Intersection takeoff in LVO

[Flybartfcp]

Guys, I had a FO asking if an intersection takeoff from LVO would be legal.
At first I thought no, but on a second thought I never seen anything about it anywhere.
Imagine this: RVR 150, 1 transmisometer down, intersection close to mid one, on that intersection ASDA is ok. Would it be viable under EU.OPS? Honestly I don't know, I think it wouldn't be legal, but I really would like to hear from you. Many thanks

[AtomKraft]

Not sure if it would be legal or not to accept such a clearance.

Pretty sure illegal to offer it though.

Therefore, likely to remain an 'academic' question only.

[Flybartfcp]

That is my belief also, I surely wouldn't take it, but not sure if it really is illegal...

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi Flybartfcp,
RVR 150, 1 transmisometer down, intersection close to mid one, on that intersection ASDA is ok. Would it be viable under EU.OPS?
Affirm.
Also the us touch down RVR could be replaced by pilot assessment, permitting take off from full length.
If the stop end RVR was us, but the ASD was OK for the first 2/3rds of the runway, then you may ignore the stop end RVR because it would not be "relevant".
There are rules to permit most sensible operations.

[safetypee]

No. The question should be why you are considering doing this. Being legal or not does not protect you from an accident, but considering the risks in the situation might.
Does the airport have a designated LVO taxi pattern, equipped with ground radar, could the intersection be mis-identified, etc …

There may not be any specific regulation, but there is for the Captain’s responsibility for the safety of the flight.
Is it safe, this requires judgement not legality.
The question is not how can we do this (is it legal), but should we be thinking of doing this.

[Captaintcas]

In Porto, Ryanair is regulary taking off during LVP from the intersection which is nearly at half the total RWY length...

They were even allowed to line-up at the intersection while we were backtracking for a full length departure ... To me a proof of very bad airmanship and atc.

[NZScion]

Some airlines require reading of the runway designator painted on the runway prior to takeoff during LVPs, to ensure correct runway etc. Pretty hard to do this if you're taking off from an intersection...

[binzer]

afaik yes as long as you have asda and performance, same theory as using only the first 2 rvrs if you can stop within the first 2/3rds of runway

only restriction i know is for 125m where the 15m lights are need for guidance aswell as assessment

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi binzer,
only restriction i know is for 125m where the 15m lights are need for guidance aswell as assessment
That's impossible to do at airports with inset landing thresholds (eg LGW 26L). When lining up from M3 (full length), the center line lights are 30m apart as they form part of the approach lighting.

[binzer]

hi rudderrudderrat

yep know what you mean, but on the sim sessions i've done for 125 rvr, we're told we have to move forward to the 15 m lighting for 125 rvr as its part of the requirements. unfortunately performance needs to be calc'd again

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi binzer,
we're told we have to move forward to the 15 m lighting for 125 rvr as its part of the requirements.
As pilots, you are permitted to asses the visual requirements during the first part of the take off roll. (The maths is not that difficult knowing the lights are 30m apart). If you asses you can see adequately then you may continue the take off knowing that the reported RVR further along the runway is satisfactory and that you will have 15m light spacing.

e.g. Consider LGW 08R.
If you lined up at J, the 15m lighting starts 377m along the runway near G.
So having lined up at J, are you seriously expected to taxi over 300m to look at the visual clues adjacent to G?
Otherwise, you may as well taxi the full length of the runway and confirm the mid point and stop end visual requirements are also satisfactory.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Simple answer is don't line up at J. However, if you do then yes you must taxi forward until you satisfy the correct requirements.

This is one of the requirements for a Low Vis (150/125m) take off lifted straight out of my Part A:

High intensity runway centreline lights spaced 15 m or less and high intensity edge lights spaced 60 m or less are in operation

[172_driver]

EU-OPS about 125 m take offs:

(i) Subject to the approval of the Authority, and provided the requirements in paragraphs (A) to (E) below have been satisfied, an operator may reduce the take-off minima to 125 m RVR (Category A, B and C aeroplanes) or 150 m RVR (Category D aeroplanes) when:
(A) Low visibility procedures are in force;
(B) High intensity runway centreline lights spaced 15 m or less and high intensity edge lights spaced 60 m or less are in operation;
(C) Flight crew members have satisfactorily completed training in a flight simulator;
(D) A 90 m visual segment is available from the cockpit at the start of the take-off run; and
(E) The required RVR value has been achieved for all of the relevant RVR reporting points.

