RFDS advert for pilot with 650 I/F hours minimum
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RFDS advert for pilot with 650 I/F hours minimum
Last week, newspaper advertisement by RFDS wanting to recruit flight ops manager/chief pilot. Min total time in command 5000 hours of which 650 hours instrument flight time.
Comment: There is no audit trail on instrument flight time after award of first instrument rating. That makes it impossible for RFDS to check veracity of claimed logged I/F time.
That being so, why put it in the ad?
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Comment: There is no audit trail on instrument flight time after award of first instrument rating. That makes it impossible for RFDS to check veracity of claimed logged I/F time.
That being so, why put it in the ad?
.
Just because there is no really good way to audit and check IF time doesn't mean you just don't put it in. Besides, the people checking over these sorts of resumes aren't dullards, they'll be able to smell BS IF time a long way off just by the types of operations they have done in the past.
It's the same for all hours in a way, 5000hrs command doesn't necessarily mean you've done anything worthwhile/similar, you could have spent a ridiculous amount of time and money buzzing around a circuit by yourself. Multi time doesn't necessarily mean anything either, you could have your own brand spanking new Baron you just fly around on perfect sun shining weekends for the last 20years by yourself, always fully fuelled to 3km paved runways with nothing but CAVOK weather.
Hours in your logbook are simply hours, box ticking to satisfy the insurance companies and lawyers, it comes down to the person doing the hiring and firing to look at the hours you claim to have in the context of the companies, aircraft and locations you've flown to then decide if MAYBE they have given you the experience for the position they are looking to fill and then whether they will allow you the chance to prove yourself.
It's the same for all hours in a way, 5000hrs command doesn't necessarily mean you've done anything worthwhile/similar, you could have spent a ridiculous amount of time and money buzzing around a circuit by yourself. Multi time doesn't necessarily mean anything either, you could have your own brand spanking new Baron you just fly around on perfect sun shining weekends for the last 20years by yourself, always fully fuelled to 3km paved runways with nothing but CAVOK weather.
Hours in your logbook are simply hours, box ticking to satisfy the insurance companies and lawyers, it comes down to the person doing the hiring and firing to look at the hours you claim to have in the context of the companies, aircraft and locations you've flown to then decide if MAYBE they have given you the experience for the position they are looking to fill and then whether they will allow you the chance to prove yourself.
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'Ixy' that's very true what you say, hours mean zip in many ways.
Those that don't have the experience as per their Parker Pen log book will show up during the RFDS's training/checking process. I've seen that before with guys who have had a zillion hours on twins but struggle to fly basic IF on one donk.
The old Beech 200 Sim the RFDS use is a ball breaker if ya below par, a great tool to filter out those that have gotten there by 'other means':-)
Also in this mugs game there's always someone who knows someone else & the word does get around if yr known to be 'average', somewhere you'll trip up in yr career if you BS during the journey.
Wmk2
Those that don't have the experience as per their Parker Pen log book will show up during the RFDS's training/checking process. I've seen that before with guys who have had a zillion hours on twins but struggle to fly basic IF on one donk.
The old Beech 200 Sim the RFDS use is a ball breaker if ya below par, a great tool to filter out those that have gotten there by 'other means':-)
Also in this mugs game there's always someone who knows someone else & the word does get around if yr known to be 'average', somewhere you'll trip up in yr career if you BS during the journey.
Wmk2
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The old Beech 200 Sim the RFDS use is a ball breaker if ya below par, a great tool to filter out those that have gotten there by 'other means':-)
If instrument flight hours were so important as to be considered a specific limitation for an RFDS interview, then don't you wonder why the more sophisticated operators such as Qantas, Virgin, Cathay Pacific, Jetstar etc do not include minimum instrument flight time experience for interview purposes? Whoever writes that RFDS advertisement is either naïve or has little experience in the real world of how many pilots easily fake their instrument flight time.
I have said to many people looking at ads for various operators who seem to place rather high minimums, but it is their train set, they can run it the way they want to.
But without looking too deep, their Ops Specs or Exposition will require pilots to have a minimum amount of experience to operate for the operator, there isn't any point employing or advertising for anyone with less than what their Exposition state.
Yes the hours are flexible in the off chance you get the perfect potential employee, who may be a bit short in one area, but they are so rare and hard to find that it has only happened once here.
Most operators do employ people by conducting more than a glance of the CV or application form and those who fake hours stand out like dogs balls.
