Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub

[piesupper]

Twitter reports the police chopper has crashed onto the roof of the Clutha pub on Clydeside.

Pic to follow.

[piesupper]

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BaRbyHNIQAAfvqT.jpg


The Clutha is a single storey flat-roofed building right on the Clyde. About 1 mile upstream from the usual pad opposite the BBC.
THere is a fairly big car park less than 100yds away so Im presuming the pilot had little control left at impact.

[DHC4]

Near the clyde back of the St enochs center

[flying bizzie]

Just hearing via social media that a helicopter has crashed onto the roof of a pub in Glasgow. No further details at the moment.

[staplefordheli]

Sky RSS news feed also showing it as multiple trapped in The Clutha Pub by the Clyde

[piesupper]

Strathclyde police have little luck with helicopters. This is the second one they have lost.
Still no word on casualties but the Clutha is a popular music pub. Almost definitely packed out at this time on a Friday night.
Doesn't sound good at all.

[22 Degree Halo]

Am hearing of "bodies" inside pub.

[Geoffersincornwall]

Make that three

[staplefordheli]

pics showing it embedded in the roof which has partially collapsed, witnesses said it out of control rotating and making backfiring noises like a car :rolleyes:, prior to crash Emergency services landing pad close to scene

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BaRjtZ_IMAAZBDV.jpg

[22 Degree Halo]

https://twitter.com/crushtina/status/406558500807262208/photo/1/large

[markyboy]

Yes this is the third loss of a Strathclyde Police operated helicopter albeit it has now been transferred to the newly formed Police Scotland and as such it has been used all over Scotland now rather than just the Greater Glasgow area. It is operated from a nearby helipad situated to the west of the city centre.

[helihub]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BaRliBtIEAAKD-z.jpg

edited to change image as PortVale posted same photo 1 minute earlier to me

[22 Degree Halo]

https://twitter.com/Janney_h/status/406561940165894144/photo/1/large

[AvNews]

pWU51uAhhT4

[markyboy]

Off the top of my head the first loss was a collision many years ago in fog with a block of flats in the southside of Glasgow. The second one was a few years ago in South Ayrshire where it made a forced landing in a field. There were fatalities with the first one, luckily everyone survived the second one albeit seriously injured.

[DHC4]

http://50.6.106.226/picit/1385766176.677.iPicit.jpg

[Davef68]

Off the top of my head the first loss was a collision many years ago in fog with a block of flats in the southside of Glasgow. The second one was a few years ago in South Ayrshire where it made a forced landing in a field. There were fatalities with the first one, luckily everyone survived the second one albeit seriously injured.


The first wasn't a Police helicopter per se, but a Jet Ranger leased whilst the Force Bo105 was in maintenance.

[DHC4]

Another photo from the scene
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BaRmabqIAAA_UAt.jpg:large

[Savoia]

The first wasn't a Police helicopter per se, but a Jet Ranger leased whilst the Force Bo105 was in maintenance.

Are you referring to the accident involving G-EYEI getting caught in a snowstorm in January 1990?

[Love_joy]

My thoughts are with those involved, especially those simply out enjoying the evening.

Information filtering through AV8 also...
AV8|News - BREAKING Helicopter crash reported in Glasgow (http://av8-news.com/news/aircraft/general/1518-breaking-helicopter-crash-reported-in-glasgow#sthash.aCGIbDg0.dpbs)

[Davef68]

Are you referring to the accident involving G-EYEI getting caught in a snowstorm in January 1990?


yes, didn't have time to look out the details, it wasn't actually on lease, but the second back up when G-SPOL was out of use.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Bell%20206B%20II,%20G-EYEI%2005-90.pdf

[Paracab]

Sky news (!) suggesting that the aircraft may have landed on the roof which subsequently collapsed under it's weight.

Utter speculation but consistent with lack of post crash fire. The holes certainly lined up for some poor souls tonight.

[G-CPTN]

Eyewitnesses speaking on the Beeb (R5) describe it falling from 500 feet misfiring and spinning and rotors not turning.

Edited to add:- No fuel fire . . .

.

[C.C.C.]

Just watched a news flash on TV.

I was the duty Helimed 05 pilot the night G-SPAU did not return.

[elro]

Latest reports from survivors is that the machine didn't actually crash it landed on the roof hard then roof collapsed. :yuk:

[Paracab]

Andy Dixon, ex RAF, is currently hanging himself on the BBC. Cringeworthy doesn't get close.

[Wiggins61]

Don't think so. Very little rotor speed. Blade tips still in tact.

[G-CPTN]

Police Press Conference due within the next few minutes, apparently.

[Technet101]

Looking at the pictures it looks like the rotor blades were still connected and the ones in the pictures show no rotational damage possibly supporting the view that they were stationary on impact ? Thoughts.

[betty swallox]

BBC News - Police helicopter crash: 'Multiple injuries' at The Clutha pub in Glasgow (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-25163045)

[Technet101]

The fire chief has just confirmed that there are trapped victims still in the building.

[MightyGem]

Just seen the Police statement. Still no word on casualties, which can't be good. :(

SASless
In view of the likelihood of fatalities here, your comment is a little bit tactless dont you think ?
He's OK. Been there, seen it and done it.

[NutLoose]

Yes, from what I have heard the casualties are the crew, everyone else ok.. Not good :(

[betty swallox]

Not good at all.

[Geoffersincornwall]

....and spouting complete tosh on BBC. I've never heard such complete rubbish - worse even than dearly departed Jim - may he rest in peace.

I beg the Beeb not to use 'experts' in this way. They should know by now that anyone willing to spout in such detail so soon after an air accident is NOT AN EXPERT.

This expert wasn't even an aviator.

Please BBC don't do this.

G :ugh:

This refers to the 0400 broadcast

[whoateallthepies]

There is a half-baked idiot being given air time by the BBC news. It is possibly the worst post-crash drivel and speculation I have ever heard!

Does anyone know who this "Ex-aviation firefighter" is? And tell him to button it?

[Hughesy]

We just saw that news brief in PNG.
That guy sounded like a complete muppet!!
"disengages the rotors...and just before arriving at the ground he would reengage the rotors in what I beleive is called a autoroation"

far out! :ugh:

Hope the crew and civi's get out all ok.

[sitigeltfel]

A comment from someone inside the pub at the time...

Grace MacLean was inside the bar at the time of the crash, and said there was no big bang or explosion at first, and just some smoke.
She said: “The band were laughing and we were all joking that the band had made the roof come down.
"They carried on playing and then it started to come down more and someone started screaming and then the whole pub just filled with dust. You couldn't see anything, you couldn't breathe.
Maybe a "Weegie" can answer this. Was the pub formerly known as the Clutha Vaults? I seem to remember it from years ago when staying at the Holiday Inn across the street

[Glasgow_Flyer]

Yes Sitigeltfel, it still is (although known as the Clutha).

[jolihokistix]

Some of the reports mention rescue crews in the basement. Would that be where the original 'vaults' were, I wonder?

[22 Degree Halo]

Used to drink in the Clutha Vaults years ago. Always a packed pub (even at 11am on a Tuesday morning:} )

Still no word on fatalities but I see all 3 of Glasgow's main hospitals have taken people in relation to the crash.:suspect:

[onetrack]

News media in Australia are reporting a number of fatalities - at least 3, with multiple numbers of injured.

Police helicopter crashes in Glasgow pub, fatalities confirmed - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-30/helicopter-crashes-into-pub-in-glasgow-scotland/5126716)

Three feared dead in Glasgow chopper crash (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/2013/11/30/10/46/helicopter-crashes-into-glasgow-pub)

[CharlieOneSix]

Why on earth do the BBC use such people as Chris Yates for comments on aviation incidents. When interviewed this morning he said that the blade visible sticking out of the roof was the helicopter's tail rotor! On a 135t2!!!!!:ugh:

[AvNews]

At least six people have died and 32 have been injured after a police helicopter crashed into a pub in Glasgow, Sky sources say.

Glasgow Helicopter Crash: At Least Six Dead (http://news.sky.com/story/1175697/glasgow-helicopter-crash-at-least-six-dead)

[Trim Stab]

What's this got to do with Mil Aviation

Well there is a fair amount of cross-over in Police Aviation. Most police helicopter pilots are former AAC.

[Stu B]

How long might it take for rotors to stop turning after a reasonable successful autorotative touchdown? Account on radio from a bar occupants was something to the effect of (sorry I did not note the exact words) "the band stopping playing in response to some event, the audience joking that "the band had brought the roof down", but occupants not seeing it as a major event, *the band then re-starting playing* and then the major building collapse with smoke/dust, etc". If the rotors had been at a very low energy state at the moment of impact it seems perhaps surprising that the impact was not severe enough to trigger an immediate building collapse, or at least cause a situation where the folk inside the bar immediately saw an urgent need to get out?

[katismo]

Stu, wondering why they autorotate. In my experience with ec135, there is no need to autorotate if one engine got a problem. There could be something else or more going on. I am sure the investigators will find a detailed reason for this accident.

Sad news.

[md 600 driver]

Just seen Chris Yates (aviation analyst )on TV says awaiting the black box to determine what happened ????

[Grenville Fortescue]

Stu, wondering why they autorotate. In my experience with ec135, there is no need to autorotate if one engine got a problem.


Twins still require autorotational capability, fuel related issues being just one example which could affect continued powered flight but there are numerous additional scenarios which may force a twin into autorotation.

[Oldlae]

Sad to hear of another helicopter accident.

I understood one eye-witness to say that "the rotors weren't spinning". This suggests that it was not autorotating, which throws suspicion on the main gearbox.

[steveo67]

Interesting report from Editor of Scottish Sun who witnessed the descent. Can't help but think this could have been a whole lot worse but for a fairly hard landing followed very shortly after by a roof collapse. That junction is well covered by CCTV so I've no doubt the events will be well documented.

Gordon Smart, editor of the Sun's Scottish edition, saw the crash from a multi-storey car park nearby.

He told Sky News: "I thought it was a plane that was going to crash. I looked up at the sky and I could see the helicopter falling, tumbling ... and then there was an eerie silence for the last part of the fall.

"But the thing that was disturbing and shocking was there was no explosion. I couldn't understand why a helicopter would fall from that height and not explode. To see the angle, the speed and the trajectory of the fall ... it was a horrific sight."

Glasgow Helicopter Crash: At Least Six Dead (http://news.sky.com/story/1175697/glasgow-helicopter-crash-at-least-six-dead)

[Tankertrashnav]

I think initially the roof took the weight and then collapsed after a 'successful' emergency landing.




It does seem particularly unfortunate that if the aircraft was out of control it crashed onto a single storey, flat-roofed building (although Glasgow does abound with pubs of this construction). Does seem to suggest that it might well have been a last minute choice for an emergency landing. But, like a lot of those spouting on tv, what the hell do I know?

[Lon More]

Press briefing scheduled round 1000 local.