My understanding is that pilot assessment cannot replace RVR readings for take-offs in 125 m visibility. And taking the book literally I guess you need 15 meter spacing from the start of your take off. But this is not the case at LGW you say?

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi 172_driver & Lord Spandex Masher,

Please see this map of LGW.
http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-C885741A5E3E55C84950327011B70289/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/AD/AIRAC/EG_AD_2_EGKK_2-1_en_2013-07-25.pdf
Low ViS Ops Procedures:
"1.3.3. DEPARTURE
1.3.3.1. RWY 08R
Entry via CAT III holding point at H3, J3, J4 or J7."

We are not replacing RVR readings for take-offs in 125 m visibility, we are confirming that the required visibility has been met using 30m spacing lights at the start of the take off roll, and verifying A 90 m visual segment is available from the cockpit at the start of the take-off run. All the RWCL lights are 15m apart after the landing threshold where the Touch down, mid point and stop end RVRs have been measured.

According to your logic, are we and ATC all wasting our time entering RW08 via J during low vis ops?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

RRR, from my Part A again:
A minimum of 90 metres visual segment (six centre-line lights visible from the cockpit).

...and...

In the absence of, or as a substitute for the TDZ RVR, the Commander may make a visual assessment. Take-off is permitted provided the assessed TDZ RVR is equal to or greater than 150 m. A minimum of ten centreline lights should be visible from the cockpit.

Both of which require 15m spaced center line lights.

So the answer to your question has to be yes.

[172_driver]

Hi,

I was merely copying the text from the big Bible.

I for one understand that in real life rules and procedures are somewhat interpreted to fit reality. Ask 10 pilots - get 11 answers…
My interpretation is still that for less than the standard 150 m take-off minima (where you can replace RVR with pilot assessment), you technically need RVR readings giving at least 125 for the relevant parts.

Starting the take-off roll from J does not seem to fully comply with 15 m spacing, but hey.. if it's been done before why stop now.. :)

[JeroenC]

Well, they are "in operation", just starting slightly ahead!

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi Lord Spandex Masher,

It sounds like your company's Flight Technical Department has added to the rules by specifying the number of lights to be counted and prevented themselves from taking off from J in LVOs at LGW.

I hope they have pointed this problem out to their crews and ask you to do the performance calculation from G.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

No, they're implying that 15m spaced centerline lights should be used. Which is exactly what EUOPS says.

It's a bit pointless having 15m spacing where you can't see them when they're required for 125m take offs.

Might as well bung a couple of 15m spaced lights at the far end of the runway then...after all they are in operation, no?

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi Lord Spandex Masher,
Might as well bung a couple of 15m spaced lights at the far end of the runway then...after all they are in operation, no?
No - because all the relevant sections of the runway have to have both the RVR & 15m CL Lighting, so that would include the touch down, mid point & stop end area, no?

172_driver quoted the regulations correctly - they don't specify the number of lights to be counted - only that "A 90 m visual segment is available from the cockpit at the start of the take-off run;"

If your OPS manual tells you to count N lights, then that's what you have to do. Better tell LGW Tower that you'll be taxing >300m forward, stop and count some lights before you start your take off roll though. Since LGW 08R lighting is approved for 125m TO, you'd think that your procedure would specified in the LVO notes, wouldn't you?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

they don't specify the number of lights to be counted

Correct but they do specify that 15m spaced lights are in operation. That is a requirement. If the displaced threshold doesn't have HI centerline lights at 15m spacing then you cannot use it. (Like I said earlier I wouldn't be lining up from J in the first place.) What is the point of having such lights if you can't see them?

Why do you think that the section of runway that you're on isn't relevant?

The regulations don't state where the 15m spacing must start either.

Oh, it's not just my current airline but the two previous as well.

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi Lord Spandex Masher,
Why do you think that the section of runway that you're on isn't relevant? Because my ground speed won't be in excess of 60 kts during the acceleration on that section of the runway.

My two previous employers used the rules as written, without telling us how many lights to count. The maths was down to us.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Look, the 15m spaced lights are the ground facilities required. The RVRs are minimum visual ranges required. Two different requirements but they are not mutually exclusive. You need both.

Because my ground speed won't be in excess of 60 kts during the acceleration on that section of the runway.

