Will anybody ever become an ace again?

[sangiovese.]

Pub discussion tonight after reading an obituary in the Telegraph - will anyone make ace again in our new battlespheres (or whatever the buzzword of the day is?) or are the days of air to air combat like we dreamed of when we joined numbered....

(but I got chopped at Valley so it didn't affect me, my main combat was in Seventh Heaven!)

[Dash8driver1312]

Depends how you count it. 5 kills=ace. Some air forces considered strafing a plane on the ground as a kill. Some air gunners would have racked up enough partials/probables to count as aces. Does a BVR missile kill count towards it or must it be guns? So many variables!

[Evalu8ter]

I think there's a fair chance this list will get longer....

List of Israeli flying aces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_flying_aces)

Not forgetting this quite talented chap...doubtless he has some capable colleagues that survive him...

Jalil Zandi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jalil_Zandi)

[N2erk]

No mention of Jalil Zandi's backseater(s) I guess, eh?:*

[Wensleydale]

How many air-forces will have enough aircraft to allow an opponent to become an ace? Laws of probability and all that.

[dallas]

Don't see why not, although the phrase will be updated to 'hi-scorer' :8

[Evalu8ter]

N2erk,
Perhaps he flew with assorted RIOs? Nobody disputes that Chuck Debellevue was the highest scoring US 'ace' of the SE Asia war - 6 - and that he was a WSO. Indeed, only 2 pilots appear in the US Ace category - 'Duke' Cunningham and Steve Ritchie - the others are all WSO/RIOs.

Of course, the NVAF had several more pilot aces......

There are plenty of large air forces out there where it's not inconceivable a Gen4/4.5/5 pilot could become 'ace in a day' in a single engagement given the potential overmatch.

[Pontius Navigator]

How many air-forces will have enough aircraft to allow an opponent to become an ace? Laws of probability and all that.

Put another way, you need a target rich environment with few 'own' assets so each pilot has more opportunities.

But as Dash says, so many variables. Does shooting turkeys count? Bounce a 4-ship of helos or AT and you only need one more?

[4Greens]

The next ace will be the controller of the drone that destroys five or more other drones.

[Pontius Navigator]

The next ace will be the controller of the drone that destroys five or more other drones.

On the other side? :)

[skippedonce]

In which case someone should do a 'countback' of the number of PHOENIX lost by the RA in southern Iraq. There may be a bombardier out there who qualifies!:ooh:

[teeteringhead]

Bounce a 4-ship of helos .. might just be a touche more difficult that you think PN! ;)

[Eclectic]

If the Argentinians try to attack the Falklands again...............

[Willard Whyte]

Cameron killed off entire fleets of aircraft with the 'stroke of a pen'...


I'll get me coat.

[charliegolf]

Pontious et al:

These are terms I remember from the Ladybird 'V Bombers' book when I was a kid. Combat ready I get- was once myself. But I'm sure I remember the idea of, 'Select Star' status among crews.

Wassat all about?

My memories of how the service cares for its people lead to my immediate assumption is that it means, "Congratulations Golf, you have earned the right to die first!" Is that close?

CG

[racedo]

The next ace will be the controller of the drone that destroys five or more other drones.

Much as I want to disagree with that statement I think you are pretty much spot on.........though combination of drones and aircraft is probably right. It doesn't matter if Ace loses the drone as another is available in standoff mode to join in.

[Pontius Navigator]

.. might just be a touche more difficult that you think PN! ;)

TH, I was joking. Hare and hounds.

One of the navs on my bombing course had been on night fighters (they tended not to fly very much at night) used to tell of the H&H exercises when it was nigh impossible to nail the helo.

A bit like when we were in a Vulcan and nailed by an F4E. Haul off, straight pass and treat it like a ground attack before they realised you were there. Once you were spotted it was game over.

[Evalu8ter]

"Once you were spotted it was game over"

Maybe for a V-bomber, but not for the RW unless the RW loses, or indeed never gets Tally. 1v1 post-Tally it was very rare to lose; 1v2 a harder evolution but requiring good comms and understanding between the FJ to co-ord effectively. A few seconds out of synch and the RW can switch and defend effectively 1v1 for a time.

Most 'kills' I've been on the wrong end of were unseen...plus ca change since Boelcke. A well flown, well trained, RWR equipped helo & crew is a hard target to find, track and kill.

[SASless]

I will settle for Peace....and skip the need for all this to happen.

[racedo]

I will settle for Peace....and skip the need for all this to happen.

Yup there is sense in that.

Perhaps if all wars were left to happen in digital on a screen and let people just get on with living.

[500N]

"Bounce a 4-ship of helos"

The one that always made me laugh was the crew of the F-15 during the Gulf war who got that Iraq Helicopter with a LGB while it was flying.

