RFDS advert for pilot with 650 I/F hours minimum

[Judd]

Last week, newspaper advertisement by RFDS wanting to recruit flight ops manager/chief pilot. Min total time in command 5000 hours of which 650 hours instrument flight time.


Comment: There is no audit trail on instrument flight time after award of first instrument rating. That makes it impossible for RFDS to check veracity of claimed logged I/F time.


That being so, why put it in the ad?
.

[Ixixly]

Just because there is no really good way to audit and check IF time doesn't mean you just don't put it in. Besides, the people checking over these sorts of resumes aren't dullards, they'll be able to smell BS IF time a long way off just by the types of operations they have done in the past.

It's the same for all hours in a way, 5000hrs command doesn't necessarily mean you've done anything worthwhile/similar, you could have spent a ridiculous amount of time and money buzzing around a circuit by yourself. Multi time doesn't necessarily mean anything either, you could have your own brand spanking new Baron you just fly around on perfect sun shining weekends for the last 20years by yourself, always fully fuelled to 3km paved runways with nothing but CAVOK weather.

Hours in your logbook are simply hours, box ticking to satisfy the insurance companies and lawyers, it comes down to the person doing the hiring and firing to look at the hours you claim to have in the context of the companies, aircraft and locations you've flown to then decide if MAYBE they have given you the experience for the position they are looking to fill and then whether they will allow you the chance to prove yourself.

[Wally Mk2]

'Ixy' that's very true what you say, hours mean zip in many ways.
Those that don't have the experience as per their Parker Pen log book will show up during the RFDS's training/checking process. I've seen that before with guys who have had a zillion hours on twins but struggle to fly basic IF on one donk.

The old Beech 200 Sim the RFDS use is a ball breaker if ya below par, a great tool to filter out those that have gotten there by 'other means':-)
Also in this mugs game there's always someone who knows someone else & the word does get around if yr known to be 'average', somewhere you'll trip up in yr career if you BS during the journey.


Wmk2

[A37575]

The old Beech 200 Sim the RFDS use is a ball breaker if ya below par, a great tool to filter out those that have gotten there by 'other means':-)

Even the most sophisticated Level D full flight simulator is a "Ball Breaker" if the simulator instructor or check captain is the personality type that likes to humiliate a candidate. The King Air simulator is very old as you say. As many have testified it behaves nothing like the real aircraft. Especially on the ground.

If instrument flight hours were so important as to be considered a specific limitation for an RFDS interview, then don't you wonder why the more sophisticated operators such as Qantas, Virgin, Cathay Pacific, Jetstar etc do not include minimum instrument flight time experience for interview purposes? Whoever writes that RFDS advertisement is either naïve or has little experience in the real world of how many pilots easily fake their instrument flight time.

[empacher48]

I have said to many people looking at ads for various operators who seem to place rather high minimums, but it is their train set, they can run it the way they want to.


But without looking too deep, their Ops Specs or Exposition will require pilots to have a minimum amount of experience to operate for the operator, there isn't any point employing or advertising for anyone with less than what their Exposition state.


Yes the hours are flexible in the off chance you get the perfect potential employee, who may be a bit short in one area, but they are so rare and hard to find that it has only happened once here.


Most operators do employ people by conducting more than a glance of the CV or application form and those who fake hours stand out like dogs balls.

[Wally Mk2]

'A37' I can see where yr coming from but the two jobs here single pilot in a demanding role (RFDS) compared to multi pilot role mostly going from ILS to ILS in a protected & known environment (RPT) are a lot different.
There's very little actual inst flying by hand in a large jet in fact most Co's don't want you to touch the bloody thing where as out there in an RFDS typical mission in pitch black conditions in at times awful weather maneuvering in a black hole circuit after having done an NDB let down with someone screaming their heads off just behind you in the cabin terrified makes for a slightly diff level of awareness needed by the pilot, the only pilot I might add & this is where the RFDS require such high mins even if they are open to abuse & as I mentioned a Sim ride or check flight in actual conditions will show those up that have 'Parker Penned' their way there:-)

That old Beech Sim even if the examiner is reasonable can be a real hand full if the candidate isn't up to speed with good basic IFR skills/scans & don't forget yr on yr own in that black cave where as in a level D there's two of you with healthy procedures in place looking after each other as you would do day to day out on the line to deal with pretty much everything they throw at you & also with that level of automation as well as the training you receive it's really not a good comparison in my mind but each to their own I guess:ok:

Imagine doing all that in a SE plane? Those guys are either nuts or hero's!:ok:

Wmk2

[Tee Emm]

"That makes it impossible for RFDS to check veracity of claimed logged I/F time".


