767 Hard Landing at BHX

[Andy_P]

I spotted this vid which piqued my interest. I am currently learning crosswind landings, so I have been studying this vid closely to try and understand what happened. Vid here: landing gear banged to its limits - YouTube

I think I tracked another vid of the same aircraft landing, and the suggestion is there was 4 go arounds, and the wind had picked up to 45 knots. Not sure if this is true though. Those details were found here. http://skybrex.********.com.au/2013/12/767-rough-crosswind-landing.html

Could some elaborate as to what went wrong here, in as much detail as possible. Obviously given the conditions, I figure the pilot did pretty good. It did not look like a friendly place to be landing a plane at that point.

[thing]

Normally in a crab approach like that you would use the rudder to line up with the centreline just before touchdown and put some into wind aileron in. He did put the into wind aileron in landing right wheel first which is correct but didn't seem to line up.

There are two schools of thought for these approaches, both have their vociferous champions. There's the crab approach as seen in the vid and the wing down approach which is like a side slip to land, although it's not as severe as a side slip. The wing down approach has you tracking the centreline with rudder and holding off any drift with the aileron which proponents would say (correctly) gives you the correct side wing down on touchdown and the correct sense of rudder to keep straight on the centreline on touchdown. The other advantage is that you know if you're going to run out of control authority because if you can't track the runway then you're not going to have enough rudder to stay straight once landed.

Having said all that :) I've no idea what his company policy is for xwind landings, and some a/c are designed to take large side loads like that. I would say the bounce was a result of the firm touchdown and carrying a few extra knots for the wife and kids in case of wind shear.

I might add that I'm not a big jet pilot, I just fly small stuff but it's a popular topic of discussion amongst the 'crabbers' and the 'slippers' and bear in mind that even a crab landing turns into a slip (or should do if you do it right!) landing at the last moment. I'm a 'crabber' mainly because it's what I've done over the last 25 years so have developed the timing to do it correctly. However a pal of mine who flies heavy metal is a confirmed 'slipper'.

Edit: if you watch the landing from 0.40 seconds you will see a very nice demo of a correctly executed crab. The other thing I might add is if you're just learning xwind landings then listen to what your instructor tells you and don't try and learn from a flying forum; not saying that you are by the way. Absolutely nothing wrong with picking up points from a forum and raising them with your instructor though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMvLuUJFHYk

[Andy_P]

Yeah, wasn't trying to learn technique from it, more so just trying to understand what went wrong from a theoretical perspective.

I guess i was watching it, and I noticed when he touched down that there was a noticeable right rudder deflection, whereas I fully expected to see mostly all left rudder to attempt to straighten the aircraft on the runway. BUT, maybe that does not work in a 767? How much rudder authority do you get in a 767?

Just questions, was kinda hoping a commercial jet pilot might pop in and provide some insight.

[aviate1138]

No burst tyres and everyone walked away........... Not every landing can be a greaser, especially with the weather at the time.

As SLF at JFK on an Air India 747 flight we arrived and many tyres burst and there wasn't even a crosswind.........

My excuse to return to LHR on Concorde! :)

[JanetFlight]

...or this :

Jw-aUVa3a0U

Sometimes it may happen :rolleyes:

[scotbill]

This is the greatest argument for the controlled slip v crab-to-the-last-moment.

If the latter is misjudged the aircraft can be left drifting sideways above the runway and the usual reaction is to stuff the nose down to get the beast on the ground, You may get away with that on a little aeroplane but on a big machine you are likely to do serious damage in a nosewheel first landing.

The most common error in controlled slip is not to understand that when you set a bit of aileron into wind (with opposite rudder) - this is a new datum position which should be maintained with minor adjustments to cope with varying conditions. See-sawing of ailerons must be avoided at all costs.

Disclaimer - have not flown Airbus but believe their sidestick might require a slightly different technique.

[EPRman]

Not true cumbrianboy. The sideslip (wing low) method is an acceptable method of landing the 757/767 in a crosswind although care should be taken to avoid over controlling in roll to avoid the engine or outboard flap contacting the runway. This method isn't recommended with crosswind components greater than 28 kts for the 757 and 26 kts for the 767. Other acceptable methods are de-crab during the flare and touchdown in crab. Interestingly the aircraft can be landed in crab only up to the crosswind limit (40 kts in our case).

Regards.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

In fact it's an acceptable method for landing most airliners.

De crabbing in the flare should result in the upwind wheel landing first too.

