767 Hard Landing at BHX
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767 Hard Landing at BHX
I spotted this vid which piqued my interest. I am currently learning crosswind landings, so I have been studying this vid closely to try and understand what happened. Vid here:
I think I tracked another vid of the same aircraft landing, and the suggestion is there was 4 go arounds, and the wind had picked up to 45 knots. Not sure if this is true though. Those details were found here. http://skybrex.********.com.au/2013/...d-landing.html
Could some elaborate as to what went wrong here, in as much detail as possible. Obviously given the conditions, I figure the pilot did pretty good. It did not look like a friendly place to be landing a plane at that point.
I think I tracked another vid of the same aircraft landing, and the suggestion is there was 4 go arounds, and the wind had picked up to 45 knots. Not sure if this is true though. Those details were found here. http://skybrex.********.com.au/2013/...d-landing.html
Could some elaborate as to what went wrong here, in as much detail as possible. Obviously given the conditions, I figure the pilot did pretty good. It did not look like a friendly place to be landing a plane at that point.
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Normally in a crab approach like that you would use the rudder to line up with the centreline just before touchdown and put some into wind aileron in. He did put the into wind aileron in landing right wheel first which is correct but didn't seem to line up.
There are two schools of thought for these approaches, both have their vociferous champions. There's the crab approach as seen in the vid and the wing down approach which is like a side slip to land, although it's not as severe as a side slip. The wing down approach has you tracking the centreline with rudder and holding off any drift with the aileron which proponents would say (correctly) gives you the correct side wing down on touchdown and the correct sense of rudder to keep straight on the centreline on touchdown. The other advantage is that you know if you're going to run out of control authority because if you can't track the runway then you're not going to have enough rudder to stay straight once landed.
Having said all that
I've no idea what his company policy is for xwind landings, and some a/c are designed to take large side loads like that. I would say the bounce was a result of the firm touchdown and carrying a few extra knots for the wife and kids in case of wind shear.
I might add that I'm not a big jet pilot, I just fly small stuff but it's a popular topic of discussion amongst the 'crabbers' and the 'slippers' and bear in mind that even a crab landing turns into a slip (or should do if you do it right!) landing at the last moment. I'm a 'crabber' mainly because it's what I've done over the last 25 years so have developed the timing to do it correctly. However a pal of mine who flies heavy metal is a confirmed 'slipper'.
Edit: if you watch the landing from 0.40 seconds you will see a very nice demo of a correctly executed crab. The other thing I might add is if you're just learning xwind landings then listen to what your instructor tells you and don't try and learn from a flying forum; not saying that you are by the way. Absolutely nothing wrong with picking up points from a forum and raising them with your instructor though.
There are two schools of thought for these approaches, both have their vociferous champions. There's the crab approach as seen in the vid and the wing down approach which is like a side slip to land, although it's not as severe as a side slip. The wing down approach has you tracking the centreline with rudder and holding off any drift with the aileron which proponents would say (correctly) gives you the correct side wing down on touchdown and the correct sense of rudder to keep straight on the centreline on touchdown. The other advantage is that you know if you're going to run out of control authority because if you can't track the runway then you're not going to have enough rudder to stay straight once landed.
Having said all that
I've no idea what his company policy is for xwind landings, and some a/c are designed to take large side loads like that. I would say the bounce was a result of the firm touchdown and carrying a few extra knots for the wife and kids in case of wind shear.I might add that I'm not a big jet pilot, I just fly small stuff but it's a popular topic of discussion amongst the 'crabbers' and the 'slippers' and bear in mind that even a crab landing turns into a slip (or should do if you do it right!) landing at the last moment. I'm a 'crabber' mainly because it's what I've done over the last 25 years so have developed the timing to do it correctly. However a pal of mine who flies heavy metal is a confirmed 'slipper'.
Edit: if you watch the landing from 0.40 seconds you will see a very nice demo of a correctly executed crab. The other thing I might add is if you're just learning xwind landings then listen to what your instructor tells you and don't try and learn from a flying forum; not saying that you are by the way. Absolutely nothing wrong with picking up points from a forum and raising them with your instructor though.
Last edited by thing; 17th Feb 2014 at 09:05.
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Yeah, wasn't trying to learn technique from it, more so just trying to understand what went wrong from a theoretical perspective.
I guess i was watching it, and I noticed when he touched down that there was a noticeable right rudder deflection, whereas I fully expected to see mostly all left rudder to attempt to straighten the aircraft on the runway. BUT, maybe that does not work in a 767? How much rudder authority do you get in a 767?
Just questions, was kinda hoping a commercial jet pilot might pop in and provide some insight.
