A330 Visual Question

[aterpster]

For current A330 pilots, please.

A couple weeks ago I was a passenger on an A330 from Honolulu to Los Angeles. We arrived in the LAX area around 10:00 PM on a spectacularly clear night.

Having had LAX as my home base for some 25 years, I know the lay of the land quite well. It was apparent we were flying a Stadium Visual CVFP to 24R. (I knew it was 24R upon touchdown).

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1312/00237STADIUM_VIS24LR.PDF

As you can see the Stadium CVFP encourages, but certainly does not require, using the ILS turning onto final. FARs do require using the ILS G/S (or other vertically guided IAP), though, once on final and inside the FAF.

As we passed the old Hollywood Park race track I commented to my wife that we appeared to be a bit high. Turns out we were as we touched down fairly far down then he really got on the brakes and T/Rs.

As we were taxing in the captain made a PA apologizing for the firm, noisy landing. We conceded "we were a bit high." I would have never made that PA. Everything turned out fine so leave well enough alone would be my view.

My question is about the magic on an A330, which I know nothing about. In the "old" days we would tune the ILS turning final on either CFVP for LAX. Would some other form of vertical path guidance be used on the A330 in these circumstances, such as a flight path vector symbol or such?

[ahramin]

Following Airbus SOPs both the ILS G/P and the FPV would be on the PFD.

[taufupok]

Flown on A330 as pax HNL-AKL-HNL...2 of the most wonderful landings I had ever experienced on the " scare bus ".

However, often from HNL-LAX, it was quite a many slam dunks! I guess many jockeys overestimated their superior skills in accepting slam dunk visual approaches after being held high by ATC, or last minute side-steps. Just MHO.

[Capn Bloggs]

Would some other form of vertical path guidance be used on the A330 in these circumstances, such as a flight path vector symbol or such?
The FPV wouldn't be giving any "guidance", only "what we're doing right now", I would have thought.

VNAV around the corner?

[aterpster]

Capn Bloggs:

The FPV wouldn't be giving any "guidance", only "what we're doing right now", I would have thought.

The FPV I am familiar with (not the AB330) gives vertical guidance to the runway provided you place the FPV symbol on the approach end of the runway. Of course, if you start this maneuver high or low, the result is too steep or too shallow of an angle, as the case may be.

VNAV around the corner?

Could be I guess. But, that is ad hoc VNAV capability way beyond anything I know about.

[Capn Bloggs]

But, that is ad hoc VNAV capability way beyond anything I know about.
The nerds like to use it. I don't know the capability of AB in this regard, but in my aeroplane (717) it works well (most of the time ;). Whether the manufacturers intended it to be used around the base turn onto final is another issue.

That approach is a Visual; surely the FAA doesn't "require" use of the ILS?

The FPV I am familiar with (not the AB330) gives vertical guidance to the runway provided you place the FPV symbol on the approach end of the runway.
A HUD?

[flyboyike]

As you can see the Stadium CVFP encourages, but certainly does not require, using the ILS turning onto final. FARs do require using the ILS G/S (or other vertically guided IAP), though, once on final and inside the FAF.


What FAR requires that?

[nitpicker330]

Common sense and airmanship would normally dictate that on a visual approach to a runway equipped with an ILS you would normally tune it. Why wouldn't you???????????????

[aterpster]

Capn Bloggs:

The nerds like to use it. I don't know the capability of AB in this regard, but in my aeroplane (717) it works well (most of the time http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif. Whether the manufacturers intended it to be used around the base turn onto final is another issue.

The only circumstance of which I am aware where VPATH work reliably going around a corner, so to speak, is on a database coded radius-to-fix (RF) leg. RF legs wouldn't be coded on any CVFP.

That approach is a Visual; surely the FAA doesn't "require" use of the ILS?

The sure do, and have done so for many years. But, only at airports with operating control towers:


§ 91.131 Operations in Class B airspace.

(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area except in compliance with § 91.129 and the following rules (remainder not pertinent)


91.129 Operations in Class D airspace. (Pertinent portion follows):

(2) Each pilot operating a large or turbine-powered airplane approaching to land on a runway served by an instrument approach procedure with vertical guidance, if the airplane is so equipped, must:

(i) Operate that airplane at an altitude at or above the glidepath between the published final approach fix and the decision altitude (DA),or decision height (DH), as applicable; or

(ii) If compliance with the applicable distance-from-cloud criteria requires glide path interception closer in, operate that airplane at or above the glide path, between the point of interception of glide path andthe DA or the DH.

(3) Each pilot operating an airplane approaching to land on a runway served by a visual approach slope indicator must maintain an altitude at or above the glide path until a lower altitude is necessary for a safe landing.

(4) Paragraphs (e)(2) and (e)(3) of this section do notprohibit normal bracketing maneuvers above or below the glide path that are conducted for the purpose of remaining on the glide path.

Paragraphs (e)(2) and (e)(3) of this section do not prohibit normal bracketing maneuvers above or below the glide slope that are conductedfor the purpose of remaining on the glide slope.

[Coastrider26]

If the FMS was programmed properly the ILS would have been autotuned for that runway. Maybe a new first officer on the line?

If they were high it would more because the people in front than the 330 hardware/software

[Capn Bloggs]

If the FMS was programmed properly the ILS would have been autotuned for that runway.
How would it autotune if it wasn't in the flight plan?