Really? How can you tell? What about something like a Q400 which will be dong well over 80kts, at lightweights, within 300m. They aren't allowed to do low vis take offs?

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi Lord Spandex Masher,
You need both.
I agree and you will have them both after the touch down point and thereafter.

What about something like a Q400 which will be dong well over 80kts, at lightweights, within 300m.
I don't fly those.
L1011s, B747s A320s are never doing more than 60 kts by the time you can see the 15m lights.

We are going around in circles. I suggest you use your OPS manuals and I'll use mine.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I agree and you will have them both after the touch down point and thereafter.
Not much good there if you've got 400m to go before you see the lights.

I don't fly those.
But many others do. Do you mean to say that they can't carry out LVTOs because they'll be going faster than 60kts before they see the correct center line lights?

Where in your OPS manual does it say that you don't need to see 15m spaced HI center line lights?

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi Lord Spandex Masher,

You seem to have the problem using Juliet at LGW RW 08R during LVOs.
The rest of us don't have a problem.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

It's the same at any displaced threshold if there are no center line lights with 15m spacing, not specifically 08R at Gatwick. Manchester 23R is another.

So to confirm what you are saying:
- If you are doing more than 60kts (where'd that come from anyway?) before you reach the 15m spacing you can't carry out a LVTO?

- To rephrase the other question you ignored - Does your OPS manual state that you require 15m spacing HI center line lights to perform a LVTO?

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi Lord Spandex Masher,
So to confirm what you are saying:
- If you are doing more than 60kts (where'd that come from anyway?) before you reach the 15m spacing you can't carry out a LVTO?
No - I didn't say anything of the sort.
I said I will not be exceeding about 60kts by the time I can see the 15m RWCL lights.

The 60 kts is the RTO speed below which I can ignore stop end RVR reports (if they are below my minimum).
It is assumed we can maintain the runway centre line easily, with reduced visibility, below that speed. Similarly, on take off it is assumed we can maintain the centre line easily (below around 60 kts) with a 90 m visual segment available from the cockpit at the start of the take-off run.

To rephrase the other question you ignored - Does your OPS manual state that you require 15m spacing HI center line lights to perform a LVTO?
I ignored it because the original was a stupid question.
It says "High intensity runway centreline lights spaced 15 m or less and high intensity edge lights spaced 60 m or less are in operation." no more and no less than the current regulations.

[3 Point]

A perennial argument which comes up repeatedly. I've just done a sim course and they insisted that I taxi forward to the beginning of the 15m lights for an LVO TO. Of course I did because you don't want to get into an argument with the TRE on your LST but, really!?!

There is no requirement for me to count lights. If measured RVR is not available in the touchdown zone I may count lights and make an assessment but that's it! Nowhere in EU OPS does it say I must taxi forward to the 15m light; it simply says they must be in operation.

I think I'd make myself very unpopular if I wasted valuable runway time taxying forward before departure at Gatwick, Manchester are any other busy airport just because I read into the rules something which was not there!

I fully accept that those whose minds are made up are unlikely to alter their views because I don't agree with them. Likewise I'm not minded to alter my view; just thought I'd throw one more voice on th ecommon sense side of the debate!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I said I will not be exceeding about 60kts by the time I can see the 15m RWCL lights.

Ah, now it's about 60kts is it?

And if you were? If the displaced threshold is longer? If you're light and empty and accelerate better? And you still haven't stated what others, who will be exceeding 60kts, should do!?

You still need both center line lights and RVRs to start a LVTO. Why else would it be a requirement in EUOPS?

You can't pick and choose chap.

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi Lord Spandex Masher,
And if you were? If the displaced threshold is longer?

I take it that you have never operated out of Manchester during LVOs.
Are you really a pilot?

"Manchester LVOs:
ATC LVP (RVR less than 600m)
- Reversion to a single RWY operation 23R or 05L. For any residual departures from
23L/05R, the centerline lights are spaced at 30m intervals which requires that, except where an AOC (air operator certificate) holder has less restrictive state authorised take-off minima, departures in RVR of less than 400m are not permitted.
- Departing ACFT: ATC will require departing ACFT to use the following CAT III
holding points:
RWY 23R: J1.
RWY 05L: A1."

[8che]

Spandex,

No where in EU-OPS or Part-ops does it mention a requirement to see 6 lights. Never has. It simply states a 90m visual segment. If your manual states that then it is an addition by your company.

