80-100 hours a month in FL?

[Gin Slinger]

Does 80-100 hours a month as a CFI in Florida sound a reasonable average?

Lets exclude the rain period from the figures.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Gin Slinger,

80 to 100 is more than reasonable. Right now my instructors are averaging over 80 hours of instruction given per two week pay period. My instructors are paid the same rate for flight instruction and ground instruction, so I do not know their exact hours flight hours. The ratio is around 75% flight instruction/25% ground instruction, so they are logging greater than 100 hours per month of flight instruction.

Rain is not an issue. There is plenty of flying weather year round in Florida.

Happy Flying,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[BEagle]

Makes you wonder quite what quality of instruction the poor student getting hour no 80 must be getting......

Barking!

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

BEagle,

Not sure what you mean? If you are worried about the instructor being too tired to teach, remember the weather allows flying just about every day of the year with very little down time.

I have always found it more fatiguing sitting around waiting for the weather to improve then working for the same amount of time. An instructor that is teaching the students full time with full schedules makes the instructor sharper and better qualified due to the rules of recency and repetition.

Take Care,

Richard

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Hey Richard:

Usually I agree with your posts.

However in this case maybe you typed before clearly thinking this one out??

You left yourself wide open for someone who is " truly sharp " to question the retention time of any instructor that depends on the so called " Rules of Recency and Repetition. " by having to fly 100 hours a month.

Hell if they have to fly 100 hours a month or they forget or get rusty, they must have had lobotomys.:D :D :D

Just some humour to lighten up your day.;) ;)

Cat Driver:

....................
:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

[BEagle]

80 hours in 2 weeks? Assuming that they work 5 out of 7 days, that's 8 hours of instruction per day. Do they get lunch or any other breaks - if they do then that's probably a minimum of 9 hours at work every day.... Sorry, but I reckon that no matter how good you are, that will be excessively fatiguing.

[StrateandLevel]

An instructor for JAA licences is limited by Article 74 to a

maximum of 100 hours in 28 days or 900 hours in 12 months!

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Chuck,

So true. I figure I will get pummeled for that one.

BEagle,

The instructors work 6 days a week. Also, it is 80 hours of instruction given not just flight instruction. Under FAA rules:

§ 61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.

A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the following limitations:

(a) Hours of training. In any 24-consecutive-hour period, a flight instructor may not conduct more than 8 hours of flight training.

I will never forget the first flight instructor I ever hired. It was back in 1994. We came to me fresh out of school and had about 350 hours. This was back when NAC only offered FAA licences. He was so motivated, he instructed for 2 years and when he left he had 3,500 hours. I remember a 6 month stretch where he did not take a day off. He is currently flying for American Airlines and last I heard was upgrading from a plumber on the 727's to the right seat. When he left had a 95% first time pass rate and a Gold Seal Instructor's Rating.

The real beauty of working in Florida is when you time out for teaching JAR, you can still teach FAA. Gin Slinger did not speicfy teaching JAA or FAA in the U.S.A., just if it is reasonable to teach in Florida 80 - 100 hours of Flight Instruction as a CFI (implying FAA since JAA would be a QFI) in a month. The answer is YES.

Take Care,

Richard

[BEagle]

Sorry - but it still sound like slave labour. Or labor. I wonder whether the CAA knew that 'when you time out for JAA, you can still teach FAA' was a culture which applied at your organisation when they considered your approval to conduct JAA training in a non-member state?

Working flat out at the rate you suggest - not just the flight instruction time - for 6 days every week is NOT something that anyone should be proud of.

100 hours in 28 days is around 3.6 hours per day. If an FI (by the way, 'Q'FI is NOT a JAR term, it is a UK military term), gives a 20 min pre-flight brief, 10 minutes to get the ac started, an hour in the air, 10 minutes to walk in and 20 min for the debrief, that's 2 hours instruction time per student. So if you start at 0800, and do that pattern twice, then have an hour's break from 1200-1300, you can then do the same thing in the afternoon, finishing at 1700, until you reach your 100 hours in 28 days (that's consecutive, not 'working days', by the way). Then you stop until you are allowed to teach under JAR rules again.

