cut up licence or not?

[Pilot.Lyons]

Hi all

I have received my ppl conversion to easa and it came in an envelope with a blue folder with numerous sleeves and then printed on an a4 piece of paper my licence.

The licence pages were numbered and just so happened to be the same size pages as the sleeves.

So one naturally cuts the pages to fit the wallet sleeves.

Whilst browsing i have seen some people saying its no
longer valid??

Is this true? If so why did it not contain a note stating so? It certainly looked as though cutting it to fit would be the next course of action.
I just though they couldn't be bothered to do it!

If its the case that its invalidated would i be charged an extortionate fee to have it re issued? (Please say no)

[S-Works]

Cutting it up invalidates it. It is designed to fold up and fit in a single plastic pocket. As you add more bits of paper they all fold up and fit in the subsequent pages.

[Odai]

According to the CAA/EASA, cutting it up does indeed invalidate it and you would need to pay to get a replacement, not sure what the fee is.

Mine did also come with a little card in the front pocket with a note saying not to cut up the license - didn't you get anything similar?

[mad_jock]

There is instructions on the CAA site about not cutting it up.

And if you tell them you have yes they will charge you money for a replacement.

Change of address is still currently free I believe ;)

[Pilot.Lyons]

Thanks for the replies.

I didnt get any note/card advising not to cut it up.

Just feel a bit robbed. I dont have time to cross reference my moves with a caa website search so think they could have just made it clearer.

Thanks mad jock im going to move soon ;)

[pudoc]

I had no card either. :/ Didn't find out my license was invalid until during my type rating. Had to get a new one. :(

[7AC]

I seem to recall in my Air Law days that any mutilation or alteration of any aviation licencing
document was illegal and invalidating.
Must be getting old!

[Pilot.Lyons]

Well its not really mutilation if i am simply dividing the numbered pages on a guillotine to fit the sleeves in the wallet they provided me with.
Yes i understand what was said previously about they sleeves are designed to be used for each document folded but why make the sleeves and pages the same size?
Coincidence or a deliberate way of making more money by setting people up to fail?
Pudoc how much did it cost for another?

[mad_jock]

Nope it all comes down to the fact the CAA didn't want to buy a new printer which the rest of Europe has done.

Every where else their licenses are the perfect size to fit the EASA wallets.

There licenses are printed on decent paper as well and concertina up nicely and fit.

Not for us the CAA wants to use a standard A4 laser printer so all the pilots have to put up with a pain in the backside bit of A4 paper which doesn't fit that's printed on thin paper.

[Pilot.Lyons]

Typical.

I thinks its ridiculous... I am so angry. Not sure if its because i fell for the trap.

I would like someone from the caa to come chat about it on here. Hear it from the inside

[mad_jock]

Not a chance in hell would they go anywhere and justify what they do unless pulled in front of a House of Parliament committee.

The will trump up some rubbish about data protection or security prevents them for doing anything or saying anything.

[Pilot.Lyons]

Not a chance in hell would they go anywhere and justify what they do unless pulled in front of a House of Parliament committee.

The will trump up some rubbish about data protection or security prevents them for doing anything or saying anything.

Oh yes.... Why cant anything just be simple.

Life's to short

[GGT]

Couldn't make this up, could you???

[Fostex]

Don't get the obsession some have with their licence.

Mine sits in my flight bag until I need to get something re-val'ed or a man from the CAA asks to see it.

I don't care what it looks like. A plastic card like the FAA one would suit me much better, takes up less real estate!

[DB6]

If you have a colour photocopier just put all the bits back together and photocopy it. Who'll know the difference?
My intention when I get an EASA licence is to photocopy it and cut up the copy for the little folder, then crumple up the original and stuff it in a old condom for when someone gets on their high horse. What a load of b0ll0cks.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Surely you never received it and it must have been lost, with shed loads of other stuff, in the Post? Enquire when you might be likely receive it.

Bad form? Yes but when playing by the rules has bitten one in the bum, time and time again, it's nice to break even.

[AndoniP]

Surely you never received it and it must have been lost, with shed loads of other stuff, in the Post?

Not if you ticked the recorded delivery box on the form, it will have been sent my Special Delivery so they have proof that it's been delivered.

