How STRONG is a 757 ?

[Stan Woolley]

What would it be like at 500kts indicated,low level in a B757 ?

And being around 150kts above Vne,what are the chances of breaking up ? (Assuming you're being gentle on the G - or not?)

What do the boeing test pilots do as a matter of course ? (Indicated)

What is the fastest a Boeing has ever flown and survived ?

[PeePeerune]

Why?.

And why a 757 in particular?.

Not being awkward, just interested in the reasons.

[Clandestino]

Twelve years have passed and folks still don't give up.

[GlueBall]

Don't know about the B757, but the DC-8 had "survived" Mach-1

The DC-8 Supersonic Flight (http://www.dc-8jet.com/0-dc8-sst-flight.htm)

[Dufo]

Let's calculate dynamic pressure for max design speed and 500 kts indicated at sea level in standard conditions.

At 350 KIAS it is 3.11 psi
At 500 KIAS it is 6.34 psi
; which is more than a double

I would say this is above elastic modulus ((design x 1,5) x 1,15 if I remember correctly) for a structure of this type and permanent damage would occur.

[Stan Woolley]

Clandestino

You're right ,I was reading about 9/11.

I also flew the 757/767 and got to thinking what it would be like at 500kts.

Have you anything useful to say ?

Dufo

Thanks. It might be permanently out of service but would a critical bit break off ? I think it would be noisy :eek:

[jimjim1]

Glueball mentioned

The DC-8 Supersonic Flight

Thanks, well worth a read.

It seems to have been not entirely without incident.

Supersonic flight was achieved in a 20 degree dive.

"however the initial application of full up elevator did not appear to produce any noticeable change in the load factor"

They recovered by using the pitch trim. All moving tail trim? Reading between the lines I sort of guess that this was expected really - but still.

"A severe rudder pedal "buzz" was apparent ... from the oscillograph records ... The rudder control tab maximum movement was recorded as 21.3 degrees double amplitude, at a frequency of approximately 28 CPS."

Not sure what "double amplitude" means but it is still a large movement.

[Clandestino]

Have you anything useful to say ?1. If you are planning on totalizing your aeroplane at the end of the high speed low pass, there is no point in worrying about long term effects of busting maximum demonstrated speed.

2. this was discussed many times at length here by folks who know a lot about certification testing. Conclusion was it was quite possible for 757 to reach 500 kt practically undamaged. That didn't deter conspiracy theorists, though and it would be even worse if some Buck Rogers wannabe imagines that means he can go through Vmo without consequences.

3. you might find more receptive audience at sites with black background and banners screaming about government keeping us in dark.

I would say this is above elastic modulus ((design x 1,5) x 1,15 if I remember correctly) for a structure of this type and permanent damage would occur. True only if permanent damage occurs at speed needed to be demonstrated for certification+1kt. In real life you test to requirement and don't care whether your radome collapses or windshield busts or leading edge curls down at that speed plus one or plus fifty. There is such a ting as the overbuilt aeroplane.

[cockney steve]

Not sure what "double amplitude" means but it is still a large movement

Either side of neutral? IE 21.3 * left and the same right, total oscillation excursion =42.6 ?

[OutsideCAS]

Hitting a bird at low level might be a little interesting around the 500kts mark.....

[DozyWannabe]

Added to which, a 757 on a low pass at full chat doesn't sound like you might expect it to - those RB211s make some serious noise!

Boeing 757 - High Speed Low Pass! All Out. - YouTube

She acquired the nickname "Mighty" because she was considerably over-powered compared to other types - those engines were originally designed for the much larger and heavier L-1011 TriStar. The RNZAF (see video) have become well-known for displaying their 757s as handling almost like fighters.

[Stan Woolley]

Actually I was thinking about the wind noise in the cockpit when I said it would be loud.

What a great sound & low pass !