But without looking too deep, their Ops Specs or Exposition will require pilots to have a minimum amount of experience to operate for the operator, there isn't any point employing or advertising for anyone with less than what their Exposition state.
Yes the hours are flexible in the off chance you get the perfect potential employee, who may be a bit short in one area, but they are so rare and hard to find that it has only happened once here.
Most operators do employ people by conducting more than a glance of the CV or application form and those who fake hours stand out like dogs balls.
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'A37' I can see where yr coming from but the two jobs here single pilot in a demanding role (RFDS) compared to multi pilot role mostly going from ILS to ILS in a protected & known environment (RPT) are a lot different.
There's very little actual inst flying by hand in a large jet in fact most Co's don't want you to touch the bloody thing where as out there in an RFDS typical mission in pitch black conditions in at times awful weather maneuvering in a black hole circuit after having done an NDB let down with someone screaming their heads off just behind you in the cabin terrified makes for a slightly diff level of awareness needed by the pilot, the only pilot I might add & this is where the RFDS require such high mins even if they are open to abuse & as I mentioned a Sim ride or check flight in actual conditions will show those up that have 'Parker Penned' their way there:-)
That old Beech Sim even if the examiner is reasonable can be a real hand full if the candidate isn't up to speed with good basic IFR skills/scans & don't forget yr on yr own in that black cave where as in a level D there's two of you with healthy procedures in place looking after each other as you would do day to day out on the line to deal with pretty much everything they throw at you & also with that level of automation as well as the training you receive it's really not a good comparison in my mind but each to their own I guess
Imagine doing all that in a SE plane? Those guys are either nuts or hero's!
Wmk2
There's very little actual inst flying by hand in a large jet in fact most Co's don't want you to touch the bloody thing where as out there in an RFDS typical mission in pitch black conditions in at times awful weather maneuvering in a black hole circuit after having done an NDB let down with someone screaming their heads off just behind you in the cabin terrified makes for a slightly diff level of awareness needed by the pilot, the only pilot I might add & this is where the RFDS require such high mins even if they are open to abuse & as I mentioned a Sim ride or check flight in actual conditions will show those up that have 'Parker Penned' their way there:-)
That old Beech Sim even if the examiner is reasonable can be a real hand full if the candidate isn't up to speed with good basic IFR skills/scans & don't forget yr on yr own in that black cave where as in a level D there's two of you with healthy procedures in place looking after each other as you would do day to day out on the line to deal with pretty much everything they throw at you & also with that level of automation as well as the training you receive it's really not a good comparison in my mind but each to their own I guess
Imagine doing all that in a SE plane? Those guys are either nuts or hero's!
Wmk2
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"That makes it impossible for RFDS to check veracity of claimed logged I/F time".
Agreed - a waste of time that proves nothing about the applicants experience and may even wipe out well qualified airmen who log honest hands on time - not automatic monkeys. Particularly as the regulations permit logging of instrument flight time while "monitoring" the autopilot doing its job. No hands on skill in that.
Someone mentioned in another thread about an Ansett first officer with 5000 hours who claimed 2000 of those on instruments. That was on F27 and 727. Just imagine having your steak and eggs up front with hostie stroking your fevered brow caused by the appalling stress of having a gourmet lunch while watching the captain chat up said hostie while you eat and drink and monitor the autopilot. Multi-tasking at its best.
And the highly paid co-joe had the gall to log it in his log book as fair dinkum instrument flight time. Spare me! Strongly suspect it still happens in the airlines.
Agreed - a waste of time that proves nothing about the applicants experience and may even wipe out well qualified airmen who log honest hands on time - not automatic monkeys. Particularly as the regulations permit logging of instrument flight time while "monitoring" the autopilot doing its job. No hands on skill in that.
Someone mentioned in another thread about an Ansett first officer with 5000 hours who claimed 2000 of those on instruments. That was on F27 and 727. Just imagine having your steak and eggs up front with hostie stroking your fevered brow caused by the appalling stress of having a gourmet lunch while watching the captain chat up said hostie while you eat and drink and monitor the autopilot. Multi-tasking at its best.
And the highly paid co-joe had the gall to log it in his log book as fair dinkum instrument flight time. Spare me! Strongly suspect it still happens in the airlines.
Last edited by Tee Emm; 30th Jan 2014 at 22:31.
Originally Posted by Judd
That being so, why put it in the ad?
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'swh' yr quite right there most are a contractual requirement but not at all bases.
I recall a long time ago now b4 the EN AAV based contract came into effect (2000) that it stipulated twin Eng A/C (not new though) & certain hrs for it's drivers.