For us old school lot who had paper driving licences I assume folding was the easier option anyway ;)

[S-Works]

DB6

Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Age: 50
Posts: 1,203
If you have a colour photocopier just put all the bits back together and photocopy it. Who'll know the difference?
My intention when I get an EASA licence is to photocopy it and cut up the copy for the little folder, then crumple up the original and stuff it in a old condom for when someone gets on their high horse. What a load of b0ll0cks.

I assume you photocopy your money as well?

What is the problem, it is designed to go folded into a single page. The medical also folds into the same size. The extra ratings pages also fit. My various examiner pages fit. So that most of the pages used.

The UK are the only ones that supply a folder. Every other CAA I deal with either gives a single clear pocket that holds it folded or nothing at all.

EASA also do not suggest the licence is cut. In fact they state you must observe the local requirement. They do state that defacing the licence invalidates it......

[fujii]

Ours are perforated so they separate easily for the pockets.

[dubbleyew eight]

not only are ours perforated to make separating them easier but each separated page is numbered you get the order right in the wallets.

spare wallets in mine are used for photos.

do you poms still have the rack? if not you should flog some sense into those CAA idiots.

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Guys,

I haven't flown for about five years and have not had to face the latest EASA/CAA nonsenses, so do please forgive me if I am speaking nonsense out of ignorance of current conditions.

I would be inclined to argue that the licence is what is printed on the paper, not the paper itself; (unless some special paper has been used or there is a special watermark in the paper).

So as long as the image printed on the paper is not cut, then removing excess paper from around the image, in order to aid convenience of carriage, should be an irrelevance to the validity of the licence.

Indeed by making the licence less bulky and more portable it thus aids conformance with the law by making it more likely that the licence holder will carry his/her licence with him/her rather than leaving it at home.

I would suggest that this argument should be put to the CAA, (along with mention of the fact that licences issued by other EU states are made to fit their envelopes).

If the CAA argue otherwise, then use the complaints procedure that every civil service operates to complain. If that does not work, then complain to the Parliamentary Ombudsman. The more people who complain, and complain effectively, the better.

Remember that all letters of complaint should be sent either by recorded delivery or by registered mail and a copy kept in a file. Emails are not as effective as evidence and never, never, never deal with the b*gg**s over the telephone. People in call centres and civil servants on the 'phone will lie their heads off over the 'phone because telephone calls are so easily deniable.

Above all, don't give up. Keep at 'em and at 'em and at 'em. (Believe me I speak from experience).

Good luck guys,

BP.

[PA28181]

Does the rest of the world who may require to see you licence know of this absurdity? If I want to rent in the US for example will I be refused on the grounds my licence is invalid? I doubt it.

Surely the licence that is a privilege granted to us by the CAA is not a paper copy, It is held in their highly secure Data Protected system, where that is the one and only true record of licence issue. If I can just ring them up and ask for another copy of the licence irrespective of the cost of replacement, that itself shows how ridiculous this is. Who has the authority to ground me on a ramp check outside the UK (I know an authorised person or Constable has the right in the UK to ask for my licence?) if they see fit.

[mad_jock]

This rubbish dates back to the JAR licenses and I am pretty sure its more than likely the same person which is driving it this time.

With the JAR license they started to discover that everyone and I mean everyone was cutting them up to fit in the holder.

This obviously annoyed someone with zero common sense and zero experience using the things live in a flying environment.

They then tried to get everyone to get a new license which was uncut stating that it was invalid and you would get grounded in Europe if you had an inspection. They even contacted some authorities in Europe and told them that it was invalid if cut.

This was basically ignored by the inspectors, the pilots and the examiners. The inspectors could see the reason why you have done it and the examiners had cut there own ones up as well.

There was a bit of a bun fight for 6-9 months and then someone stepped in and the matter was dropped.

It looks like the side that didn't like the cutting up of licenses have made sure this time that its in the documentation to not cut it up even though this goes against common sense as previously.

The printers that print the rest of Europe style licenses cost in the region of 600 euros. And the card that they use for the licenses will be more expensive than the CAA paper or maybe not as they will have put a heap of "security" type stuff through it. But its more probably to do with the fact that the European style licenses aren't easy to photo copy or for that matter file.