Agreed - a waste of time that proves nothing about the applicants experience and may even wipe out well qualified airmen who log honest hands on time - not automatic monkeys. Particularly as the regulations permit logging of instrument flight time while "monitoring" the autopilot doing its job. No hands on skill in that.


Someone mentioned in another thread about an Ansett first officer with 5000 hours who claimed 2000 of those on instruments. That was on F27 and 727. Just imagine having your steak and eggs up front with hostie stroking your fevered brow caused by the appalling stress of having a gourmet lunch while watching the captain chat up said hostie while you eat and drink and monitor the autopilot. Multi-tasking at its best.


And the highly paid co-joe had the gall to log it in his log book as fair dinkum instrument flight time. Spare me! Strongly suspect it still happens in the airlines.

[Fred Gassit]

Asking for a ratio of TT to IF time like that is practically a tacit acknowledgement of the probably routine over recording of IF time in log books.

[swh]

That being so, why put it in the ad?

My guess it would be a state or federal contractual minimum that RFDS accepted. There are two RFDS CP roles going at the moment, SE and Central, both have this same requirement.

[Wally Mk2]

'swh' yr quite right there most are a contractual requirement but not at all bases.

I recall a long time ago now b4 the EN AAV based contract came into effect (2000) that it stipulated twin Eng A/C (not new though) & certain hrs for it's drivers.
They did drop the hrs some years into the contract if I recall as there was a time where the RFDS had trouble getting pilots mid way thru the contract as the Airlines where playing vacuum cleaner at the time.

As a side note here I heard some time ago now that the Twin requirement in the contract was born about due but not limited to the paramedics union being strongly apposed having it's members going in SE machines due the associated dangers of the obvious, they had been used to twins anyway (C404's) just prior to the new contract.

Wmk2

[zanthrus]

SWH, No they don't.

[deadcut]

What happened to having a certain number of renewals? I thought in RFDS that was the case

[Howard Hughes]

What happened to having a certain number of renewals? I thought in RFDS that was the case
Same add asked for 8 or more multi-engine renewals!

Perhaps Wally was doing some consulting! ;)

[Centaurus]

My guess it would be a state or federal contractual minimum that RFDS accepted

Wouldn't it be incumbent on RDFS management to advise whoever writes the state or federal statement of desired qualifications, that 650 hours instrument flight time is an unnecessary restriction since it cannot be audited by CASA. Same with specifying a set number of instrument rating renewals. Another leg pulling exercise.

There are often many cases where Australian pilots have been flying overseas for many years using foreign state of origin instrument ratings. Could be that they only have two or three Australian issued instrument rating renewals. That does not mean they are less experienced. In fact it is possible they have flown much more in bad weather than seen in OZ.

Stipulating X number of instrument flight time and X number of instrument rating renewals just shows how out of touch with the real world of flying qualifications that some Australian operators are.

[swh]

Same add asked for 8 or more multi-engine renewals!

They used to be every 6 months

Stipulating X number of instrument flight time and X number of instrument rating renewals just shows how out of touch with the real world of flying qualifications that some Australian operators are.

I do not think so, the CP role is not entry level, they are managing the fixed wing operation (20+ million dollars worth of assets and millions of dollars in payroll) reporting to the CEO. The medical staff also have fairly high requirements, the entry level nurses normally have at least midwifery and intensive care training (like being a fixed wing and helicopter pilot). The nursing managers normally have higher requirements, so do the doctors.

If I was a line pilot I would want to have an experienced chap there to talk to before embarking on a mercy flight, to look at the risks objectively.

This is from the NSW Health rotary wing tender

Pilots, Aircrewmen and Engineers
 Through out the contract duration pilots, air crewman and LAME must meet minimum experience and qualification requirements
 To be approved by NSW Ambulance
 Management team to be approved by NSW Ambulance
 Rostering
– Rosters of pilots and aircrewman should align with the rosters for medical crew, where possible.

[morno]

This has been discussed before, but what do you all think is a reasonable percentage of IF time to Total time, when you've spent most of your career flying around in GA and then turboprops?

Eg. If you're talking 7-8% (I think that's quite reasonable), then that's only in the order of 8,000hrs. Remember this is a HOFO role they're talking about. Not a line pilot.

Agree, the IF time in relation to the stipulated minimum is a bit out, but I doubt they're looking for just a 5,000hr pilot to be honest.

morno

[Tankengine]

23000+ hours, slightly less than 1000IF.:hmm:
I think the requirement is silly as it depends on what grounds you have logged the IF. I could probably have logged 3000 - 4000 hours IF, but I have formula and are not looking or any other jobs.;)

[morno]

Tankengine, that's fair enough. But what has the majority of your flying been?

