, EK having grandfather rights but supposedly time (un)limited!

[spanishfly69]

New Tomcat, please speak for yourself and may be for the Airline you work for.
I flew in the old USA for 15 years and I blocked more than 900 hrs almost every year.

[Wizofoz]

h-d,

Yes, but there is a separate definition in the CARS -"Flight deck duty time" which specifies time in an operating position.

On THAT definition, they would be entitled to count NO bunk time- so at to moment we have sort of an amalgam.

BUT, Block hours are defined as chocks off to chocks on, so I can't see any way around them having to change- but I'm sure they'll try for later rater than sooner!!

[jacjetlag]

"BUT, Block hours are defined as chocks off to chocks on, so I can't see any way around them having to change- but I'm sure they'll try for later rater than sooner!"

+++++++++++++++++++++++


Omniscient Wiz....it depends on what part of the world you happen to be in and whom you work for. ACARS brake release is used by many, DGS docking systems that measure actual A/C movement by others. Wheel chocks? Not so much anymore.

BTW, TCat is correct. In the USA, 1,000 hrs "block" time is the max, not 1,200.

[Wizofoz]

"Chocks on/off" is nomenclature for starting-stopping motion, NOT the actual placing or removing of chocks. Do you still log "Stick time"? When was the last time you were behind an actual stick??

BTW, TCat is correct. In the USA, 1,000 hrs "block" time is the max, not 1,200.

Pax major airline? sure.

How about freight, commuter or part 121 charter?

In OTHER parts of the world, fatigue is considered a bad thing no matter what you fly.

[new tomcat]

So the way Emirates works it's pilots fatigue is not a concern or problem?
Freight and cummuter pilots work 1000 hours max in the US. This is a FAA rule and as I said before no pilot flies close to that number.

[fatbus]

topcat, what do you propose EK do?

[Wizofoz]

Freight and cummuter pilots work 1000 hours max in the US.

Really Tom?
§ 135.265 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: Scheduled
operations.
(a) No certificate holder may schedule any flight crewmember, and no flight
crewmember may accept an assignment, for flight time in scheduled operations or in
other commercial flying if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying
will exceed—
(1) 1,200 hours in any calendar year.


this is a FAA rule and as I said before no pilot flies close to that number.

Sure about that Tom??

A portrait of these hourly pay scales becomes even more pathetic when you consider that regional airline pilots, who are paid only from the time the airline leaves the gate to the time it arrives at the destination, only are on the clock on average about 21.5 hours per week.

http://skift.com/2013/08/28/the-u-s-airline-pilots-who-barely-make-minimum-wage/

21.5 x 52=..... Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

[Wizofoz]

And for Toms mate JetJac, from that document-

NOTE: Flight time as here defined is synonymous with the term “block to block” time or “chock to chock” time in general usage which is measured from the time an aeroplane first moves for

Still, it seems pretty definitive- but there will still be a process before it gets incorporated- sooner the better obviously.

[Likeitis]

Try again wiz. Part 135 is nearly all on demand charter and the companies that do a pseudo part 121 scheduled airline ops under 135 rules follow 121 rules for pilot rest requirements. I know many 135 pilots and I know of exactly 0 who have ever flown over 1000 hours. Most average around 500 with a good contingent under 250. I flew 135 for years and never broke 700 hours.

[Wizofoz]

Then why do the regs allow 1200hrs under part 135?

If 1000 hrs is all that's safe, why isn't it the rule across the board?

[Likeitis]

Why is it illegal in Mississippi to house a horse within 50 feet of a road? Just because it's law doesn't mean it's enforced or followed. I'm not saying back in the days of check hauling that guys didn't break 1000 hour mark but outside of maybe some guys doing banner towing, virtually no one is breaking part 121 limits. You show me some on demand charter company who has figured out how to schedule on demand charter pilots so efficiently that they fly over part 121 limits I will eat my words. Even my Netjet friends are lucky to break 600/year.

[Wizofoz]

Your probably right, Likeitis, but the point was simply that while Tom decries how EK interpret the GCAA laws, ALL US FTL schemes, even now that they have been tightened up somewhat, are still less restrictive.

There's a lot more to FTL than just total annual hours, and what commuter pilots used and still can be rosetted to do, particularly in terms of duty days and rest periods,would be downright illegal here and in Europe.

[new tomcat]

Again wiz no commuter, freight pilot or major pilot flies over 1000 hour a year. You have dug up some obscure Reg that no one is regulated under.
I will put the US regs up against any country then include all the other work rules negotiated and it is not even close with what you are defending wiz.

