Improving RT skills

[vegancruiser]

Does anyone know of any 'good' interactive RT training software/apps suitable for use on a Mac computer, iPad or iPhone? I need to improve my RT skills in preparation for my practical test and could do with some help, over and above the written material available. So far I've been unsuccessful in finding anything myself.

[mad_jock]

Don't worry about it.

In some ways the test itself is very false.

The only way to really improve is practise. You can get people that are word perfect when they are on the ground not flying. Put them in an aircraft and as soon as the tit is pressed garbage comes out of there mouth.

[Localiser]

Get a scanner and listen into ATC at a nearby airport/airfield. Become immersed. Listen to others. Quickly you will be able to qualify who sounds bad, who sounds good and critique effectively. Which should improve your own RT.

Hope that helps. Merely a suggestion of course. :ok:

[Piper.Classique]

Make sure you can hear the radio properly. One of the best investments you can make is a quality headset. ANR for preference, get a good one and it will last out your flying career.

[Desert185]

Get a scanner and listen into ATC at a nearby airport/airfield. Become immersed. Listen to others. Quickly you will be able to qualify who sounds bad, who sounds good and critique effectively. Which should improve your own RT.


That was my thought. Invest in a handheld and park by an airport with a thermos of coffee and a sandwich. The handheld is an education tax writeoff and a good piece of kit for the future. Killing two or three birds there...

[Cusco]

Don't waste your money on a scanner:

If you are going to be flying post PPL then invest a few more squids and get a proper 2-way handheld transceiver.

It might come in handy sometime during your flying career.

(I use mine regularly to get the departure ATIS to avoid the need to fire up the a/c radios till after engine start)

There's one going cheap over on the Flyer Forum 'Aviation Stuff for Sale' right now

[Contact Approach]

Get on Vatsim: VATSIM United Kingdom Division (http://www.vatsim-uk.co.uk)

[Pilot.Lyons]

Cant find that on flyer forum? Do you have a link?

[riverrock83]

Cant find that on flyer forum? Do you have a link?

FLYER Forums ? View topic - Icom A22e hand held transceiver (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=86151)

The A22e is an old model with a large NiCad battery but it does the job.

[Steve6443]

Agree with Cusco, a transceiver is much more use. I bought an Icom A6E and had it switched on whilst driving to work etc, listening to the chatter and trying to understand what they were saying and why, anticipating the response and how I would reply. It did help, nowadays I use it for ATIS and request start up clearances and the like so it's not a wasted expense.

Probably the best tip from my RT instructor was to adopt a form of shorthand and jot things on a blank piece of paper in the plane: might seem common sense to most of us here but I've flown with so many other pilots who, although they possess pen and paper, do not write things down but try to do it from memory - not good if you're at the Apron and the controller advises you to "taxi to Holding Point runway 24 via Taxiway Golf, Bravo, Alpha, A1 Hold Short Runway 33." Try writing that down. Before you've got "Holding Point" written completely, you're lost and nothing is guaranteed to annoy a controller quicker than hearing "say again" 3 times.

However if you were to just write

// R24 G B A A1 // R33

you could write that in time with the controller. Using my particular shorthand, those scribbles tells me to read back:

Taxi to Holding Point Runway 24 via Golf, Bravo Alpha Alpha 1, hold short Runway 33.

The same is true with clearances - for example, if I'm cleared for transit through the CTR not above 3000 feet, I'll write "T CTR 3000" and draw a line above the 3000, (or below, if the instruction is not below 3000) so that I know I'm clear to transit the CTR up to that height (or below, if I've drawn the line below).

Or joining a circuit,

R24 RH, F998 rRD

would tell me to read back

Runway 24 in use, right hand circuit, QFE 998 (or N1008 if the strip uses QNH), report Right Downwind.

There are so many little tips and tricks you can adopt for your shorthand, for example, when contacting a radar service, you know you'll be given the QNH and a Squawk which you need to read back - so just be prepared with the letters S and Q jotted on your notepad and write the requisite numbers afterwards.

At the end of the day, most of R/T is about repeating what the ATC has told you to do and if you can jot everything down shorthand style, anticipating what he'll say, you'll not have a problem repeating his instructions.

And don't worry, practice does make perfect.....

[Whopity]

Listening to live RT is probably the worst thing you can do prior to a RT Test. Firstly, you should have practiced the necessary RT as part of your training either in the air or in the class room. The purpose of the test is to see if you know how to do it correctly, not to see if you can copy all the bad habits you heard on the air. A typical RT course will last about 16 hours, then you should be proficient and find the test quite straightforward.

[vegancruiser]

Some great advice here - thanks guys!

Steve6443, I think your shorthand ideas will be particularly helpful to me, since I am struggling to remember just a squawk code and QNH at the moment!

[mad_jock]

Listen to Whopity he is 100% right in my opinion.

Real life RT just gets in the way of the test.

The main issue is people read back way to much.

Learn you mandatory readbacks

Everything else can be dealt with, with Roger and wilco.