But if you're encouraging people to work long hours in excess of the JAR rules, then it's hardly surprising that your pirices are lower than prices in the UK......

I will draw the attention of a CAA colleague to this thread.

[Wrong Stuff]

Having been on the receiving end of instruction both at Naples and at three UK schools over the years I'd have no hesitation saying the Naples lot were the happiest and most motivated of any of them. Down the pub the only instructor to complain was the one who'd been furloughed from the airlines post 9/11 and that was born of pure frustration at his career taking a backwards turn. At work he still put his all into it.

The unhappiest instructors I've known in the UK have been the ones doing the least hours not the most.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

BEagle,

Ok, I think we are going around in circles. Take a JAA/FAA instructor in Florida. They are allowed in 12 months to instruct 900 hours under JAR. If they were to max out each time he could instruct 100 hours every 28 days. So 900 divided by 100 is 9. 9 times 28 is 252. 365 minus 252 is 113. So if the JAA instructor were to max out in 252 days, that still leaves 113 days they cannot work under JAR. They could stop teaching JAR at that time and go on to teach FAA. Then they are limited to 8 hours per day teaching FAA ratings for the rest of their time. By then the instructor would have more than enough time to be marketable in the U.K. From Gin Slinger's original post I did not get the impression it was a permanent position in the U.S.A. that was being sought.

As for "Slave Labour" as you put it, I agree with you 100%. NAC does not make any money off of the instructors. The reason is the market will only allow so much to be charged for instruction. It barely covers the salary of the instructor.

Yesterday I had a visit from one of my previous instructors, who is now flying four engine jets for Northwest. He instructed at NAC when we were an FAA only school. His visit reminded me of the program we implemented during his employ at NAC. The program was setup under the premise that instructors are professionals and should be paid according to their experience. We set up four tiers for instruction. The students could choose which level of instructor experience they wanted. It went from a low time instructor all the way to a gold seal instructor. After six months I found that when the instructor would reach the level of experience to move to the next pay level they would not tell me. I thought it was odd and I held an instructor meeting just to discuss that issue. What came out was that they did not want to keep advancing in pay scales (which meant student would pay more for the instructor's time) since the more experienced instructors were not getting much work. The students when given the option between instructors would take the instructor which cost less.

As slaves I believe they do not get what the deserve pay wise as professionals. But also as slaves, they get to make their own schedule and work at their own pace. There is only one restriction I put on them. They must operate within the rules at all times.

Should you want to check up on the status of the school, please contact Linda Hosier or Mike Grierson at the CAA. Also, you are welcome to come visit the school and talk to the instructors. Please stop in unannounced should you wish.

Take Care,

Richard

[Gin Slinger]

Just revisited this thread. Thanks for all the contributions, some better tempered than others!

I make no bones about it, my motivation is to build hours, however, I see PPL instructing as part and parcel of the route to a well-paid airline job. As long as I can afford a roof over my head and some beer money, I'll be contented.

I approach instructing with tremendous enthusiasm. I will not be perfect, and my efforts probably won't match those who have seen 100's of students through their training, however, I'm positive I'll soon get into the swing of things.

As a UK citizen, part of the attraction of flying in the US is the dynamism of GA compared to the UK. You don't have to spend weeks on end to get a few hours, hanging around some grotty old portacabin or rotting WWII bunker, listening to Ret. Sdn Ldr Handlebarmustache eulogise about the days of the sextant and explain why he believes that GPS is far inferior.

Fingers crossed for that J1 visa!

[Sdn Ldr Handlebar]

I say old chap......that's a little below the belt......those of us that flew Wellies wouldn't leave home without a sextant.....wouldn't catch me relying on some confounded new fangled contraption like GPS...never I say never.

Sqd Ldr Handlebar ret.

[Facts Not Fiction Pls]

Touche!!!

[White_Arc]

Hahaha

BEagle, before you start saying how tired CFI's become I think you should take up the offer and go to this school unannounced and find out what the CFI's really think and how they feel.
Let me just say, being in this climate does not make you feel as tired as it does in the UK...Sweat yes, tired no..
The only people I have seen getting tired over here is the students, and I am not talking about the flight school mentioned...
It does sound from what Naples Air Center said and notice the spelling of centre, that the Instructors set up their own time with their students and that they are not forced into flying, it is totally down to them. I like that idea that way you can have your cake and eat it (regarding breaks for lunch)...