3 sets of 30m is perfectly legal as all you are doing is establishing the 90m. To taxi forward and leave perfectly good runway behind is not required. That's the position of the last 5 airlines I have worked for.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

8che, correct, like I've explained previously it is not a company requirement to count 6 lights (nowhere did I say it was either), they are merely clarifying that if there's a 90m visual segment you will see 6 lights. There's a difference.

But that is NOT the only requirement you need to carry out a LVTO.

Rudder, unfortunately I don't carry around a detailed map of Manchester. What's your point? Apart from not being able to answer questions and that 30m spaced centerline lights aren't approved for LVTOs:D

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi Lord Spandex Masher,
What's your point? Apart from not being able to answer questions and that 30m spaced centerline lights aren't approved for LVTOs
Then please explain ATC's logic of using Cat III holding point A1 for RW 05L.
I have provided the following links to "refresh" your memory.

LVO notes: EGCC%20Briefing.pdf (http://www.blackholes.org.uk/PP/EGCC%20Briefing.pdf)

Runway:EGCC%20RWY.pdf (http://www.blackholes.org.uk/PP/EGCC%20RWY.pdf)

Taxi: EGCCtaxi.pdf (http://www.blackholes.org.uk/PP/EGCCtaxi.pdf)

Edit: Thanks 8che & 3 Point.
I agree, I'm completely wasting my time with Spandex and shall not waste any more.

[8che]

Rudderat your wasting your time.

Spandex is simply stuck on transmit and letting the detail of his manuals rule over sound airmanship .

I'll give it one more go.

Spandex for 125m takeoff (or 150m Cat D) when you enter a Cat2/3 runway you will need to see 6 lights or 3 sets of touch down lights ! Either gives you the 90 m you need. Once you have that your telling us you will taxi down a perfectly good runway past the larger and far more easier to see sets of touchdown lights to finally get to your all important 15m centre line lights ? That's ridiculous.

There are airports everywhere that have Cat/2/3 holding points leading onto displaced thresholds. For many that is your only way to enter the runway so how on earth would you then take into account the performance figures for your little trip down the runway ?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Rudder, if you keep ignoring my questions I'll start to think you can't actually answer them.

The logic of using certain holding points in LVPs is to protect the ILS sensitive area. There you go, I've answered your question maybe you will do me the same courtesy.

By the way, your 60kts thing is only relevant for a low vis landing, not take off. There, I've answered one for you, the rest should be easy.

8, ok you've got your 90m however, you still need 15m spaced centerline lights as a requirement for a LVTO, additionally, plus, as well as etc. that is why it is stated in EUOPS as a requirement. Just because you have one DOES NOT mean you don't need the other, to assume so is the ridiculous thing! As was quoted in another post you must meet ALL of the requirements. Not just the ones you fancy meeting.

As far as performance goes I'm sure even the likes of you can work that one out.

Why does EUOPS state a requirement for 15m spacing HI centerline lights if the "touch down" lights are adequate?

[8che]

Spandex your not getting it !

Yes you have to have 15m centre line lighting to perform the takeoff we are in total agreement over that. What you don't do is taxi down the runway to get to them if you already see at least 3 sets of very large touchdown lights in front of you ! The reason you need to have the centre line lighting is because that's a legal MINIMUM. You are not going to have the far larger touchdown lights all the way down the runway are you. So at some point on the takeoff you sure will need those minimum 15m centre lights. The lighting system all joins to together if you look at it.

and as far as performance goes well no we wouldn't be able to work it out would we if you have taxied past the only point it was based on.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Yes you have to have 15m centre line lighting to perform the takeoff we are in total agreement over that.

Just quoting that because now I'm not sure what you're arguing about.

It's a legal requirement to have 15m centerline lights. Although you've agreed you legally need 15m lights to perform a LVTO you're adamant that you're not going to use them initially?

You are, surely, pulling my leg now. You base your performance on the length of runway available from the correct point. Simple, even for you.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

That's not proof!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

How is that relevant to being able to see the 15m centerline lights before accelerating past 60kts? Which is what Rudderthing was using to justify not needing to meet the legal lighting requirements for a LVTO.

Once you've rejected a take off you're not taking off anymore, are you?!

[8che]

Spandex,

My problem is you saying you have to taxi down a runway first to see a centre line light before you commence takeoff.

