USMC Aviator receives British DFC

[TheWestCoast]

http://www.hqmc.marines.mil/News/NewsArticleDisplay/tabid/3488/Article/158733/marine-aviator-receives-high-flying-british-honor-for-saving-lives.aspx

[MightyGem]

Good effort. Well deserved.

[mmitch]

Well done. Well deserved.
mmitch.

[Wensleydale]

The Distinguished Flying Cross is a military decoration awarded to personnel of the United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)'s Royal Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force) and other services (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Armed_Forces), and formerly to officers of other Commonwealth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations) countries, for "an act or acts of valour, courage or devotion to duty whilst flying in active operations against the enemy".


I was not aware that the USA had joined the Commonwealth - or is this another dumbing down of the award after other ranks could be awarded the medal?


Do we have no tradition any more?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gif

[engineer(retard)]

Absolute respect, well done

[MPN11]

Wensleydale ... and would US Dress Regulations allow him to wear it Perhaps its a quid pro quo for the US award of the Bronze Star Medal (as they call it) to our people occasionally?

However, agreed on the "Well Done"

[Wensleydale]

I have absolutely no problem with acknowledging his bravery and great assistance to British troops. My point is that he is not eligible for the award under the rules! Had he been an American flying for the RAF (as often happened during WW2) then there would be no problem - but he is not!

[SASless]

Yes the Marine can wear the Medal....and will do so proudly. The question is where it would be worn in the "Stack" as I think Foreign Awards are worn below American Ribbons.



g. Foreign military decorations. Personnel who are specifically authorized by law to accept decorations from foreign governments may wear them in the order of their receipt after all U.S. decorations, the Good Conduct Medal, campaign
and service medals, and service and training ribbons. (See chap 9, AR 600–8–22, for application procedures to request authorization to accept and wear foreign decorations.) Personnel may not wear any foreign decorations on the uniform
unless at least one U.S. decoration or service medal is worn at the same time. Personnel will not wear foreign awards that do not conform to the standard U.S. size ribbon bar or medal.

[MPN11]

Thanks SASless ... So, size may be a problem ;)

[Two's in]

Because without rules on gallantry awards it would be anarchy out there. This marine's courage and selfless act are a testimonial to a society in decline, a society where people do not understand the importance of where and how medal ribbons are worn. Or how seniority works at mess functions, and how a cavalier attitude to recovering mortally wounded comrades in arms can completely upset the careful staff work that went into the ACO/ATO. Thank God we still have people who see how individuals thinking for themselves are a threat to our very existence.

[Beaver man]

As an ex-pongo, far too old for this conflict, I doubt very much if the evacuated guardsmen would give two hoots about whether or not it is correct that the award went to a yank!! No wonder people have the impression that we are a bunch of stuck-up arses!! Well done chap...and, as I said, as an ex-pongo, thank you to you and your team.

[Union Jack]

I was not aware that the USA had joined the Commonwealth - or is this another dumbing down of the award after other ranks could be awarded the medal?

I realise that you are being probably being intentionally facetious in the first clause of the above, Wensleydale, but whether the second clause is intended to be facetious or not, I feel that it requires serious reconsideration in view of the disrespect implied by both "another" and "dumbing down".:=

Serious admiration for Captain Jordan and his crew.:ok::ok:
Jack

[SASless]

Intentional or not....still a Dork!:=

Old habits just die hard I reckon.

[Sand4Gold]

To Capt Brian Jordan DFC (and crew) - many congratulations, and thank you.

S4G

[Beaver man]

Don't know about "dork" Sas, that's an insult to dorks. Pratt springs to mind! Mind you, ars@hole is good, talks a load of sh1t anyway.

[NutLoose]

If you look at the picture, the chap on his right, the only other winner is wearing his DFC bottom right of his medals, but it look like minus the ribbon

[glad rag]

other ranks could be awarded the medal?


“This has been a very amazing and humbling experience for me,” Jordan said. “I really am accepting this on behalf of my flight crew and all of the maintainers who work tirelessly on keeping these aircraft operating.

“Without them none of these actions would have been possible.”


Right, nice to clarify just where you are coming from. Could you supply a resume of your service including acts of "valour" in the face of enemy fire. :confused:

Chinless wonder?? perhaps, perhaps not???

[Tankertrashnav]

Right Wensleydale, if you are going to go out on a limb, it pays to have your facts right. I think regular members of this forum will recognise that I do know a bit about medals, so I feel entitled to give you a free lesson, which you are sorely in need of.

I quote from the original warrant dated 3rd Jun 1918, which instituted the Distinguished Flying Cross.