Happy Flying

White Arc

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Sqdrn ldr:

Don't forget you need your pencil with the eraser on top for doing any math.

I shure as hell wouldnt trust those newfangled calculator thingies.:D :D

And oh, by the way when I used the sextant I ate lots of carrots to give me really good vision to see through clouds so I could always get my fixes.:D :D

Cat Driver:

..................
:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

[Wyatt Anderson]

Haven't logged in here for a long time - too busy flying :-)
I must say, people do like to make a meal of these topics don't they...?

Anyway, just to add my quota, I passed my JAR PPL at Naples. The atmosphere was always great and everyone was totally professional. Just like every other organisation they are in business to make money but .....

I am a professional myself and know the difference between a cowboy outfit - of which I have seen a few - and a well-run organisation with a good degree of staff satisfaction - as well as students.

By the nature of this thread, it seams to me that a good measure would be something statistical, student pass rate, etc and a proper comparison. I mean, you are not going to get a good pass rate if the instructors are all working themselves into the ground, etc. Any figures....?

Keep up the good work Nikki

[BEagle]

Richard - thanks for your reply. I've no doubt that your organisation is running happily, but - and it's a big but - the effects of fatigue should not be underestimated. For instructors cheerfully to work all the hours they can towards the great god of hours TT is something which needs some constraints - and the JAR 100 hours in the last rolling 28 days surely refers to any flight instruction, not just flight instruction for JAR-FCL purposes. Otherwise your FAA/JAR instructor could have flown 8 x 28 = 224 hours under FAA rules of which 100 would be 'JAR' and 124 FAA? Clearly that is totally against the spirit of the poorly-defined JAR - or did they assume that no-one could think that their regulation could be interpreted in any other way?

Thanks for your kind offer - I doubt whether I'll be able to find the time, but your generosity is much appreciated.



....I've also come across GPS-luddites who refuse to accept how useful a GPS is! Which is why all my ac have panel-mounted GPS which we teach people to use safely. I'm not a fan of 'moving map' GPS as they can encourage a bit too much head-in time; I prefer to have the navigation data fields set to GS, DTK, ETA and a mini CDI - because that will back up 'traditional' PLOG calculations!

....Sqn Ldr Handlebar-Moustache has never used anything as modern as a pencil with an eraser on the top - he still uses a slate and chalk and has his petrol bowsers hauled by horse!

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

BEagle,

You are absolutely correct, you cannot underestimate fatigue. I have not found it to be a problem among pilots. Pilots know their limits and stop when they reach it. The only people I know that continually under estimate fatigue are the airline dispatchers. They will always try to push you into one more flight, but that is a story for another forum at another time.

I noticed you are an Instructor and an Examiner. I was wondering in your experience, have you seen the quality of the students you examine diminish as the instructor's training load increases? If so, at what point does it go down?

I am guessing (educated guess) that the 100 hour limit is just like saying "everyone will from now on wear a medium size shirt". For some, the 100 hour limit is too high, for others, it is too low, and for a few, its just right.

Chuck Ellsworth's signature really hits the nail on the head.

The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Take Care,

Richard

[Sdn Ldr Handlebar]

Chuck

Good man.........preferrence dictates a little red and black HB with a pink rubber on top.....sorry erasor.......forgetting you're colonial types.....

I remember one dark night over Germany.........flack was vicious......damn stuff was coming at us like snow........all of a sudden old yankee delta nine zero lurches to port........well ****** me if we hadn't taken a small (but not insignificant) piece of flack in number 1 tank.........well, in a flash out came my trusty HB and I had that bally hole plugged before you could say Jack Robinson........

I was just congratulating myself when I realised that we were at 12,000ft......and I was sat on the port wing........bally freezing........my little HB had an icicle on the end........and my little pink rubber had gone all limp........well what did I do I hear you ask in amazement........well, stiff upper lip and all that........besides which I was too bally drunk to care...