They did drop the hrs some years into the contract if I recall as there was a time where the RFDS had trouble getting pilots mid way thru the contract as the Airlines where playing vacuum cleaner at the time.
As a side note here I heard some time ago now that the Twin requirement in the contract was born about due but not limited to the paramedics union being strongly apposed having it's members going in SE machines due the associated dangers of the obvious, they had been used to twins anyway (C404's) just prior to the new contract.
Wmk2
I recall a long time ago now b4 the EN AAV based contract came into effect (2000) that it stipulated twin Eng A/C (not new though) & certain hrs for it's drivers.
They did drop the hrs some years into the contract if I recall as there was a time where the RFDS had trouble getting pilots mid way thru the contract as the Airlines where playing vacuum cleaner at the time.
As a side note here I heard some time ago now that the Twin requirement in the contract was born about due but not limited to the paramedics union being strongly apposed having it's members going in SE machines due the associated dangers of the obvious, they had been used to twins anyway (C404's) just prior to the new contract.
Wmk2
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What happened to having a certain number of renewals? I thought in RFDS that was the case
Perhaps Wally was doing some consulting!
My guess it would be a state or federal contractual minimum that RFDS accepted
There are often many cases where Australian pilots have been flying overseas for many years using foreign state of origin instrument ratings. Could be that they only have two or three Australian issued instrument rating renewals. That does not mean they are less experienced. In fact it is possible they have flown much more in bad weather than seen in OZ.
Stipulating X number of instrument flight time and X number of instrument rating renewals just shows how out of touch with the real world of flying qualifications that some Australian operators are.
Same add asked for 8 or more multi-engine renewals!
Stipulating X number of instrument flight time and X number of instrument rating renewals just shows how out of touch with the real world of flying qualifications that some Australian operators are.
If I was a line pilot I would want to have an experienced chap there to talk to before embarking on a mercy flight, to look at the risks objectively.
This is from the NSW Health rotary wing tender
Pilots, Aircrewmen and Engineers
Through out the contract duration pilots, air crewman and LAME must meet minimum experience and qualification requirements
To be approved by NSW Ambulance
Management team to be approved by NSW Ambulance
Rostering
– Rosters of pilots and aircrewman should align with the rosters for medical crew, where possible.
This has been discussed before, but what do you all think is a reasonable percentage of IF time to Total time, when you've spent most of your career flying around in GA and then turboprops?
Eg. If you're talking 7-8% (I think that's quite reasonable), then that's only in the order of 8,000hrs. Remember this is a HOFO role they're talking about. Not a line pilot.
Agree, the IF time in relation to the stipulated minimum is a bit out, but I doubt they're looking for just a 5,000hr pilot to be honest.
morno
Eg. If you're talking 7-8% (I think that's quite reasonable), then that's only in the order of 8,000hrs. Remember this is a HOFO role they're talking about. Not a line pilot.
Agree, the IF time in relation to the stipulated minimum is a bit out, but I doubt they're looking for just a 5,000hr pilot to be honest.
morno
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23000+ hours, slightly less than 1000IF.
I think the requirement is silly as it depends on what grounds you have logged the IF. I could probably have logged 3000 - 4000 hours IF, but I have formula and are not looking or any other jobs.
I think the requirement is silly as it depends on what grounds you have logged the IF. I could probably have logged 3000 - 4000 hours IF, but I have formula and are not looking or any other jobs.
Tankengine, that's fair enough. But what has the majority of your flying been?
I still think that 7-8% is quite normal, when you've spent a fair bit of time flying around in turboprops doing things like night freight or aeromed, sitting in the mid flight levels in the weather.
Mine sits around that, and I would be quite realistic when I put down how much IF time I did that day/night.
morno
I still think that 7-8% is quite normal, when you've spent a fair bit of time flying around in turboprops doing things like night freight or aeromed, sitting in the mid flight levels in the weather.
Mine sits around that, and I would be quite realistic when I put down how much IF time I did that day/night.
morno
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26 years of it is QF, I log 1.00 hour when I am PF and WX bad, instrument app etc and 30 mins when PF and WX good. Don't count all the hours drilling along 
in cloud, don't count hours when PF while the other guy in the bunk, who knows how many hours claimable as "IF"?
Like I said, depends what you put in your logbook.
in cloud, don't count hours when PF while the other guy in the bunk, who knows how many hours claimable as "IF"?Like I said, depends what you put in your logbook.