[scotbill]

One of the more impressive witnesses spoke of the helicopter dropping out of the sky - therefore not under control.
Is it true there was no smell of fuel? And why no fire - compared to that recent tragic incident in London?

[jymil]

If there was no post-crash fire, then maybe there was not much fuel left in the tanks ? Just my 2 cents of unsubstantiated speculation.

[Shackman]

Did notice on the one brief shot of the Fenestron that there appeared to be no rotational damage to the blades/tips, as with the visible main rotor.

[Stu B]

Possibly - but anioher scenario could have been fenestron drive/shaft failure

[Oldlae]

I have seen the latest TV pictures showing the tail boom and fenestron, the break up indicates to me a very heavy impact on the roof.

[Lon More]

Sky tv reports efforts seem to be scaling back from a rescue operation to a recovery operation.

[AvNews]

Official statement by Scottish Police downgraded earlier report of fatalities (initially cited as being six by Sky News) to one person.

[HeliComparator]

The damage doesn't seem consistent with the rotors being stationary prior to impact. That would have resulted in "brick mode" and no relatively big chunks of recognisable structure.

More likely I think an emergency landing on the roof (maybe auto, maybe not) as the street was probably full of people and it's pretty hard to deliberately land on people. Then rotors stopped or nearly so. Then the roof under the skids collapsed, with the tail boom getting folded up as the bit of roof under it hadn't collapsed. Running out of fuel seems unlikely, more likely a yaw control problem or the like.

[Heathrow Harry]

really bad but at least there was no fire- maybe shutoff before the impact??

[Mechta]

Mick Stability and Heli Comparator appear to have the most plausible explanations given the evidence visible so far.

[Old Age Pilot]

If there was no post-crash fire, then maybe there was not much fuel left in the tanks ? Just my 2 cents of unsubstantiated speculation. Why does everybody assume no fire equals no fuel?!

I have seen accidents with no fire and full fuel, and an airframe completely consumed by fire after impact with very little fuel.

Note: There is ALWAYS fuel of some quantity!

[AtomKraft]

There are other, better, places to land very near to this pub.

Must have been very hard pushed for time to choose this location.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

It never surprises me to see the amount of nonsense that some people type on a public forum. You make your lack if knowledge quite obvious.

[20milesout]

Press release by Bond (http://www.bondaviationgroup.com/media/press-story?story=3305):

Major incident - Glasgow

(http://www.bondaviationgroup.com/) 30-Nov-2013

Bond Air Services can confirm that a police service helicopter was involved in an accident yesterday evening in Glasgow city centre.

The police have declared a major incident after the Eurocopter EC135 T2 - with a crew of three consisting of two police officers and a pilot - came down on the roof of a pub in Stockwell Street at 10.25pm.

Bond is working with Police Scotland and the emergency services who responded immediately and remain at the scene at the present time. No further details are available at this stage.

Our thoughts are with those who have been affected by this tragic incident.

[jemax]

Attached link to detail pictures of site and recovery effort.

BBC News - In pictures: Glasgow pub helicopter crash (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25162604)

[tbtstt]

It never surprises me to see the amount of nonsense that some people type on a public forum. You make your lack if knowledge quite obvious.
Surpassed only by the tripe sprouted by the "experts" on the BBC news coverage.

[Rocchi]

Have stopped watching the news as facts have dried up and we're getting speculation now. Will have to wait for official reports now.

[MYvol]

Actually one reason for posting comments is to learn. If you don't post you may not learn.

Thanks for the detail on fuel tanks.

[HeliComparator]

It never fails to amaze me how much time some people spend trawling through internet forums looking for something to complain about, so that they can feel morally superior etc. It's simple, if you don't want speculation, don't read this thread until the AAIB report is out.

[Mechta]

HeliComparator :D

[skadi]

A double engine failure due to fuel starvation is also not very reasonable on the 135. Beside the LOW FUEL Warning, which gives you at least 10min, both supplytanks are different in size, so one donk quits earlier in case of low fuel to give a little chance for SE landing.

[PFR]

Sean Maffett speaking sensibly on BBC World News right now - which is refreshing..

[gordon field]

+1 for SM, first Aviation Expert I have seen for some time who talked sense.

[Wetbulb]

Yes, was impressed with Sean Maffett.

For what it's worth (and this may of course not be accurate), one of the police on site this morning told me that prior to the accident, the 135 had been heading east along the river, rather than west on an approach to the pad.

[madflyer26]

Folks,
I found a post on Facebook confirming from a relative that the pilot ex military had perished in the accident. The name was published but out of respect I am withholding it.

[BARKINGMAD]

Yates just been on Beeb radio 4 telling us how the pilot may have skilfully shut off the fuel to the engines, thereby reducing the fire risk!

Mmmmmm, rapid conclusion jump there then?

To those who believe no post-impact fire equals little or no fuel, l ask you to look at or recall the Kegworth wreckage pictures and think again?

[bondu]

According to the ANO 2009, Schedule 4, para5, any a/c over 2730kg should/must have equipment as specified in Scale SS, meaning either SS1 or SS3. As the EC135 is listed as having an all up of over 2800kg, should it not have an integrated FDR/CVR? Have the rules changed since the 2009 edition of the ANO with regard to the weights?
And he is totally aware of the EC135s extremely good safety record, a fact he has made known to Sky, BBC and STV.
bondu

[dunnarunna]

135 originally certified at 2720kg thus exempt from FDR despite mtow increasing with newer variants. Same for the A109.

[Fortyodd2]

Bondu,
Google Official Record Series 4 on the CAA Website and check out numbers 988 & 989.

Those truly in the know....................know.

[bondu]

Forty odd,

Just done as you suggested.
I defer to your superior knowledge! As an AS332L/EC225 driver, I've had a FDR/CVR for many years. I haven't flown the 135, so my apologies.
However, a question then. Should helicopters operating for police and EMS agencies have FDRs/CVRs?

[Technet101]

In my opinion all service aircraft should have FDRs fitted as they work in built up and city enviroments usually at low altitude.

[huntnhound]

It is absolutely right that the AAIB will carry out a full investigation into this terrible event, and it is further likely that such an investigation will take some considerable time. Only then we will know exactly what happened. Five minute speculators on this forum are only as useless as those in the media that "report".
I would like to extend my sympathies to my former colleagues.

[AvNews]

Wiki page now up and running.

2013 Glasgow helicopter crash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Glasgow_helicopter_crash)

[The Sultan]

Bondu,

Bell built in a data recorder into each of the displays on the 429. As long as all displays do not burn (unlikely on a Bell) the data is recoverable. The data mapped is equivalent to ED-112 type recorders used on the big boys, except at a slower rate of one sample every 1/2 second. The 429 also has a fully compliant ED-112 data bus with data up to 8 times a second which feeds an optional modern CV/FDR.

[RomeoTangoFoxtrotMike]

Speculatdion is clearly the way forward, after all Im told its a rumour network, so dignity and respect can be put to one side in the name of speculation.

Why do you think we have to put "dignity and respect" to one side if we speculate ? It's possible to do so in a perfectly dignified manner. There has already been some illuminating comments from informed folks (e.g. skadi, Fortyodd2 and others) which has contributed to shared knowledge.

If you don't want to benefit from this enlightenment, or think that you might see something you don't like, then feel free to *not* browse to this page. However, telling the rest of us, who do wish to benefit from informed speculation, that we're not allowed to because *you* don't want to read it, isn't really on... :hmm:

[22 Degree Halo]

8 dead, 14 serious :(

[HeliEng]

BBC have just confirmed 3 bodies found within the helicopter... :-(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25165894

[tacr2man]

"Be careful not to criticise anyone for speculating, as the moderator seems to be handy at snipping out folk who suggest its not good practice....


Speculation is clearly the way forward, after all Im told its a rumour network, so dignity and respect can be put to one side in the name of speculation.


Wonder how long this post lasts then ?"

You seem to have a vast depth of knowledge about the practices an this forum for someone with 6 posts :rolleyes:

[bondu]

Sultan,

Thanks for info on The 429.

I understand that some 135s do have FDRs fitted - the newer model P2+ has the AR Combi 204C fitted and some T2s have something called a CPDS fitted, which collect some data streams and has a recording facility.

It looks as though last nights machine may not have either system fitted, but we should wait for the AAIB to confirm that.

[Fortyodd2]

Bondu,
CPDS = Central Panel Display System - comprising a VEMD, (Vehicle Engine Monitoring Display), and a CAD, (Caution Advisory Display).

Can I also thank John Gleeson for injecting some much needed first hand knowledge into Sky News instead of the their usual armchair expert guesswork.

[Spanish Waltzer]

Very sad day for all affected.

Have other 135s been grounded?

Not speculating, just asking.

[CharlieOneSix]

Do Police helicopters downlink video/sound at all times to their control room or do they only do that when on a tasking? Just thinking there could possibly be a lot of useful information to the AAIB there.

[AvNews]

Aviation expert David Learmount said the aircraft was a "very sophisticated" twin-engine helicopter which could have flown with one working engine.

"If the pilot had had any control at all he would've aimed it away from a building," he said.

"The fact that he was not able to aim it away from the building tells us a great deal."

He said even if both engines had failed, the helicopter would have been able to glide, using a method called "auto-rotation".

"This helicopter was unable to do that because it came down much faster than it would've done had the pilot been able to glide it," he said,

"So something happened. Something happened very suddenly and then the pilot either had no control at all or had very little control."

BBC News - Glasgow helicopter crash: What do we know about the aircraft? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-25166921)

[HS125]

Do Police helicopters downlink video/sound at all times to their control room or do they only do that when on a tasking? Just thinking there could possibly be a lot of useful information to the AAIB there.

My dad was a Deputy Chief Fire Officer; I remember him reviewing footage of a school fire from Cheshire's Islander (G-PASV) and remarking how it would have made it possible to save the building - The police got an amazing amount of funding compared with the Fire Service; I can't imagine them not downlinking information almost 20 years later.

If I recall correctly, the MD900 and 902 had a port on the engine/transmission displays form which it was possible to recover an amazing amount of information?! Not an FDR per-se but a very very useful tool. It's been so long I can't remember what it's called but I miss that aircraft daily!!

[DIBO]

it came down much faster than it would've done had the pilot been able to glide itfrom witness reports inside the pub, it seems to have been a 2 stage event, with the heli ending up the roof with more control than just gravity, followed shortly after by the wooden roof collapsing under the weight. So providing these witness reports are factual, some level of auto-rotation control was still possible. Pure gravity would have smashed right through the ceiling.

[Armchair_Ace]

staplefordheli,:rolleyes: Rolling eyes at an eye-witness report. Were you there?
All: This is a public forum and non-flyers are just as entitled to comment as much as some of the "expert-never put a foot wrong- know-it-all" pilots on here. There are some extremely well written comments on this site that are a pleasure to read & then there are the patronising, sarcastic, condescending & downright rude smart-a55es who, quite frankly, just show themselves up.