I guess i was watching it, and I noticed when he touched down that there was a noticeable right rudder deflection, whereas I fully expected to see mostly all left rudder to attempt to straighten the aircraft on the runway. BUT, maybe that does not work in a 767? How much rudder authority do you get in a 767?
Just questions, was kinda hoping a commercial jet pilot might pop in and provide some insight.
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No burst tyres and everyone walked away........... Not every landing can be a greaser, especially with the weather at the time.
As SLF at JFK on an Air India 747 flight we arrived and many tyres burst and there wasn't even a crosswind.........
My excuse to return to LHR on Concorde!
As SLF at JFK on an Air India 747 flight we arrived and many tyres burst and there wasn't even a crosswind.........
My excuse to return to LHR on Concorde!
This is the greatest argument for the controlled slip v crab-to-the-last-moment.
If the latter is misjudged the aircraft can be left drifting sideways above the runway and the usual reaction is to stuff the nose down to get the beast on the ground, You may get away with that on a little aeroplane but on a big machine you are likely to do serious damage in a nosewheel first landing.
The most common error in controlled slip is not to understand that when you set a bit of aileron into wind (with opposite rudder) - this is a new datum position which should be maintained with minor adjustments to cope with varying conditions. See-sawing of ailerons must be avoided at all costs.
Disclaimer - have not flown Airbus but believe their sidestick might require a slightly different technique.
If the latter is misjudged the aircraft can be left drifting sideways above the runway and the usual reaction is to stuff the nose down to get the beast on the ground, You may get away with that on a little aeroplane but on a big machine you are likely to do serious damage in a nosewheel first landing.
The most common error in controlled slip is not to understand that when you set a bit of aileron into wind (with opposite rudder) - this is a new datum position which should be maintained with minor adjustments to cope with varying conditions. See-sawing of ailerons must be avoided at all costs.
Disclaimer - have not flown Airbus but believe their sidestick might require a slightly different technique.
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Not true cumbrianboy. The sideslip (wing low) method is an acceptable method of landing the 757/767 in a crosswind although care should be taken to avoid over controlling in roll to avoid the engine or outboard flap contacting the runway. This method isn't recommended with crosswind components greater than 28 kts for the 757 and 26 kts for the 767. Other acceptable methods are de-crab during the flare and touchdown in crab. Interestingly the aircraft can be landed in crab only up to the crosswind limit (40 kts in our case).
Regards.
Regards.
commercial airlines never use the wing down approach for a cross wind landing, it's too risky especially with underslung engines.
to the list....It is perfectly acceptable on most types (I'll add the 777 to the list where it can be used) but was very very much discouraged on some of the the 4 engined beasts such as the 747 due to the risk of whacking an outboard engine in the flare.
The move against controlled slip was particularly vociferous with the Viscount - allegedly because of the risk of touching a prop. This was only likely if the aircraft was not flared.
"Wing down" is a bit of a misnomer as the opposite rudder reduces the bank angle to 2 or 3 degrees. The beauty of the system is that it allows a controlled normal flare without sudden inputs at the last moment.
Cumbrian boy - the B767/57 autopilot produces a very polished controlled slip Xwind landing which every commercial pilot should try to emulate.
"Wing down" is a bit of a misnomer as the opposite rudder reduces the bank angle to 2 or 3 degrees. The beauty of the system is that it allows a controlled normal flare without sudden inputs at the last moment.
Cumbrian boy - the B767/57 autopilot produces a very polished controlled slip Xwind landing which every commercial pilot should try to emulate.
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commercial airlines never use the wing down approach for a cross wind landing, it's too risky especially with underslung engines.
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Originally Posted by Doors to Automatic
Just a theory but at around 0:27 a substantial sudden sink rate developed. I would guess that this contributed to the heavy landing, even though it was arrested.
But, I digress. One day, we were doing a simulated engine failure in such conditions (tame by commercial standards, maybe gusting 15-20 knots), on a glide approach. I had it all sorted. At about 500feet, we got a massive downdraft. I did not see the VSI, but the instructor reckons it was the most he had ever seen. Needless to say, had it been a real engine failure it would have been all over!
As a person that has a fear of flying, I dont think a commercial flight will ever scare me again!
scotbill,
I was never bold enough to try wing down at all on the GLA VC8 (well, not intentionally 
).
Ex Argosy where it didn't matter then on to L1011 where it was de rigueur
The move against controlled slip was particularly vociferous with the Viscount - allegedly because of the risk of touching a prop. This was only likely if the aircraft was not flared.
).Ex Argosy where it didn't matter then on to L1011 where it was de rigueur
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A north/south undulating and uphill (from that end) runway so I'd say they did a damned good job.
Wouldn't have wanted to be in the back row as a punter though. I'd certainly have got my moneys worth
Wouldn't have wanted to be in the back row as a punter though. I'd certainly have got my moneys worth
