LtGen Hal Moore-Failing Health

[SASless]

LtGen Hal Moore, CO of the 7th Cav unit that fought the Ia Drang Valley fight in Vietnam ("We Were Soldiers and Young" by Joe Galloway) is in rapidly failing health and plans are being made for his Funeral in Auburn, Alabama.

Initial Reports are he will be buried at Fort Benning, Georgia.

"Garry Owen, General!"......a real Soldier that Man!

He is the very essence of an Infantry Commander and Leader of Soldiers in combat.


http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4536324223469150&pid=15.1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJo6YZTbPXg

[500N]

Sad to hear.

[RAFEngO74to09]

For those not familiar with Lt Gen Moore's inspirational leadership during the Vietnam War, I can recommend watching the movie We Were Young (2002) in which he is portrayed by Mel Gibson. The movie is based on a book written by Lt Gen Moore and a civilian reporter Joe Galloway who was also present during the battle and decorated for helping evacuate wounded under fire. Lt Gen Moore was the first in his West Point class (1945) to be promoted to 1-star, 2-star and 3-star.

The full movie is available free on line here:

Watch We Were Soldiers (2002) Online for Free - Viooz (http://viooz.co/movies/2914-we-were-soldiers-2002.html)

[racedo]

Book goes onto book list for this year...........

I like his Faith.............."I believe I will see her" again in the Youtube piece, I can understand that.

[500N]

What is interesting from that battle is the number of people who went on
and up for various reasons and became well known.

Apart from Moore and Plumley, you had Joe Galloway, Rick Rescorla
Ed Freeman and Bruce Crandall and from memory a couple of others who were decorated in that battle who went on and applied the lessons learned.

My first 2IC, A Capt who was an ex RSM, tough bastard and the guy
who knocked me into shape gave me a book on Vietnam and the first
chapter is on Ia Drang.

[SASless]

Moore made some very good decisions early in the fight and all during the battle maneuvered his Battalion and later a second Battalion in exactly the right way to counter the NVA's attacks.

He was very concerned at the outset about his Battalion being brought in Piecemeal with fairly long delays between Lifts arriving.

Standard tactics called for a 360 degree security perimeter at the LZ....but with only 88 Troops on the first Lift....he knew he could not do that and push contact with any Enemy forces back from his Perimeter. He elected to keep a fair number of troops close to the center of the LZ and send out small squads to seek out the enemy units. He felt that way he could direct what Troops he had towards the point of contact.

He also stayed on the ground in the LZ directing the battle from that location and put his Arty and Air FO's in his Command and Control Helicopter so they would have the best Comms and view of the battlefield to facilitate their coordinating of Fires.

This animation shows how he moved his troops......it is un-canny how he thwarted each move by the NVA.

The sad thing about this battle is each side thought they won. We thought we had proved overwhelming firepower from air units and artillery combined with the helicopter support gave us the winning hand.

The NVA learned they had to get in close and maintain very close contact to prevent us from using that superior firepower against them due to the close proximity of their forces to ours.


Ia Drang and Landing Zone X-Ray (http://www.wtj.com/articles/xray/)


The LZ X-Ray fight resulted in 79 US KIA, 121 WIA, Three Medals of Honor, Two DSC's, and a Bronze Star for a Civilian (Joe Galloway).

The Battalion that relieved Moore's unit was ambushed on the way to LZ Albany and lost 155 KiA and 124 WIA. Their's is a heartbreaking story.

[racedo]

Broken Arrow Alert ?
Day 3.......

[500N]

Racedo

Meaning ?

(Not what Broken Arrow means), what is the meaning or intention of your post ?

[racedo]

Broken Arrow as current used in US means lost Nuke.

In link from SAS on day 3 there is a "Broken Arrow Alert" flashed up at time Cav had been overrun in certain sections.

I'm trying to understand the meaning of the term used then.

[500N]

I thought it meant (then) all available air support was required to
provide support to the unit that had put out the call over previous
taskings.

But I will wait for SaSless to explain since he is likely to know
the exact or correct answer.

[RAFEngO74to09]

"Pinnacle - Broken Arrow" refers to an accidental event that involves nuclear weapons, warheads or components which does not create the risk of nuclear war (public available info on Wikipedia).

In the context of the Vietnam War, the term "Broken Arrow" was used to call in all available aircraft for airstrikes to assist a unit facing imminent defeat in battle.

[unmanned_droid]

The 'Broken Arrow' call sign was used in this case to signify the commander on the ground needs all available fire support. I think it was because Hal thought that he was about to be over-run?

