Logging acro hours - not completed PPL

[mp111]

Just to get some feedback from other instructors, can one use hours flown in high performance/ complex A/C rated aircraft such as a pitts/ extra be counted towards an EASA PPL hours? Instructor is qualified with CPL. have a fair few hours acro time so was thinking of using the hours- Slight detour from flying cessnas..

Thanks MP.

[taybird]

Under EASA you cannot train for an Aerobatics Rating until you have 40 hours post PPL issue. Therefore any aerobatics instruction prior to PPL issue does not count, and indeed the time may not be counted toward the hours requirement for the licence issue.

This seems ridiculous, but is unfortunately the way of EASA...

[BEagle]

Under EASA you cannot train for an Aerobatics Rating until you have 40 hours post PPL issue.

Actually, the (stupid rule) is that a pilot cannot apply for an aerobatic rating until he/she has gained 40 hrs PIC since licence issue.

Efforts are being made to change this absurdity - it makes no sense whatsoever.

[taybird]

BEagle - true, thanks!

[Whopity]

Instructor is qualified with CPLDoes he have an Instructor rating? Then the question is, is the instruction he is giving you conducted at an ATO or registered facility; if not then it cannot be counted towards an EASA PPL

[mp111]

@Whopity- Yes they have an instructor rating, only being conducted in their personal aircraft- although aims to set it up as a ATO within this year - which was also another reason it would stop me logging the hours.

I knew about the 40 hr after issue of license problem for the Aerobatic Rating- I believe in the same rated A/C too? which means 40 hours Pitts/ Extra ect. time and not cessna 152 time.. expensive..

Although, lets say if for example 1hr was circuits and no aero's involved would you still be able to log it under non Aerobatic Rating training, and under Tail Wheel training? Although i understand TW Rating is after issue of license too?


MP.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Ab initio flight training is a crawl, walk, run, progression. I have both a Canadian aeroplane instructor rating and an aerobatic instructor rating. The last PPL I completed was on an aerobatic airplane but there was no aerobatic instruction conducted until after my student completed his PPL training.

My advice would be to concentrate on the PPL basics before working on any advanced training. Learning to be a better pilot is a life long effort, enjoy the journey....

[Whopity]

I agree with BPFs advice however; within the 45 hours PPL training you can technically fit in 10 hours of undefined training, that could include circuits, stall spin awareness training, upset training etc in an appropriate aircraft. It must however be conducted at an ATO/RF. It will not solve the 40 hour issue for Aeros but you could fly an Annex II aerobatic aircrfat with no requirement for am aerobatic rating! I believe in the same rated A/C too? No, just 40 hours flight time after licence issue.

[BEagle]

No, just 40 hours flight time after licence issue.

Nope - even more restrictive than that. You could have 500 hr of dual aerobatic training, but unless you've achieved 40 hrs PIC since licence issue, the €urocrats won't allow you to apply for the Aerobatic Rating.

My advice would be to concentrate on the PPL basics before working on any advanced training.

Such as being able to add elapsed time to actual time in order to calculate an ETA, perhaps?

[dubbleyew eight]

aerobatics training before the ppl is finished is just a rort perpetrated by flying schools.
other rorts include offering formation endorsements.

the belief is that once the licence is issued the school wont see the student again so they milk them for all they are worth.

to the original poster. you arent being smart by wanting this.
get your PPL first. then all that you do is a permanent addon to your basic licence.
the way you are doing it is just frittering money away for nothing.

...but I'm sure you wont be told.

[Whopity]

40 hrs PIC since licence issueThe only reference to PIC is for 120 launches in sail planes!FCL.800 Aerobatic rating
(a) Holders of a pilot licence for aeroplanes, TMG or sailplanes shall only undertake aerobatic flights when they hold the appropriate rating.
(b) Applicants for an aerobatic rating shall have completed:
(1) at least 40 hours of flight time or, in the case of sailplanes, 120 launches as PIC in the appropriate aircraft category, completed after the issue of the licence; Maybe bad wording again but a rule is a rule.
Such as being able to add elapsed timeNot mentioned in this topic!

The privileges of the aerobatic rating shall be limited to the aircraft category in which the flight instruction was completed. Category means aeroplane, powered-lift, helicopter, airship, sailplane, free balloon etc most of which are not aerobatic.

[mp111]

My original post says feeback about including acro hours providing it was from a qual instructor ect, not do you agree that im wasting my time or money by running before i can walk by flying aerobatic aircraft pre PPL. However i'm sure everyone has their own opinions. Also to note I have more cessna hours than aero's time.

Though agree with BPF, i've been flying for a number of years which has been a long and enjoyable process.

But no D eight- probably not. Having also worked in a couple flying schools i know it's all about getting as much money out of student's therefore went somewhere where i wouldn't be fleeced.