"Seventeenthly, it is ordained that Foreign Officers and gradings of an equivalent rank to those above mentioned who have been associated in Military operations with Our Army or our Indian, Dominion or Colonial Military Forces shall be eligible for the award of the Distinguished Flying Cross, the Air Force Cross, the Distinguished Flying Medal and the Air Force Medal"

Clear enough for you?

I think an apology for your fatuous "dumbing down" comment is now due, and an acknowledgment that you have been spouting off on a subject about which you apparently know little.

May I just add I think that this is an outstanding citation for the DFC and I congratulate Captain Jordan on a well-deserved award.

On the subject of wearing the medal, I do hope he gets a chance to wear it, if only for the fact that it's a much prettier medal than the US DFC ;)

British DFC

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/images/online_exhibitions/DFCLG.jpg

US DFC

http://0.tqn.com/d/usmilitary/1/0/m/D/dfc-3.gif

[goudie]

Well done that officer and his crew.:ok:
Thank you TTN for your, as usual, erudite post

[Wensleydale]

TTN


In which case - I apologise if the award can indeed be given to a foreign national. I was using the MOD website as the source for who is eligible to receive the medal, so I expected that to be correct.


As I have said before - I have no doubt as to the bravery of this chap and his crew - my comments were based solely on the award criteria which it is incorrect on the MOD website (if the 1918 rules still hold good).


Needless to say - my comments about other ranks were a wind up to see how many bit.....


As for some other comments - I always understood that in order to win an argument one presented a good case (as TTN did most effectively). Those without facts who rely upon personal insult have usually lost.

[Tankertrashnav]

Handsomely put, wensleydale :ok:

[knarfw]

As can be seen here with the other USMC aviator to be awarded the British DFC, the medal is worn after US decorations.


http://media.dma.mil/2014/Feb/12/2000779424/260/200/0/140212-M-JU941-003.JPG

[West Coast]

TTN

After looking at both, I'm in agreement.

[Dengue_Dude]

Personally, I couldn't give a rat's @rse where he wears it or even IF he wears it. The brilliant bit is it WAS awarded, and when it mattered to our guys, he and his crew stuck their @rses on the line.

Reckon a huge thank you was deserved and, for once, freely given.

WELL DONE ALL CONCERNED!

[PPRuNe Pop]

Come on guys. Cut this sniping and trolling out. I have tidied up a few posts - by deleting them. No more thanks, we have better things to do.

[oldmansquipper]

Respect!

Pure & simple

:D:D:D:ok:

[skyguard]

Respect to the USMC involved....and to the trolls and stuck up arses:


O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae mony a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion:
What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us,
An' ev'n devotion!

Translation:

And would some Power the small gift give us
To see ourselves as others see us!
It would from many a blunder free us,
And foolish notion:
What airs in dress and gait would leave us,
And even devotion!

Robert Burns 1786 ....ten years after the birth of a nation.

[thing]

Well done to Cpt Jordan and his crew. I didn't have a lot to do with the US Marines when I was in but the few I met left me in no doubt whatsoever that they would give their all to rescue a comrade. Cpt Jordan's modesty is very humbling.

[Tankertrashnav]

knarfw - interesting picture. Enlarging it reveals that the DFC is mounted at the end of the second row of medals, as is the US style for mounting long groups, rather than our way of overlapping in a single row. It would appear that the restriction on non standard size medals referred to in the regulations quoted earlier by SASless has been ignored.

Digging around I found an earlier award of the DFC to Captain William Chesarek USMC, this time for Iraq. The action also involved the rescue and casevac of a severely wounded British soldier. Interestingly the first woman to receive the British Military Cross was a medic who had attended the same casualty on that occasion. The Wiki entry mentions that Capt Chesarek received his award from The Queen at a Buckingham Palace investiture in 2007, and also illustrates his medal ribbons with the very distinctive DFC ribbon at the end.

William Chesarek - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Chesarek)

Interestingly Capt Chesarek is wearing the DFC ribbon at the head of his group for the investiture. This is in accord with US regulations, and on return to normal duties the DFC would go back to the end of his group.

Sorry to go on a bit, but I do find medals fascinating - shame I've only got one!

[NutLoose]

TTN, that's the picture I mentioned in post 16 and is in the first link, appears to be minus the ribbon, but looking at the huge version of that shot, it is there, just peeping out from behind the one on top.
See

http://media.dma.mil/2014/Feb/12/2000779424/-1/-1/0/140212-M-JU941-003.JPG

[MPN11]

A good effort at keeping it conformal!! :ok:

Must be the shortest DFC ribbon on record ;)

... and Chf Tech Prictor's Queens Medal for Champion Shot (http://www.queensmedal.net/files/prictor.htm) must be one of the longest (I believe he has a couple more bars since then).