It makes a distinctive sound when you press TOGA on take -off. Can't remember similar - maybe the A320 ? Can't imagine that wheezy old trout making the same noise as the Mighty 757 ! ( No offence ) :ok:

[DozyWannabe]

It makes a distinctive sound when you press TOGA on take -off. Can't remember similar - maybe the A320 ? Can't imagine that wheezy old trout making the same noise as the Mighty 757 ! ( No offence ) :ok:

Oh, the A320 can be spectacular in her own way, but one thing she isn't is overpowered - she was designed as a pure short-haul type, whereas the B757 was designed for medium-haul, and with the coming of ETOPS has even been used as a long-haul type in her later years. The 757 is definitely one of my favourites of the B types, but the things that made her mighty also made her less economical to run in most use cases as time passed.

[flyingchanges]

That is still the best flyby ever.

[DozyWannabe]

That is still the best flyby ever.

Oh, I dunno - I suspect the VC-10 at White Waltham edges it:

http://www.abpic.co.uk/images/images/1028300M.jpg

Alas there is no film or video of that one extant.

[doubleu-anker]

Ah the DC 8. They don't make planes like that anymore! Nor the 707 or VC10 for that matter.

As for going supersonic, they were probably lucky to have got away with it. Due to the rapid and large C of P change, a fully flying tail plane is necessary. Using pitch trim was the next best thing, albeit slow, for longitudinal control.

[DozyWannabe]

They don't make planes like that anymore! Nor the 707 or VC10 for that matter.

Actually, Airbus have taken a leaf out of the VC-10 book when to comes to attaching the main gear to the A350XWB:

Pictures: Airbus adopts Vickers VC10 landing gear concept for A350 XWB (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pictures-airbus-adopts-vickers-vc10-landing-gear-concept-for-a350-xwb-214238/)

Anyways - sorry - back on-topic!

[Ozlander1]

They took a B-52 supersonic in level flight. Bent the wings. :=

[tdracer]

I saw flight test data from the 747-8 flutter testing at Mach 0.98 to 0.99.

Really plays havoc with some of the sensors.....

[KRviator]

Didn't that China Airlines 747SP get close to, or exceed, Mach 1 during its upset, they just didn't have the DFDR data to prove it?

Iv'e got a book somewhere that claims they probably exceeded the speed of sound but the flight recorder wasn't working during the periods it would have - convenient?

[Desert185]

"Ah the DC 8. They don't make planes like that anymore!"

As much as I like Boeing stuff, the 8 is my favorite. When the US guvmint gets their act together, checkout www.nasa.gov/dc-8 (http://www.nasa.gov/dc-8). It will probably be the only DC-8 flying in the US sometime next year, and it is really more of a flying science lab than an airliner. Great history, too. Alitalia and Braniff as a -62, then the last Cammacorp kit converting it to a -72 with NASA.

[Smilin_Ed]

As for going supersonic, they were probably lucky to have got away with it.

About four decades ago I monitored a contract with Douglas to provide aircraft for a project which they fulfilled with B-47 airframes. As the B-47s became unsupportable due to age, we asked Douglas to propose replacement airframes. They proposed used DC-8s. When we asked them to assure us of the structural integrity of the nominated planes they removed the wings from one and subjected the spar and other structural elements to detailed metallurgical analysis. The result: They could not detect that the plane had ever been flown. We accepted the planes as adequate for our purposes.:)

[DozyWannabe]

I saw flight test data from the 747-8 flutter testing at Mach 0.98 to 0.99.

Really plays havoc with some of the sensors.....

That's when you need some diesel oil and lamp black:
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/426900-concorde-engine-intake-thrust-4.html#post5937737

Didn't that China Airlines 747SP get close to, or exceed, Mach 1 during its upset, they just didn't have the DFDR data to prove it?

Iv'e got a book somewhere that claims they probably exceeded the speed of sound but the flight recorder wasn't working during the periods it would have - convenient?

They wouldn't have had a DFDR on a 747SP of that vintage, and the lateral loads generated during the spiral dive would likely have rendered the airspeed data somewhat suspect. Said lateral loads would have had far more to contribute to the damage than exceeding Mach 1.

