Flood aid to the civil community

[Oldsarbouy]

This could also apply to the Rotorhead forum but I'm amazed that there is no military helicopter assistance to communities cut off by the recent floods especially in the Southwest. To see food supplies being ferried in by very small boats along flooded roads where any manner of obstruction could be hidden strikes me as positively dangerous. I recall back in the blizzards of 1978 when two Whirlwinds from Chivenor supplied a big chunk of the Southwest with neccessities ( including supplies of beer and spirits to a beleagured pub) and here we are many years later with much more capable helos but none in sight. If there are such missions happening then surely a PR opportunity is being missed as well.

[iRaven]

I believe they're busy searching for idiots that think it funny to go larking about in waves and taking pictures on harbour walls...:ugh:

The unintended consequence of the UK's "celebrity" culture!

iRaven

[Hangarshuffle]

MPGS were escorting the civvies through the base the other day. Civvies in the village of Yeovilton cut off from the rest of snivilization by the water are allowed access in and out via the base.
You have a point mind. Could the Air Arm even still do it? Its only the first day back from main leave, haven't seen or heard much activity today. Also its a stinker of a night/day/week/year so far.
Do people really need help anyway? No ones sat on their roofs here.

[YellaRednGrey]

When was the last time you saw a Yellow or Grey Seaking mentioned in the media? I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's a negative PR policy so that the great unwashed don't notice when they eventually fade away and are replaced by a civilian option. This is not a whine about civvy SAR and the benefits thereof so lets not start down that route again. I just think would be good for the Mil SAR guys and gals to get just recognition for the fantastic job they do. Once upon a time the ARCC staffs used to brief the media on a daily basis; that stopped some time ago :*

[Wycombe]

Is there not a Wokka always on call for "civil emergencies" in north Hants?

If so, I guess someone also needs to decide what constitutes a "civil emergency"?

[Hangarshuffle]

It might have been good PR, but perhaps the emergency services/utilities coped well enough anyway?

[Lima Juliet]

7 hours ago in the Plymouth Herald looking for the missing teenager:

A host of agencies have been involved in the vast operation over the weekend, including Plymouth and Ashburton's Dartmoor Search and Rescue Teams, Plymouth RNLI, helicopter crews from RAF Chivenor and RNAS Culdrose, the Coastguard as well as Devon and Somerset Fire Service's specialist search and rescue teams from Camels Head and Exeter stations.

Read more: Villagers search for teen missing in storm | Plymouth Herald (http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Villagers-search-teen-missing-storm/story-20404293-detail/story.html#ixzz2pf7QsOQy)

:ok:

[Evalu8ter]

Wycombe,
Invariably yes - as was the case with Boscastle. However, leave the rescue and winching stuff to the professionals; the Chinook comes into its own if you needed to rebuild flood defences in a hurry or you have a large number of people isolated and in need of evacuation/resupply.

[Tiger_mate]

I think the Chinook involved in the recovery* of bits and bobs various after the Air India B747 crashed off Eire many years ago proved that they too can hold their own when the need is there.

* All with winch and Crewman & Winch Operator.

MACP = Budget v PR
No fatalities = No problems

You cannot have a PM spouting off about the billions still to be saved, and targeting benefits on the same day that the SH & SAR forces go on tour delivering hampers and straw bales. It is a lose - lose situation.

[AGS Man]

I was back in UK over the Xmas period and on Friday 3rd there was a fair amount of Helicopter activity in the Taunton area. No idea why but my house was buzzed by a fairly low Sea King with AEW bubble deployed. Not complaining tho!

[Evalu8ter]

AGS Man,
You can't be far away - the Bagger was over my house too!

TM,
Yes, Chinook crews were involved in Air India. However, the crews used to do a lot more winching training back then (and there were not live people on the line in that incident :( ) - plus it's not been much of a priority recently. In the FI if a long range SAR job came up we'd plan to take a SAR rearcrew specialist with us. Plus, the Chinook door is not optimised for recovering the winchman/pax - the SK door is far better.