[zorab64]

As someone who's expecting to fly one of these, in this role, tomorrow, I remain confident that this airframe is one of the best for this task, if flown & maintained properly, unless your luck really has run out . . . which has happened in the past. Valid speculation can be valuable for those who may feel nervous about getting back in the saddle, and there are a number of pointers from eye-witnesses, and the photos, which should help to reassure others - the following are nothing else but observations, with a little speculation at the end:

1. Photos show the better part of two whole MR blades, and a smaller end of one other, intact over some length. The two protruding blades appear close to, but less than, 90deg apart. Having seen photos of a 135 that rolled over under power some years ago, the carbon fibre blade spars shred themselves completely.

2. The fenestron appears mostly intact, if twisted, and in conjunction with MRBs would seem to show a roll to the left to inverted after/during landing - certainly IF the reports of a landing, followed by a roof collapse, are accurate,

3. One might expect an aircraft with a complete power loss and "stopped" rotors (as some have reported) to hit the roof so hard as to go straight through, but might also expect the impact to create a lot more distortion of the lighter parts, & tail boom specifically.

4. If reports of stopped rotors were accurate, it could be argued that the deadweight of the airframe, and the C of G with heavy transmission on top might have started to turn the aircraft inverted before impact?

5. A number of consecutive TR blades appear to be in place - the photo isn't taken at an angle to allow a view of the rest.

6. Whilst UK Police 135's are not required to be, & aren't, fitted with a CVR, some historical data is downloadable from the FADECs, so AAIB may at least be able to find out what the engines were doing in the later moments of flight.

Personal opinion only, is that it might appear there was some control which reduced the rate of descent before impact, hence the relatively minor distortion of the rear empenage, and the reports of an impact, with time for people in the pub to comment about the band, followed by the roof caving in. Of course there is no indication, apart from the tragic result recently announced, of the state of the main body of the aircraft, which has had a good track-record in other, fairly high impact, EC135 accidents. The lack of any reported emergency by the pilot might speak more volumes than anything else, certainly so close to base. That worst case scenario of something sudden, as intimated by David Learmount, may have to be considered.

It a very sad day when an event such as this occurs, tragic for those who fly these machines (who are aware of the risks but train hard to mitigate them) and doubly so for the innocent Friday night public who we spend our time assisting & protecting. All sympathies & prayers are with those affected.

At the end of the day, however, the AAIB are world-respected experts in their field and will get to the bottom of what happened, with the willing assistance of the manufacturers. The reason aviation, in almost every area, is as safe as it is today is because we listen, read & learn about these terrible events which understandably, but sadly, make more headlines than the road fatalities that spoil so many more lives. Any failing of the aircraft will surely be addressed as quickly as possible, as has happened in the past, and we'll learn and adjust the way we operate. The 135 remains a state of the art machine IMHO, which has looked after me and my team very satisfactorily for many years. As I don't like complacency, however, I always keep a useful phrase in the back of my mind, from my early training:

"Aviation itself is not inherently dangerous but, to an even greater capacity than the sea, is very unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect."

[IB4138]

The :mad: at the BBC News are at it again.

They have shown a picture of the helicopter involved today, "AO" and said "a helicopter similar to this one".

Do these people not do their research or have brains before opening their mouths?

[G-CPTN]

the deadweight of the airframe, and the C of G with heavy transmission on top might have started to turn the aircraft inverted before impact?At least one eyewitness reported the aircraft tumbling end over end as it fell from altitude.

[SawMan]

Not a pilot here but a builder so I'm limiting my comments to that. It is not uncommon for a structure to fail in stages, especially when the initial stress has caused large-scale structural damage to adjacent stressed members. In this case just the reverberation from the band's amplified sound or from dancers in rhythm could have caused just enough vibratrion to make the rest of the structure fail as shear forces were aggravated or displaced parts shifted. And if wood was involved, it often delaminates relatively slowly as opposed to snapping in two, even without additional stress loading being applied. It could have been failing slowly even without any other aggravating input after the initial settling under the strain. Of course the structure was never designed to accept this load so it seems to have done very well and performed admirably and normally. Having nothing else to add that's it for me in this thread.

[LFT]

A local SBS user reported that his last contact was 22:21:49 at 725ft.

[staplefordheli]

Armchair_Ace
Patronising, sarcastic, condescending & downright rude
staplefordheli,:rolleyes: Rolling eyes at an eye-witness report. Were you there?
All: This is a public forum and non-flyers are just as entitled to comment as much as some of the "expert-never put a foot wrong- know-it-all" pilots on here. There are some extremely well written comments on this site that are a pleasure to read & then there are the patronising, sarcastic, condescending & downright rude smart-a55es who, quite frankly, just show themselves up

Not sure why you have singled out my post in particular which was one of the first on this thread as the event unfolded.

The emocon was more to do with the fact the media were using the witness reports of backfiring noise as being a misfiring and failing engine as the cause akin to a R44 or R22 with Lycoming Piston engine . Not a twin engine turboshaft. Flameouts can pop and bang but not like that unless the core of the turbine was breaking up. but that would still have left an active engine to run on save for damage to control components and hydraulics probably leading to a fire

It was more likely the noise described to have been a mechanical noise associated with parts of the main transmission breaking apart so It wasn't aimed at the ley witnesses in any way who wouldn't know if it was powered by turbine piston or even electric rare earth motors

As for some of the other comments on this thread, each to their own
There is place on here for everyone however outlandish their views after an accident such as this and you cannot stop some folks who may not agree with your views posting. However I dont agree with some being shot down by others for having those views

For now with the 3 crew confirmed dead along with members of the public I am just leaving it up to the AAIB who I have every confidence will expediently publish what they find

[arica]

the result seems to be similar to the 2008 crash of an ec135 of the Hungarian Air Ambulance - low rotor rpm in autorotation. The cause at that time could not be found out clearly - might have been a mismatch during emergency procedure after FADEC-induced engine out of one of the engines in low altitude.

[dmanton300]

Do Police helicopters downlink video/sound at all times to their control room or do they only do that when on a tasking? Just thinking there could possibly be a lot of useful information to the AAIB there.

In my experience as a PC dealing with the helicopter, the downlink is only used when selected, it doesn't operate at all times. There is an aerial that deploys below the aircraft (at least the MD902 my force had when I was in). This was left down upon landing several times causing damage and downtime for the downlink. FCR would normally request it's usage, it wasn't automatic.

[Lon More]

At least one eyewitness reported the aircraft tumbling end over end as it fell from altitude.

That would be the editor from the Sun on a nearby multi-storey car park?
Possibly in a flat spin?

[Lurker2500]

I am not a professional pilot by any stretch, but a long time lurker - over the years I've learned a lot of interesting stuff!

But I am a Glaswegian. The junction that the Clutha sits on is larger by some measure than the Clutha's roof, is relatively quiet at that time of night due to the bus lane and being relatively far away from the real nightlife.

A view of it is here (https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=clutha,+glasgow&ll=55.854481,-4.25021&spn=0.000587,0.001321&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&t=h&z=20). Would a pilot really choose to land on this roof if they had a choice in the matter? Moreover, the buildings in that block aren't exactly known for their structural integrity, which any local can vouch for.

But regardless I'm sure the AAIB will get to the bottom of it. This is a really sad event for the crew and the casualties on the ground - no one should have to go to work (or for a night out, for the matter) and not come back.

[ShyTorque]

Flameouts can pop and bang but not like that unless the core of the turbine was breaking up.

Don't forget that the turbine engines of a very rapidly yawing aircraft can suffer a compressor surge or stall, due to airflow disturbances across the intake. A symptom of which is a popping noise.

Obviously, part of the AAIB investigation will look at the whole picture and part of that will be to check the fenestron tail rotor drive.

[skadi]

Don't forget that the turbine engines of a very rapidly yawing aircraft can suffer a compressor surge or stall, due to airflow disturbances across the intake.

But the engine intakes on the 135 are way inside the airframe, so that I think a yaw movement would have nearly no influence.

[pitofrost]

In a force control room (FCR) close to me, the down link is only requested when on a task. The crew sometimes leave it on when transiting but not normally. The down link images are not recorded in the FCR either, recordings are stored on a hard drive in the aircraft itself. The microwave antenna is is hinged down below the skids when needed and needs to be raised for landing.

[John Farley]

zorab64

Thank you for your post.

Have a good day tomorrow

[Lonewolf_50]

This is a thought only, and has to do solely with reports of little damage to the main rotor blades in this accident:

If one pulls "early' on an autorotation, and ends up -- lo and behold -- above desired spot with a bit of extra altitude, would not the blades be mostly out of inertia as one makes contact with whatever is below one at the bottom?

That is one way to explain general lack of damage to main rotor blades, I think.

Please correct me if I am making a meal of that thought.

EDIT:

Question for clarification: is EC135 high inertia rotor system or low inertia?

[Rushed Approach]

Surely the idea that a chopper pilot would choose to land on the roof of a building when he could land on the ground, even a busy junction, is somewhat strange? Cars and pedestrians would be likely to have at least some chance of getting out of the way, whereas those in a building would not, not to mention the added danger to the crew if the roof gave way.

Also surely the C of G of this craft would mean it stays upright when the blades are seized?

[uksatcomuk]

A local SBS user reported that his last contact was 22:21:49 at 725ft.


Network shows last contact 75 feet 2224

[Armchair_Ace]

Thank you staplefordheli for taking the time to reply to my frustrated rant.
Your post on this thread about a dreadful accident, to be honest, really wound me up. To me it came across as "non-pilots, what do they know" & is an attitude that exists on & spoils this forum. Yours was simply the straw that broke the camel's back & I would have used any other had I come across them today. You seem to have a good knowledge of helicopter workings & your explanation of the bangs was very informative - much more useful than rolling eyes!

[RotorRPM]

zorab64, just curious as to your understanding of the fenestron being intact... There is a decent angle of the tail boom with horizontal stabilisers sticking up in the air, you can also see the fenestron hub with a few blades attached, no shroud or other blades remaining. My understanding would be it's not quite intact...

[Big Duke 6]

Judging from the google earth picture of the pub above, if he had to do an emergency landing at night while having a large work load the roof top might not be to dissimilar looking from the road or a small parking lot.
It's a flat felt roof, with no lights and it's low level right beside the junction.

[piesupper]

Further to Lurkers contribution, the Clutha building was originally a multi-storey that was partially demolished. This is seen in many places across the city where clearance has taken place leaving the ground-floor pub as the only remnant of a block of tenaments. Hence the walls are pretty substantial but the roof is much newer and flimsier than the apparent age of the building would suggest. No surprise that it couldn't hold a 3ton chopper even if an attempted autorotation had removed most of the energy.
Given the variety of more benign landing spots available - King St car park, the Briggait Broomielaw Stockwell St intersection, Clydeside Walkway and the Clyde itself, I'd go along with the supposition that the pilot flared out of the autorotation too early and landed on the pub, not the intersection.

Doesn't explain eyewitness statements about tumbling end over end though.