A blazing set of Cat3 touchdown lights is superior to just 15m centre lights. We need the 15m centre lights because for some part of the takeoff you will use them. That's why they are needed as a basic minimum. Let me put it another way. Where in EU-OPS does it say you must commence the takeoff from the first 15m centre light ? It says you commence takeoff when you have established a visual cue of 90 m

Do you always use the legally required red stop end lights on a every night takeoff ? No. but must you have them because its a legal requirement yes. Do you always use the standby power system for the ILS ? No. but must you have it because its a legal requirement yes.

You base your performance on a formally declared TODA which is based on particular published holding points. In many cases that has nothing to do with the beginning of the runway threshold hence you would bust your performance with no way to recalculate.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

You know when people jump in halfway through a conversation and make an arse of themselves...

Well dear Rudderthing wasn't talking about a rejected take off was he. Which is why I said, and I quote, "your 60kts thing".

You understand the difference between accelerating to 60kts and decelerating to 60kts I hope.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

8
A blazing set of Cat3 touchdown lights is superior to just 15m centre lights. We need the 15m centre lights because for some part of the takeoff you will use them. That's why they are needed as a basic minimum. Let me put it another way. Where in EU-OPS does it say you must commence the takeoff from the first 15m centre light ? It says you commence takeoff when you have established a visual cue of 90 m

Hang on, where are the touch down lights in relation to the displaced threshold? You need the 15m lights and the 90m visual segment and etc.. Not just one, or two or whatever you feel like. Where in EUOPS does it say you only need the 90m segment?

You base your performance on a formally declared TODA which is based on particular published holding points. In many cases that has nothing to do with the beginning of the runway threshold hence you would bust your performance with no way to recalculate.

It's called EFB. Runway shortening XXXm from the beginning or the end. Calculate.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Just quoting this post as it's easier than cut and paste.

Where does it say you only need to meet one of these requirements?

EU-OPS about 125 m take offs:

(i) Subject to the approval of the Authority, and provided the requirements in paragraphs (A) to (E) below have been satisfied, an operator may reduce the take-off minima to 125 m RVR (Category A, B and C aeroplanes) or 150 m RVR (Category D aeroplanes) when:
(A) Low visibility procedures are in force;
(B) High intensity runway centreline lights spaced 15 m or less and high intensity edge lights spaced 60 m or less are in operation;
(C) Flight crew members have satisfactorily completed training in a flight simulator;
(D) A 90 m visual segment is available from the cockpit at the start of the take-off run; and
(E) The required RVR value has been achieved for all of the relevant RVR reporting points.

My understanding is that pilot assessment cannot replace RVR readings for take-offs in 125 m visibility. And taking the book literally I guess you need 15 meter spacing from the start of your take off. But this is not the case at LGW you say?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

John, go and read the thread again paying particular attention to Rudderthings posts. That is the 60kts thing I am referring to. We are NOT talking about RTOs.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Hi Lord Spandex Masher,
Because my ground speed won't be in excess of 60 kts during the acceleration on that section of the runway.

My two previous employers used the rules as written, without telling us how many lights to count. The maths was down to us.

Never mind, I'll quote it for you and highlight the relevant bit.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Thanks for your contribution though:ok:

[8che]

Touchdown lights continue up to 3000 ft after the threshold on a cat2/3 runway !

Yes you have to have 15m lights on the runway and working. Where does it say you have to establish the 90m visual only with the use of 15m centre line lighting ?

At what point did I suggest removing any of those requirements ?

So now you are going to manually adjust your EFB outside the declared holding point distances in LVP's are you.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Seriously John, thanks.


Relevant Runway Visual Range
Take-off
RVR for that part of the runway used to accelerate to V1 followed by a rejected take-off and deceleration down to a speed of approximately 60 knots.


So Rudderthing, doesn't have relevant RVRs OR the legal lighting requirements if he's starting from the beginning of the threshold as there are no RVRs reported until the TDZ. :=

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Touchdown lights continue up to 3000 ft after the threshold on a cat2/3 runway !

Yep, the displaced threshold. If you're starting your roll from the beginning of the Tarmac then you haven't even got touch down lights have you?

Yes you have to have 15m lights on the runway and working. Where does it say you have to establish the 90m visual only with the use of 15m centre line lighting ?

It doesn't say that. It says that you need both.

So now you are going to manually adjust your EFB are you outside the declared holding point distances in LVP's are you.