So I suspect we are all suffering because of one or two pig headed individuals on the admin side of things who want nice tidy files, who don't want to buy a couple of printers, and do not like the idea of people cutting up official paper work.

The fact that all UK pilots have put up with the results is not a matter of any concern to them.

[Katamarino]

It is astonishing that the licence is still printed on a sheet of paper at all.

[mad_jock]

or that it doesn't have a picture on it.

I do know of a pilot that when realising they had a SAFA check they legged it across the apron to a company plane took there mates license and legged it back. Got through the inspection then returned it afterwards.

No findings, plane was released to go flying and everyone was none the wiser apart from the Captain who was none to chuffed.

[powerless]

No photo on an FAA plastic card licence either. Was told I have to have my passport with me as well to be legal.

[Cobalt]

EASA says the licence SHOULD be cut up, into 1/8 A4.

where does it say that?

[Pilot.Lyons]

If i got pulled over by the police (in uk) and they asked for my licence (which i ripped up and burnt for example) i would still be a licensed driver because my records are held on file at the dvla.

So what is the licence? A piece of paper or a qualification held on file for an individual?

If its just a piece of paper then I'm sure people can just make their own and not bother taking a test at all!

Silly tit for tat rubbish.

Still not sure if i should bother asking for another.

Db6 made my morning when i read that hahaha

Why number the pages and make them the size to fit the folder then invalidate it when people cut it to slot the pages in numerical order in it???
If it should be one document then why do this? Just keep it numberless or stick a note in to say"Do not cut"

[PA28181]

As an afterthought, If I did lose my licence down the back of the sofa or other unknown places, and not bothered or had time to get a replacement, am I now grounded and could be prosecuted for flying without a licence if pulled? Or if having cut it up into bits and found I now need a new one having read all this, am I grounded until the post brings me new?


PS: Come on CAA, I know you read all this, stick your heads above the parapet and answer this for once............

[G-F0RC3]

I did wonder when my EASA license arrived whether or not it should be cut up. I decided to check before getting out the scissors. It doesn't seem to make sense to have it folded up into a single plastic sleeve when there are so many sleeves. To examine any of the details on it the license first has to be footered out of the sleeve and unfolded.

Seriously though, why not just make it like a DVLA photocard license on the front page with subsequent sleeves for ratings and whatnot? It'd look neater and deliver the information in a more logical way. When I showed my family my EASA license they were quite underwhelmed at how photoshopped it all seemed to look.

Anyway, it's not the end of the world. Just wish a bit of sense could prevail.

[m.Berger]

Well, I have cut mine up and I am quite unapologetic about it. If some pillock tries to ground me as a result, I'll take them to the Daily Muckraker for a bit of ridicule then invoke the CAA complaints procedure.

[mad_jock]

you go for it mate.

But I reckon your up against some auld coffin dodger of a civil servant.

And your completely right the only way to deal with it is to say sod off take me to court.

As a pro pilot we can't take the risk as there are huge insurance implications but if you do take it that far I will chip in to your legal fees.

[Pilot.Lyons]

For ppl etc there shouldn't be an insurance issue because the pilot is still licensed.

Whether it is in his pocket or in the bin surely the person still has a licence in the eyes of the law??

This rule is bloody pathetic.

Again if your driving licence was shredded and you had an accident the insurance company will request a copy, if you cant find it then they will either ask you to get a new one and forward it or check with dvla. It CANNOT render the vehicle uninsured.

I have never dealt with aviation insurance but it does sound like it would turn out to be a war of words/rules as many things do.

Also if it is an easa licence why do some countries allow it to be cut/torn along perforated line and its still valid but ours is suddenly rendered invalid?

[India Four Two]

A few years ago, Canada went the opposite way, from paper-licence documents (I had three - PPL, GPL and Medical) which conveneniently fitted into my wallet, to a stupid Aviation Document (mini-passport), which I have to carry separately, and is small enough to lose track of.

At least the new one has a picture and contains all the necessary documents in one place. At least, that is what I thought, until on a trip back to Canada, after a dual licence-validation flight at Edmonton Flying Club (nice place by the way), I was told I couldn't fly solo, because I didn't have my radio-licence.

That's not in the Aviation Document, because radio licences are not issued by TC but by IC (Industry Canada)! :ugh:

Sir Humphrey strikes again.