[Fly3]

Rwy 24R would have been the expected landing runway and would almost certainly been selected in the FMGS. It would therefore auto-tune.

[Coastrider26]

Quote:
If the FMS was programmed properly the ILS would have been autotuned for that runway.

How would it autotune if it wasn't in the flight plan?

Is that a question or didn't you read what I wrote capn bloggs?

[Capn Bloggs]

Is that a question or didn't you read what I wrote capn bloggs?
It is a question and yes I did read what you wrote, Coastrider.

Let me put it another way. If the Stadium Visual is loaded from the database, I assume the ILS approach would not be loaded. If the Stadium Visual is not loaded, I assume you would not load one of the 24 ILS approaches because they start further out and you wouldn't be flying it, per se.

So back to my question, which I'll ask in a different way. Does the A330 autotune the ILS based only on the selected runway, without an ILS also being inserted in the flight plan?

[nitpicker330]

Capt Bloggs:---

Good question, not something we see much in our operation flying from ILS to ILS, however.

In the Sim we recently diverted to Osaka Itami RJOO which has no ILS available in the data base, you select RWY 32L and build the approach from MIDOH. Then you must manually insert the ILS on the Rad Nav page.

So I guess the answer is---if no ILS is selected into the flight plan from the data base then the ILS will not auto tune.

[BuzzBox]

Does the A330 autotune the ILS based only on the selected runway, without an ILS also being inserted in the flight plan?

So I guess the answer is---if no ILS is selected into the flight plan from the data base then the ILS will not auto tune.


Correct. From the FCOM:

Each FMGEC automatically tunes one ILS frequency (and one MLS simultaneously):

‐ In PREFLIGHT or TAKEOFF phase, when the takeoff runway has an associated ILS/MLS

‐ In CLIMB, CRUISE, DESCENT, APPROACH, or GO-AROUND phase, when the type of approach in the flight plan is ILS/MLS

[aterpster]

It seems one thing is for certain. The crew of the A330 in my original post was required to have the ILS 24R tuned somewhere while turning final on the Stadium Visual.

They may very have done just that.

[Capn Bloggs]

So now we've sorted out the lack of autotuning, the crew would/should have manually tuned the ILS, and used the GS for reference around the corner? Company SOP? Ours is that we must manually tune it, but don't have to couple it up, given the vagaries of large intercepts close-in to the runway.

So the original question still stands! :) Out with it, nitpicker! :}

[DutchOne]

Tuning this approach would give you a beautiful profile including vertical deviation. Besides a 3deg descend from 7000 is given to you. Place the bird under the horizon with its tail just touching it gives you the required profile. This keeps you perfectly above the ALT restriction.

By tuning one runway in the primary and one in the secondary you are a click away from an autotuned ILS :).

[Tight Slot]

OK465, jolly good answer. Its taken a while on this thread but finally we have the doughnut! Provides a good indication of high/low for any location for turning final in a 330, now the question of deleting PPOS or not...

[aterpster]

ok465:


(The RWY XX does not have to be selected until you are issued the landing runway and this would appear to meet the 91.129 requirements for 'glide path' as opposed to 'glide slope'. But of course nothing keeps you from line selecting the ILS either.)

Not in the context of 91.129:

(2) Each pilot operating a large or turbine-powered airplane approaching to land on a runway served by an instrument approach procedure with vertical guidance, if the airplane is so equipped, must:

(i) Operate that airplane at an altitude at or above the glidepath between the published final approach fix and the decision altitude (DA),or decision height (DH), as applicable;

Seems clear the glidepath refers to the IAP with vertical guidance that serves the runway being used.

[nitpicker330]

Out with it....out with what??

Ok Capt my opinion is as I said earlier on. I would expect any Pilot would tune the ILS for a visual approach if it was available as a good airmanship point and as just plain common sense. For obvious reasons.

If the box didn't auto tune then I would manually tune. As I've done in the Sim.

As for my company SOP? Can't say I've looked for a policy but I know 99% of Pilots I fly with would do it anyway.:ok:

[SMOC]

So I guess the answer is---if no ILS is selected into the flight plan from the data base then the ILS will not auto tune.

For those interested, if there is an ILS frequency associated with the runway the 744 FMC will autotune it regardless of the FMC selection, ie VOR05L / ILS05L / RWY05L. So I guess it's either a Boeing thing or a customer option.

[aterpster]

OK465:

RWY 24R has one GPS (non RNP-AR) RNAV with vertical guidance (A330 isso-equipped). Don't see anything you bolded that requires tuning the ILS,either line selected or manual.
The regulation doesn't say "ILS" although it did years back. Today, for that particular runway ILS, LPV, or LNAV/VNAV would be the three options. Perhaps I misunderstood you when you stated previously, “No problem....a RWY 24R centerline navprofile will be created from a CF and you will get what is called the'doughnut' for vertical path info....works just as well as a tuned GS and will put you right on the PAPI if you hand fly it properly. The 'doughnut' can be monitored for adjustments around the turn.”

This thread is simply a technical and regulatory discussion, not a horse race or piano player shoot.
:)

[flyboyike]

Seems more like shooting the breeze to me.

[flyboyike]

I sure don't, never even been a passenger on one.