(Edit = finished up with 14 awards = Medal + 13 bars) :cool:

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks Nutloose - it's much clearer on that picture.

I used to do medal mounting and always found it a fiddly job, so I eventually farmed it out to someone with much nimbler fingers than mine. I have to say I'd have given up at the outset if presented with that group to mount!

[Heathrow Harry]

well we hand out knighthoods or more precisely KBE's etc to the Yanks all the time

I'd be amazed if he didn't qualify for a gallantry medal - the only sort of medal that should be awarded to anyone IMHO

[teeteringhead]

the only sort of medal that should be awarded to anyone IMHO Indeed. As someone once said at the Secret Hampshire Helicopter Base:

"Round ones don't count!"

[SASless]

I give far more value to my heart shaped one.....done in Purple.

That is the ultimate "I showed up" gong!


http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4799339450272044&pid=15.1


I am still trying to figure out what "Military Merit" has to do with the Recipient....seems that accolade should go to the guy that was on the other side.

[hoodie]

Interestingly the first woman to receive the British Military Cross was a medic who had attended the same casualty on that occasion.

At the risk of slight thread drift, I followed TTN's link to Capt Chesarak's wiki page, and then on to that for the medic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Norris).

It is pleasing to learn that LCpl Michelle Suzanne Claire Norris, MC, RAMC is known as "Chuck". :O :D

[NutLoose]

I read her story in a book and it was humbling, she used to jokingly call the guy shot "dad" because of the age difference, she was pulled back in by the gunner if I remember correctly as he was concerned for her.... A well deserved MC


Indeed well deserved all round.

[goudie]

she was pulled back in by the gunner, if I remember correctly, as he was concerned for her.... A well deserved MC

One very courageous lady and well done the gunner too.

As George S. Patton said...
“The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other guy die for his.”

[NutLoose]

Her full citation is here, one brave lady, just out of training a few months before.

Big day for 5ft Army medic who won MC - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1546341/Big-day-for-5ft-Army-medic-who-won-MC.html)

[MPN11]

Cracking lass. :ok:

But then, realistically, isn't that what we ALL joined up to do?
Be brave, go the extra mile, be professional, never quit?

Just that the majority of us never got the opportunity to excel under fire, thank God :cool:

[500N]

Not a bad medal string, one MC and one War service medal.
Kind of says it all without any superfluous stuff to clutter it up.

[NutLoose]

Strange the way they have them mounted, one as a single row and one as a double, but roughly the same amount of medals.

Out of interest what are the medals they hold?, and what are the V and Stars on the ribbons denote.
No offence meant, but I find the US medals just do not appear to resemble each other and with the bewildering array of ribbons you can get it must be difficult for people to know what one actually has, maybe it's just because I'm used to seeing them in silver as opposed to gold finish and we tend to have a core of medals that vary more in shape.

[SASless]

"V" device notes the award was for Valor.....some awards can be for performance without Valor.....ie the Bronze Star.

The "Star" you refer to I believe might be the "Oak Leaf Cluster" which is an indication of a subsequent award of the Medal.....thus two of the same for different events.

The USMC Policy on Awards and Decorations.....should answer most questions.


http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/SecNavInst%201650.1H.pdf

[GreenKnight121]

Her full citation is here, one brave lady, just out of training a few months before.

Big day for 5ft Army medic who won MC - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1546341/Big-day-for-5ft-Army-medic-who-won-MC.html)
To this day she remains modest: a 5ft tall slip of a girl, and yet one so courageous that she has become the first female officer to win the Military Cross.

Pte Michelle "Chuck" Norris, 19,

Funny... I was unaware that in the UK a Pte is an officer. Somebody needs to inform the Torygraph about the British Army rank structure.


Well done to the Private - she "done good".

[Tankertrashnav]

Nutloose I think the advantage of two rows for larger groups is that the medal itself is more clearly visible. Our own single row system demands that medals are overlapped after the total exceeds 5. In very large groups (the largest I have seen was 13) most of the medals are pretty well obscured by their neighbours, as are the ribbons. I think Monty had 22 in this picture, the US Meritorious Service Medal is there, somewhere over to the right!

http://www.justmedals.com/PRODUCT/GROUPS/Monty/MontyOfficialSetFS.jpg

By the way this won't help you with Captain Jordan's group, but at the bottom of the Wiki entry for Captain Chesarek (see link on on post 29), there is a very clear illustration of his medal ribbons, with a key to identifying them.