[S Jones]

A local SBS user reported that his last contact was 22:21:49 at 725ft. Network shows last contact 75 feet 2224

Am I the only one who's seeing that and thinking that equates to a descent of 650 feet in little over 2 seconds?
That seems a bit more (or a lot, actually) than just falling at autorotation speed.

[Wetbulb]

- Faster than normal descent.
- But slower than terminal velocity.

Vortex ring?

[Nemrytter]

S Jones, that's two minutes - not two seconds.
To travel so far in 2 seconds you'd need to have a descent rate of something like 19,000fpm. Far faster than freefall would give (assuming you're not descending to begin with).

[S Jones]

Nemrytter, Sorry, yes my mistake, you're right.

[787-1]

from witness reports inside the pub, it seems to have been a 2 stage event, with the heli ending up the roof with more control than just gravity, followed shortly after by the wooden roof collapsing under the weight. So providing these witness reports are factual, some level of auto-rotation control was still possible. Pure gravity would have smashed right through the ceiling.

If thats the case, wouldn't the crew survive ?
Sounds like a high impact/heavy landing causing structural damage to the roof which subsequently failed.

Personally I would expect to survive a 7-8ft drop whilst strapped in / plus roof below you.

[tartare]

The roof that the pilot landed on appears to be a flat structure from photos - am I right?
The reason I ask is that I wonder that given the darkness, would it have been immediately apparent from above that it was in fact a building and not just a dark open space.
Are NVGs used by pilots on this operation?
Power failure of some kind, rapid yaw, or pitch - possibly both, an attempt to regain control and rapidly look for somewhere to put the machine down?
What's the avoid curve for the EC135 T2?
I should add, I'm not inferring pilot error or blame in anyway.
It must have been nightmarish.

[MightyGem]

Is it just me, or is anyone else getting fed up with the way that the local population; ie, members of the public, the Fire Brigade, Chief Police officers, MPs and anyone else given the chance, are bigging themselves up over this in that giving the impression that: a) how they all got together to overcome this disaster, and b) people elsewhere wouldn't have been able to. :ugh:

Rant over, chill….

[staplefordheli]

Armchair_Ace
Tragedy & Emoticons
Thank you staplefordheli for taking the time to reply to my frustrated rant.
Your post on this thread about a dreadful accident, to be honest, really wound me up. To me it came across as "non-pilots, what do they know" & is an attitude that exists on & spoils this forum. Yours was simply the straw that broke the camel's back & I would have used any other had I come across them today. You seem to have a good knowledge of helicopter workings & your explanation of the bangs was very informative - much more useful than rolling eyes!

Ok point taken onboard

I think I should have perhaps explained rather than the emocon which was more aimed at those with a working knowledge of rotary AC or for that matter turbines and pistons

Bit akin to someone saying after a rail crash that the train driver appeared to have trouble steering if you know what I mean
Didn't want to be shot for being the messenger

[barry lloyd]

Is it just me, or is anyone else getting fed up with the way that the local population; ie, members of the public, the Fire Brigade, Chief Police officers, MPs and anyone else given the chance, are bigging themselves up over this in that giving the impression that: a) how they all got together to overcome this disaster, and b) people elsewhere wouldn't have been able to.


As the son of a fire officer, yes. My father attended many large fires and other incidents during his career, but generally didn't speak about it very much. No disrespect is intended to anyone involved in the rescue and recovery operation; we hear and see so much about drunkenness and its attendant problems outside many of the UK's pubs today and it's particularly reassuring to see people helping each other in such distressing times, but this constant 'bigging up' of those involved is becoming a little tiresome.

[S Jones]

MightyGem "Is it just me, or is anyone else getting fed up with the way that the local population; ie, members of the public, the Fire Brigade, Chief Police officers, MPs and anyone else given the chance, are bigging themselves up over this in that giving the impression that: a) how they all got together to overcome this disaster, and b) people elsewhere wouldn't have been able to.
Rant over, chill…. "

Hasn't bothered me. TBH it's heartening to know that most people there formed a human chain to rescue others, not knowing if the rest of the roof was going to cave in on them.

What did irk me was the dumb blonde Scottish female BBC reporter who spent most of this lunchtime drivelling. She'd run out of facts and was bottom-scraping for opinions. I half expected to see the landlord's dog being interviewed next. Overkill, get off the screen dear, my TV's starting to get your fizzog burnt into it.

Those people turn it into a freakshow. People died. Give us just the facts (I gave up correcting one paper from describing the fenestron in one photo as the EC135s "wheels"), and move on. Allow people to grieve.

[ShyTorque]

But the engine intakes on the 135 are way inside the airframe, so that I think a yaw movement would have nearly no influence.

I'd agree but we really don't know. I don't think it's something to be ruled out of hand, because it's not something that would normally be tested on any helicopter, for obvious reasons.

[jayteeto]

From 800ft at night, a low flat roof would easily be mistaken for a clear area. Flare and check height is equally difficult for an eol. You don't need to be that much in error to have a potentially fatal fall. All speculation from me, an ex police pilot with 7 years operating at night over a city. In my next 3 years flying an air ambulance I have discovered that minor bumps and falls can cause fatalities, life is so fickle, a simple wrong choice of seat in the bar decided people's fate.
This is a rumour network, some of us know 100% that certain contributors are talking real guff, however WE are speculating as well as them. More informed speculation, but still only opinion. Stop slagging people off for having an opinion. By all means correct errors.

[ShyTorque]

Surely the idea that a chopper pilot would choose to land on the roof of a building when he could land on the ground, even a busy junction, is somewhat strange? Cars and pedestrians would be likely to have at least some chance of getting out of the way, whereas those in a building would not, not to mention the added danger to the crew if the roof gave way.

Also surely the C of G of this craft would mean it stays upright when the blades are seized?

I believe (from one photo I saw) that there is an area of open ground, albeit not very large, immediately to the rear of the pub. It's possible that this dark area was chosen but the dark coloured roof was indistinguishable from the open ground until too late to avoid.

We really can have no idea how a "stopped rotor" EC135 would fall to earth. Again, no-one has yet volunteered to be the test pilot for this.

[East11]

@tartare

Lurker2500's google map link shows the aerial view and I bet from certain angles it would have looked just like road, esp at night.

Noticed some of the photos on the beeb showed bits of branch/tree on the roof of the pub, and again on the satellite view you can see trees on the adjacent plot, in fact growing out of the shell of the building.

Might give an idea of trajectory.

[NorthernChappie]

Is it just me, or is anyone else getting fed up with the way that the local population; ie, members of the public, the Fire Brigade, Chief Police officers, MPs and anyone else given the chance, are bigging themselves up over this in that giving the impression that: a) how they all got together to overcome this disaster, and b) people elsewhere wouldn't have been able to.

Rant over, chill….

Yes - and they were ALL supposed to be at St Andrews Night Ball tonight - last one before independence vote so it was a big night for them. Friday night put an end to that for the emergency services chiefs and should have done for anyone else with a sense of decency. Apart from Salmond of course who is no doubt hooching it up having left the nippie sweetie in charge.

I'm sickened by some of the rhetoric today from politicians - all SNP regrettably and I am not particularly political by nature. I agree that exactly the same response would have happened anywhere else whether Scotland or the wider world.

Most of my PPL is done at another heli emergency base and based on the professionalism I see from those folks, I have nothing but respect and profound sadness tonight for the crew.

[S Jones]

@Shy, there's a few spaces. Not sure how empty the car park to the north would have been though, going by the 120 customers in the bar.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/6643/lg6d.jpg

EDIT: added shot with pub unobscured.

[ShyTorque]

What's the avoid curve for the EC135 T2?

As a performance Class A, twin engined aircraft, we can rest assured that normal police operational flight scenarios are not near the parameters. Both deliberately so and by their very nature.

[zorab64]

lonewolf - your understanding of the implication is correct - i.e. most of the rotor inertia may have been "used" by the time of impact, hence very low rotor speed at the final stage.

Re inertia - most twin engine helicopters have low inertia rotor systems, as they're optimised for powered flight. As it's normal for such machines to stay powered in the event of a (very rare) single engine failure, the rotor systems will autorotate, but Nr tends to be a challenge to control (in a modern twin anyway). A single, such as B206, will have a rotor system that has a good deal of inertia should the (normally reliable) engine fail, and makes it relatively safe and easy to get into auto. I'm sure this debate has been debated & discussed in greater detail in rotorheads by experts such as Nick Lappos.

RotorRPM - to clarify, the tail rotor area, fin & horizontal stabilisers appear largely intact and a separate photo showing the fenestron itself, i.e. the fan, appeared mostly full of blades. I say "appeared" as I felt the angle was difficult to see if there were blades attached to the bit out of view.

[S Jones]

I seem to recall in the Pete Barnes accident in January, someone was able to plot his course.
Is anyone able to find out the route SP99 took, as that could give an indication of where they were trying to reach.

[Stu B]

Which direction was the aircraft approaching from? From that direction, would the nature of the building been obvious to the crew as being a busy bar, or perhaps apparently just an anonymous building with a flat roof, and more attractive as a landing point than a busy road - reports of groups of passers-by later helping with rescue suggests the street may have been quite busy.

Or, from the approach direction, would the path have had to pass over the bar to reach the apparently spacious crossroads, so that the aircraft may not have had enough energy to pass over the building to reach the junction (even by really milking the last of the energy form the rotor at the last moment to the point where flight could no longer be sustained?)

A very obstructed built-up area would be a very hostile environment to complete an engines-off landing even if full control was available and the crew may be unlikely to have the luxury of more than a "barely-suitable" option to try to get down into.

[Devil 49]

There are things besides a power failure that will put an aircraft down right now, even a Cat A capable twin.

[ShyTorque]

There are things besides a power failure that will put an aircraft down right now, even a Cat A capable twin.

I think most of us are aware of that. The avoid curve is probably completely irrelevant here.

[S Jones]

I'm having a hard time trying to convince myself this was the result of an autorotation. As someone else said, a 7-8ft drop from a roof you would expect to survive.

I'm just thinking the plotted course and height as shown re PB would indicate where this started from, and might shed more light on a cause.

I notice the police are now appealing for all video and audio recordings the public took of the scene before and after the incident.
BBC News - Glasgow helicopter crash: Police appeal for Clutha tragedy video (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25165894)

[jugofpropwash]

Looking at the overhead Google view someone posted - it appears the roof of the building is black, and there are trees. Could a stressed pilot in an emergency have taken a quick look below him and in the dark mistaken the roof for an empty parking lot? That would explain opting to land there, rather than the roadway.

[tartare]

Poor chap.
I imagine he would have had the briefest of moments to frantically look around and try to find what looked like an open space that didn't have cars houses or people in it.

[piesupper]

S Jones - Re the car park, as an irregular regular in the Clutha (maybe 1-3 gigs/month depending on who is playing), very few folk drive to/from the pub. At that time of night on a Friday the north end of the car park (nearest the yuppier venues round King St) would be have a few cars. No way have I seen that carpark ever be more than 25% full at night. There would be very few if any to the south. Plenty space to put down if the pilot had a choice.