[Steve6443]

Mad Jock: as far as I know, everything except wind is mandatory - at least I can't seem to recall anything which ATC might tell you which is non mandatory????

For example:

"D-KC, Runway 24, cleared to Land, wind 240 20knots, caution wake turbulence."

I would read back as

"D-KC, Runway 24, cleared to land, caution wake turbulence."

I chose that particular example because some would say wake turbulence is an advisory and doesn't need to be repeated, that only instructions need to be confirmed yet whenever I land in Germany at larger airfields, if I don't read back "caution wake turbulence", you can guarantee that tower will then say "D-KC, confirm caution wake turbulence".

This could also be "caution, gilders / parachuters / radio controlled models in the vicinity" at smaller airfields.

Having said that, I did my PPL in Germany and have a BZF, not the UK FRTOL so maybe there are variations? It could also be that my memory is failing me in my old age ;)

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

Vegancruiser,

As with many exams, RT only bears a limited resemblance to the real world. But you probably know that already. I’d agree with comments from the posters above about getting a hand held radio and listening to comms. I’m not convinced that you will pick up bad habits, but I’m sure you will soon be able to identify them.

You might like to take advantage of a ‘Visit ATC Day’ as mentioned elsewhere on the forum. Although this doesn’t have an immediate effect on your RT Exam, it does show why your RT should be of a good standard.

On a visit to Farnborough the ATCO who was showing us round gave us a quick ‘test’ at the end. Everyone was given two flight progress strips. We filled in the first one with him pretending to be a ‘normal’ private pilot. The second one we filled in with him doing the call in the approved format. Guess which one was filled in better…

[mad_jock]

I would say.

for your example

"D-KC, Runway 24, cleared to Land, wind 240 20knots, caution wake turbulence."

"roger, 24, cleared to land, D-KC"

roger to say I have received and understood the wake turb info.

24 because the runway in use is a mandatory readback.

the clearance which is again mandatory,

then the callsign so everyone knows I have stopped speaking.

But to be honest the best way of doing RT is get a big room and pretend to be an aircraft. Stick some bits of paper on the floor to pretend to be airports and then pretend to fly around and do the RT a bonus is someone at the side who can pretend to be ATS.


n Taxi instructions
n Level instructions
n Heading instructions
n Speed instructions
n Airways/route clearances
n Approach clearances
n Runway in use
n Any runway clearance
n SSR operating instructions
n Altimeter settings
n VDF information
n Frequency changes
n Type of radar service
n Transition level.

That's the only mandatory read back items.

Its up for debate if asked to "report passing 4000ft" comes under level instruction or can be replied with "wilco" Personally I just give it "wilco" and haven't had ATC say anything. But some pilots and examiners think you should. I have flown in Germany and didn't have any issues with not reading wind shear or wake turb warnings back.

[Jonzarno]

I am struggling to remember just a squawk code and QNH at the moment!

You are not alone: I fly about 250 hours a year and don't even try to remember them. Frequencies are even worse (did he say 122.425 or 124.25?)

My advice is don't try to remember them: write them down. That's one of the main reasons you need a knee pad.

Fluency is also an important part of being professional on the radio. When I was starting out, I used to practice radio calls out loud at home trying to sound as confident and fluent as the pros I heard when flying with my instructor. I felt a bit silly practising, but it did help a lot.

Best of luck with this! :ok:

[vegancruiser]

"Quote:
I am struggling to remember just a squawk code and QNH at the moment!
You are not alone: I fly about 250 hours a year and don't even try to remember them. Frequencies are even worse (did he say 122.425 or 124.25?)

My advice is don't try to remember them: write them down. That's one of the main reasons you need a knee pad.

Fluency is also an important part of being professional on the radio. When I was starting out, I used to practice radio calls out loud at home trying to sound as confident and fluent as the pros I heard when flying with my instructor. I felt a bit silly practising, but it did help a lot.

Best of luck with this!"

...Roger!

Sorry, don't know how to quote from posts (instructions in FAQ's are not valid)

[mad_jock]

There is another trick which is dial it in before you read it back then read back what you have set.

And if the sod gives you more than 3 bits of info do the first three things and read back then ask them to "say again"

[Steve6443]

.....unless it's weather like yesterday, was trying to enter a squawk whilst the plane was bucking and jumping around..... the transponder in the PA28 I was flying is over on the far right so by the time I'd got the squawk in correctly and was able to read it back, no doubt the ATC would be asking to confirm I'd copied the squawk....:p

[mad_jock]

Aye and tell them to standby if you have to.

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.

I had one who I told to standby and when they came back 5 seconds later I ignored them. When I was sorted they asked if I had a problem which was replied to with "yes there is someone on frequency who doesn't know what standby means"

[Pilot.Lyons]

Cant find that on flyer forum? Do you have a link?

FLYER Forums ? View topic - Icom A22e hand held transceiver (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=86151)

The A22e is an old model with a large NiCad battery but it does the job.