Greenknight - nobody in the media these days has the remotest idea about the armed forces, even so-called defence correspondents come out with howlers like this all the time :*

[NutLoose]

This one impressed the heck out of me, especially bearing in mind his first medal

http://www.mhsa.org.au/images/Keith-Payne-Medal-Group.jpg

Includes a DSC and a Silver star

Military Historical Society of Australia - Queensland Branch (http://www.mhsa.org.au/QldBranch.html)

[500N]

Good old Keith Payne. It's a bloody impressive display of medals and
I believe the number has increased by 1 since then with the latest
Jubilee medal.

He's been out and about the last few years when the latest investitures
of VC's have occurred.

[SASless]

Remember the DSC is the second highest American Award for Gallantry....second only to the Medal of Honor. The Silver Star is the Third highest Award.

[West Coast]

I hope Keith Payne gets a bloody big pension given the service he gave his nation.

[Wander00]

I had not heard before of Keith Payne - what a man, what a career, hat sincerely doffed

[500N]

Here is another one worth reading, another Aussie VC winner from Vietnam

Ray Simpson (VC) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Simpson_%28VC%29)

4 Wars

VC
DCM
Silver star
Bronze Star

[Wander00]

Very humbling

[Tankertrashnav]

West Coast, as well as his army pension, he will receive the annuity given to all holders of the Victoria Cross


Under Subsection 103.4 of the Veterans' Entitlements Act 1986, the Australian Government provides a Victoria Cross Allowance. Until November 2005 the amount was A$3,230 per year. Since then this amount has been increased annually in line with the Australian Consumer Price Index.

Not a lot, but it's in the same league as the annuity paid in the UK.

[dubbleyew eight]

I love the clueless reporting

To this day she remains modest: a 5ft tall slip of a girl, and yet one so courageous that she has become the first female officer to win the Military Cross.

Pte Michelle "Chuck" Norris, 19,

so privates are officers now. I guess it is the modernisation of the military. :E

[NutLoose]

It just means a private in the UK is equivalent to a officer in some other countries :D

[Wander00]

NL - that is something new?

[rlsbutler]

I think @Wensleydale has been put straight on the award of our decorations to US and other foreign servicemen.

But to rub it in, I have tried and failed to find a PPRuNe thread where I mentioned a Lt William Strasser USCG on exchange who went home with a well deserved AFC. Looking for him, I found Cdr Elmer Stone USCG who won his in 1919. Was this a record ?


CDR Elmer Stone, USCG (http://www.uscg.mil/history/people/Elmer_Stone.asp)

[Tankertrashnav]

That is really interesting. I confess I had never heard of Cdr Stone, and I had always assumed that Alcock and Brown had made the first non-stop trans-Atlantic flight, but if I am reading this correctly, Stone and his crew beat them to it. Am I missing something?

The British DFC is awarded for combat actions, whilst the AFC is for "...an act or acts of valour, courage or devotion to duty whilst flying though not in active operations against the enemy." (original warrant). In the case of the US awards the reverse is the case, with the AFC being for combat operations, and as a second tier award it rates alongside the Navy Cross.

By the way as I was a little unkind to the rather dull US DFC earlier, here are pictures of both the British and US AFCs, and in this case I think both are very attractive.

British AFC

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a5/Air_Force_Cross_(United_Kingdom).png


US AFC

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Air_Force_Cross.jpg

[Nicholas Howard]

Is it of any significance that Chesarek was on exchange/loan to the RN and flying for 847NAS at the time of his award, whilst Jordan was flying for the USMC?

Nick

[ian16th]

TTN

The NC-4 started from the Naval Air Station at Rockaway, New York, at 1000 hours on 8 May, 1919, in concert with the NC-1 and NC-3, and although the NC-1 and NC-3 did not complete the journey, the NC-4 successfully crossed the Atlantic and landed in Lisbon, Portugal on 27 May 1919. I don't think that this was none stop! If it was , he went the pretty route!

[NutLoose]

Sorry to go on a bit, but I do find medals fascinating - shame I've only got one!

Never mind, order a replacement and then you can honestly say you have two. :}

[GreenKnight121]

That is really interesting. I confess I had never heard of Cdr Stone, and I had always assumed that Alcock and Brown had made the first non-stop trans-Atlantic flight, but if I am reading this correctly, Stone and his crew beat them to it. Am I missing something?
Quote:
The NC-4 started from the Naval Air Station at Rockaway, New York, at 1000 hours on 8 May, 1919, in concert with the NC-1 and NC-3, and although the NC-1 and NC-3 did not complete the journey, the NC-4 successfully crossed the Atlantic and landed in Lisbon, Portugal on 27 May 1919.
I don't think that this was none stop! If it was , he went the pretty route!