As for the chopper course, I saw a report from a police source that it was eastbound along the river NOT heading west to the base.

[SASless]

Shy,

A couple of weeks ago while driving through Dunstable on my way to Newbury....the Plod were doing something that involved their helicopter.

The helicopter was hovering OGE at about 400 feet AGL....and did so for quite some time.

That would have put the aircraft into a very precarious position for several reasons....and is a normal Police Operation.

Now if we are talking routine patrol operations....done in a Twin at some weight that allows OEI flight back to base....then fair dinkum.

[jugofpropwash]

One post mentioned something about rescue workers in the basement. I would assume that if anything broke through the floor into the basement, it would have been the main (heaviest) part of the helicopter, so rather than a 7-8 foot drop, it could easily have been at least double that.

Further - something could have entered the cockpit - or, if they survived the initial "landing" relatively unscathed, they might have unbuckled and been starting to get out when it dropped.

[S Jones]

Thank you SASless. I was beginning to think I was the only one who had seen "questionable" activity by our helo here in Bedford.

[Spanish Waltzer]

I have not seen mention of any distress call being transmitted on either ATC or operational frequencies. This could imply that time from cause to effect was minimal and any likelihood that the pilot had time to choose his landing site, or mistake a dark roof for a car park as slim. Even if he was busy dealing with the failure(s) he had two crew members who are trained to assist with aircraft emergency handling.

I'm also intrigued that my previous post has gone unanswered regarding whether the type is being temporarily grounded, particularly as a number of current 135 drivers are posting. I assume the answer is, gratifyingly, no.

SW

[ShyTorque]

400 feet agl certainly wasn't a height we often operated at - in fact I can't recall why this would be needed on a day to day basis.

1200 feet was a good compromise for most jobs, especially where built up areas were concerned.

More importantly, is there any evidence to suggest this aircraft (I mean the one we're supposed to be discussing on this thread) was on task, hovering at 400 feet?

BTW, unless things have changed very much since I left the job, UK Police helicopters do not carry out "routine patrols".

[500 Fan]

On the issue of recorded on-board data, if the FLIR camera was turned on would it contain a recording of the crew's conversation for the duration of the period when the camera is on?

From my understanding of these police FLIR cameras, they record radio transmissions from the ground to air and vice versa and there isn't a facility to turn off the intercom system so that the air crew can converse in privacy. I'm not sure if "record" has to be selected for the FLIR camera to save all data (picture and sound) onto the video recording system. If it was recording, it could prove extremely useful in the investigation into this tragedy.

Police officers and helicopter pilots both carry out jobs that are regarded by the man in the street as being "out of the ordinary". Both get a view of the world that few get to see and both careers can be very interesting and rewarding. Unfortunately, both must also go to work each day knowing that if luck isn't with them they might not make it home that night. Sadly, that day has come for the crew of this helicopter and also for those on the ground.

500 Fan.

[steveo67]

From one of the local Glasgow forums - Speculation, but may give a picture of what it was up to prior to the accident.

'Will be a miracle of no one dies. Can't help but think it has run out of fuel trying to get back to SECC. A woman from Govanhill said it had been hovering over head with spotlight on railway line for quite a long time before incident.'

'I saw something on twitter during the day that a person was hit by a train on the Glasgow central line today, so it makes sense that the helicopter may have been doing something related to that incident.'

The junction itself is well served for CCTV but the police seem to now be appealing for video to be sent in which suggest it may have missed the incident.

The Sun Editor was probably on the Qparks car park roof. From memory that has no view to the South (Clyde) and limited views to the East (Cathedral blocks view towards Clutha) and West (Tenements) although it's slightly better to the East if he was at that end of roof. That suggests he probably observed it coming in from the North or North-East which implies a path across the large King street car park.

[SASless]

Hovering OGE in and of itself is not "questionable" and certainly was not the intent of my post to suggest it was. I was stating Police Operations like many other uses for Helicopters can place one in situations that add to the ordinary exposure to risk.

I am guessing at the height....and certainly would not consider what I saw being done as being careless or reckless in any way.

So Shy....if UK Plod do not perform "Routine Patrol"....what do they do? What was the mission the accident aircraft was performing when this tragedy occurred?

Would there be Radar Trace data to show heights/airspeeds and other useful data?

[nomorehelosforme]

Hopefully AAIB will find all this type of info, I know people have comments but with an incident as serious as this do we we need wild speculation and political comments!

[S Jones]

@Steveo67 Gordon Smart stated he was about 250 feet from the incident, which to me puts him at the Qpark multistorey on Dunlop Street, just to the west of the Clutha.
"It fell like a stone" Scottish Sun editor Gordon Smart main witness of Glasgow Police Helicopter crash | The Drum (http://www.thedrum.com/news/2013/11/30/it-felt-stone-scottish-sun-editor-gordon-smart-main-witness-glasgow-police)

His account does give the impression it came straight down, as opposed to an auto'ing glide, but that he did not see the impact.

[ShyTorque]

SASless, I have no information on the mission being flown during/prior to the accident, only second hand speculation on here.

Routine helicopter patrols are (or certainly were in my time, well before NPAS days) deemed too expensive and a waste of aircraft hours, which could not be justified to the taxpayer. The ASU responded to actual task requests, as required by the control rooms (we were a joint force unit).

The (police) members of the crew at my unit did have the authority to "self launch" to a developing situation if seen appropriate; for that reason the radios of both forces were constantly being monitored by the unit. The only "patrolling" done was the return flight from a completed task.

[DIBO]

Could a stressed pilot in an emergency have taken a quick look below him and in the dark mistaken the roof for an empty parking lotwell make a split-second decision using this rather poorly "artist impression" of the area at night from about 1000 feet. Quite a difference from the crisp clear daylight views posted earlier...
http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab142/DIBOYOU/PPRune/GLASGOW2ATNIGHT-1.jpg (http://s858.photobucket.com/user/DIBOYOU/media/PPRune/GLASGOW2ATNIGHT-1.jpg.html)

[Munnyspinner]

I am sure all our thoughts are with all he families bereaved by this tragic accident.
I know the area quite well but only from ground. If the aircraft was in transit eastwards it is likely that they would have been over the Clyde. The proximity of highish structures immediately in land would suggest to me that he crossroads at bridgeton/ Clyde street was perhaps the emergency aiming point if this was a controlled autorotation. Options are limited and control may have been compromised. Whatever the circumstances I am certain the pilot had due regard both for his passengers and anyone on the ground.

[steveo67]

@S Jones Yes, that ties up more with other accounts. I'm probably putting too much emphasis on his earlier statements about 'see[ing] the angle, the speed and the trajectory of the fall'. Angle and trajectory could both be referring to the vertical.

However, I've still got doubts about how much he could have seen of a drop from 4/500ft given the significant blocking by the Cathedral in the direction of the Clutha from that roof. Should also probably note that Govanhill (area of earlier hovering) is to the south on the other side of the Clyde.

[S Jones]

@Steveo67 Does this view help? I can't see the cathedral much in the way. The tenements would be more of an issue.

Putting the heli to the north/travelling east, looks like they didn't have any chance to aim for anything. It all happened too fast.

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/3571/lq5v.jpg

[SASless]

Hopefully AAIB will find all this type of info, I know people have comments but with an incident as serious as this do we we need wild speculation and political comments!

Wild Speculation and Political Comments.....do explain what you mean by that comment?

This is a fatal accident....and is no more tragic than any other fatal accident.

Good folks have been lost and the discussion extant is about what could have happened to cause the crash of the helicopter.

Asking if there is any Radar Trace Data is just that....a question.

Such Data could depict such information as Ground Track, Altitude, Height above Ground, Ground Speed, and if there were deviations prior to the aircraft being lost on Radar.

Asking what mission the aircraft was tasked with also would begin to describe what flight profiles might be used.

No politics or wild speculation in those two questions.

[steveo67]

Yes. I know the area well, I'm from Glasgow which is why I'm puzzled about what would and wouldn't have been visible. It's much further away than the 250ft he thought but I'm well aware of all the blocking buildings, some pretty high between the viewing position and where it landed.

I'm sure they'll have enough witnesses to confirm all this fairly soon but for now his information seemed to be the most relevant and detailed. It's still astounding it wasn't worse than it was.

[ShyTorque]

Wild Speculation and Political Comments.....do explain what you mean by that comment?

I think the comment was probably with reference to certain interviews on British TV.

[S Jones]

Sorry Steve, I misquoted. Smart stated 250 metres, not feet. I agree with you, he would only have seen a certain percentage of the aircraft's descent, but what he did see evidently made a big impression on him.
Yes, if this was a rotors not turning descent I'm amazed the toll wasn't higher.
But if it was a rotors-still incident, then it's nothing like the 2 previous EC-135 losses. Meaning I hope they get their finger out while other crews are still flying 135s.
At least I read Eurocopter are sending a delegation and the German AAIB to Scotland.

[nomorehelosforme]

Look at threads 101, 135 and 140 Shy I totally agree with your comment!

[G-CPTN]

What about sudden incapacitation of the pilot?

Maybe he was blinded by a laser-pen?


Are either of the observers capable of taking control (assuming there was time)?

Would any autopilot software intervene?

[S Jones]

Nomorehelos
Post#101 is innocent enough, and 135 (mine) was in response to a rant that those involved were being bigged up.

You may have missed the inference, but my post was actually about the media going into opinions in the absence of facts, and other sections just misinforming.
Sorry if you have a problem with that, but I'd like the facts, which is why I'm interested and here, rather than there.

[FairWeatherFlyer]

I was discussing this with a friend and noted that there was a float kit in some of the previous footage of aircraft. Would the river be the obvious place for a night time auto if that was fitted and armed?

[nomorehelosforme]

Why no comment about post 140! It is very clear to me that you have zero experience in this industry and are just some thing from the press leaching what they can off this forum when it comes to high profile incidents, shame on you!

[piesupper]

G-CPTN:
News in the local papers this week of a spate of laser incidents on approach to EGPF - you may be onto something there.

In other news, the AAIB can pack up and go home, Westboro Baptist Church have stated unequivocally that it was no accident, God had decided to show Glasgow and Scotland that passing the Equal Marriage Act and our proclivity for a wee swally was displeasing to Him.

Westboro Baptist Church blames Glasgow helicopter crash on gay marriage and drinking | Pride's Purge (http://tompride.wordpress.com/2013/12/01/westboro-baptist-church-blames-glasgow-helicopter-crash-on-gay-marriage-and-drinking/)


edited to direct reply to G-CPTN, not Conjecture , sorry.

[piesupper]

Just to put some contrast on that last post, one of the first offers of help last night came from Glasgow Central Mosque (just across the Clyde) who threw their doors open and offered food, drink and a rest area for all involved.

[S Jones]

nmh yes, you're right, I have no experience in this industry. I never claimed to. I'm just a member of the public with an interest in aviation. Didn't think that was a hanging offence.
As for post 140, that's someone else's problem.

As for leeching, I have nothing to gain. Just an interest.
Now, if that's okay with you, maybe we can get back on subject?