[wb9999]

Again if your driving licence was shredded and you had an accident the insurance company will request a copy, if you cant find it then they will either ask you to get a new one and forward it or check with dvla. It CANNOT render the vehicle uninsured.

The difference is that to drive a car the law does not require you to carry your licence while driving. Whereas EASA regs do require that you carry a valid licence while flying.

If you have an incident while flying and you are not carrying a valid licence (ie one that is not defaced), then an insurance company could use that as an excuse to avoid paying out as the flight is technically not compliant with the law. Insurance companies are always on the look out for any way to avoid paying out, no matter how petty.

[S-Works]

The size of each page is 1/8th of a sheet if A4. However there us nothing that says cut into individual pages. That's just you trying to justify.

I love barrack room lawyers. :p

[Pilot.Lyons]

Again if your driving licence was shredded and you had an accident the insurance company will request a copy, if you cant find it then they will either ask you to get a new one and forward it or check with dvla. It CANNOT render the vehicle uninsured.

The difference is that to drive a car the law does not require you to carry your licence while driving. Whereas EASA regs do require that you carry a valid licence while flying.

If you have an incident while flying and you are not carrying a valid licence (ie one that is not defaced), then an insurance company could use that as an excuse to avoid paying out as the flight is technically not compliant with the law. Insurance companies are always on the look out for any way to avoid paying out, no matter how petty.

Well i think there may be a hidden governing body behind this. The insurance company has a liability they will try to get out of it on a technicality but the vessel is still what is insured so im sure they still have a liability with regards to third parties.

Doesn't help you fix your aircraft mind

I know that car insurers have that very same liability, regardless of what they say to the general public.

The licence DID NOT come with instructions not to cut (it is not defaced) all the clues hinted at cutting it would be the next thing to do given what has been said hundreds of times already.

Why should the uk be any different? Again why make the folders 1/8 of an a4 sheet? Is it a deliberate way of catching people out to get more money from duplicate copies being ordered? If so then a copy is as good as cut one surely?

The rules are what the rules are, I'm not disputing that.

What i am peeved about is the fact that i have been set up to fail and surely thats not right is it?

[Pilot.Lyons]

The size of each page is 1/8th of a sheet if A4. However there us nothing that says cut into individual pages. That's just you trying to justify.

I love barrack room lawyers. :p

Bose I'm not trying to justify it. Why did they give me a folder of the same size and number the pages and NOT mention NOT to cut it?

Is that justification or me asking for a common sense answer?

[dubbleyew eight]

if you arent allowed to cut the english licence are you allowed to fold it into a paper aeroplane?

[Pilot.Lyons]

Theres nothing in it that says dont (subject to my previous post) - Common sense says DO, as demonstrated by the huge numbers of people who have divided up and sequenced the pages, just as we always did (Plus any sensible interpretation of EASAs clause - a page doesnt become a page until it is an individual sheet - Left uncut, its just a box on a page) - I have no doubt any lawyer, barrack room or otherwise, would confirm that dividing the pages is utterly defensible, sensible and fully in accordance with the governing EU/EASA regulation. Infact they would probably go so far as to say that CAAs daft instruction, is in contravention of EASAs regulation, and that any licence left uncut is invalid. :p

I agree completely

[Pilot.Lyons]

if you arent allowed to cut the english licence are you allowed to fold it into a paper aeroplane?

This is true, surely this must be classed as defacing it according to some! :eek:

DONT fold it as common sense may tell you! This must be defacing too!

Is laminating it ok in case i get dust on it? Dont want to deface i and invalidate it.....
Yes my comments are pathetic and childish but so are some of the stupid rules

[Pilot.Lyons]

In England we have a tendency to just "follow the herd" or "go along with it"

If i had enough money to try and fight it i would, but I don't, finding money to rent a plane is hard enough at the moment. (Another reason why I'm annoyed at having to possibly cough up another load of cash for a sophisticated piece of paper.)

[wb9999]

Pilot.Lyons, I have a lot of sympathy for the situation you are in. I obtained my EASA licence the week after they were introduced and I, luckily, saw the document that the CAA produced regarding the transition (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/2330/Webrevisedv%20May12_17%20Sept_EASA_quickguide__v2.pdf). Page 21 advises "Caution. Pilots are not permitted to cut up their licence as its format and layout is stipulated by EASA regulations." Had I not seen that then I would have been inclined to cut mine also.