Chuck my man......those were the days......balsa wood and papier mache.......fix it with an HB and a bit of your good old American bubble gum........not like todays modern machine.........wouldn't catch me in a new fangled jet.......HB and bubble gum wont do you any good if you catch some flak at 12,000

Well must go......chin chin

Sdn Ldr Handlebar

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Thank you Richard:

Not only do I use it as a sign off here, it is the very last advice I give all the pilots that I teach the art of flying to.

Unfortunately far to many pilots forget this very simple admonition and allow themselves to say yes,...... and die.

By the way it has been decades since I taught flying at the ab-initio level.

The only reason I still instruct is I am one of the very few left over from the days of the wooden ships and the iron men. :D :D

So I enjoy passing on some of the skills I have learned to those who must take over from my generation.

Cat Driver:

................
:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

[Flyingspaniard]

Just wondered as a half spanish/half Canadian/half brit, with a JAA FI rating what I would need to be able to instruct in the US/Canada. I have Canadian citizenship.

Can I instruct JAA students without an FAA FI ticket. If not whats involved in getting one. Chuck, does Air Transport Canada require another exam to get a Canadian license?

Thanking you in advance.:D

[B2N2]

Once did 135 hrs (flying time!) in one month.First week 5 hrs,130 hrs in the rem. 3 weeks.All of the students passed though..
:D

[Keef]

As one who recently did an IR at Naples Air Center, I have to say I found the instructors cheerful, motivated, and excellent. They chatted with students, joked, and taught superbly. The rapport between students and instructors is excellent.

Compared with other places in the US where I have tried to learn, something is right at NAC.

My instructor was 1:1 with me for most of the time. We did 3 to 4 hours a day flying, and 2 to 3 hours a day groundschool. I was tired at the end of it, but he seemed pretty chirpy.

I have no connection with NAC except as a happy punter.

[Established Localiser]

I was out in Naples for 3 and a bit weeks in Oct 99 , & I have got to say having got to know the instructors reasonably well during this time ,they never complained & did nothing but praise NAC.

I felt they did work long hours but it did'nt seem to bother them nor did they seem stressed at all.

Maybe it suits everyone concerned , Business does well , satisfied customers & Instructor gets his hours in.

I can't complain.:)

[clear prop!!!]

I'm looking at a log book with 7 hrs in it for last week due to crap weather etc.!!!

If anyone can fix me up with 100hrs a month in the sun...then I'm your man!!!:)

Or should I say ..I'm your man http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/cool.gif

[approachto19]

Beagle just read this post and am interested to see if you have an answer for Richard... that is your experience with fatigue etc with instructors.

It would be interesting to have some real life experiences and effects of instructor fatigueposted , so far we havent heard from anyone posting about any problems with it.

[minus273]

On the comments made about fatigue, I feel much better after a day where I log between 5-7 hours than one in which I log 1.5.

The main reason for this is that to me it is far more taxing being in my cubicle, being pestered by admin people (who are not able to do my job) asking why I am not flying!

I would prefer to be flying 8hrs a day rather than sitting in my cubicle, that was one of the main reasons that I got into this job as my personality does not suit that type of work.

So to the people who say that it is better to only work 3 hours a day and sit in the office for the other 5 that is great, but to me that is the most painful working day that I could have. Would prefer to be at work 12 and fly 8.

Once again that is my 2 cents worth, and people are free to disagree!

[hdaae]

Im a CFI in California, and work in an abnitio trainingprogram were we quite often push 10-14 hours a day 5-7 days a week for nine months straight.
Does the students suffer in the program?
From what ive seen, no, not to a big extent.
The ones that suffers are the instructors from a sosial aspect and the inability to expand on current knowledge because there isnt enough time to both work, sleep AND read in 24 hours.
But the passrate is very good in this school and I would without any hesitation let my students fly with my girlfriend while I were left at the ground (which is close to the highest praise I would think).

But as I said...It hinders the CFI's time to refine his skills on the theoretical level. Ive noticed lately that my own and others flightskills are very good, but the booksmarts are suffering a little.