[10Watt]

Getting even sillier.

Lasers of 2in diameter beam are on sale as " targeting devices ", range

undisclosed, no age restriction, for £135 from only one UK distributor.

What happened was fairly instant and plainly final. From an angle below?

l think not.

Only three possibilities for failure.

Aircraft. - tax payers money being spent, unlikely cause.

Pilot. - health problems, unlikely cause.

External. - most likely. Lasers not directly into the eye, unlikely cause.

Atc know.

[S Jones]

I've just been googling why my force was using an AS350 a couple of weeks ago (wondering if some forces might revert to older/other models pending AAIB) and I came across the police aviation page.

Curiously, I read one helo was brought down by a defective fuel pump.
Wasn't on a 135, but it's another possible surely, apart from main gearbox failure or "did it run out of fuel" as I saw one person quote on another forum.
Just wondering aloud, as the 135 isn't exactly plagued by mgb stuff like the 335.

[SASless]

Jiminy Christmas folks!

Lasers, ground fire from druggies, God and the Westboro Baptist Church...not a bit of evidence for any of that....none...zip...zero....and you want anyone to grant you any credibility when you post such stuff? :rolleyes:

[mmurray]

Anyone know anymore about this from The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/30/glasgow-pub-helicopter-crash-police-pilot) ?

There have been significant safety alerts recently, however. Bond Air Services temporarily took the EC135 out of service last year after the Scottish Ambulance Service reported a crack in the main rotor hub; the same defect was found in other EC135s, so Bond introduced daily safety checks before allowing the aircraft to resume service.

Thanks

[10Watt]

the main rotor hub appears to be attached.

Oh and SASless, no l don`t.

l really couldn`t give a moments thought.

[jugofpropwash]

Judging from the last 10+ years of reading PPrune, it appears some believe all aircraft incidents are caused by evil la@er pointers until proven otherwise.

[Just want to fly]

BBC News - Scottish air ambulances grounded amid safety fears (http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-17988517)

Here is the article from May when both Bond a/c were grounded over suspected cracks in the rotor hub.

Was this issue resolved or could it be a possible explanation?

[sitigeltfel]

The DT has named some of the victims, including two of the crew...

Police Scotland named Gary Arthur, a 48-year-old from the Paisley area, as one of the dead after his body was recovered. On Saturday it was also reported that a local policewoman, PC Kirsty Nelis, was another victim. The helicopter pilot, who was killed, was named as David Traill, a former RAF Flight Lieutenant who served in both Gulf Wars. Glasgow helicopter crash: search for survivors amid the rubble continues - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10486508/Glasgow-helicopter-crash-search-for-survivors-amid-the-rubble-continues.html)

The article seems to suggest that here may still be survivors, and a larger death toll.

[AvNews]

Pilot now named as the late David "Dave" Traill, ex-RAF Chinook display pilot and former QHI who saw service in both Gulf Wars.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7460/11148218504_b4e3c09099_o.jpg

David Traill

[capewrath]

BBC news this morning reported that there are now strops on the wreckage and a crane is on site.

[Misformonkey]

Is there a penalty life factor PLF issued against these aircraft to take into account the sustained hovering they do at altitude out of ground affect? I've witnessed these aircraft form other forces hovering for sustained periods and have always thought this must be reducing the life of the MRGB.

[Tankertrashnav]

Latest tripe from the media:

On the Radio 4 Broadcasting House programme this morning, Matthew Parris (normally a journalist I admire) said scornfully "some of the more right wing press are referring to the EC 135 as a "Eurocopter" - I suppose because it's of European manufacture ".

:ugh:

[Bravo73]

Judging from the last 10+ years of reading PPrune, it appears some believe all aircraft incidents are caused by evil la@er pointers until proven otherwise.

...or vortex ring (as suggested in an earlier post). :rolleyes:

[Thomas coupling]

Zorab - close to home, eh. Stay safe buddy.

Whitehead - interesting point re Winsor.

My observations as one with 2500hrs as a police pilot on 135:
Either:
MGB catastrophic failure causing MRH and TRH to stop turning. (Unlikely - especially in light of the fact that Euro copter (Airbus) haven't issues a cease ops warning).
Double engine failure (possibly due to low fuel / contaminated fuel) and a delay in entering auto.
Catastrophic engine failure taking out the remaining engine (unlikely as debris hasn't yet been recovered away from the scene.

Vortex ring doesn't slow blades down.

[All of the above is based on pictures and eye witness accounts of intact MRH/TR blades and 'popping/banging noises from the helo].

The cabs are flying today - which means the operators have a rough idea what may have caused this.

[andy19422]

Firstly can I say I can't fly anything including an RC toy so feel free to shoot my comments down in flames. Autorotation is only good if you have a power out and not much use in a tail rotor failure. I have seen the film of the channel 4 news helicopter crash in Brooklin that lost the tail rotor, and that only took about twenty seconds to crash and that was spinning wildly. I think if that is what happened here the Pilot was just along for the ride and saying he could have picked a better spot to land in nonsense.

[Winch-control]

"which means the operators have a rough idea what may have caused this".

That is very concerning, given your 2500hrs.

[Fortyodd2]

500 Fan - there is most definitely a switch for intercom record and most of the time it is in the off position. (so that when the recording is played in court the jury don't have to listen to the crew slagging off the control room inspector).

S.Jones - your local force most definitely was not using a 350 - all police ops require twin engine. BTP/Network Rail operate a 355 in Police colours - was that what you saw??
Exactly what MGB issues is the 355 plagued with??, (or did you mean 225?).

Just want to fly - The head cracks are an ongoing issue. Since the first crack was found, four more have been detected - all by pilots on mandatory pre/post flight inspections. The first head was "flown" by the manufacturer under test and even after several hours, the blade was still securely attached by the remaining points. If this aircraft had shed a blade then the investigation team would be collecting wreckage from a much wider area.

Generally to others not in the know and especially the desparate media hounds - by the time the EC135 runs out of fuel, over the previous 30 minutes there would be 3 amber warning lights, 2 red warning lights with audio, 2 loudly complaining police air observers and number 2 engine will quit about 2 minutes before number 1 - that's the way the system is designed.

[Outwest]

Vortex ring doesn't slow blades down.

You've obviously never been in VRS.....

[airpolice]

Fortyodd1, if the 135 had lost a blade it might well be hidden in the Clyde. You'd think the AAIB would have counted how many blades are in the pub by now. However, it would be consistent with some eye witness accounts, but there are so many different versions.....

No reports of the siren or skyshout havng been activated on the way down, so it's probably been really quick from problem to impact.

[Non-PC Plod]

Winch control

I dont see why that TCs comment would be "very concerning". If the manufacturers or operators thought it likely that there was a catastrophic technical failure, I would have thought it obvious that they would have grounded the fleet pending some sort of inspection.
Clearly it is very possible that there is information out there available to them but not yet in the public domain - eg ATC tapes, police radio recordings, maintenence info, etc which may already show a likely cause. Of course, quite rightly we will not get the full information until this has been fully scrutinised by the apppropriate agencies.

[Fortyodd2]

Airpolice,
I wasn't suggesting for a second that it had shed a blade, simply responding to Just want to fly's question about the head cracks in a vain attempt to stop the journo's spouting cr@p.
I was one of the first on scene when a Lynx shed a main rotor blade near Mendig in 1994 and know just how big the wreckage field can be. :sad:

[ShyTorque]

I did initially wonder about MRB loss as a potential cause but if that occurred it's likely that the resulting out of balance forces would have ripped off the main gearbox. In the photos it appear to be still with the aircraft.

[SASless]

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7435/11150713285_b0ae16e214_b.jpg




Pretty well can assume the Main Rotor was not turning with any speed or power as evidenced by the lack of damage to the leading edge on this blade.



http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/PYWzPnRVdrQ/maxresdefault.jpg


http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/azstarnet.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/3/78/3787f7bb-2681-5e13-bdd4-5863897e5a4a/5299c92b6d117.preview-620.jpg

[Winch-control]

"I dont see why that TCs comment would be "very concerning". If the manufacturers or operators thought it likely that there was a catastrophic technical failure, I would have thought it obvious that they would have grounded the fleet pending some sort of inspection."

You have I do believe answered your own question as to your thoughts!

[ShyTorque]

No reports of the siren or skyshout havng been activated on the way down, so it's probably been really quick from problem to impact.

Nice thought that it might be activated as the icing on the cake in a nice, relaxed leisurely emergency autorotation (!) but it's not in any autorotation drills I've seen and from experience of using that equipment, people look around a lot in confusion before looking up, still confused. So there's not really much point and it might be counterproductive.

We were once tasked to a major chemical factory explosion/leak and gas cloud (nitric acid vapour).

Once on scene we were ordered by the control room to use our newly fitted Skyshout equipment to tell people to shut their windows and stay indoors. Of course we quickly noticed that people below were coming outside to hear the strange noises. Then they just looked up at the helicopter.

So we quickly gave up with that idea and moved away.

[fly911]

My observations as one with personal experience with hot air balloons, as well as experience reading comments from Thomas Coupling, I have to say that TC has a lot in common with a hot air balloon, and it's not the balloon.

[Helilog56]

That's not a m/r blade....it's a stabilizer.

[Skeleton]

Some of you arm chair, FSX heros, need to calm down and keep your non expert theory's to yourself. People have died. This is not a game and in time there familys may read this thread.
Leave the experts to find out and report what happened.

[SASless]

You caught me as I was editing the post.....and you are exactly correct.

The Fire Fighters are carrying a partial Main Rotor Blade....behind them is the Stablizer which is bent downwards.....the Drive Shaft is on top of the Boom. The exposed blades of the Fenstron are visible at the Top of the Ladder and show little rotational damage if any.

[Jackonicko]

That's the end (recently sawn through, by the look of it) of a Main Rotor Blade, Heligog. There are plenty of photos of AO pre-accident which would show you what its stabilisers look like, and what colour they are.

Indeed you can see 'em in the other photo posted by my learned friend SASless.

[Helilog56]

Wow....thanks Jackonicko...your such a big help with your insight a knowledge:D

[S Jones]

Fortyodd2
Generally to others not in the know and especially the desparate media hounds - by the time the EC135 runs out of fuel, over the previous 30 minutes there would be 3 amber warning lights, 2 red warning lights with audio, 2 loudly complaining police air observers and number 2 engine will quit about 2 minutes before number 1 - that's the way the system is designed.

Exactly, and it would still be capable of autorotation.
The fly in the ointment in this whole thing is the Sun's editor's statement saying it came down with blades not turning and falling like a stone, in which case I'd have expected 3 tonnes of 135 to have gone straight through the roof in one go.

But an auto followed by a 7-8ft drop into a pub, I expected the crew to be walking wounded at worst.
Very sad all round. Hopefully we'll get more clues as the aircraft is removed from the building, hopefully today or tomorrow.