[Shackman]

Re the Air India crash - yes the 'duty' Chinook was airborne from Odiham two hours after the incident (getting the winch on and overload tanks in took the time), but we weren't the first; an ad hoc crew grabbed from the mess/quarters was off very quickly . However, the greater part of the work was done by the RN and RAF Sea Kings; even the CH 53s with AAR Hercs from Woodbridge appeared on Day 2.

As far as 'Aid to the Civil Community' goes, I have noticed that over the years it has become less and less as the Treasury have turned the screws on those very communities requiring assistance. It seems to need higher and higher approval, and then the community requiring help is charged ever more exorbitant sums (to cover the costs of running the military it seems), Most of the crews would like to be involved, and the aircraft are there, but the arcane rules on costs (after all it is now a budget run system!) seem to prevent it.

[sevenscars]

I too am disappointed that we haven't utilised the rotary wing assets we have available. I believe it boils down to the way JHC funds the SH fleet. It would appear unless it is for the benefit of the Army then Chinooks aren't utilised. Everyone is incredibly risk averse these days which as Chinook aircrew saddens me.

[NutLoose]

Of course we wouldn't have half of the flooding problems if developers in the rush to make money didn't build on flood plains, that's the root cause of most of the problems, and whilst I applaud the rush to bolster town flood defences, all that does is shifts it all downstream to become someone elses problem. It's about time the Government looked at making it a requirement if building on a flood plain to produce housing along the lines of the Dutch where the whole house floats up.

How It Works (http://www.buoyantfoundation.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6&Itemid=4)

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/64431000/jpg/_64431748_house5.jpg

[ninja-lewis]

Didn't the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 come about because the MOD was fed up with repeatedly bailing out Other Government Departments and Local Authorities who couldn't be bothered to do their jobs properly because "there's always the MOD"?

Now that the Main Effort is not as busy as in recent past, should the MOD really complain that the rest of government have finally got themselves organised properly?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

If I remember rightly, Aid to The Civil Authority is provided on request; and charged for. Yer don't get owt fer nowt these days. I think SAR was/is a standalone commitment, as are the Mountain Rescue teams.

[Hangarshuffle]

Just thinking aloud, what are we talking about? Dropping food off? Bales of hay for shepherds in upland areas? You are talking about roping in entire squadrons and their support staff. Ok down the SW we are top heavy with CU,VLN go on Odiham, Middle Wallop....but elsewhere? SE England etc. There s nothing there to help.
The armed forces now couldn't do it at short notice. The capability isn't really there, or the set up. Training hasn't been made for it (and I mean proper contingencies training for sustained ops, say a 2 month spell of current or worse weather).
Its not the military's problem to sort out anyway.

[Wholigan]

From the BBC just for interest:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=549462025148945

But please, for goodness sake, nobody point out that the RN has difficulty with knowing its cardinal points. It would be rude and his mates would give him stick!! :E

[Courtney Mil]

From my experience with firends in the Rescue Helo world, their reaction to any call out was always, "this is what we're here for. And every rescue is excellent training as well as saving lives." No problem on that front.

But now it may be a matter of managing expectations. When it's civvi, things may be different. For the rescue of civvies and mil folk...

"RAF Marham here. We have a crew that's ejected into the North Sea. We need a rescue helicopter to recover them asap."

"Good evening, Sir. Your call is important to us, please hold while I connect you to the next avaiable operator."

<The first 4 minutes of Motzart's 40th plays> interspersed with promotions for SERCO Rescue Insurance, GlobalNet Personal Location Beacons and the new iPhone QuickDial Recovery System.

"Good evening, SERCO Rescue Services, how may I help you."

"Er, we have two aircrew in the North Sea."

"Thank you, Sir, is that in the Southern, Central or Northern Sector?"

"What are the boundaries"

"All that information is available on our website at www.winchyouout.com."

"I'll give your their position on lat and long."

"I'm sorry, Sir, what did you say?"

"I'll give you their position."

"I need to know which sector they're in."

"I don't know which sector, but I can give you their exact location. We're talking to the crew on the PLBs."

"We don't have that address, Sir. Which sector.."

"Look, I need you to launch a helicopter to rescue them and I can tell you exactly where to go."

"There's no need to take that tone, Sir. What sort of helicopter do you require? Is it for cargo lift, passengers or emergency transfer."