[Evalu8ter]

Yep - and they got a Blackhawk too.......

The F15s were cued by AWACS and from the height they were at the LGB outranged the AIM9 - plus acquiring the Hind with the Mx was tricky due to other environmental factors.

Don't forget the Hip shot down, gunned, by a pair of A10s.

Basically non-RWR fitted cabs, with poor SA and little appropriate trg splashed by 3rd party cued systems. Not representative of all operators around the world. The Israeli score over Lebanon in 1982 (82-0) suggests that FJs are not immune to being crushed by such technical and TTP overmatch....

[Pontius Navigator]

Evaluator, when I said 'once you were spotted' I meant you, the target, were spotted and implied that you did not counter detect.

Whilst on LGB attacks, don't forget the Bucc and the Cub though while it was moving it was still on the ground.

[Rigga]

I think there will be Aces again - but they are most likely to be R/C jockeys rather than plane drivers.

Why? Because they're the platforms that're being promoted most and are also most newsworthy...the sci-fi and gaming era's return.

[Flap62]

Eval,

I agree that playing by conventional rules a well operated helo is very difficult to kill. However it would be interesting to see the effect of a fighter not even bothering with guns/missiles and going over the top at 100ft and M1.lots...

[dctyke]

In these days of cutbacks maybe we could make anyone who gets 20 flying hours (in a fighter) in a month an ace:rolleyes:

[Evalu8ter]

Flap 62,
Agreed...but you've still got to find me!! There's been many a sortie when I've had to talk-on the FJ to get the merge I needed for instruction. I've even had to do this against AWACS controlled AI fighters, not just Harriers, Hawks and AJs. That's with me playing peacetime rules (normally 100', lights and squawk on...). Hardest fight? SHar - though Typhoon isn't far behind. Easiest? Jag! Most fun? GR7/9.....though if I'd ever fought a Tucano I'd imagine that would be quite fun too.....:E

Unseen foes will kill you - doesn't matter what you're flying.

As with all things though there are so many variables; terrain, weather, currency, TTPs etc etc.....

[SASless]

If the Helicopter sees you and you try your Mach 1+ run.....I would have to assume your turn radius is somewhat larger than that of the helicopter at any speed.

Hard to harm something you cannot get close to and by combining your speed and that of the 7.62 pellets merging with you....it would get awfully busy for the last few seconds of your Pass.

[Flap62]

Not quite SASless,
From the visual pickup by helo, communication in the cab and then reactionary movement will create very little angular displacement as viewed by the FJ. The lack of helo velocity and physics takes care of that. It therefore doesn't need a huge turn by the FJ to still get close to the helo and it doesn't need to directly overfly, just get quite close. The shock wave might just do the rest.

[MSOCS]

If the Helicopter sees you

IF it doesn't......toast! Helo wouldn't see a Mach 3 missile coming from above either.

Back on thread, entirely plausible to see another Ace. No reason why not.

[Evalu8ter]

MSOCS,
You don't need to see the Mach 3 Mx if you've either evaded or defeated the host radar.......or you've got a good MWS for the F2.

[Mogwi]

Hmm. My first helo kill was a Puma with vortices at 20ft and 450kts. Second (109 gunship) was 30mm (third pass!!) and third was on the ground so didn't count. Busy 5 minutes though.

Swing the lamp.

[Just This Once...]

Quite a lamp.

:D

[Evalu8ter]

Mogwi,
Respect fella - I've seen the results of your handiwork myself.

Similar circumstances to the Iraqi cabs - poor kit, poor TTPs and poor SA....and damn fine shooting....

[MSOCS]

Evalu8ter,

Oh, quite agree in principle. That said, many modern radars redefine that word. You'd need a pretty pimped out cab to shake off some of the weapon systems nowadays IMHO.

[Evalu8ter]

MSOCS,
Yep - but I've shaken off Captor, APG-63, AI24 and Blue Vixen inter alia. The first was by far the hardest....but I've spent a whole hour in the Coldstream against 2x Typhoon and had to talk them on every pass.....

Again, it's down to so many external factors. We should continue this over a beer!

[Hangarshuffle]

Chinese and he or she will be painting big American stars on the side.....(God that should do it)...

[downsizer]

Who was out last British ace?

[500N]

From memory, wasn't it a RAF Pilot in Korea ?

[Heathrow Harry]

Don't think so

From Aviation Forum

"There were 17 x RAF pilot's that competed exchange tours with USAF F-86 units during the Korean War. Five of these accounted for 6 MiG's, two of them by one pilot, Graham Hulse, who was later KIA, as was another RAF pilot.

There were also, 32 RAF pilots that competed exchange combat tours with 77 Sqn RAAF flying Meteor F.8's."