[Sleeping]

What went wrong? - Not much, it was windy!

commercial airlines never use the wing down approach for a cross wind landing,

Total rubbish.

[wiggy]

commercial airlines never use the wing down approach for a cross wind landing, it's too risky especially with underslung engines.


Add another := to the list....

It is perfectly acceptable on most types (I'll add the 777 to the list where it can be used) but was very very much discouraged on some of the the 4 engined beasts such as the 747 due to the risk of whacking an outboard engine in the flare.

[scotbill]

The move against controlled slip was particularly vociferous with the Viscount - allegedly because of the risk of touching a prop. This was only likely if the aircraft was not flared.
"Wing down" is a bit of a misnomer as the opposite rudder reduces the bank angle to 2 or 3 degrees. The beauty of the system is that it allows a controlled normal flare without sudden inputs at the last moment.

Cumbrian boy - the B767/57 autopilot produces a very polished controlled slip Xwind landing which every commercial pilot should try to emulate.

[PAXboy]

aviate1138
My excuse to return to LHR on Concorde!"Surely, there must be some mishtake?" No excuse was ever needed to travel on Concorde - just the money ...
:p

[Doors to Automatic]

Just a theory but at around 0:27 a substantial sudden sink rate developed. I would guess that this contributed to the heavy landing, even though it was arrested.

[Airbubba]

commercial airlines never use the wing down approach for a cross wind landing, it's too risky especially with underslung engines.

Something tells me that you don't fly commercial airliners for a living. :=

[Onceapilot]

Good to see some nice handling!:ok:

OAP

[Andy_P]

Just a theory but at around 0:27 a substantial sudden sink rate developed. I would guess that this contributed to the heavy landing, even though it was arrested.

Yup I noticed this too. One of my flight instructors is truly evil. He likes to take me up in less than ideal conditions. His concept is great, and it really ordinary weather for a student its good to get us used to handling adverse conditions. He has a rule, and that is only a few circuits then come back down. Idea is not to scare us too much, but just to push us a little bit knowing that one day we may get caught short.... His point, as a PPL in those conditions we would probably never fly anyway. Its a different story for commercial guys though.

But, I digress. One day, we were doing a simulated engine failure in such conditions (tame by commercial standards, maybe gusting 15-20 knots), on a glide approach. I had it all sorted. At about 500feet, we got a massive downdraft. I did not see the VSI, but the instructor reckons it was the most he had ever seen. Needless to say, had it been a real engine failure it would have been all over!

As a person that has a fear of flying, I dont think a commercial flight will ever scare me again!

[Basil]

scotbill,
The move against controlled slip was particularly vociferous with the Viscount - allegedly because of the risk of touching a prop. This was only likely if the aircraft was not flared.
I was never bold enough to try wing down at all on the GLA VC8 (well, not intentionally :O).
Ex Argosy where it didn't matter then on to L1011 where it was de rigueur :)

[gcal]

A north/south undulating and uphill (from that end) runway so I'd say they did a damned good job.
Wouldn't have wanted to be in the back row as a punter though. I'd certainly have got my moneys worth ;)

[misd-agin]

Ham fisted. Look at the rudder inputs just prior to touchdown - left rudder, neutral, left rudder, neutral, left rudder, neutral, left rudder. In seven seconds.

[llondel]

How many landings did he get charged for? :}

[10 DME ARC]

In the 33 years I have been paid to watch landing and take off I have seen a lot worse!! Did well in the conditions it is a B767 getting tossed around out there!!

[stilton]

That really was not all that great. Very hard touchdown, although the 767's unforgiving landing gear design made it a lot worse than it should have been.



Tough conditions but that pilot was making it worse with significant PIO.
Wonder if those huge winglets are a help or hindrance in those winds.

[Hotel Tango]

All you armchair pilots truly amuse me. You really think so highly of yourselves don't you! :mad:

[PPL Hobbyist]

How not to do it...

MD-80 Crash - YouTube

[awblain]

An even more impressive DC9 cracking happened with passengers in Granada.
I know someone who ended up unexpectedly sitting in his seat on the grass.

ASN Aircraft accident McDonnell Douglas DC-9-32 EC-BYH Granada Airport (GRX) (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19920330-1)

On This Day in Aviation History: March 30th at NYCAviation (http://www.nycaviation.com/2010/03/on-this-day-in-aviation-history-march-30th/#.UwaDgf1Ex90)