"What? The crew of a Tornado has ejected into the North Sea and we need you to recover them!"

"Oh, I see, Sir. Thank you. Have you pre-notified this operation?"

"What?"

"Did you complete a ER2134 prior to this event?"

"How could I. We didn't know this was going to happen."

"Ah, I see. So you haven't pre-arranged this. Do you have an account with us?"

"How could I have.. Look, I JUST NEED A H E L I C O P T E R."

"Certainly, Sir. What model do you require? You will find a comprehensive list of models available for hire on our website at..."

"A rescue helicopter, NOW!"

"What is you account number."

"I don't know. I am OC Marham and my crew needs to be rescued."

"Sir, if you are not the account holder, I'm afraid I can't discuss this with you. Is the account holder there?"

"They will die if you don't recover them now."

"Sir, SERCO Rescue cannot accept liability for loss of life or personal property in these circumstances."

"Can I have a helicopter or not?"

"We offer a wide range of heli.."

"Sod you. I'll call the Coast Guard."

"Thank you for your call this evening. If we can interest you in any of our other products, plea..."

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Very good CM and sadly, I suspect only too true!

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

"Hello, is that the Coastguard. This is OC Marham and I need a helicopter now to rescue a downed Tornado crew"
"That you for calling SERCO Coastguard Services All of our operatives are busy...............................................

[awblain]

They have operatives… and can pronounce coastguard… it could be worse.

[Jimlad1]

Military Aid to civil power is a very complex gig which can range from free through to very expensive bills. The reason costs are recovered is two fold - firstly to prevent local councils planning on calling out the military at their beck and call (which also supports local plant hire companies and the like) in order to provide a general pool of manpower.
Secondly cost recovery occurs when stores are expended and people taken off tasks in order to spend money to buy new ones. E.g. we wrote off several hundred sleeping bags a few years ago in some floods for the council to distribute - given they were bought for the military not the civilian population, its not unreasonable to charge the council to buy replacements.
The whole area is a complex shade of grey as there are times when charges wont be made, and other times when partial costs are recouped (e.g. fuel and T&S but not salaries), and other times full costs (e.g. salary and everything spent). The aim is to make authorities plan sensibly for civil contingencies and not rely on the white knight round the corner .

Its also worth noting that there is no charge associated with imminent risk to life, but strangely some of the requests like 'can the military come and build our adventure playground during the week' or 'can the military come and help us dig our cars out of a muddy car park at a civvy show' (both genuine requests) would be met with either a polite 'no chance' or 'yes and to get our services would cost £X).

For those with insomnia, try reading JDP2-02, a worthy read.

[strangesteve]

The Government is very quick to send off the military to foreign counties but not help its own back here in the UK, the same goes for all the Aid Agencies, may be it doesn't massage there egoes enough.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Jimlad1. You explained that very well. A lesson in modern day Government reality. :ok:

Sadly, it's uphill like this that the great unwashed need to recognise the value of the "MILITARY". Sod what's done to defend their interests in a rather beastly world.

[Evalu8ter]

Jimlad,
Well put. We were often getting requests from various agencies for Chinook support. IIRC these requests were scrutinised in terms of PR value, crew training and to ensure that an equivalent civilian company was not being cut out of a fee-paying job. Clearly, in the case of Chinook, there are no comparable heavy-lift machines so, often, it came down to PR or training value. Recent Ops and the demands on the airframes/crews have reduced the opportunities but it remains feasible eg meteor lift (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22246388) , flood defence repair (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-25280880) , and helping feed the animals (:E) in Northern Ireland (http://www.lzdzonline.co.uk/chinooks-provide-vital-support-to-snowbound-northern-ireland/).

[Firestorm]

Wholi you are a very naughty chap. It's a good job that Crabs are perfect!