Not sure what you mean by outside? Obviously we use the worst case.

[8che]

and you do have both for the 4th time !

15m centre line lights plus a 90m segment. They don't turn the centre line lights off because I used the touchdown lights to ascertain the 90m visual do they ?.

Cat2/3 approach lights on a displaced threshold are also set at 30m barretts. So no difference is there

[Lord Spandex Masher]

You only have both by the time you've gone 400m, in the case of 08R at least. You think it's acceptable to be charging off for quarter of a mile without relevant RVRs AND lighting when you can only see 90m? And you can't tell me you can see the correct lights through 400m of fog either, how'd you know they're even working?!

Barrett's aren't centerline lights though are they?

[8che]

Well even if you do your strange taxi how do you know there working at the midpoint or stop end ?

barretts are an acceptable means of establishing a 90 m visual segment. You need to see 3 of them. There lights just like your centre line lights. Used for runway navigation. Are you aware of the famous cases of aircraft lining up on the runway edge lights thinking they were the centre lights. Never happened when visual with the approach/touchdown lights. You stick to your legal minimum philosophy and I'll stick to mine.

and when did I say you you could go without relevant RVR's

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I think it's safe to assume that if you can see that the lights are working then they're working.

Yes you can measure 90m with Barrett's but they still don't meet the 15m spacing requirement do they?

and when did I say you you could go without relevant RVR's

Where are the the RVRs reported? TDZ, MID, STOPEND. Wheres your RVR report for the displaced threshold?

[8che]

Are you for real ?

How is 3 x 30 different to 6 x 15. Either you have 90m or you don't.

Touchdown RVR is catered for by the specific LVP holding points approved by the authority for LVP departures irrespective of displaced threshold. If that threshold was to be a problem the affected holding point wouldn't have been approved for runway line up in the first place.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Get off the 90m thing will you. I don't care how you work it out. But you need that AND 15m centerline lights. Look at the damn requirements. You can't just ignore some of them.

Specific LVP holding points are for ILS protection. They are not a suggestion of where you should depart from.

So you've still got an unassessed section of runway, no relevant RVR and you are not meeting the lighting requirements for a LVTO. Yet you're still going are you?

[bucks_raj]

I had the same question asked to me in an intvu

No where is it mentioned if it is allowed or it is not allowed.
However all LVP documents mention standard taxi routes to take for Arr as well as DEP
VIDP has LVP for 4 Months starting DEC to FEB.
If one happens to see the jepps for it Rwy29 is equipd for LVP and the taxi takes you to Z2 . Which happens to be an intersection. It is the standard taxi taken/Given/Accepted to one and all DOM/INTL/GA op's

Rwy 29 has a 3k ft displaced thrsld.

[8che]

Well Bucks this Spandex character wants to taxi all the way down that 3000ft displaced threshold until he sees his 15 M centre line light. Therefore having no runway left to take off on !

Interview failed for him.

LVP holding points are most certainly designed for line up ground operations as well as arrivals with strict line up lighting system for that too. Spandex you don't have the first clue what you are talking about and are staring to embarrass yourself.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Read what he wrote 8. You don't get to line up at the beginning of the runway so no need to taxy all the way down the 3000' displacement. Why is there no runway left? Is the runway only 3000' long? Nope, it's 12,500'. You've forgotten your lesson about performance haven't you.

Hold points are for ILS protection. They are where you enter the runway from, if you don't satisfy all the requirements for LVTO you can't depart. End of story.

Still, if you want to depart without relevant RVRs AND lighting then your choice. Wrong, but your choice.

[FullWings]

This comes around every now and then in our airline, usually when the AWOPS part of the sim ends up at LGW. I have canvassed the opinions of other line pilots, trainers and standards guys: the main consensus seems to be that you could *interpret* the rules (as there is no statement as such) to mean you have to taxi forward until you get to an area of 15m lighting but in reality it would be a pointless thing to do, as you've already assessed the visibility as being adequate from where you're starting from, otherwise you wouldn't be taking off. Most of the TREs regard it as an interesting discussion point, rather than a pass/fail item. Practicality is the word here.

Interestingly, I've just looked at the NATS documentation for LGW and it seems like the whole of the runway is now 15m spacing - any LGW regulars able to confirm/refute that? ATC certainly expect you to be able to use M/M3 in LVPs...