I still think that 7-8% is quite normal, when you've spent a fair bit of time flying around in turboprops doing things like night freight or aeromed, sitting in the mid flight levels in the weather.

Mine sits around that, and I would be quite realistic when I put down how much IF time I did that day/night.

morno

[Tankengine]

26 years of it is QF, I log 1.00 hour when I am PF and WX bad, instrument app etc and 30 mins when PF and WX good. Don't count all the hours drilling along :zzz:in cloud, don't count hours when PF while the other guy in the bunk, who knows how many hours claimable as "IF"?:eek:

Like I said, depends what you put in your logbook.:ooh:

[Hobo]

If you are flying under IFR then it's all IF regardless of the weather isn't it?

[Desert Duck]

The truth about IF logbook hours vs real IF hours will show up to a good Check Capt on a Sim or Flight Check.

[BlatantLiar]

If you are flying under IFR then it's all IF regardless of the weather isn't it?

Yes, that is correct sir.

[Tinstaafl]

I hope you're being facetious, Hobo, and I hope you're just playing along with Hobo, BlatantLiar.

[Wally Mk2]

I was thinking the same 'tiny' these guys can't be serious:-)

A guy has been flying for many years has say 8000 hrs all flt plans logged under the Inst Flt rules, doe's that mean he has 8000 hrs IF? Hardly !

Amazing the amount of people who really have no idea of the rules!


Wmk2

[PLovett]

There is a difference between "flying under IFR" and "IF hours". I have seen job adverts that stipulate the former and usually have a much higher figure than adverts asking for a certain number of the latter.

That said, from my limited contact with the RFDS I have been told the more critical figure is the number of night hours in the log book. Somewhat understandable when you consider that they can be tasked with flying into a black hole with only car lights or kerosene pots lighting the flat bit. A butt clenching undertaking no matter what the weather is like at the time.

[Stationair8]

I thought the RFDS filled this position last year?

[Wally Mk2]

'S8' they did but like most things in life there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes there. Lets just say that the 'package' wasn't that good after all so it's back to the drawing board me thinks:-)


Wmk2

[Martin VanNostrum]

I've logged 23,000 hours of which 1,200 are IFR (hand flying in IFR weather). That would be a fair and honest ratio.

[Howard Hughes]

I thought the RFDS filled this position last year?
Advertised but not filled.

[Green gorilla]

450 instrument hours, 8600 total.

[clear to land]

About 14000TT/1100 IF

[Fred Gassit]

Strangely enough Gorilla, we have almost exactly the same numbers..:ok:

[Tinstaafl]

I have 7000+ and 450 IF - and that IF time was increased significantly thanks to 2 1/2 years flying from the Shetland Islands, otherwise it would be less. Mind you, the last few days in Florida has been Shetland-like. 3 days flying with low cloud, rain, drizzle & a 300' overcast. Trust the mechanical gods to break my autopilot two weeks ago...

[Stationair8]

I thought the guy that was the Kingair 350 instructor at the Ansett sim centre went to or was in the running for the CP job?

[aussiepilot]

RFDS have historically had high experience requirements when compared to the airlines, does that translate to higher pay too?

[Jamair]

Yep! :D :ok:

[Towering Q]

On a slight tangent....the RFDS Westops CP has just ticked over 40 years with the company....not a bad effort!!:ok:

[Wally Mk2]

Now that's impressive, 40 yrs, amazing considering they have PC's !!!:E

Thought about transferring there once upon a time as I heard on the grape vine that they where considering going back to a safer fleet with the old Beech's but alas they are still far braver than I'd ever wanna be:ok:

Wmk2

[pithblot]

Congratulations Michael, that's a great milestone! A lot of pilots, myself included, have have benefitted greatly from your experience over the years. Thank you.

I'm guessing you would have just missed flying the C180 for the RFDS, but would have got your hands on the;
B58
PA31
C421
C425
C441
B90
B200
PC12
And that jet thingy.

Is there any truth in the story that the B58 came to be as a result of a request of the RFDS WA Section to stretch the B55?

Cheers Bleusie, All the best for the rest of your career :ok:

Pithblot

[Towering Q]

Pithblot.....the answer I got for your B58 question was:

"RFDS WA Section (Harold Dicks) asked Walter Beech could they make the cargo door bigger on the B55, they came up with the dual rear doors on the B58.

We got one of the first production B58 aircraft (VH-FDN) and Bell Brothers got the second in WA."

[Howard Hughes]

On a slight tangent....the RFDS Westops CP has just ticked over 40 years with the company....not a bad effort!!
That's an amazing effort! :D