[kintyred]

Many years ago I was conducting flood relief with the mighty Wokka when I was called in by the brigadier in charge of the operation and told that I would have to stop flying because the danger to life was over and that from now on it would cost £20000 per hour for the flying time. I had just refuelled and told him that we would continue until we reached minimas and that I would put the hours down to crew training (which was excellent value for us by the way). They got well over another 100 tons of sandbags in place as a result and definitely stopped about 500 homes being inundated.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

If anyone suffers from insomnia, JDP02 is always useful; https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/.../defenceconrtibution1.pdf‎
(https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDAQFjAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gov.uk%2Fgovernment%2Fuploads%2Fsystem %2Fuploads%2Fattachment_data%2Ffile%2F61965%2Fdefenceconrtib ution1.pdf&ei=9JDNUoeQM4mphAfTsIDgAg&usg=AFQjCNH3cquyQinhqbUbGdmg4gSEuUgm8A)
(https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDAQFjAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gov.uk%2Fgovernment%2Fuploads%2Fsystem %2Fuploads%2Fattachment_data%2Ffile%2F61965%2Fdefenceconrtib ution1.pdf&ei=9JDNUoeQM4mphAfTsIDgAg&usg=AFQjCNH3cquyQinhqbUbGdmg4gSEuUgm8A)
Ch 2, Sects I and VI may be of interest.


SECTION I – MILITARY AID TO THE CIVIL AUTHORITIES

Introduction

203. Military operations in the UK, under Military Task (MT) 2.1, are placed under the overarching title of MACA. This section examines the principles, procedures and essential features of providing military assistance.

204. MACA is sub-divided into Military Aid to other Government Departments (MAGD), Military Aid to the Civil Power (MACP) and Military Aid to the Civil Community (MACC). These operations are distinct from one another legally and politically, as well as in terms of military implications. More detailed information on MAGD, MACP and MACC is provided in Chapters 3, 4, and 5 respectively.



SECTION VI – FUNDING ARRANGEMENTS FOR MILITARY AID
TO THE CIVIL AUTHORITIES

General


266. For the reasons outlined above, MACA activity is, with a few specific exceptions, not funded within the Ministry of Defence (MOD) budget and is, therefore, conducted on a repayment basis. Treasury rules dictate that Government Departments charge for services that do not form part of their funded tasks. No matter how valid a request for assistance may appear, Defence funds are granted for Defence purposes. If the cost is not applicable to Defence, then it represents an improper use of resources and must be recovered. 79

[teeteringhead]

Courtney

your scarily likely "dit" reminds me of an occasion a few years back, when there was a fire late one night in the Officers' Mess at a secret Shropshire helicopter base.

A bright and alert baby pilot(ess) discovered it, and dialled 2222 or whatever it was, hoping to get the Fire Section, or the Plods or something useful.

Got "Dumfries Doris" the "MoD Operator" - somewhere in Scotland anyway....

....."Hello, help - there's a fire in the top floor of the OM, RAF S.S.H.B."

"Can you tell me the building number please"

"It's the s0ddin' Officers' Mess!!" :ugh:

"Do you have the building number please ......"

Puts 'phone down and runs to guardroom...........

.... all ends happily (except for some tropical fish, who got smoke bubbled through their water :()

[NutLoose]

That would be the "other" CFS then, Centralised Fire Section :cool:

[dragartist]

Teeteringhead,
I know this refers to the Civil Ambulance service but relates in a way to your building number sketch.

Young Air Cadet died as a result. Ambulance was called to RAF Brampton but the post code plugged into the Ambulance Sat nav was RAF Wyton. All the post for Brampton came in through Wyton as the main administrative centre for 3 geographicaly seperate RAF Stations.

so much for 2222

Such a tragic outcome.

Drag

[Hangarshuffle]

OldSARGuy, you were pretty well bang on the money then as the OP a few weeks back. And GBZ offered the reason why nothing has been done to help people in the Somerset Levels - seems it all came down to money.
Pretty awful TV last night watching that lady baling out of her farm as the water rose - she seemed to have to do it all on her own. Couldn't help but cross my mind what a fat lot of good the civil authorities had been to her - least someone could have done was help her retreat (as it happened it looked like the farming community stuck together and did it themselves).


Thing is, as a servicemen you get paid anyway - surely wage costs are static.
There is a massive combined RN/RM/Army base at Yeovilton not even 20 miles away, can not more be done to help, really?