[Lord Spandex Masher]

You can't use pilot assessment if RVRs are below 150m. Minimum reported RVRs of 125m are required for the ENTIRE take off run which you won't have on a displaced threshold.

[172_driver]

Ok, so the 15 m CL thing has been done to death now. I see both sides, Spandex vs. The Others. Depends on 1) How you interpret the rules and 2) How strictly you apply the rules, as someone said their is a blazing set of CAT3 lights for orientation even if you technically don't have 15 m spaced CL lights.

So next question. Can RVR readings be substituted by pilot assesment for 125 m LVTO? I am not talking about the 90 m visual segment, but the actual RVR measureing.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

172, no you can't. You need reported RVRs for the entire take off run if the RVRs are below 150m. Ergo, you must start your take off at a position which has a reported RVR.

Thus the implication is that you can't start your take off at the beginning of the runway if there is a displaced threshold because you're not meeting ALL of the requirements for a take off below 150m RVR. Furthermore, you still need the 90m visual segment which equates to 6 lights if you're starting at the correct point.

[FullWings]

You can't use pilot assessment if RVRs are below 150m. Minimum reported RVRs of 125m are required for the ENTIRE take off run which you won't have on a displaced threshold.

From our Part A (UK airline):

"Pilot assessment of TDZ RVR when practical always overrides the reported TDZ RVR or Met Visibility."

Hmmm. So it seems to be operator specific, as all these Part A references being quoted are approved by the regulator...

[Lord Spandex Masher]

FW, but you can't replace reported RVR with pilot assessment if any of the RVRs are below take off minima.

For example, if you are given an RVR of 120m everything else is irrelevant. Even if you have a 90m visual segment you can't take off.

If you are given a TDZ RVR of 140, ie less than 150m, you can't start the take off run on a displaced threshold because that RVR isn't relevant to that part of the runway. You need to start the take off run at the relevant point, TDZ, which happens to mean that you'll see 15m centerline lights.

[FullWings]

FW, but you can't replace reported RVR with pilot assessment if any of the RVRs are below take off minima.
We can. And do, certainly in the sim. In real life the airport generally grinds to a stop with that kind of vis.

If I was given RVRs of 50/75/50 at LGW, from A/A3 (the 15m spacing is a separate discussion) and I assessed the TDZ visibility as 75m or more, I could take off, according to our manual. What other operators do, I don't know but I've done this with the CAA in the back with no complaint...

[Lord Spandex Masher]

FW, yes I meant if any of the other RVRs are below take off minima, mid point and stop end. Even if you assess the initial take off run as adequate you can't go.

[Musket90]

If it's any use to know the required runway centreline lights intensity is 5,000 candela whereas approach lighting is 20,000, so with 30m spaced approach lights pre-landing threshold without the runway centreline lights there's maybe just as much chance of having the required visual reference for take-off with the higher intensity approach lights.

Gatwick 26L has a starter extension between Mike and Alpha so no runway centreline lights in this portion required (not sure why), also not sure at 08R end if Juliet to runway landing threshold has runway centreline lights, but if not maybe there should be as it's a full width runway between these two points.

Manchester's runway 05L/23R is about to have 15m spaced centreline lights (for take-off) installed pre-landing threshold at either end. This is in addition to the 30m spaced approach lights already there.

[bucks_raj]

The only Three RVR's ever reported are TDZ MID and RO
In any case the TDZ rvr becomes ir-relevent as soon as you choose to do and intersection departure.I have so far not come acrross any field where the LVP published gives line up at a point for which RVR is not available .So in any case be it VIDP or any place the line up (Now I THink so) will always happen at a position near the TDZ, as per published LVP procedure.

It certainly gets me to another Question - Are all taxi tracks and routes available during LVP.

[BARKINGMAD]

As we lose count of the number of lights various we may or may not see at 60kts or otherwise, I recall in a UK company with a UK TRE operating UK CAA approved procedures, we were told that a rated thrust takeoff may be considered better in LVPs as you would have more distance to stop in crap vis and the V1 would be lower.

It also provided greater swing tendency in the event of the inevitable RTO or EFATO, so testing our ability to stay on the runway or get airborne safely with this extra handling difficulty.

Has this advice been blown out of UK tests and would the lights counters like to ponder the wisdom or otherwise of such training?

Just a thought to sway the topic away from your OM versus my OM!! :suspect:

P S. Obviously the wise pilot wants as much runway in front of them in conditions such as these.........................................