@Desert185/Smilin' Ed : While I'm sure the Diesel 8 was tough, I suspect that the VC-10 and Trident were tougher. The Achilles' heel of Douglas designs was that ergonomically and technologically they were somewhat behind the competition.

[tdracer]

They wouldn't have had a DFDR on a 747SP of that vintage, and the lateral loads generated during the spiral dive would likely have rendered the airspeed data somewhat suspect. Said lateral loads would have had far more to contribute to the damage than exceeding Mach 1.

My understanding of that event was that most of the damage was done by the high g's they pulled when they pulled out of the dive.

Speed indications on any subsonic airplane that goes 'supersonic' would be highly suspect - shocks form around the airspeed probes and as I noted, can really cause havoc with some of the readings. During flight test we have special, dedicated instrumentation to measure things like static and total pressures to very high accuracy - something we wouldn't worry about on an airplane that's never supposed to exceed Mach 0.90

[DozyWannabe]

My understanding of that event was that most of the damage was done by the high g's they pulled when they pulled out of the dive.

Entirely plausible, and not inconsistent with what I was suggesting! :)

[Desert185]

"The Achilles' heel of Douglas designs was that ergonomically and technologically they were somewhat behind the competition." :rolleyes:

We're talking a 1958 design. You don't fly, right? :)

[doubleu-anker]

I opened the NSA website and got this:

"Due to the lapse in federal government funding, this website is not available.
We sincerely regret this inconvenience."

:}

[Desert185]

"When the US guvmint gets their act together..."

NASA, not NSA, BTW.

[DozyWannabe]

"The Achilles' heel of Douglas designs was that ergonomically and technologically they were somewhat behind the competition." :rolleyes:

We're talking a 1958 design. You don't fly, right? :)

I was just stating an opinion drawn from what I know. I'm aware a lot of pilots - especially those of the old school - tend to have a lot of love for Douglas, but from an engineering perspective their designs erred towards the conservative, even by 1958 standards. Perhaps the two factors are related!

[Desert185]

I'm aware a lot of pilots - especially those of the old school - tend to have a lot of love for Douglas, but from an engineering perspective their designs erred towards the conservative, even by 1958 standards.

Not to be argumentative, but from a pilot's standpoint the rock solid DC-8 has no airframe life restriction, it will fly without hydraulics (automatic manual reversion), and from a science platform standpoint it will fly 12.5 hours with ~4.0 hours of that being at 1500' AGL/MSL, plus reserves. It will also slow to low speed buffet at optimum altitude or above and then accelerate back to M.80 (sometimes a science requirement).

What also might be interesting for some who don't know about the DC-8, it will dump fuel without electrics, as long as there is gravity, that is.

From a freighter standpoint the -73 delivers what the 707 could only promise. BTW...fly through weather nasty enough to block the pitot tubes? The autopilot doesn't trip off. Only zero airspeed indication for awhile. If anything, the Achilles' heel is that it has no wheelwell fire detection.

Frankly, from an engineering and performance perspective, with four-engine redundancy, there is no better science platform, particularly for surveying the ice low level over Antarctica four plus hours from the nearest airport in South America with 35 scientists and crew onboard. Not bad for a 1958 design. Of course, I'm an admittedly biased pilot who greatly appreciates what the airplane provides and not an engineer. Its an airplane that asks you to be a pilot and gives honest, real-time feedback about your attempts toward that end. Maybe that's what I appreciate about the old-school machine. And remember that it did go supersonic without any structural issues realized. From a pilot's standpoint, all of the above is the kind of conservative, common sense engineering I like.

Apologies for the off-topic, but aircraft robustness and capability is somewhat relevant to the discussion.