[Hangarshuffle]

Somerset Levels flooding crisis: scores evacuated as heavy rain overwhelms flood defences in village of Moorland - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/weather/10623476/Somerset-Levels-flooding-crisis-scores-evacuated-as-heavy-rain-overwhelms-flood-defences-in-village-of-Moorland.html)


I actually feel sorry for the Royal Marines in this video. It seems like a half arsed effort, with a small lorry pitching up with a small section of junior rank RM applying a few sandbags in the bleak dead of night in heavy rain.


What a fry up. Granted only God almighty can stop the rain, but was that it, Britain's sole military effort?


Those Marines are in entirely the wrong rig by the way - if anyone is reading this that gives a fig, they should have some sort of skin protection, apparently there is some pretty nasty bacteria lurking now in the water.

[NutLoose]

I'm expecting a letter to the Times any day now from a certain Lt. Cdr. Lester May pontificating on how the RAF Helicopter assets should be instantly transferred to the Fleet Air Arm as they are the helicopter specialists in dealing with over water operations, and as such would have had the Somerset levels problem sorted weeks ago if they had been in charge of the airborne side of things.....

:E

[CoffmanStarter]

Not yet Nutty :E

But he's still taking pot shots :rolleyes:

Lester May Twitter Feed (https://mobile.twitter.com/NavySpeak)

PS. Check out who he follows ... there's a name we all know and love :8

[Evalu8ter]

...shame there's not a RN Air Station 10 minutes flying time from Langport with a load of RN helicopters on it.....oh...tells me they've not been asked. Yeovs is very good at helping the community when it can.

[Whenurhappy]

Very good, bit you forgot the all-important:

'Before we can proceed I need to take you through some security questions...'

[Hangarshuffle]

Face saving on the half of civil authorities? Don't want to look needy? If the RM are helping does it not mean requests for aid have been made? Would have thought the military would have gone in hard to help, to be honest.

[Lima Juliet]

Hangarshuffle

You've hit it squarely on the head. There is legislation called the Civil Continguencies Act 2004 which states that Local Authorities have to make provision for emergencies. So, if the Local Authorities call in the military then, unless it is SAR or MRT (that are designated Category 1 Responders and funded), they will have failed to discharge the duties legally required of them.

I hear that the Services' Regional Liaison Officers were told to go to the Command set up to deal with the floods, only to be effectively rejected by the leaders as they didn't want to be seen to be failing.

That is why the military wasn't used in their 'back up role' for the recent fire strikes and why they are unlikely to be used this weekend (and there are lots of us on standby to cover just in case they do call us).

If they call us it is an admission of failure and all the political and future public-funding issues that would go with it. The Local Authorities would have to pay for us and lose future funding lines from central government - a lose-lose situation. Plus, I am sure that the British Army are chomping at the bit to get involved to justify themselves for SDSR15.

This is not a Con-Dem issue as it was just as bad under the Bliar and Broon.

All in my opinion of course :ok:

LJ

[Pontius Navigator]

I accept why the civil authorities don't want to call in MACA but when we see footage of a few Jollies with wet sand bags that is appalling PR.

It ought to be like Fresco or the foot and Mouth solution. Call in the military but let the military decide what to do and don't shackle them with 'ROE'.

"Stop village X from being flooded" Let the military either reject the task or get the RE to throw up a berm, bridges, ferry or whatever. Good training and good PR.

An example was the RM using landing craft to get cars across the river.

[TheWizard]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bf5ikgRCIAAGgGV.jpg:large

[500N]

""Stop village X from being flooded" Let the military either reject the task or get the RE to throw up a berm, bridges, ferry or whatever. Good training and good PR.

An example was the RM using landing craft to get cars across the river."


Agree.

Def good, real life training (if they weren't tasked with anything else but barrack duty) and great PR.

[500N]

Great photo of the sub :ok:

What do they put on the Jolly Roger flag ?

Cars
Busses
Boats

:O

[Pontius Navigator]

500N, a whale to represent the corpulent CEO of the Environmental Agency.

[Heathrow Harry]

Young Ms HH points out that the key to the problem lies in the words

"Floodplain"

"Water Meadow"

"Somerset Levels"

if you choose to live in such places you are accepting the risk - same as if I lived on San Andreas Fault Blvd.

[500N]

Hh

And the word that is not mentioned, cheap !