I think that's the bit in the film where he listens and hears enemy fire through 360 degrees, and then makes the Broken Arrow call.

[The Old Fat One]

The book is excellent and written with great humanity. The film is total Hollywood crap...I'm amazed any military person could endorse it.

[SASless]

500N,

I shall defer to Hollywood on this one....the only times I heard a call for help go out about units being over run it was done in plain English.

When you hear that kind of talk it is heart stopping in effect.

Then.....it is like a "Hey Rube!" call at the circus.....everyone that can help heads that way.

Generally it was Platoons that got over run although some Fire Bases had that happen. In some situations units called friendly artillery down on their own positions and in one instance called Napalm on themselves. A 101st Airborne Company Commander named Carpenter did that and got the DSC for doing so. Oddly, none of his guys were hurt and the Napalm broke the Enemy attack. Carpenter played the "Lonesome End" on the West Point Football Team.

The classic case of a unit being over run was the Special Forces unit at the Lang Vei SF Camp not far from Khe Sanh. The NVA attacked using PT-76 Tanks. The only weapon the SF guys had to counter the Tanks were LAW Rockets that proved damn near useless. The QRF for the SF guys was the Marines at Khe Sanh.....who stayed home.....but to be fair it was more high levels of command that caused that rather than the Marines at KS itself.

Feb 6-7, 1968: Battle of Lang Vei Special Forces Camp | Vietnam War | Command Posts (http://www.commandposts.com/2013/02/feb-6-7-1968-battle-of-lang-vei-special-forces-camp/)

[500N]

SaS

One of the best books I have read is MACV-SOG by Maj John Plaster.
I have his Sniper book sitting on the floor by my desk.

The MACV-SOG book goes into some great detail about the various fire bases
that were over run including Lang Vei.

[wondering]

Not having read any of the books mentioned (just seen the likes of Born on the 4th of July, Full Metal Jacket, Platoon etc.). Just curious has any of the real participants mentioned above questioned the Vietnam war?

[Rakshasa]

The book is excellent and written with great humanity. The film is total Hollywood crap...I'm amazed any military person could endorse it.

What TOFO said. The book is excellent but the movie casually air brushes out the LZ Albany battle and pastes in a typical Hollywood America: **** Yeah! ending in it's place. Utterly ruined what might otherwise have been a very good adaptation.

[500N]

I found the interview with Joe Galloway on youtube and watched it again tonight.

He mentions about "Broken Arrow" which he said were the words used at that time to designate all available support required.

A very good interview which he describes his one nightmare from that battle
and some other interesting insights.

Considering he was not a soldier, a well earned bronze Star with V device.

[racedo]

Not having read any of the books mentioned (just seen the likes of Born on the 4th of July, Full Metal Jacket, Platoon etc.). Just curious has any of the real participants mentioned above questioned the Vietnam war?

Their role was to do as Political leadeship deemed.

I think the fact they are still held in high esteem suggests that what ever feelings they had in private, were kept private, rather than publicly aired to suit media frenzy.

[500N]

Considering quite a few if not all of them continued on in the Army
for some considerable time after that battle and many went on to middle
and senior ranks, I would agree.

[SASless]

The movie was typical Hollywood in its ending for sure.....nothing at all like the real events.

The LZ X-Ray fight was a distinct event from the subsequent ambush and destruction of the Battalion that was moving by ground towards LZ Albany.

That event could very well be its own movie.

In my view, the best Vietnam Movie is "Hamburger Hill"......followed perhaps by "More American Graffiti".

Books I recommend....

"We Were Soldiers Once....And Young" by Moore and Galloway

"The Army and Vietnam" by Andrew Krepinevich, Jr.

"On Strategy, A Critical Analysis of the Vietnam War" by Harry G. Summers

"Thunderbolt", by Lewis Sorley (about General Creighton Abrams)

"Westmoreland" by Lewis Sorley (about General Westmoreland)

"Dereliction of Duty" by H.R. McMaster

"Flawed Giant" by Robert Dallek (about LBJ)

"A Bright Shining Lie" by Neil Sheehan (about John Paul Vann)

[Evalu8ter]

Good list SASLess;
I'd add "We are Soldiers Still..." by Hal Moore- and then make every politician read it. The post-war bridges that he built with his wartime enemy are a lesson to all who'd practice politics with violence.

I'd also add Summers' 'Rise and fall of an American Army' and Hackworth's 'About Face'.

[SASless]

Absolutely....excellent books.

Some others I would add to my list....