[BEagle]

Whopity, this sloppy piece of €urobabble has been pointed out to the €urocrats as being ambiguous. They have since decided that it actually means 40 hrs PIC since licence issue for aeroplane pilots or 120 launches as PIC since licence issue for sailplane pilots....:rolleyes:

In other words '40 hours of flight time (or, in the case of sailplanes, 120 launches) as PIC in the appropriate aircraft category, completed after the issue of the licence.'
Anyway, attempts are being made to get rid of these pointless prerequisites.

[Big Pistons Forever]

BEagle

Thanks for the cheap shot. The UK way is not the only way to safely and efficiently conduct a flight and readers who end up flying in North America will experience a different and less anal approach to radio communications.

BTW I had the misfortune to be assigned a club check out flight to a visiting UK PPL last year. The pilot spent the whole flight chasing the airspeed and altitude and final approach (C172) was flown at 75 kts, he did the usual UK stupid practice of turning off the carb heat at 300 heat (temp/dewpoint was 6/3 Deg C) and the landing was nose wheel first. I took over after the first massive bounce :ugh:.

But his radio work was absolutely word for word out of the CAP. He was great at flying the microphone too bad nobody taught him how to fly the airplane :rolleyes:

The above was thread drift so my apologies to the OP. However I think my comment about the undesirability of doing aerobatics during the PPL is relevant to the discussion.

Personally I think a bit of PIC after your PPL is a very good idea before taking any advanced instruction. You need to go out and get comfortable making all the decisions yourself before moving to the next level

Finally, I highly recommend some aerobatic instruction as not only is it a lot of fun, but it gives you the skill and knowledge to control your aeroplane no matter what attitude or orientation it is in.

[Level Attitude]

PPL Training has to be conducted by an FI under the auspices of an
ATO/RF approved to conduct PPL Training.

mp111 has not said whether his Instructor was an FI or a CRI, but he has
stated (in Post 6) that he is not part of an ATO - therefore none of these
hours can be used for the purpose of gaining a PPL.

EASA words Instructor privileges as those for training for a Licence, Rating, etc.
No rating or Licence is being trained for (as initial training must be through
an ATO) - so it could be argued that no Instruction was being given at all,
just fun Passenger flights.

I do not hold this view - provided an "Appropriate" Instructor Certificate
is held.

In this case the Instructor must have the privilege to teach
aerobatics/for the EASA Aerobatic Rating (even though such training
cannot actually be used towards Rating issue).
mp111 do they? If not you cannot Log PUT time at all.

[Level Attitude]

Personally I think a bit of PIC after your PPL is a very good idea
before taking any advanced instructionAgree. But I would have said before exercising the "advanced privileges"
as PIC, not necessarily before commencing any training.

For aeros 40 hours is way too long (in my opinion), I would think around
10 hours.
The question is: Can we rely on peoples' common sense or is legislation
required?

[dobbin1]

Some people only learn to fly in order to do aerobatics. Making them stooge around straight and level for 40 hours after passing their PPL is just nuts.

[3 Point]

Nothing says they have to "stooge around straight and level" while building up the 40 hours. What's wrong with undertaking aerobatics training (including solo) while building up the hours?? The EASA requirement is to have 40 hours P1 post licencing before applying for the aeros rating!!

Alternatively just start your aerobatic career on a non EASA type and fly that till you have the 40 hours!

All a bit daft really!

[Tinstaafl]

Australia used to have a two step PPL (and, I think, is returning to it. Yay!). First step was a Restricted PPL. It was a PPL in all respects except for navigational privileges ie it was issued after a flight test of general handling & circuits in the training area & aerodrome, respectively. The only limitation was that you couldn't exercise PPL PIC privileges outside the training area. An RPPL could have any endorsements & ratings added except those that involved navigation eg aeros, formation, retractable etc but not NVFR or an IR

After the RPPL was gained then the pilot would commence nav training which culminated in an unrestricted PPL after a navigation based flight test.

It was a great system for those who were only interested in local flying, aeros or whatever, or those who wanted or needed a break in their training.

[dubbleyew eight]

tinstafl it was also great for those who ran out of money.

in comparison to the restricted pilots licence the GFPT has to be one of the stupidest ideas ever foisted on pilots.

[sapperkenno]

You must decide what you want to do... either mess about doing acro, which will no doubt improve your handling, and possibly be more fun than the slog of learning to fly.

Or just get your licence out of the way, with all the "boring" lessons and ground exams. Then do the acro stuff once you have a licence.

I'd suggest getting your PPL first before you do anything else, as screwing about in a Pitts or Extra, although fun and with a "proper" instructor, won't count towards anything worthwhile if it's not done at an ATO/RF.

Only speaking from experience as I've seen people before who basically can't be arsed pulling their finger out and getting their licence, but would rather just turn up and do some circuits or mess about for an hour, but won't get their exams done and progress without a boot up their Harris.