But people forget they paid less when the floods come.

[Pontius Navigator]

500/HH,

Whilst it is true many of these people are not recent incomers, of course some are, and they accept that some flooding will occur.

Now whether they are correct in stating that the undredged river had less capacity to accept water and drain it way (someone said it had less capacity to store water) and therefore exacerbated the problem or whether it is entirely due to unprecedent heavy rainfalls I don't know.

As I write not a few dozen miles from Somerset I am also surrounded by less newsworthy floods but floods none the less. Many minor roads are closed and the Thames is well spread over the meadows.

One solution employed by a wealthy householder has been to have a berm erected all around his house and garden.

Rather than dredge rivers and hope, villagers would be better advised in moating the whole village. Another observer said that farmers should spend their farm subsidies on flood protection and not Caribbean and Skiing holidays.

In Lincolnshire our local prep school is sustained not by Service brats but many farmers, as evidenced by the 4x4s at chucking out time, who enjoy their winter safari holidays and exotic summer ones.

[500N]

PN

OK, this level of long term flooding might be unprecedented in recent times but every river I have lived hear (River Wye at Hereford, River ? Nene ? at Oundle near Peterborough) or been associated with in Staffordshire and surrounding counties when swan catching flooded on a regular basis.

And both the Nene and the Wye had flood plains that flooded and
most people didn't build on them, although water came right up close
to the backs of the houses in Oundle, a line existed that wasn't crossed.

[Martin the Martian]

I think it's a bit unfair to say people choose to live in these areas. A lot of people live there because their parents did, and will not have moved away because they probably can't afford to.

I will agree that continuing to build homes on flood plains is just stupid, and that the head of the Environment Agency was lucky not to be lynched or drowned when he paid a visit this week.

This is the same Environment Agency that, seemingly, wouldn't back work to reinforce a certain section of the main railway line along the South Devon coast until a full impact study into the effect of the works on the local bird life was carried out. I'll leave you to guess which section of the railway line we're talking about here.

Yes, that's the one.

[500N]

I did read that bit in the DM about waiting to do a bird impact.


I couldn't see any of the birds mentioned being that affected by a bit of works on a railway wall but as per usual, they describe the birds like Avocet and Black Tailed Godwits as "rare" :rolleyes:. I suppose they are rare if you are looking in the wrong place for them.

[Pontius Navigator]

This is the same Environment Agency that, seemingly, wouldn't back work to reinforce a certain section of the main railway line along the South Devon coast until a full impact study into the effect of the works on the local bird life was carried out. I'll leave you to guess which section of the railway line we're talking about here.

Yes, that's the one.

This is a typical piece of media selective reporting.

It is not birds per se but the EU Habitats Directive that requires that an environmental impact statement must be prepared before work can be undertaken in places such as SSSI, SAC, etc etc. No matter how important vital routine maintenance work is, work cannot be started until the EIS has been written, submitted to Natural England, the Environmental Agency, Uncle Tob Cobleigh and all other stakeholders for approval.

To single out the EA and birds is disingenuous.

I used to manage a 10,000 acre SSSI. Our first job was to get English Nature on-side. Initially the female in charge was a right PITA and needed seeing to. Her junior sidekick could occasionally be seen to roll his eyes. Once she left and we got him on-side we had an easy ride for the next 8 years.

[Martin the Martian]

Selective reporting or not, the fact remains that an important element of infrastructure which should never have been allowed to deteriorate was allowed to do so because it appears to all concerned parties that wildlife is considered to be as important, if not more so, than people and the economy of this part of the country.

Well, chickens are birds too, and it would appear that they are coming home to roost.

[Hangarshuffle]

Apparently the Commodore stopped all leave Friday pm and ordered the Air Station to commence giving aid to the local community. Culdrose personnel were out helping wherever they could. Didn't see much about it in the media, but then I'm now hundreds of miles away (*Thank God).
Likewise sailors from HMS Sultan (Portsmouth) arrived over the weekend in Somerset and gave aid, seemed to be mostly building dams etc with sandbags - this was covered on Sky News and seemed greatly appreciated.
Well done the armed forces.