My licence came with a card with information about the new licence but it doesn't say don't cut it. It does have a link to a CAA web page which then has a link to the above document. But they don't make it easy to find the info.

[Pilot.Lyons]

Thanks wb999 mine was just an empty folder no card at all and the paper licence with receipt for payment.

So annoyed at such a silly rule. With all the important things to worry about in the world and there are silly meaningless rules like this ripping people off.

I may calm down in a month or two ;)

[Pilot.Lyons]

I still have my jar ppl so i guess thats still valid to show an inspector up until january anyway?

Especially as its the same licence number on it

[wb9999]

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it. If you get asked for your licence by a CAA inspector I don't think you're going to get hauled before the courts. He/she might tell you that you shouldn't have done it and to get a replacement, but I would be shocked if anything more happened. At least that's what I would expect from someone using common sense. I don't know how much common sense CAA employees are allowed to use or if they have to do everything by the book.

[RedsBluesGreens]

I actually travelled down to the CAA last year to get my EASA licence. I was handed it in its pure, unfolded state and not once did anyone tell me 'not to cut it up', or to fold it. It is symbolic of an organisation that can't be bothered to be helpful.

[cockney steve]

For goodness sake, the bloody thing is just a L@ser printout.

stick the sections to a sheet of A4 with "pritt-stick" or equivalent, photocopy, erase "cut" lines , if they show, , rinse and repeat for obverse, if that's printed as well.....whole operation should take under 15 minutes and end result will be indistinguishable from the Belgrano original

If you have access to an "all-in -one" you can scan the "pages" into your 'puter, reassemble and then print the saved masterpiece as many times as you like....same end-result, just a different route. a duplex printer will do both sides simultaneously, saving having to manually feed the copy in for the "back2 to be printed.

just do it, , fold and retain , together with the cut -up one.....if a Jobsworth spits their dummy at the cut one, let them rant, then calmly tell them it's a copy and produce the folded "original" that'll really screw their two braincells together. :}

[Pilot.Lyons]

Haha sounds like a plan!

You probably wouldn't believe me if i told you my all in one has decided to tell me my ink is no longer compatible and wont register any at all!

Bad timing eh? But yes ill do that thanks for the tips and advance (and fellow ranters)

I have calmed slightly :)

[S-Works]

Why should the uk be any different? Again why make the folders 1/8 of an a4 sheet? Is it a deliberate way of catching people out to get more money from duplicate copies being ordered? If so then a copy is as good as cut one surely?

How about this for thinking outside the PPL box, each page in the folder holds a folded A4 sheet. If your career grows you can add the extra ratings and the the revalidation pages. In the case of my licence I have 14 ratings to renew which means I am already onto additional revalidation pages. My medical fits in one, my 4 pages of examiner approvals fit into the next 4 so that's 7 of the plastic pages accounted for.

Perhaps giving the CAA a little credit for advance planning might be worth it.

As for the rest of Europe, I am approved as an examiner for 9 countries currently and everyone of them clearly states a cut licence is invalid and I am not permitted to sign it.

[Fuji Abound]

I currently hold licenses for five countries and come to think of it five continents, and that is on the basis that Europe is one country. I have lost count of the ratings.

I have happily divided mine up c'se life is far to short to worry about such trivia, and I am not too bothered because if they don't like one license, there are a few more to fall back on.

[Blues&twos]

Here's a queztion then. You are asked to show your licence by an official. As you unfold it, you accidentally tear it. Are you then not technically allowed to fly your aircraft any further as the licence is now "invalid"? Sounds completely mental.

[A and C]

I personally think that the licence is optimized for deviding into the plastic wallet that it is issued with and common sense would be on your side if you did so.

The problem comes when you are in the bottom end of Europe with your aircraft and the Half witted EASA jobsworth tells you that he is not letting you fly with a license that has been devided in the intended way.

Now cutting up the Licence no mater how sensible it seemed at the time is a major pain in the aft section........... And there as we no is no point in arguing with idiots and drunks!!!