Brill thanks

[piperboy84]

If you cant remember squaks and frequencies, wear a small kneeboard and write em down,

My FI used to say to me repeatedly when I was learning to fly in the LA basin
"Cut to the chase and tell em Who you are, Where your are and What you want, and don't tie up the frequency waffling a load of sh&t"

I remember departing from Oakland airport in the Bay Area many years ago, I was trying to impress the chic in the right seat with my knowledge of the area by yabbering on to Clearance/Delivery a complicated intended departure route request that involved seeing the bridges,San Fran and Alcatraz etc, at the end of this long winded request the controller responds with a decidedly bored tone by saying "Your want the tour right?". I guess i wasn't the first guy to do some sightseeing on the departure.

[Steve6443]

Mad Jock: love it......

[Whopity]

and tell em Who you are, Where your are and What you want, and don't tie up the frequency waffling a load of sh&t" And don't forget the 20 second rule: Any message can be passed in 20 seconds, if you have pressed the button for 20 seconds let go you are waffling!

[vegancruiser]

Just want to emphasise that I'm not only concentrating my efforts in passing the RT practical test, but rather developing this essential skill for all my aviation to come.

I often listen to LiveATC in conjunction with Flightradar24 - very enlightening! The mutterings and stumblings I hear are at least helping to increase my confidence. I don't think I'm very likely to pick up bad habits by listening to ATC in this way since, on the advice of my flight instructor and RT examiner, I'm focussed on picking up good habits by studying the relevant information in CAP 413, its GA supplement and SafetySense leaflet 22D.

I'm quite confident with the RT calls required at my airfield, both on the ground and when staying in the circuit (I'm currently in the circuit consolidation phase of my training). The stumblings begin after I switch to the LARS service on departing the circuit which, to be fair, I haven't done very much of; I may well get myself a scanner and spend some time listening in to the LARS exchanges. I'm knocking at the door of my first local navigation exercises and I'd like to be prepared in advance as much as possible.

As advised, I'm definitely going to write everything down in future utilising, where appropriate, the shorthand system outlined by Steve6443.

Incidentally, as covered in the following thread, I'm thinking seriously about going somewhere else to complete my training, since the weather here is proving too prohibitive to my progress:
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/526007-my-dilemma.html

Thanks again for the replies. You've all been of great help and all the advice will benefit me.


Mike

[The_Pink_Panther]

As many have testified here, listening to other GA traffic is a double edged sword. Listening makes you more tuned into to the normal pattern of exchange, but also exposes you to everyone else’s bad habits.

Before I’d even sat my RT exam, I remember flying the entire downwind leg rejoining the circuit at my home airfield, unable to call G-XX downwind" due to a departing aircraft giving the CAA text book version of what NOT to do, “Yep, thanks, got that, rolling now, thanks for the great bacon sandwiches, lovely to see you again… bla bla bla.., thanks for the fuel uplift …bla bla bla, looking forward to dropping in again on our way back, hope the weather’s good for it then, bye-bye for now”

Hopefully you’re far enough into your training to spot those things and know what to do. My FI had a real pet hate of other people’s bad RT and would always make a point of telling me what should have been said by others, not just when I got it wrong.

[2 sheds]

I had one who I told to standby and when they came back 5 seconds later I ignored them. When I was sorted they asked if I had a problem which was replied to with "yes there is someone on frequency who doesn't know what standby means"
Well, that should cement good working relationships! Perhaps - just perhaps - your transmission was not heard or was misheard, for a variety of possible reasons?

2 s

[kingmomo]

Dont waste your money on scanner or anything
Just use this website Listen to Live ATC (Air Traffic Control) Communications | LiveATC.net (http://www.liveatc.net/)
Listen out to pilots talking , and try to catch up with them , imagine your self with them use a pen and paper too

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

If you have a lot of spare time you might enjoy the ATC Humour (http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/59309-atc-humour-merged.html) thread (77 pages and counting). This includes MJ’s guide to unofficial WX forecasts at ABZ (Post # 1490). Some of it is so esoteric as to be an in-joke between three people. Some of it is repetitive and cycles through the same stories every couple of years. As actual training its value is somewhat limited, as background information and entertainment it’s unsurpassed.

[mr_rodge]

Get on Vatsim: VATSIM United Kingdom Division

I'm intrigued by this, but unsure if it's worth the time & effort in setting up a sim to take part... How active is the ATC on there? Is it good for VFR light aircraft or more for airways flying i.e. can I log on, take off with blind calls from an A/G airfield and get a LARS from the nearest participating ATSU?

Sorry if this post is seen as a hijack... just interested.

Thanks!

[mad_jock]

Aye it did 2 Sheds I haven't spoken to that unit since.

The bint had given me 2 current RQNH the 2 new ones on the hour. Her MATZ QFE and a request for an ETA of some local point I didn't have a clue about. All while I was at FL60 all in one call.

5 seconds after "standby" there was a demand for a readback.

I never bothered phoning them when requested to either. The multiple chuckles transmitted after my comment including a couple who were obviously on masks was maybe a bit to much for her.