Just read yr post PN and yes agree when you are on the spot looking after these places its amazing how many people you need to not upset. I to had a major SSI and it was also an ex WW2 airfield. It was a bleak old spot, still used extensively by the RN but to keep on side we had English Nature, National Trust, various water utility people, farmers and their cows, Debut Services, MOD of course, a glider club, Shelterbox, is it English Heritage? Cornwall County Council Planners, the local Parish Council, the Coastguard and a few more, I now happily forget who they all were. Ah yes RSPB. Civil Police.(all of these good people all want an input on your work and all want a say!).

[Pontius Navigator]

Shelterbox,

Ah, Shelterbox. I presume they leased a hangar for storage.

English Heritage and English Nature, at VAST expense (letter heads, office signs etc) merged to become Natural England. In the process we lost our single POC at EN and gained someone ex-EH who knew loads about buildings and sod all about bombing of wild life.

The birds weren't disturbed and we had some wonderful rare crustaceans inhabiting the benign environment inside the targets.

[500N]

PN
"and sod all about bombing of wild life.

"The birds weren't disturbed"

I have heard it said that the birds getting up from roosting and flying around
because of a FJ bombing run "disturbs the birds" from roosting :rolleyes:
(Ref Wanfleet or Snettisham or wherever that bombing target is on the Wash).

They (the Greenies) fail to realize that Hawks have exactly the same effect on roosting waders and a lot more often !

[BEagle]

Perhaps our £Bn of overseas aid might now be diverted to Somerset and the South West, rather than some corrupt dictator's bank account?

And maybe someone will decide that a reliable rail service to the South West is more deserving of funding than the utterly wasteful 'HS2' nonsense?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

While some of you chaps are forming an orderly queue to kick the Environment Agency, this might be worth a read; Don't blame the Environment Agency for floods. Blame the spending rules | Environment | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/feb/09/flooding-chris-smith-speaks-out)

t's important, though, to realise a fundamental constraint on us. It's not only the overall allocation for flood defence work that limits what we can do. There is also a limit on the amount we can contribute to any individual scheme, determined by a benefit-to-cost rule imposed on us by the Treasury.

Take, for example, the highly visible issue of the dredging of the rivers on the Somerset Levels.

Last year, after the 2012 floods, we recognised the local view that taking silt out of the two main rivers would help to carry water away faster after a flood.

The Environment Agency put £400,000 on the table to help with that work – the maximum amount the Treasury rules allowed us to do. The additional funds from other sources that would be needed didn't come in.

So when politicians start saying it's Environment Agency advice or decisions that are to blame, they need to realise that it's in fact government rules – laid down by successive governments, Labour and Tory – that are at the heart of the problem.

Ah yes; Treasury rules. That would be the same Treaury that wouldn't release funds to put wiring in warships that didn't gas people should it catch fire.

[Hangarshuffle]

Someone said its 500 million pounds in overseas aid, and aid for UK environmental defence is now such a hot tattie that yes that might happen, it may now be diverted solely to the UK (surely that's a political no brainer, Labour Party)?


The rail link to the SW is over for the foreseeable 10 years IMHO - even the rain and disruption I last experienced in 2012 was showing the way here. Somerset - rail line blocked by water (rain). Devon - the now washed away coastal bit screwed me over even then. Cornwall - crashed car got on the line, utterly third world rail link west of Plymouth-Yeovil to Camborne took 8 hours. IK Brunel would have recognised every station such was the lack of 20th Century investment.


Shelterbox - nice chaps to a man and women but see what happens when the tail (Shelterbox) begins to wag the dog (me) on MOD land.


Apologies if you've tuned in to read about aeroplanes and things.

[Pontius Navigator]

500N, true. The nesting birds were inside the danger area - no people - but clear of the targets - no bombs. But the birds were stupid and their nests were often washed away by the tides.

I watch Geese around one of the targets. They would all take-off when the bomber came in. They were back on the ground within less than a minute.

Up at Tain the sheep were just a canny. They would graze around the targets until the range opened and then vacate the target area for the day.

At Donna Nook the seals liked nothing better than to snuggle up to a Mum sized 500lb bomb. Again bombs - no people.

[thing]

Initially the female in charge was a right PITA and needed seeing to.