[aeromys]

Unfortunately the initial picture showed the Stabilisers, which were commented on, then an additional picture was added showing two Firemen carrying a MRB, and it was assumed posters were referring to the first picture and there the confusion lays :\

[Winch-control]

"If the manufacturers or operators thought it likely that there was a catastrophic technical failure, I would have thought it obvious that they would have grounded the fleet pending some sort of inspection."

maybe as you stand in repute of TC's comment you would like to respond? Whitehead06

[S Jones]

I think this is the image Cabby's referring to. Shows a bit more of the fenestron.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5968/o8da.jpg

[Helilog56]

Whitehead06......reread the prior posts very, very , slowly , and you may catch on :rolleyes:

[Winch-control]

"If the manufacturers or operators thought it likely that there was a catastrophic technical failure, I would have thought it obvious that they would have grounded the fleet pending some sort of inspection."
Indeed Sir, it is you that has started the hares to run...

[Winch-control]

Whitehead 06 there are but 3 responses:

a: mechanical
b: pilot
c: mechanical and pilot

You have said that there is no reason to ground the type. Your thoughts please.

[S Jones]

Interesting. They are apparently dismantling the aircraft at the scene, according to the DM.
Fenestron now showing much more damage than from the photo above.
'Every time I shut my eyes I see that wee man': Woman who was inside packed Glasgow pub when police helicopter crashed into roof can't shake horror of seeing dead man carried from carnage | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2516360/Every-time-I-shut-eyes-I-wee-man-Woman-inside-packed-Glasgow-pub-police-helicopter-crashed-roof-shake-horror-seeing-dead-man-carried-carnage.html)

[Technet101]

The latest ariel shots show at least two full rotor blades showing little damage as would be expected if they were rotating at any speed.

[DIBO]

But an auto followed by a 7-8ft drop into a pub, I expected the crew to be walking wounded at worst.An 8ft drop onto the skids would have been almost a non-event (injury wise). Coming down through a collapsing ceiling at maybe a 60° nose down angle, going straight through the floor boards, only being arrested by the floor beams hitting the first solid airframe structures like the skid mounting (positioned below the crew seats), would make the whole cockpit area very injury prone.
The mostly undamaged rotor blades mean the rotor was stopped after some form of auto-rotation. A stopped rotor in the air, even at 75feet, would mean a 2 tons object crashing straight through the wooden ceiling (and ground floor) with explosive force. No time for the band making jokes 'that they brought the ceiling down' (if witness reports are reliable).
High AoA in the last moments of the flare, could explain the partially separated fenestron tail section, if it hit a solid structure first, leaving the rest of the helicopter in a pretty undamaged state, until the second and lethal stage of this drama unfolded. I think they ran out of luck twice.

[jimjim1]

DIBO said
High AoA in the last moments of the flare, could explain the partially separated fenestron tail section, if it hit a solid structure first

There is a bashed up looking AC heat exchanger on the roof that seems to fit that nicely. Photo in post 216.

[Standard Overhaul]

Hello¡¡

I agree with other posts about low rotor blade damage, so It can be:

Operating at the altitudes and airspeeds shown within the cross-hatched or shaded areas of the Height/Velocity diagram may not allow enough time for the critical transition from powered flight to autorotation.
Police Ops usually are hovering or at low speed.

[S Jones]

Someone previously mentioned the roof being in darkness. Pity I can't find any previous shots of the Clutha at night, but if he was expecting to land on what he thought was a flat bit of ground 10ft lower down, the flare probably came a bit late (if at all) before the hard impact with the roof.
It's the Sun editor's version of falling like a stone with rotors not turning that's got me, and he seems to be the only witness.

[Fortyodd2]

Standard Overhaul,
This is the UK not Canada - there are NO single engined police helicopters.

[RedhillPhil]

I've just read this input on an angling site that I visit.
Is this statement kosher?


All pilots are taught how to autorotate a helicopter in the event of an engine failure, this still enables the pilot to control the descent and pitch/yaw of the aircraft. Most helicopters have a centrifugal clutch fitted which will only engage the rotate if the clutch is spinning fast enough, this will also disengage in the event of an engine failure which allows the rotors to spin freely. I imagine that in this unfortunate case the clutch either failed to disengage or the gearbox was so badly damaged that debris stopped the rotatation.
Another possibility is that the rotor brake was on, or the pilot was pulling back on the stick which will slow the rotors.

[skadi]

Interesting on the pics of the damaged fenestron is the fact, that only the lower blades were bent.

[nomorehelosforme]

Can you please clarify you position/experience with fall from heights and the fact that the crew should be walking wounded at the worst? Check any HSE publication and they consider any fall over 2 meters to be a risk of a fatality let alone without been involved in a serious helicopter crash prior to a fall, if that's what happened!

Please stop your speculation on this thread and respect the fact that friends and families of those involved will by now be reading this forum. As many others say lets wait for investigation results. Rant over

[Sir Niall Dementia]

RedHillPhill;


A brilliant bit of fishermans' tall tales! The 135 has two engines driving one set of rotors through free power turbines into a combiner box then the main gear box, (at least the one I spent 3 hours 40 min in today does)


There are no clutches, pulling up the collective too early in an auto can slow the blades dramatically (enough to totally screw your day) pulling back on the stick tends to "g load" the rotor disc and increase the rotor rpm.


:mad: me! I thought the BBC was bad, maybe they're getting their info from angling sites now.


Doubtless others will criticise my description, but I'm trying to keep it simple for the care in the community cases who have come out of the woodwork again.

[skadi]

I am thinking he was talking about the freewheeling units at the gearbox inputshafts? And a combining gearbox in the 135?? The B212 had one...

[Gwyn_ap_Nudd]

Can't help wondering how much the eyewitness account from the Sun editor on the car park roof can be relied upon given the fact that it was late at night and there can have been little or no moon. Just how clearly could he have seen what the aircraft was doing? Yes, there are lights on the ground, but how high would their illumination have reached?

[HLCPTR]

This is the UK not Canada - there are NO single engined police helicopters.

Even twin-engine helicopters have a Height Velocity curve. Loss of one engine can be a terminal malfunction if within the curve.

[Standard Overhaul]

http://www.pprune.org/flight-testing/154135-multi-engine-helicopters-height-velocity-avoid-curve.html

[RGN01]

Firstly, my sincere condolences to all those directly and indirectly involved in this sad incident.

I usually lurk on this forum and when these sad incidents occur I, like many who are fascinated by aviation but not lucky enough to work in it or know little more than the basics, watch the threads out of a real desire to understand more. More about how things normally work, and how they fail. I see some very interesting opinions and, yes, speculation, but this all adds to my understanding of all things aviation. Thank you to those who share knowledge freely!

What always amazes me is how these threads degenerate into slanging matches where some individuals seem unable to discuss things rationally without sneering at those whose opinions differ. If you know things then why not tell us civilly instead of mocking those that don't?

How does this behaviour honour those that have sadly lost their lives? Surely discussing things in a civil manner - even with those that don't know much - will at least help some good come from this bad situation?

[Max Shutterspeed]

It's the nature of forums the world over. Everyone is a keyboard hero, some just want to trigger an argument. However, here it's pretty easy to pick out the qualified opinions from the Walter Mitties. Serving HEMS and Police pilots with significant hours on the type posting here provide all the information you need. Just skim over the rubbish.

I'm sure that there must be some deep thoughts this morning as they drove to work, even though they know the facts are that it's a safe machine. Thank you to those for adding information and explaining the systems. Let's hope there's no knee jerk reactions from authority.

[Burnie5204]

"Check any HSE publication and they consider any fall over 2 meters to be a risk of a fatality let alone without been involved in a serious helicopter crash prior to a fall, if that's what happened!"

There was a circular around 6 months ago to airport ground staff after an unfortunate fatal accident at another airport where a member of ground crew fell 4 feet from the side ladder of an aircraft catering truck, hit their head and died.



In relation to this incident I put more faith in one of my Scottish colleagues who was in Glasgow and was driving past and had her window down when it happened than the account of the Sun Editor who just 'happened' to see the entire incident from the roof of a multi-storey car park in the dark of night despite there being other buildings that would block their sight lines for crucial parts of the incident.

She states that she saw and heard absolutely nothing until a sudden SINGLE very loud bang which she likened to an explosion when the helicopter impacted. I would expect that if autorotation had been attempted then she would have heard something (especially being as she is from an aviation background and uses frequent heli-ferries). Her account also fits with the images of main rotor blades being craned out almost fully intact.

[Chris Scott]

Further re the Scottish Sun Editor's account, I can't see how he could have seen if the main rotor was turning or (virtually) stationary from "a few hundred yards away" at night. Unless, perhaps, the a/c had previously been much closer to him than that, which seems unlikely. However, if the AAIB are in luck, he may also be able to report any horizontal movement of the a/c as it descended.

Those of us non-helicopter pilots who are merely accustomed to helicopters overflying our back yards at about 500 ft or so - sometimes in transit, sometimes at low speed for survey purposes, and occasionally in the hover near railways or road junctions - have probably never witnesssed an autorotation training exercise. Don't think I have. Therefore, I'm wondering if I would describe an autorotation in similar terms to his account, i.e., "it fell like a stone." .

Assuming there was little or no forward airspeed, I have a question for you helicopter pilots. Starting from 500ft, and in the extreme case of no initial airspeed, what sort of stabilised ROD would be likely, and would it be normal to trade part of the height initially for some airspeed?

'scuse my ignorance...

[airsound]

Tankertrashnav, I do applaud your post #191. Having myself harrumphed at M Parris this morning, I was inspired to email Broadcasting House:
I'm a huge BH fan, and usually a fan of Matthew Parris. But I was surprised and dismayed to hear his remark about Eurocopter this morning. He seemed to suggest that the word was being used as some kind of insult - but can it be that this well-rounded, polymath journalist doesn't know that the company that makes the EC135 is called Eurocopter? The clue might even be in the 'EC' bit of EC135. Eurocopter is, by some standards, the biggest helicopter manufacturer in the world.

He might also be interested to know that his apparent bigotry did not escape the notice of the sometimes estimable PPRuNe, aka the Professional Pilots' Rumour Network, in which a poster by the name of Tankertrashnav posted this:
Latest tripe from the media:

On the Radio 4 Broadcasting House programme this morning, Matthew Parris (normally a journalist I admire) said scornfully "some of the more right wing press are referring to the EC 135 as a "Eurocopter" - I suppose because it's of European manufacture ".You might feel inclined to pass this on to Matthew P.I'll let you know if any of them get back to me. But not holding breath

[Armchair_Ace]

I made a similar observation earlier in this thread & see (with no surprise) that the condescending comments from self styled professionals / experts continue.
Far be it for us miserable mud-skippers to dare to stick our filthy noses into the sacred realms of Top Gun territory; how dare we offer our stinking two-penneth worth of guillemot-5hit theory to the golden-wings of such aerial Gigantes.

Some of the culprits on here may have been blessed with the opportunity, skills & knowledge to fly these machines that fascinate all sorts of people (including "care in the community cases" #232) However it is a far greater person that can recognise, communicate instructively & debate with one who's ability's, knowledge levels & opinions differ from their own.