[Desert185]

powerless:

"No photo on an FAA plastic card licence either. Was told I have to have my passport with me as well to be legal."

FAA requires a government issued photo ID to be presented with your FAA license (driver's license is OK). Your mileage in the UK may vary, however.

[hoodie]

The problem comes when you are in the bottom end of Europe with your aircraft and the Half witted EASA jobsworth tells you that he is not letting you fly with a license that has been devided in the intended way.

That's no way to speak of a SkyGod with 14 pages of Ratings and 4 pages of Examiner approvals for 9 countries :}

Actually, perhaps that's a bit harsh. On reflection, I think that if you don't have the MindReader Rating, then perhaps EASA are quite right to crack down hard.

[Tinstaafl]

For about 10-15 years Oz used to have a credit card plastic licence that was damned convenient to carry in one's wallet with one's medical - until some ******** or group of dickheads in CASA decided that wouldn't do anymore :mad: . Before the plastic licence even the old style book licence was smaller and easier to carry than the current clumsy incarnation .

[Pilot.Lyons]

Why should the uk be any different? Again why make the folders 1/8 of an a4 sheet? Is it a deliberate way of catching people out to get more money from duplicate copies being ordered? If so then a copy is as good as cut one surely?

How about this for thinking outside the PPL box, each page in the folder holds a folded A4 sheet. If your career grows you can add the extra ratings and the the revalidation pages. In the case of my licence I have 14 ratings to renew which means I am already onto additional revalidation pages. My medical fits in one, my 4 pages of examiner approvals fit into the next 4 so that's 7 of the plastic pages accounted for.

Then why make it 1/8 of an a4 sheet and not the same size as the previous brown licence folder?

Come on.... Can no one see my bloody point???

[aerobat]

My CAA EASA license came like everyone else's as one sheet. I then sent it to Dublin to exchange for an Irish one and that arrived all cut up and already inserted in the booklet pages.

[BEagle]

Yes, the IAA decided that a licence which was issued in pre-cut sections would be OK, but one which came in a single sheet and was subsequently cut into sections by the licence holder wouldn't be. A rather neat solution.

Other Member States have filed exemptions and have simply produced licences which fit the previous folders - as far as I'm aware it's only the UK CAA which uses a single 16-section double-sided A4 sheet...:hmm: No doubt that's to save cost and is a bureacrat's solution which doesn't help anyone.

Oh - except for skygods, I guess....:bored:

[mad_jock]

Anyone fancy chipping in to buy the CAA a guillotine or a new printer?

I get the feeling the IAA and the CAA are in a pissing contest with each other. Apart form the French which it is pretty much SOP for them to decide to do the opposite of what everyone else does. Its always the IAA that seems to invent stuff to piss everyone off.

The lads that transfer over for Ryanair get a heap of hassles with keeping ratings etc current. Its as if they want them all just to be CPl/ATPL with one 737 rating on there tickets.

I know one lad that had his FI removed because his SEP wasn't valid. He had sent the SEP revalidation form in at the same time. That was bounced for some reason, FI gone and is now being told he has to do a test with an Irish examiner before he can get it back for both SEP and FI. And your not allowed to combine them.

[Duchess_Driver]

I get the feeling the IAA and the CAA are in a pissing contest with each other. Apart form the French which it is pretty much SOP for them to decide to do the opposite of what everyone else does. Its always the IAA that seems to invent stuff to piss everyone off.

The lads that transfer over for Ryanair get a heap of hassles with keeping ratings etc current. Its as if they want them all just to be CPl/ATPL with one 737 rating on there tickets.

I know one lad that had his FI removed because his SEP wasn't valid. He had sent the SEP revalidation form in at the same time. That was bounced for some reason, FI gone and is now being told he has to do a test with an Irish examiner before he can get it back for both SEP and FI. And your not allowed to combine them.

Not my experience of the IAA at all.... (but maybe I am lucky!)

The IAA do indeed issue pages for the ratings, all neatly pre-cut and printed to 1/8th A4 as EASA directed and stowed properly in the palstic wallet. How is that being in a pissing contest? More likely it's the CAA being obstructive.

What needs to be remembered here is that EASA make the rules, it's not (supposed to be) up to each individual authority to decide.

[mad_jock]

More likely it's the CAA being obstructive.