PN! Didn't know you had it in you. I hope you rose to the occasion.

[Think Defence]

Like many things in the complex area I think there can be a lot of confusion, especially on funding.

There is something called the Bellwin Scheme that makes provision for the Local Authority to effectively 'claim back' from central government the costs incurred in emergency response. Included in the definition of emergency response is costs incurred from MACA

The reality is that Local Authorities and other Category 1 Responders will have a range of statutory requirements, many in fact. Of these will be their obligations under CCA 2004 but sitting right alongside will be vulnerable adults, social care, education and housing etc.

How do you prioritise?

The problem is a very simple one, in a world of competing demands and a funding landscape that basically says, if **** happens you can claim it all back (well, nearly), decisions are made, priorities assessed and civil resilience ends up somewhere that is not top of the list.

They are not being lazy or incompetent, simply making choices.

If Category 1 Responders call the MoD it is not an admission of failure in any way shape or form, it is simply and admission that the event has overwhelmed their ability to respond, the level of ability decided in conjunction with requirements for housing, looking after old people and everything else I mentioned. The Act does not say you must have ten million sandbags at 5 minutes notic eto move but lays down a planning framework and certain 'must haves and must do's'. Within this framework is space to allocate priority.

CCA 2004 was not introduced because the MoD were fed up with being used and abused, it was simply because the existing complex patchwork of legislation was not fit for purpose and the overall response to the foot and mouth, fuel protests and flooding in and around the early 2000's was frankly, woeful.

It therefore sought to put in place statutory obligations to drive behaviour, organisations in general only having to do what they have to do.

This resulted in a great deal of coordination and capability improvements in the whole responder community which meant, for example, the response to the 7/7 attacks was much smoother than it might have been only a few years earlier. It also resulted in a reduced reliance on the MoD, and rightly so, especially for pools of general unskilled or semi skilled labour.

Then for some inexplicable reason, after nearly half a decade of the MoD and other responders agreeing that the MoD should only be used for certain specialist functions or as an absolute last resort the Conservatives in opposition starting banging on about 'homeland resilience' and as this translated itself into SDSR 2010 the MoD reasserted its role in the civil resilience space.

Without of course, any planning or idea about what that actually meant, what impact undoing 6 years of solid progress by the civilian responders would have and how that would apply to future revisions of CCA 2004.

So for the current confusion, where I agree that a small group of RM dropping ready filled sandbags into place whilst contractors look on seems like tokenism at best, might be an idea to look somewhere other than the local authority for blame.

As others have said, a very complex subject.

A couple of links to add to those already posted

The Bellwin Scheme (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/5943/2160230.pdf)

CCA 2004 - Guidance (http://www.trafford.gov.uk/residents/community/community-safety/emergencies/docs/civil-contingencies-act-guide.pdf)

CCA 2004 - The Act Itself (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/36/contents)

Just to close this one off

Avon and Somerset Risk Register (http://www.avonandsomersetprepared.org/risk_register/)

Last updated 2011

[Hangarshuffle]

UK floods: Iraq war veteran Maj Gen Patrick Sanders leads military flood response - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/weather/10634894/UK-floods-Iraq-war-veteran-Maj-Gen-Patrick-Sanders-leads-military-flood-response.html)


Politically savvy. Why not a logistical expert though?

[Madbob]

Think Defence - good informative post, thank you.

One question though. In the USA whenever there is a major disaster, natural or otherwise (9/11) the response by the state government invariably is met quickly with a Federal offer of additional support. Including mobilisation of the National Guard and other Federal assets.

I appreciate we do things differently here but surely an SOP response might be to mobilise the TA in the same way that the National Guard is called out not least of all to protect the homes and properties that have been evacuated and to deter looting.

Likewise, central government can step in to offer additional support to local authorities with release of "reserve" funds. Central govt does this all the time when there is a natural disaster as after the Philippines cyclone or after the earthquake in Haiti. It's time now for central govt to step in with additional resources and to co-ordinate a national response. In the private sector the electricity companies mobilise out-of-area linesmen (even from Northern Ireland) to help rapidly repair damaged lines in England. Why is it that local authorities not affected by recent floods can't send help to those that are?

MB