No, it was not non-stop.

The NC-4 was a Curtiss NC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtiss_NC) flying boat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_boat) which was designed by Glenn Curtiss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Curtiss) and his team, and manufactured by Curtiss Aeroplane and Motor Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtiss_Aeroplane_and_Motor_Company). In May 1919, the NC-4 became the first aircraft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airplane) to fly across the Atlantic Ocean, starting in New York State (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State) and making the crossing as far as Lisbon, Portugal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisbon,_Portugal), in 19 days. This included time for stops of numerous repairs and for crewmen's rest, with stops along the way in Massachusetts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts), Nova Scotia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova_Scotia) (on the mainland), Newfoundland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newfoundland_%28island%29), and twice in the Azores Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azores_Islands). Then its flight from the Azores to Lisbon completed the first transatlantic flight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight) between North America and Europe, and two more flights from Lisbon to northwestern Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain) to Plymouth, England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth,_England), completed the first flight between North America and Great Britain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain).


The accomplishment of the naval aviators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_aviator) of the NC-4 was somewhat eclipsed in the minds of the public by the first nonstop transatlantic flight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown), which took 15 hours, 57 minutes, and was made by the Royal Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force) pilots John Alcock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Alcock_%28RAF_officer%29) and Arthur Whitten Brown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Whitten_Brown), two weeks later.

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks Green Knight and Ian - as I said, I thought I must be missing something - should have looked at the dates.

Alcock and Brown famously ended their flight upended in an Irish bog, but as they say, "Any landing you walk away from...!"

[SASless]

We seem to be ignoring the civilian pilot who made that trip Solo on a trip that started in California and ended in Paris....with a stop in St. Louis to thank his Sponsors and one in in New York for Fuel.


A former US Army Pilot named Lindbergh.

[goudie]

A former US Army Pilot named Lindbergh.

'One Summer: America 1927' by Bill Bryson recounts some very interesting tales, regarding the early attempts to fly across the Atlantic.

[Tankertrashnav]

Whenever I see a picture of Charles Lindbergh I'm always surprised that he doesn't look like James Stewart!

I'm pretty sure Lindbergh is still pretty well known, to the extent that if you asked a sample of people who was the first to fly the Atlantic non-stop, many would incorrectly reply Lindbergh, who is much more famous than Alcock and Brown, possibly because of that film.

[SASless]

Jimmy Stewart was an Army Pilot as well....B-17's.....two DFC's!

[ian16th]

Jimmy Stewart was an Army Pilot as well....B-17's.....two DFC's! Didn't go onto things without fans, in the reserve force?

[SASless]

B-17, B-24, B-36, B-47, and B-52's among his aircraft Qualifications.

Combat flying was in 20 Missions in B-24's and one in a B-52......Private to Colonel in Four Years.


20 February 1966 | This Day in Aviation (http://www.thisdayinaviation.com/20-february-1966/)



http://billmauldin.com/wp-content/themes/billmauldin/images/40/40_007.jpg

[500N]

He was an observer on the B52 Mission over Vietnam.

[SASless]

Most B-52 crews were until they went downtown then they joined the shooting war!:E

[rlsbutler]

Hello SASless ! Are you a bit of an outsider for all your contributions ?

The light blue hero of my generation mostly fought his war in air-conditioned comfort ... until, as you say ...

Indeed, there is the embarrassing fact that we have started fighting the same sort of war in air-conditioned comfort on home soil. I hope nobody gets any medals for doing that.

[500N]

" The light blue hero of my generation mostly fought his war in air-conditioned comfort ... until, as you say ..."

I would say thought that Jimmy Stewart more than earned his medals.

Except Jimmy Stewart was in more than one war and did is major bit in the first.

Re Vietnam, I thought he only ever flew on one mission over Vietnam ?

[SASless]

For the "Not Knowing" among us.....the B-52's dropped heaps of bombs all during the War in Vietnam and Cambodia/Laos at little risk of being hit by hostile Anti-Aircraft fire. They were more at risk of Mid-Air Collision when Bomber Streams going opposite directions met one another. (But that is another story....).

At the end of the War....the B-52's found themselves dispatched to Hanoi and other very highly defended areas and lost quite a few aircraft until the North Vietnamese ran out of SAM's to shoot at them.

A bit of reading on that is eye opening....and proved the SAC Mentality was a bit too deeply engrained.


A list of the B-52's lost in the War.....

Boeing B-52 Stratofortress - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-52_Stratofortress)