I think they are both as bad as each other. I have heard rumours there has been some transfers between the two and old office politics from previous history crop up.

And there is years of history in both organisations. And the end user is never considered while it all plays out.

It will be if we can give our pilots chopped up licenses so should they. So we won't accept them if they are chopped up by the end user.

They should really have some EASA ombudsman at the HQ so when your local authority are being difficult you can fire it into them and they can sort it out one way or the other.

[riverrock83]

No photo on an FAA plastic card licence either. Was told I have to have my passport with me as well to be legal.

You need a photo ID with you for your EASA one to be legal. That and your medical.
EASA don't say what sort of photo id is required though. Did one of the video rental places not used to to do a photo ID?

Also - you have to carry your licence (and medical, and photo id) on every flight now in EASA land :ugh:

[EddieHeli]

How about this for thinking outside the PPL box, each page in the folder holds a folded A4 sheet. If your career grows you can add the extra ratings and the the revalidation pages. In the case of my licence I have 14 ratings to renew which means I am already onto additional revalidation pages. My medical fits in one, my 4 pages of examiner approvals fit into the next 4 so that's 7 of the plastic pages accounted for.

Perhaps giving the CAA a little credit for advance planning might be worth it.

As for the rest of Europe, I am approved as an examiner for 9 countries currently and everyone of them clearly states a cut licence is invalid and I am not permitted to sign it.


So isn't it all the more amazing that the FAA manage to get it all on a credit card sized bit of plastic and keep the revalidations in your logbook where they belong.
Why are you trying to defend the indefensible?
Some idiot bureaucrat with too much time on their hands and nothing better to do than think up daft ideas made a stupid decision, it happens.
It doesn't mean we have to accept it without moaning, or nothing wrong would ever get put right.

[Pilot.Lyons]

Does anyone know how much it would cost to get another copy by any chance? Don't have time to trawl through the caa jungle

[hoodie]

The Scheme of Charges (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/281PLS.pdf) says £46.00 - see Table 49 on p33.

[mad_jock]

you would have though they would have collected enough by now to buy a new printer or a guillotine at 46 quid a pop.

Then we can all get a proper license like the rest of Europe.

Remember its free to change your address :ok:

[Pilot.Lyons]

Ok thanks... Yes i could move and then move back again in a few months ;)

Thanks for the advice

[cockney steve]

FFS.... just stick the pieces to a backing-paper with Pritt-stick......L@ser photocopy, turn over pieces and copy, then repeat.....erase cut-lines on copy, if required.

I'd defy any NORMAL oik to challenge you that this is not an original......and they don't have the authority to sieze your paper and send it for forensic analysis to see if it's a L@ser-copy of a L@ser print/

keep the pieces in the wallet and claim that THEY are the copy.

A Jobsworth would have to be very bored indeed to pursue the possible violation of an arcane, pointless technical infringement of a rule that has dubious legal standing in the first place.

GO AND FLY Fxx the beaurocrats, play them at their own stupid incompetent games.

[S-Works]

One of the reasons that aviation has become one of the safest forms of transport for the masses is that there is observance of the rules.

As a Commercial Pilot I often find it frustrating but those rules exist for a purpose. If we start ignoring the inconvenient petty ones at what point do we start ignoring the inconvenient safety critical ones?

If you don't like the rules then put together a case and submit a rulemaking change. The system does work, I submitted a rule making change to EASA and it's being agreed and implemented.

I shan't be doing it for the format of the licence as its beyond ludicrous to sit and complain that you don't like the format. It's a piece of paper that serves a purpose, nothing more.

[mad_jock]

One of the reasons that aviation has become one of the safest forms of transport for the masses is that there is observance of the rules.

It isn't though by a long shot. Its only because they use a death per mile travelled as the indicator it appears safer it you do it by sector things arn't as rosy.

[PA28181]

"One of the reasons that aviation has become one of the safest forms of transport for the masses is that there is observance of the rules."

Sorry, but that argument doesn't work in this case. This is purely an admin red-tape bureaucratic nonsense, that has no relevance to safety at all.

"It's a piece of paper that serves a purpose, nothing more."

Absolutely, the paper is irrelevant, and so is dividing it up to fit the supplied wallet.......