[BigEndBob]

Well the 135 around here is flying, so looks like they ain't be grounded for a possible mechanical malfunction. Or are they treated like any Piper and they just soldier on.

[DIBO]

Check any HSE publication and they consider any fall over 2 meters to be a risk of a fatalityWe're talking here about helmet wearing crew, properly strapped in a 4 point harness on an crash resistant seat (at least 15G spikes vertically), mounted in an energy absorbing fuselage. Not what HSE is talking about...

[skadi]

The "stationary" rotor, reported by the eyewhitness, could just be an illusion caused by the flashing strobe lights! It was a dark night!

[CharlieOneSix]

I made a similar observation earlier in this thread & see (with no surprise) that the condescending comments from self styled professionals / experts continue.
Far be it for us miserable mud-skippers to dare to stick our filthy noses into the sacred realms of Top Gun territory; how dare we offer our stinking two-penneth worth of guillemot-5hit theory to the golden-wings of such aerial Gigantes.

Some of the culprits on here may have been blessed with the opportunity, skills & knowledge to fly these machines that fascinate all sorts of people (including "care in the community cases" #232) However it is a far greater person that can recognise, communicate instructively & debate with one who's ability's, knowledge levels & opinions differ from their own.

Armchair Ace - the frustration from helicopter professionals trying to discuss a matter which affects all those who ply their trade with these machines sometimes comes to a head when their train of thought is constantly interrupted by those who do not come under the category of the Rotorheads forum as defined as at the top of the forum "A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them".

We are quite happy to explain the ins and out of our trade to those who are not part of it and who have genuine questions but when they pontificate about this accident and call us self styled professionals/experts then I trust you will understand why those who post such comments may receive rather short shrift from us.

[Burnie5204]

Skadi - If you see the images of the rotors (particularly the ones of the blades being removed from the scene) they are almost entirely intact. The almost complete lack of denting, twisting, bending, breaking or any damage would indicate that they were at very low energy at the point of impact with the structure i.e. very slow or stopped which does lend support to the witness statements of stationary rotors.

[Fortyodd2]

Standard Overhaul,
Re: the link you directed me to - 2nd post.
"2. There is no strict relevance to operations in PC1 or to Cat A standards, as the procedures developed for such operations specifically avoid the HV curve and are detailed in a separate FLM supplement".

All UK Police Operations are conducted according to PC1/CAT A standards.

[Old Age Pilot]

Armchair Ace - the frustration from helicopter professionals trying to discuss a matter which affects all those who ply their trade with these machines sometimes comes to a head when their train of thought is constantly interrupted by those who do not come under the category of the Rotorheads forum as defined as at the top of the forum "A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them".

We are quite happy to explain the ins and out of our trade to those who are not part of it and who have genuine questions but when they pontificate about this accident and call us self styled professionals/experts then I trust you will understand why those who post such comments may receive rather short shrift from us.

Well said.

[DX Wombat]

Further re the Scottish Sun Editor's account, I can't see how he could have seen if the main rotor was turning or (virtually) stationary from "a few hundred yards away" at night.
You forget, in their minds editors of such publications are second only to The Almighty in their ability to know all, see all, and relate all facts once they have been suitably embellished and embroidered so as to attract more purchasers of their, eventually, kennel floor liners (HSE doesn't like food to be wrapped in newsprint). ;) Some appear to regard themselves as superior to him.
OAP et al, I'm not a helicopter pilot, in fact I have never even been in a helicopter, I have my PPL(A) and am a member of a Police family. It would appear that whatever happened was sudden and catastrophic and leaves a large, empty space in your community which is very sad. \my thoughts are with all of you.

[HLCPTR]

Re: the link you directed me to - 2nd post.
"2. There is
no strict relevance to operations in PC1 or to Cat A standards, as the
procedures developed for such operations specifically avoid the HV curve and are
detailed in a separate FLM supplement".

All UK Police Operations are conducted according to PC1/CAT A standards.

As factual as that statement may be, it only applies to take-off and landing procedures and has little bearing on an aircraft in flight which experiences an engine failure while within the HV curve (as defined by Press Alt, OAT, air(wind) speed and aircraft weight).

[Stu B]

It is hard to understand how an onlooker could see clearly enough in the dark to discern stationary rotor blades, but discerning motion of the whole helicopter is much more plausible. But in the dark what would have been seen most clearly would have been its lights, and they could very easily have given a misleading appreciation of its gyrations. A "tumbling end over end" motion as I understand the journalist believed he saw is hard to explain. But imagine fro a moment a helicopter exhibiting a very high yaw rate, and at a significant bank angle in the dark. In aircraft axes, the helicopter is yawing, but in earth axes that yawing will appear as a "cartwheeling" motion and could easily be described as tumbling end over end, especially in the dark with the observer not realising he was seeing the aircraft in somewhat of a "plan view".
How would a helicopter get in such a condition - well the loss of drive to the fenestron could generate a high yaw (depending on airspeed (yaw stability and yaw damping) and rotor torque (as the engines try to spin the cabin in opposition to the torque applied to the rotor). And the bank angle - various mechanisms - aerodynamic rolling moment form the fuselage at very high sideslip; immediate lateral stick input in response to sudden yaw rate; even perhaps lateral stick input due to the inertia of the stick and hand on it in a very aggressive yaw acceleration. Although entry to autorotation after power loss can be and is trained and practised, the loss of yaw control and resultant sudden yaw rate when the reaction to engine/rotor torque is no longer restrained by a tail rotor or fenestron cannot be, and would be very disorienting, especially in the dark. I have a faint recollection of once seeing video of a helicopter loosing its tail rotor drive and the gyrations were sickening to see. Nevertheless, if the aircraft can be got into autorotation so there is no engine torque being applied to the rotor, there will then be no torque reaction back onto the fuselage and the yaw rate will damp down and - with enough height and a measure of good luck - enough control regained in pitch and roll (though not of course yaw) to have some chance of a survivable arrival. But add in the hazards of darkness and a very obstruction-littered urban environment, and the challenge facing the pilot would be enormous.

Incidentally, an early observer of the fairly-recent San Francisco 777 crash described that aircraft as "having cartwheeled", but all the pundits on PPRuNe immediately dismissed that as impossible and inconsistent with the condition and layout of the wreckage. Some time later video emerged and was posted. It clearly showed the aircraft *yawing* through ~360 degrees but while at a roll attitude of of perhaps 30-40 degrees. The observer's description of "cartwheeling" was not at all an unreasonable description of what the video showed (allowing for the fact he only saw it once, in real time, and was not "primed" for what he was about to witness), but his account was simply interpreted too literally by the pundits and rejected as "impossible". We should not too lightly dismiss eye-witness reports that do not fit our own preconceptions. They may need some careful interpretation (and they may be wrong in some respects - forensic recollection of sudden, rapidly-evolving events is not something humans are good at), but we would be well advised to strive to see if there might be significant insights concealed within them.

The accident at Glasgow was a truly horrific event both for the crew and for those in the bar. God rest the souls of all who perished.

[Thomas coupling]

Standard overhaul you are quite right, it does seem a little tense - this thread.
Please ask away and those who know will surely help?

Dead Man's Curve:
Twin's do have a very small DMC but it is very very small. Take-offs and landings stay out of them. Cruise obviously stays out of it.
Police helo's hover a LOT and "x" % of the time they are well clear of the DMC. Occasionally in the heat of a chase etc they can inadvertently drift into the zone but it is rare.
In this particular case - indications (eye witness/pictures/noises) suggest the main and tail rotor blades were stationary or close to that. For that to be the case as a consequence of being in the DMC it would suggest he lost both engines and didn't lower the collective at all prior to hitting the deck.

[STANDTO]

Latest eye witness stuff from the scene in this article. Suggestion of MGB letting go.

Do they really just give up like that? In my limited time in choppers, I thought the MGB chips sensors would pick up the early signs of failure in plenty of time.

Police killed in Glasgow helicopter crash had won bravery commendations | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/01/police-killed-glasgow-helicopter-crash-bravery)

[DIBO]

It is hard to understand how an onlooker could see clearly enough in the dark to discern stationary rotor bladesamen
...band Esperanza assumed the collapsing ceiling was a minor problem.
Audience member .... said: ‘Above the music, I heard a loud whoosh and a wooden panel fell down near the stage.
One of the musicians joked, “Looks like we’re bringing the roof down.”’
And then, only then, hell broke loose. Is not what one expects when a 2tons object freefalls from a height thru the roof.

[Lon More]

Re an attempt to land on the roof in darkness. The pub walls were white with illuminated pub signs on them. Also it's a well known location, I wonder how many times he'd flown past it?

[Pilot DAR]

I have read most but not all of this, and some of it pains me. (and I'm only a novice heli pilot) I know no more about this sad event, than what I have read here. The theme of stopped rotors keeps reappearing. I have a question for the truly knowledgeable posters here:

If a pilot were to conduct a reasonably successful autorotation, unfortunately onto a roof, which was unable to support the weight of the helicopter, and following the touchdown, the rotor RPM decayed for any number of reasons, would that not give the band time to make a remark about bringing the roof down, before the helicopter with a now stopped rotor dropped through the roof ('cause following the auto, the stopped rotor no longer carried any of the weight of the helicopter)? (sorry for the run on sentence). If a helicopter sat atop a roof, which could not support it, and it was creating no lift itself, it might drop through with a stopped rotor, which could then have apparently undamaged blades? A fuselage dropping nose down through a roof with beam structure could be sheared as it passed between beams, causing cabin damage, and crew injury?

My training did not ever include full on autos, but I can imagine wanting the rotor to be stopped once you were down, letting alone any influences already stopping it.

[FSXPilot]

Could he have been incapacitated? As single pilot operation that would be game over. I guess we will have to wait about a year for the AAIB to report. RIP all. :-(

[Stu B]

While I was composing my post and saying It is hard to understand how an onlooker could see clearly enough in the dark to discern stationary rotor blades, someone else posted the suggestion that this could have been an optical illusion from the aircraft's strobe lights. Perhaps another example where something a witness says can be understood - in this case the witness may have formed a wrong impression, but perhaps there may have been a mechanism through the strobes for him thinking he saw what he claimed he saw. (My scepticism about the chap seeing the blades was primarily because of the darkness, but of course the light from the strobes neatly solves that aspect.)

In Post 47 I raised the issue of a reported period between the first sign to occupants of the bar that something had happened, then the catastrophic building collapse some period later, enough for the "joke" about the band bringing the ceiling down between the two stages of the event. And soon after, in post #62, HeliComparator (a very well-respected name around here) suggested exactly the two-stage scenario that DIBO has proposed above.

[awblain]

"Tumbling end over end" equals "primarily spinning around the rotor axis"

I can go for that.

Add a powerful strobe interrupting the view, and I think we can see how that description of a plausible loss of yaw control might be described by an eyewitness as a loss of pitch control.