[A30yoyo]

My understanding was that Douglas originally selected an aerofoil section for the DC-8 which was too draggy and had to do some leading edge modifications to restore projected performance (the Supersonic dive may have been a planned publicity move related to the mods?) There were more mods to the wings and engine pods/pylons in the -62/-63 models
Early in the 707s career Pan Am had one go into a dive over the Atlantic which may have passed Mach 1 before recovery around 6,000 ft

DC-8 youtubes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bvK6enoQDg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9xlNPp3UR0

[yrvld]

A little thread drift, still about a Boeing though..
I think it has been covered here some years ago, in the meantime the investigation is published:

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Boeing%20737-73V,%20G-EZJK%2009-10.pdf

B737-700 @ 447Kts somewhere btw FL100 and 5000 feet, on a manual reversion, company test flight.

The report states:

" He then rolled the wings level and attempted to arrest the rate of descent. This had peaked at 20,000 ft/min with the aircraft pitched 30° nose-down after the aircraft had been rolled to the left. The control forces remained high but the commander considered this to be due to the aircraft’s speed, which he observed at a maximum of 447 kt."

And then:

"The aircraft was inspected after landing for damage or deformation in accordance with AMM task 05-51-04 titled ‘severe or unusual turbulence, stall, or speeds more than design limits – maintenance practices (conditional inspection)’. No evidence of damage or deformation of the structure was found."

Makes for interesting reading.

[frieghtdog2000]

At the 50 year reunion of the VC10 at Brooklands a continuous loop video of this flypast was shown (Capt Tony Smith in Command). Included all the grass cuttings getting airborne as they had manicured the aerodrome previously. Awesome. :ok: Wouldn't happen to-day.

[jimjim1]

cockney steve mentioned
Either side of neutral? IE 21.3 * left and the same right, total oscillation excursion =42.6 ?

Ah! So 21.3 degrees half amplitude then. Now I understand. But not the terminology:-)

[bubbers44]

I trusted the B757 more than any other of 8 jets I flew. It had performance, systems were simple, automation was good, you could hand fly it easily and it looked like if you ever had to ditch it it looked like a pontoon boat. If I ditched in the Carribean it looked like it would float for days. Just fire up the APU and wait for the rescue boat. It was just lacking fishing poles and lures.
It would fly with almost everything inop.

[bubbers44]

Flying it into TGU over 600 times with not one problem made me a believer in the B757. Doing it in the B727 as I did was marginal. I loved that airplane. The FA's didn't because of the single isle but we loved it. You had to be really stupid to hurt yourself in the 757. Cali was an example of that. Cali was an easy airport to land at but they screwed up.

I don't want to say anything bad about them but I was flying that night and landing at Panama City and there was no moon so they could not see their error turning east into the hills. The R they pushed sent them to Bogota, not Cali. Neither pilot was aware of the error in navigation. Unfortunately there was a mountain there.

[con-pilot]

Flying it into TGU over 600 times with not one problem made me a believer in the B757. Doing it in the B727 as I did was marginal.

I presume that you were flying -200s? We only flew the -100s there and we always came out empty, except for the cabin guards, less than 20 folks. So we never had a problem.

I could see where you would be marginal with a max load for conditions in a 200.

Always wanted to fly a 757 and at one time it looked like we would get a long range version of the 757, but had an Administration change* and that idea was killed.



* No ideas from a previous Administration is a good idea for the new Administration in Washington when a different Party takes over. Sometimes even when it is the same party.

[er340790]

Didn't that China Airlines 747SP get close to, or exceed, Mach 1 during its upset, they just didn't have the DFDR data to prove it?


Yup... and it never flew straight thereafter ever again.

It pitched up in CYQT a few years ago, fleeing creditors apparently, as a huge Biz-Jet entitled Global Peace Ambassadors, and sat on the apron for months. Then it disappeared suddenly and flew right across the US under VFR (honest!) to somewhere in Mexico for overhaul.

Interesting.

[DaveReidUK]

It pitched up in CYQT a few years ago, fleeing creditors apparently, as a huge Biz-Jet entitled Global Peace Ambassadors, and sat on the apron for months. Then it disappeared suddenly and flew right across the US under VFR (honest!) to somewhere in Mexico for overhaul.Tijuana, it's still there:

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/small/4/2/9/2294924.jpg

[captplaystation]

yrvld,

scarily gash . . . . . of course, we "British" are best :rolleyes:

So many deviations/omissions /general misconceptions that it beggars belief, I can only assume the Commander was selected courtesy of his "hand-shake" :hmm: rather than his inherent piloting/technical abilities.