"Steel My Soldiers Heart" by David Hackworth

"Low Level Hell" by Hugh Mills

"Five Years to Freedom" by Nick Rowe

"A Rumour of War" by Phillip Caputo

"The Killing Zone" by Frederick Downs

"Platoon Leader" by James McDonald

"Firebase Illingsworth" by Phillip Keith

"Hell In A Very Small Place" by Bernard Fall

"Street Without Joy" by Bernard Fall

"When Hell Was In Session" by Jeremiah Denton






Firebase Illingsworth was partially over run by 400 NVA Soldiers while being defended by 220 American's....who incurred 24 KIA, 54 WIA, with one Medal of Honor being given to a Soldier for his actions that night. The fight devolved to Hand to Hand combat during part of the attack.






http://www.landscaper.net/images/Illings1.jpg

[SASless]

Good News!

It would appear I was premature in reporting the pending demise of the General.....much like Mark Twain....the reports of his pending demise were exaggerated.


https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lt-Col-Hal-Moore/59545011275

[The Old Fat One]

SASless,

If you have a strong stomach, I recommend "Nam" by Mark Baker. It is the most in-your-face account of the war's brutality that I've yet read. And if you are looking for a grunts account of the war, this is also the book for you. Be warned...it is not an easy read.

[SASless]

I will look for it......but this is the one that got to me. I passed through Camp Zama after being wounded.....so I can connect to what I saw there. I was very lucky...extremely lucky....blessed even.....not so, way too many I saw there.

About thirty years later at Johns Hopkin's delivering a Burn Patient while flying EMS......I helped the Medical Crew push the Patient into the facility and we were directed straight to the "Tub Room".

As we turned into the Tub Room....my Crew noted my countenance was not as it should be and asked if I was okay. I was not.....and there was no one being treated when we entered the room. The mere sight of the Tubs was all it took to bring back memories I wish I do not have.

I know what Hell is like....I have seen it here on Earth. Even as only a witness to other's real torment....you carry those sights and sounds with you forever.

365 Days: Ronald J. Glasser: 9780807615270: Amazon.com: Books

[racedo]

I know what Hell is like....

Yeah but you not going there

[SASless]

My Sainted Mother would argue with that forecast!:ouch:

[Lonewolf_50]

Got to meet Joe Galloway and Lt Gen Moore back in the 90's.
On a book tour, but also on a tour to visit with officers in various places, and teach them a thing or two about how we in uniform relate to and with the press. They opened my eyes.

Both are fine men.

Joe is from Refugio, Texas (Nolan Ryan's home town, FWIW) and occasionally returns to southern Texas to speak at various colleges and universities.

He is a very outspoken and blunt critic of governments, and high command. He reserved a special cup of bile for Donald Rumsfeld due to a lot of what went down in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

I hope he makes another pass soon, I'd like to talk with him again.

[SASless]

Joe is also an Obama supporter.....of all things!

[racedo]

Joe is also an Obama supporter.....of all things!

You'll not meet him in the afterlife so....................:)

[SASless]

Joe has earned the Right to think and say whatever he wishes.....there were no non-combatants on LZ X-Ray. Gathering at "Fiddlers Green" with a bunch of Troopers is going to be an interesting time when it happens......no time soon I hope!

[500N]

"Joe has earned the Right to think and say whatever he wishes.....their were no non-combatants on LZ X-Ray."

SaSless

Agree with you on this :ok:

[Samuel]

Apart from Moore and Plumley, you had Joe Galloway, Rick Rescorla
Ed Freeman and Bruce Crandall and from memory a couple of others who were decorated in that battle who went on and applied the lessons learned.

Rick Rescorla, a Brit, was killed helping people escape in the Twin Towers.

[racedo]

Joe is also an Obama supporter.....of all things!

Thought about it later.............is he a Democrat or just Obama supporter?

In a sense that his politics will support whatever candidate is Democrat rather than just Obama.

[SASless]

No idea but have heard he got miffed with Rumsfeld and that bunch over events in Iraq and Afghanistan......but no matter his political beliefs are his alone.

I might disagree with him re Obama for sure....but that is what is great about this country....freedom to think how we want....even if in some cases the other folks are dead wrong.;)

[racedo]

No idea but have heard he got miffed with Rumsfeld and that bunch over events in Iraq and Afghanistan......but no matter his political beliefs are his alone.

I might disagree with him re Obama for sure....but that is what is great about this country....freedom to think how we want....even if in some cases the other folks are dead wrong.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Saying nothing