[Wizofoz]

Colgan Tom, Colgan.

All legal and hunky dory under your system to have two underpaid pilots travel across the country and fly dead tired ( and one sick) cause they couldn't afford to live at their base.

Or Comair 5191?

Guys flying after only 8 hrs rest after a long day take off on the wrong runway and kill a bunch of people?

Why has their been a congress mandated change to your rules if they were all so safe Tom?

[fatbus]

Tom, get over yourself mate. Not everyone wants to fly in the US.

[birdieonfirst]

Some people just don't seem to understand how they are portraying themselves when slinging mud on others.

Tomcat, I feel sorry for you mate!

:ok:BOF

[fliion]

Roughly half of US daily commercial departures are conducted by branded regional affiliates operating under scope agreements voted on by US major pilots.

These pilots are paid nothing and are treated terribly..BUT Tom gloats because they operate under FAA FTLs they are the envy of EK pilots...

...the only envy is Toms - having failed a DEC assessment that his two buddies passed a number of years ago.

Tom uses a very pure and hallowed word for airline pilots at the drop of a hat: scab.

No one at EK crossed an EK picket line. There is no union : Ipso facto....there can be no scab.

The lowest paid regional EK FO (FlyDubai - no disrespect guys) gets paid about $100,000 pa tax free. (Possibly more)... Roughly five times in the US.

America is great...but your argument is baseless...as was your application.

f.

[Trader]

WOW-- the idiocy that prevails astounds me some days.

Hours are not hours--that's to say that 1000/1200 (whatever) hours of day flying within 2 time zones is different than the same flying across multiple time zones and at night.

My last year at 'home' (not American) I flew just over 1000 hours but all of it daytime. No problem. 900 hours at EK, over a third at 'night' and over multiple times zones is exhausting.

Different rules, different results. UAE's rules on the face of it, are more limiting but the end result is drastically different.

The American limit flight time to to 8 hours in one day. Seems logical till you allow 'spilt duties' or insufficient rest periods. The Europeans take a different tack and are fighting it out still.

In the end the issue that is relevant to EVERY country is that the science does not matter! The regulators try and the airlines (the MONEY) fight back. The US pilots and the European pilots have been trying to engage so that FTL's use science and, hell, COMMON SENSE, and are making small strides.

IN the end I hope the Europeans and Americans get together, draft LOGICAL FTL's based on science and then regulate ANY airline flying into their airspace to those standards. This way airlines could not leverage their crews as a 'cost saver' to undercut the competition.

[TightSlot]

Friendly Heads Up for everybody - the use of the word "Scab" will never be permitted and may result in sanctions against the user so doing.

Thank you.

[new tomcat]

Why can't we use the word scab?
Scabs are one of biggest detriment to getting our industry bake to where it use to be. If we don't have pilots coming in and agreeing to work for less than Industry Standard wages we would all be better off as pilots.
I agree that scabs should not be in our industry but by banning the word or the discussion about them does nothing to further out careers. Scabs should be identified and banned, not the term.

[spanishfly69]

New Tomcat,
First, what is the real meaning of Scab. "Scab, a strikebreaker, a person who works despite strike action or against the will of other employees". Therefore; It is not about using the word or not, it is about using it properly. But even if you use it properly, it does not mean anything anymore. What happened to all the Eastern and Continental scabs? I can tell you. ALPA took them back.. So, what does it tell you? It tells you that is all about money and being selfish. For example, I am against Ryanair hiring practices, where people have to pay for training. Now look at your own backyard: Is Southwest any better, when they require EVERY NEW HIRE (except the Airtran pilots now) to get their 737 type. I am sure you will find a way to justify Southwest and their 5000 pilots that bought their 737 type rating.

[fatbus]

I recieved a PM from Mr Tomcat , needless to say I recommend you put him on your ignore list , I have.

[fliion]

Fatbus

Lol...I also received a colorful pvt msg from kitty cat...pathetic and quite frankly an admission of defeat from an intellect incapable of articulating in the forum...so he goes to pvt msg insults.

Thanks for the white flag Tom


f

[Wizofoz]

I had a long PM message exchange with Newpussycat a few years ago- after he realised he couldn't win me over that way, he just started slating me on PPRUNE at every opportunity.

O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!

[misd-agin]

Union guy says we have 60-200 guys per year bumping up against the 1000 hr limit.


800 hrs isn't that uncommon.