Very "easy" / Very "British".

[bubbers44]

con-pilot, We watched your 727 land many times at TGU. You were flying illegals back so went out of there with a light load. I flew the last month in a 727 100 but we could only take off or land to the north. We had nose wheel brakes on the 100 so guess that is why we used it. The 757 could land either way depending on weight. I loved that airport because you didn't have to follow our airline's lame rules designed for the dumbest pilot on the airline to not screw up. It was a lot of fun and very safe if you followed the rules. Nice to know you enjoyed it too.

[Sorry Dog]

"Ah the DC 8. They don't make planes like that anymore!"

As much as I like Boeing stuff, the 8 is my favorite. When the US guvmint gets their act together, checkout www.nasa.gov/dc-8. It will probably be the only DC-8 flying in the US sometime next year, and it is really more of a flying science lab than an airliner. Great history, too. Alitalia and Braniff as a -62, then the last Cammacorp kit converting it to a -72 with NASA.

Unless somebody is playing a joke, I believe that may already be flying. If your ever bored on flightaware take a look at KEFD as I've noticed a few days with the DC8 doing a tour of the lower midwest with a U2 tagging along at 60 something FL's ....or some T38 guys busting mach for minute or two on decent from the Gulf := (or at least the flightawares' numbers say :rolleyes:) )

[FullWings]

Just read the AAIB report on the 737 flight test that went wrong.

A real gem in there:
The commander then said "ARE THEY ALL BACK ON – PUT ALL THE [unintelligible] CONTROLS BACK ON"

"Unintelligible", yeah, right! :D

[DozyWannabe]

Yup... and it never flew straight thereafter ever again.

Wiki has it that - following repairs - the aircraft continued in service with Dynasty for a further 12 years.

So many deviations/omissions /general misconceptions that it beggars belief, I can only assume the Commander was selected courtesy of his "hand-shake" :hmm: rather than his inherent piloting/technical abilities.

A little harsh, I feel - after all he and his crew did get it back on the ground with no injury to occupants, or - apparently - the airframe. Thinking one knows better than "the book" is certainly not specific to pilots from the UK, that's for certain! In any case, I suspect that the influence of the funny-handshake brigade went out of fashion around the same time as bell-bottoms and platform boots for men!

Why the bitterness?

[con-pilot]

We had nose wheel brakes on the 100 so guess that is why we used it.

Our's had been removed, by the time we recieved the 100s. I don't think our 200 ever had nose wheel brakes. OK456 would probably know.

OK465

Just my opinion, but I always thought taking the fully loaded -200 in and out of Greenbrier was the USMS operation that required the most skill, alertness and precision and actually did border on marginal at times.

Your opinion is dead on. I hated taking the 200 into Greenbrier. But that is/was/I don't know any more, the longest runway* in West Virginia when I was with the USMS and that is why we used it. In the 100s it was no problem. I always greased on the 100s there, but the in 200, my landings there were more like controlled crashes.

American Airlines started a regular run into Greenbrier for a while in 200s, but stopped I think. Why I don't know, but after flying our 200 in and out of there I think I can figure out why. Personally I don't think we should have ever used to 200 at Greenbrier.

And they are still talking about getting 757s are they, well I wish them the best of luck. I'm sure that by now there are some worn out, 20 to 30 year old, junky 757s that they can get. As those where the only type of aircraft that we could get when I was there. The 800s came after I left.

One more question if you don't mind, I've not seen any of the guys lately, is it true they are parking the MD-80s and going back to 737s? I heard that lately, but it was just a rumor.




*Well, that was what I was told by the powers to be anyway.

[dash6]

Back to the thread... Was'nt there a report some years back of a 757 possibly Icelandic? Exceeding design limits in a loss of control.Can anyone find that one?

[con-pilot]

(Apologies for thread drift)

Same here and thank you OK456.